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View Full Version : PPT: buyer failed DROS from suspended license. Any legalities I should worry about?


FantasticPlastic
12-23-2012, 2:52 PM
(Edit: since this thread got a bit more popular than expected, I want to make this clear: I don't believe anyone is at fault - CA law just seems so confusing that I want to make sure that nothing unfair happens, ie the gun gets melted. And please, no suggestions that I rip off the buyer - it was clear that he didn't have any idea of the situation or he wouldn't have spent and hour in line with me. I am a horrible conversationalist!)

Hi all, I sold a pistol to a buyer who was unaware that their license was suspended, due to an unpaid traffic ticket. I am concerned because the FFL did not inform me that the DROS failed; the buyer did.

Am I still accountable for this pistol? The FFL said that they legally own it, but in this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-283114.html

It appears that I am STILL the owner (i.e. my *** is responsible) of the pistol. It concerns me that if that's true, that the FFL didn't contact me at all.

I am concerned if the license was suspended for something more complex than an unpaid ticket, and the pistol is considered my responsibility, can the FFL re-sell or gunshow-sell the pistol if the buyer is unable to clear this up in time?

Also, I wasn't even given a receipt; I assumed this was to protect buyer/seller privacy. Should I be asking for one to confirm in court that to my knowledge, the transfer went through, in case the gun somehow falls through the cracks under my "ownership".

Thanks for your time/advice!

winnre
12-23-2012, 3:06 PM
If the buyer cannot claim it, GO GET IT. After 30 days it goes to the furnace.

FantasticPlastic
12-23-2012, 7:02 PM
Thanks for the heads up - I'll give the buyer a reasonable amount of time, but I'll make sure it doesn't "get the oven". (FFL told me on the phone that the FFL owns the gun. "It's ours".)

mrdd
12-23-2012, 7:15 PM
The FFL said that who owns it? Them or the buyer?

Chaos47
12-23-2012, 7:18 PM
Hi all, I sold a pistol to a buyer who was unaware that their license was suspended, due to an unpaid traffic ticket. I am concerned because the FFL did not inform me that the DROS failed; the buyer did.

Am I still accountable for this pistol? The FFL said that they legally own it, but in this thread:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-283114.html

It appears that I am STILL the owner (i.e. my *** is responsible) of the pistol. It concerns me that if that's true, that the FFL didn't contact me at all.

I am concerned if the license was suspended for something more complex than an unpaid ticket, and the pistol is considered my responsibility, can the FFL re-sell or gunshow-sell the pistol if the buyer takes too long to clear this up? Seems like things go untended to longer than they should on their end.

Also, I wasn't even given a receipt; I assumed this was to protect buyer/seller privacy. Should I be asking for one to confirm in court that to my knowledge, the transfer went through, in case the gun somehow falls through the cracks under my "ownership".

Thanks for your time/advice!

Although it is often argued here about who actually "owns it" in these cases since money has changed hands.
The CA PC is quite clear on who is to take possession on it and when.

While it might be signed into the FFL's book they definitively do not "own it".
In the eyes of CA PC it is to be returned back to your possession immediately.

Print out a copy of CA PC 12082.
Go down to the Shop and tell them that the buyer said he was denied and ask what the real status is.
Depending on what they say go from there. If they really say they the shop now "owns it" show them the CA PC.

Do not wait to get it if the DROS has been denied. The law is clear that it should be returned to the seller immediately.
Get it now and if you are a nice guy and willing to wait then let the buyer try to DROS it again when they have their stuff straightened out.
Or give them a refund now and sell it elsewhere.

It may turn out that it has just been delayed... There has been a large rash of delays for a while now

CAL. PEN. CODE § 12082 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/4/s12082)
(a)A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and 12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any additional fees.

In this case they are able to return it to you as the DROS did not fail because it was stolen or anything like that, and it is not a AW (I assume). So it should not be given to the Police to be melted.

bigcalidave
12-23-2012, 7:34 PM
I'm sorry, did you say if you were paid or not? If you were paid, it belongs to the buyer, although they can't take possession. If the ffl has to give it back to you, you should give the money back to the buyer of course, or hold onto it till they straighten out their situation.

If you didn't get paid before dropping it off at the ffl, you are doing something wrong.

