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View Full Version : What are the firearms rights of a green card holder?


winnre
12-23-2012, 11:59 AM
My wife is legally here from Scotland. She likes Hollywood, her Galaxy S3, and shooting the full auto Uzi in Vegas. A few months ago she bought her very first handgun.

As she has now been in the country for a year she wet to apply for a CCW. Nope! Only US citizens need apply they told us. Come back after attaining citizenship.

That sucks.

Well, she wants to opt for LUCC. She wants to lock her unloaded gun in the trunk of the car with ammo nearby. CAN SHE DO THAT?

Seriously we had no idea citizenship was required for CCW, but want to know if there are other limits and we don't want to find out the hard way!

Eastbayguy
12-23-2012, 12:07 PM
If I'm not mistaken, she can only transport handguns between destination points.
House->shooting range.
House-> gun smith.

gose
12-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Citizenship is definitely not a state or federal requirement and you might want to let your SD/PD know that many counties in CA issue to non-citizens. Its also unlikely that the restriction would pass muster in federal court and ACLU has already sued a couple of states/cities on this, though we dont have precedent from a higher court.

winnre
12-23-2012, 1:03 PM
I wonder if a Lawyer wants to run with this.....

Guntech
12-23-2012, 1:06 PM
WTF YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT A NON US CITIZEN CAN GET A CCW, BUT THOSE OF US IN SOME "GOOD CAUSE" COUNTIES CAN'T? THAT IS FUBAR

dieselpower
12-23-2012, 1:10 PM
wow...calling all firearm attorneys... someone needs to address this ASAP..

winnre
12-23-2012, 1:30 PM
WTF YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT A NON US CITIZEN CAN GET A CCW, BUT THOSE OF US IN SOME "GOOD CAUSE" COUNTIES CAN'T? THAT IS FUBAR

Don't SHOUT! Anyways I don't know who has the rule where citizenship is required. SB County also has a rule where you need to live here for one year before applying too. And you need references and all sorts of stuff. I think some of that is being challenged but I have not heard of any CCW holder being ineligible for having an I-151.

Jet Setter
12-23-2012, 2:01 PM
I don't believe you can legally have a weapon in your vehicle "just in case." It is a 'to and from' option only.

winnre
12-23-2012, 2:05 PM
I don't believe you can legally have a weapon in your vehicle "just in case." It is a 'to and from' option only.

Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry. Look it up.

dieselpower
12-23-2012, 2:07 PM
If the requirement is based on a protected class or is itself illegal, then the requirement needs to be challenged and changed.

To specifically target Green Card holder as a prohibited class is in itself an illegal act.

MattyB
12-23-2012, 2:14 PM
WTF YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT A NON US CITIZEN CAN GET A CCW, BUT THOSE OF US IN SOME "GOOD CAUSE" COUNTIES CAN'T? THAT IS FUBAR

No yelling!

Oh and she didnt even get to the denial stage, they stopped her well before that. So in her town, youd have a better chance than she would because you are a citizen. In your town, neither of you have a chance either.

rabagley
12-23-2012, 3:16 PM
Legally, "people" and "person" includes citizens, permanent resident aliens, some categories of non-permanent resident and corporations (I disagree that corporations should be in this list, but it will probably take an Amendment at this point to change it).

Meplat
12-23-2012, 3:29 PM
WTF YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT A NON US CITIZEN CAN GET A CCW, BUT THOSE OF US IN SOME "GOOD CAUSE" COUNTIES CAN'T? THAT IS FUBAR

You elected them!

Doheny
12-23-2012, 10:47 PM
Wildhawker in post five and Gene in post six of the below link answer the question pretty succinctly

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=410297 (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=410297)

randomBytes
12-23-2012, 10:47 PM
As she has now been in the country for a year she wet to apply for a CCW. Nope! Only US citizens need apply they told us. Come back after attaining citizenship.

The framers used the term citizen when they meant citizens.
They used the term states when they meant states,
they used people when they meant the people (not just citizens).
The 2A says "people".

winnre
12-23-2012, 11:44 PM
Message sent to Gene!

Hoop
12-24-2012, 7:00 AM
If she's genuinely worried about her safety...well...how often do you see cops frisking scottish women on the side of the road? Not advocating anything just sayin....

taperxz
12-24-2012, 7:19 AM
Citizenship requirements are illegal. flat out illegal for an LTC, Furthermore time requirements to establish local residency is too flat out wrong.

The Sheriff needs to be told this. The Sheriff needs to comply with state laws.

a1c
12-24-2012, 8:19 AM
I'm a green card holder and I have the same gun rights as a US citizen.

I got my HSC, my hunter's license (back when I was not a permanent resident yet), I have a FFL03, and I will soon apply for a LTC.

OP, you've been told gigantic FUD.

a1c
12-24-2012, 8:22 AM
Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry. Look it up.

That language in the PC is IMHO an oversight. I'm a green card holder and I ignore it. Plus, I refuse to carry my green card with me everywhere I go, as I find that requirement unconstitutional.

Glock22Fan
12-24-2012, 8:41 AM
There's supposed to be some case law, involving Engelbert Humperdink (a Brit, living and performing in Las Vegas at the time, real name Arnold George Dorsey) where he successfully won the right to a Nevada permit on the grounds that the 2nd said "People," not "Citizens."

Sadly I have never managed to find a citation for that.

AFAIK, there's nothing in Californian or Federal law that stops sheriffs or CLEO's from issuing to green card residents except for either their ignorance or deliberate bias.

Before I got my citizenship, the only proof I had that I was legally here was a stamp in my UK passport (they delayed so long issuing the G.C. that it never arrived). I never carried my passport around. American citizens are not required to carry their passports, I figured, so why should I.

winnre
12-24-2012, 1:18 PM
If she's genuinely worried about her safety...well...how often do you see cops frisking scottish women on the side of the road? Not advocating anything just sayin....

She gets hit on all the time. She is a size 0 and looks great. She even got a speeding ticket and after she signed the ticket the cop hit on her for ten minutes. Sh didn't know she could just leave.


Citizenship requirements are illegal. flat out illegal for an LTC, Furthermore time requirements to establish local residency is too flat out wrong.

The Sheriff needs to be told this. The Sheriff needs to comply with state laws.

I need to find a NICE way to tell them. Maybe Gene can do it?




OP, you've been told gigantic FUD.

Thanks!


...I refuse to carry my green card with me everywhere I go, as I find that requirement unconstitutional.

Do you register every January? Inform USCIS if you move? There are conditions to getting a green card that are beyond the constitution just like there are conditions to geting a CCW that are beyond the constitution.

a1c
12-24-2012, 1:56 PM
Do you register every January? Inform USCIS if you move? There are conditions to getting a green card that are beyond the constitution just like there are conditions to geting a CCW that are beyond the constitution.

I don't register every January. I don't have to. Never heard of this requirement, and I've been living in the US for over 13 years.

I do inform USCIS when I move, obviously.

I see having to carry my immigration papers as a violation of my Fourth Amendment rights. The irony is that USCIS agents and immigration attorneys actually will advise aliens (whether they are visa workers or permanent residents) to only carry those papers when they travel abroad, as losing them is a nightmare. Right now, for me, that would mean carrying an expired green card and a I-797 letter-sized original document (extending my current status) everywhere I go. I only carry my driver's license when I travel domestically, just like US citizens (which I will be in a few months, hopefully).

safewaysecurity
12-24-2012, 2:18 PM
There's already a court case about this very