FantasticPlastic
12-23-2012, 10:23 PM
Exactly - the confusion is that in my mind the gun is the buyer's since I have the payment. I owe it to the buyer to try again or offer a refund, I am just worried about the FFL telling me it's the FFL's legal responsibility, only to find out that CA says it's mine. FFL said to try out the DROS again once buyer clears up suspended license, and I intend to do that but I'm not sure if CA requires that I pick it up or not. Best way I think is to let the FFL keep it till DROS gets retried. (DROS did definitely fail).

Thing that gets me, apparently it's my responsibility and FFL didn't even tell me about the situation.

SMR510
12-23-2012, 11:42 PM
Exactly - the confusion is that in my mind the gun is the buyer's since I have the payment. I owe it to the buyer to try again or offer a refund, I am just worried about the FFL telling me it's the FFL's legal responsibility, only to find out that CA says it's mine. FFL said to try out the DROS again once buyer clears up suspended license, and I intend to do that but I'm not sure if CA requires that I pick it up or not. Best way I think is to let the FFL keep it till DROS gets retried. (DROS did definitely fail).

Thing that gets me, apparently it's my responsibility and FFL didn't even tell me about the situation.

Just go get it and tell the buyer he has two options:

1. A refund that you negotiate with him, you should be compensated for your time and gas to go down there twice.

2. You will hold the pistol and the money until he gets his act together.

CABilly
12-24-2012, 12:07 AM
I wouldn't let the FFL keep it if it is rightfully still yours.

Go pick it up, and work whatever out with the buyer.

mrdd
12-24-2012, 1:54 AM
Exactly - the confusion is that in my mind the gun is the buyer's since I have the payment. I owe it to the buyer to try again or offer a refund, I am just worried about the FFL telling me it's the FFL's legal responsibility, only to find out that CA says it's mine. FFL said to try out the DROS again once buyer clears up suspended license, and I intend to do that but I'm not sure if CA requires that I pick it up or not. Best way I think is to let the FFL keep it till DROS gets retried. (DROS did definitely fail).

Thing that gets me, apparently it's my responsibility and FFL didn't even tell me about the situation.

The FFL is wrong. The PPT process regulates the transfer of the firearm, not the sale. The sale occurs outside the process and is between you and the buyer. The law states that the FFL must return it to you without delay if the DROS fails. It is then up to you how to handle any refund with the buyer.

If the buyer can get his ID problem resolved quickly, then resubmit the DROS and return the firearm to the FFL. Otherwise, you can refund the buyer and find a new buyer. You are the decision maker about how to proceed, not the FFL.

lilro
12-24-2012, 2:24 AM
Go get your property back, and when the buyer gets everything cleared up, transfer it at a different FFL. I would not be giving business to anyone who steals people's property.

Mel.D
12-24-2012, 9:18 AM
What is the name of the shop? I'd like to avoid them in the future.

HowardW56
12-24-2012, 9:25 AM
Go get your property back, and when the buyer gets everything cleared up, transfer it at a different FFL. I would not be giving business to anyone who steals people's property.

What is the name of the shop? I'd like to avoid them in the future.


He got paid for the gun, not his problem anymore....

Mel.D
12-24-2012, 10:37 AM
He got paid for the gun, not his problem anymore....

You don't see a problem with a shop failing to tell the seller that the DROS failed? and then tell the seller that THEY now legally own the gun?

I certainly have issues with that and would like to know the name of the shop so I don't do business with them.

mrdd
12-24-2012, 10:55 AM
You don't see a problem with a shop failing to tell the seller that the DROS failed? and then tell the seller that THEY now legally own the gun?

I certainly have issues with that and would like to know the name of the shop so I don't do business with them.

Actually, ownership does not change just because the DROS failed. The ownership of the item is outside the PPT process. The law says that since the transferee cannot take possession that the firearm goes back to the transferor.

The PPT process is neutral as to who is the actual owner.

HowardW56
12-24-2012, 1:15 PM
You don't see a problem with a shop failing to tell the seller that the DROS failed? and then tell the seller that THEY now legally own the gun?

I certainly have issues with that and would like to know the name of the shop so I don't do business with them.



Telling the seller about the DROS, nope, once it is in the system, the seller should be out of it. The gun shop never owns the gun, they are holding it. It's the buyer's problem to get the dros issues cleaned up. If he cant, he could ask the seller to take it back and refund, or take whatever pittance the gunshop offers...

gwanghoops
12-24-2012, 1:24 PM
A gun store employee told me about guns they kept for years because the buyer failed to complete the PPT transfer...

mrdd
12-24-2012, 2:08 PM
A gun store employee told me about guns they kept for years because the buyer failed to complete the PPT transfer...

That FFL is breaking the law. They are required to return the firearm to the transferor. If the transferor turns out to be prohibited, the dealer is then required to turn the firearm over to the local LEA.

PC 28050. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, in accordance with this chapter in order to comply with Section 27545.
(b) The seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain possession of that firearm.

(c) The dealer shall then deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with Section 27540.

(d) If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm, the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the waiting period described in Sections 26815 and 27540, return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would constitute a violation of Section 27500, 27505, 27515, 27520, 27525, 27530, or 27535. If the dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or city and county, who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner provided by Sections 18000, 18005, and 34000.

FantasticPlastic
12-24-2012, 3:25 PM
Thank you for your advice - I will go and pick it up, PC28050 in hand.

Do I have to complete a DROS/ background check/10 day waiting, to take it back? I see the parts "forthwith" but also can't imagine how the FFL could determine if I was/wasn't in violation of any of the Sections 27500-35.

I don't really want to say the FFL publicly, but I will answer PMs requesting the name.

ke6guj
12-24-2012, 4:22 PM
Thank you for your advice - I will go and pick it up, PC28050 in hand.

Do I have to complete a DROS/ background check/10 day waiting, to take it back?no, you don't.

I see the parts "forthwith" but also can't imagine how the FFL could determine if I was/wasn't in violation of any of the Sections 27500-35.

CADOJ already did a background check on you when your buyer failed his background check. if you had failed yours as well, then they would have informed the FFL that not only had the buyer failed, but the seller had as well, and to not return it to the seller.

InGrAM
12-24-2012, 6:11 PM
Sorry for the off topic and ignorant question but, how exactly does a DRO's fail due to a suspended licenses? I don't see how the DOJ can keep someone from buying a handgun due to a suspended license....

Does one lose their civil rights due to traffic tickets?

Did the buyer use a suspended license to process the DRO's?

scrubb
12-24-2012, 6:18 PM
Sorry for the off topic and ignorant question but, how exactly does a DRO's fail due to a suspended licenses? I don't see how the DOJ can keep someone from buying a handgun due to a suspended license....

Does one lose their civil rights due to traffic tickets?

Did the buyer use a suspended license to process the DRO's?

Think DUI.

The Gleam
12-24-2012, 6:19 PM
This happened to me once; buyer had a similar issue, nothing criminal. The FFL notified me he would return it to me but wanted some kind of confirmation from the buyer that the deal was nullified; since we were a PPT from a sale on a website, the buyer was cool about it, but I made him meet me at the dealer when I went to pick it up to verify I returned his money and the FFL gave it back to me. (Rettings in Culver City).

ke6guj
12-24-2012, 6:20 PM
Sorry for the off topic and ignorant question but, how exactly does a DRO's fail due to a suspended licenses? I don't see how the DOJ can keep someone from buying a handgun due to a suspended license....

Does one lose their civil rights due to traffic tickets?

Did the buyer use a suspended license to process the DRO's?that is because a suspended DL is not a valid ID.

you can get an ID card from DMV and use that to buy a firearm, even if you have a suspended DL. just hand them the ID card to do the DROS.

HowardW56
12-24-2012, 6:21 PM
Sorry for the off topic and ignorant question but, how exactly does a DRO's fail due to a suspended licenses? I don't see how the DOJ can keep someone from buying a handgun due to a suspended license....

Does one lose their civil rights due to traffic tickets?

Did the buyer use a suspended license to process the DRO's?

The drivers license is invalid for all purposes, including as a form of identification, when it is suspended...

TacticalChihuahua
12-24-2012, 7:54 PM
This happened to me once; buyer had a similar issue, nothing criminal. The FFL notified me he would return it to me but wanted some kind of confirmation from the buyer that the deal was nullified; since we were a PPT from a sale on a website, the buyer was cool about it, but I made him meet me at the dealer when I went to pick it up to verify I returned his money and the FFL gave it back to me. (Rettings in Culver City).

Exact same thing happened to me at Rettings too! Ha

Meplat
12-25-2012, 1:15 PM
Telling the seller about the DROS, nope, once it is in the system, the seller should be out of it. The gun shop never owns the gun, they are holding it. It's the buyer's problem to get the dros issues cleaned up. If he cant, he could ask the seller to take it back and refund, or take whatever pittance the gunshop offers...

Theft by any other name. I’d like to know the dealer’s name also.

HowardW56
12-25-2012, 1:25 PM
Telling the seller about the DROS, nope, once it is in the system, the seller should be out of it. The gun shop never owns the gun, they are holding it. It's the buyer's problem to get the dros issues cleaned up. If he cant, he could ask the seller to take it back and refund, or take whatever pittance the gunshop offers...

Theft by any other name. I’d like to know the dealer’s name also.

How does my statement eqate with theft?

Meplat
12-25-2012, 1:42 PM
How does my statement eqate with theft?

The buyer being forced to take “whatever pittance the gunshop offers” is using a bureaucratic mess to rip off a gun at less than its nominal real value. Underhanded @$$hole move, especially when the law dictates return to the seller. The shop just basically confiscated the gun for its own profit.

Falstaff
12-26-2012, 11:00 AM
My drivers license expired last year and it took 4+ months to get the new one, I was right in the middle of a DROS and they wouldn't accept the temp paper license from dmv. To prevent this ever happening again, on the advice of one of the calguns attorneys, I got a CA ID card in addition to my CA DL. The next DROS I started I provided the the CA ID to the FFL. He immediately stated that it would be a "waste of time and money" to run my DROS if I had a "suspended license". ( most people think in only one dimension, he assumed that because I used a CA ID that I must have a suspended DL.) I told him he was wrong, "run the DROS". The sale,of course, went through.
I've read here that the DOJ has been denying DROS for unpaid parking tickets, traffic fines, etc. and that having a CA ID, will prevent the BOFFER clowns from failing your DROS for chickensh@t revenue generation. However, I'm not sure this is the case, here's why: when you get a ca ID and you already have valid ca DL, the ID has the same number as your license. So I'm thinking that since they have the same number, they will still use any issues with your DL to thwart your 2nd amendment rights.

So I'm thinking that the only benefit to having DL + ID is that it protects you from the fact that it takes them 4+months to provide ID that they require you to have.basically, you'll have overlapping expiration dates. This is mainly caused by the abysmally incompetent cretins in DMV management who outsource the manufacture of ID's to another country or state ( I forget where they told me the ID's are made but I know it wasn't in CA, that makes too much sense.

G-forceJunkie
12-26-2012, 11:09 AM
Plus, many people dont have their home address on their DL. Put it on your ID and it makes things simpler.

Falstaff
12-26-2012, 11:22 AM
Plus, many people dont have their home address on their DL. Put it on your ID and it makes things simpler.

Good point, if you've moved and your license is valid but does not have your current address will they deny the DROS?? Doesnt the 2nd proof of residency address have to match your photo ID address??

corcoraj2002
12-26-2012, 11:39 AM
I've read here that the DOJ has been denying DROS for unpaid parking tickets, traffic fines, etc. and that having a CA ID, will prevent the BOFFER clowns from failing your DROS for chickensh@t revenue generation. However, I'm not sure this is the case, here's why: when you get a ca ID and you already have valid ca DL, the ID has the same number as your license. So I'm thinking that since they have the same number, they will still use any issues with your DL to thwart your 2nd amendment rights.

Tour DROS is not denied due to having parking tickets it's due to your DL being suspended, due to the parking tickets. I had my DL suspended due to ID theft and I DROS'd a gun and rifle with my CA ID.

It's cause and affect. The tickets cause your license to be suspended, not your DROS to be rejected.

m03
12-26-2012, 11:44 AM
Plus, many people dont have their home address on their DL. Put it on your ID and it makes things simpler.

This is exactly the reason why I got a CA ID. IIRC, it only took about 3 weeks to receive the ID vs. several months it took to receive my DL last time it needed renewal.

ke6guj
12-26-2012, 11:54 AM
I've read here that the DOJ has been denying DROS for unpaid parking tickets, traffic fines, etc. and that having a CA ID, will prevent the BOFFER clowns from failing your DROS for chickensh@t revenue generation. However, I'm not sure this is the case, here's why: when you get a ca ID and you already have valid ca DL, the ID has the same number as your license. So I'm thinking that since they have the same number, they will still use any issues with your DL to thwart your 2nd amendment rights.I've been told that even though they have the same number, they are tracked differently, that an ID will scan differently than the DL, so they know the difference.

SJgunguy24
12-26-2012, 12:01 PM
I have a suspended drivers license and i've passed DROS as a buyer and seller using my CAID card. That's why on the DROS page it asks which form if ID your using. My FFL is my secondary POR.

cruising7388
12-26-2012, 12:17 PM
Tour DROS is not denied due to having parking tickets it's due to your DL being suspended, due to the parking tickets. I had my DL suspended due to ID theft and I DROS'd a gun and rifle with my CA ID.

It's cause and affect. The tickets cause your license to be suspended, not your DROS to be rejected.

Can you clarify something for me? I was under the impression that moving violations are adressed to the vehicle operator whereas parking violations are addressed to the registered owner of the vehicle. I know that uppaid parkers result in the DMV refusing to renew current registration, but how would that affect the status of anybody's driving license?

Also can you enlarge on the ID theft matter? If you were a victim of ID theft,
was it your reporting that to DMV that resulted in a DL suspension or did DMV do this on their own initiative or some info provided to them by an LE agency?

SJgunguy24
12-26-2012, 12:33 PM
Can you clarify something for me? I was under the impression that moving violations are adressed to the vehicle operator whereas parking violations are addressed to the registered owner of the vehicle. I know that uppaid parkers result in the DMV refusing to renew current registration, but how would that affect the status of anybody's driving license?

Also can you enlarge on the ID theft matter? If you were a victim of ID theft,
was it your reporting that to DMV that resulted in a DL suspension or did DMV do this on their own initiative or some info provided to them by an LE agency?

Just guessing here but maybe there was a suspension of his license do to no insurance on the vehicle.
SR22 will do that to you.

Nick5811
12-27-2012, 7:17 AM
Theft by any other name. I’d like to know the dealer’s name also.

+1 to this, as I would not like to be involved in a transaction that could go south and be denied my personal property.

This is a CIVIL matter, not one for a business to go and interject their own policies. This is crystal clear; the gun shop is required to release the firearm to the seller, period. The only reason the FFL is involved is because they are MANDATED to perform PPT's by the law.

Did you guys have to submit a 'bill of sale' to the shop in order for them to process your PPT?

FantasticPlastic
12-27-2012, 7:53 PM
Update, buyer got back to me and we're good to PPT again... apparently it was a DMV error. So there you go.

Re the FFL, a couple people have asked, and my standard response has been that they seem like they want a positive outcome, and I think that the CA law tends to trip people up. Let's assume that they wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to run with the gun and cash, and remember, this was a very short phone call before I knew which questions to ask, so it was not a dialogue where I asked them to give it back and they refused. I appreciate the excellent advice I've received, and I just want to make sure that the knives don't come out too early on.

Nick5811, you have an EXCELLENT idea. In future PPTs I will have the buyer sign a bill of sale with clauses for PPT issues, and will include a copy of CA PC 12082.

As always I am grateful for the knowledgeable Calgunners who help each other out. Thank you!

VTX
12-27-2012, 8:14 PM
this reminds me 2 years ago when the IRS attached my wages for an unpaid ATV offroad greensticker. My ATV NEVER leaves my 5 acres and yet they made me pay for the offroad sticker. I since then NON Op'ed it after they tried to charge for for the next renewal last month. Now you cant own an offroad ATV if you dont have insurance!!!!

VTX
12-27-2012, 8:14 PM
this reminds me 2 years ago when the IRS attached my wages for an unpaid ATV offroad greensticker. My ATV NEVER leaves my 5 acres and yet they made me pay for the offroad sticker. I since then NON Op'ed it after they tried to charge for for the next renewal last month. Now you cant own an offroad ATV if you dont have insurance!!!!

mrdd
12-28-2012, 1:43 AM
Re the FFL, a couple people have asked, and my standard response has been that they seem like they want a positive outcome, and I think that the CA law tends to trip people up. Let's assume that they wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to run with the gun and cash, and remember, this was a very short phone call before I knew which questions to ask, so it was not a dialogue where I asked them to give it back and they refused. I appreciate the excellent advice I've received, and I just want to make sure that the knives don't come out too early on.

However, note that this is not any of the FFLs concern. They are acting purely as a agent of transfer, to ensure that the item is given to the transferee only once they have passed the background check.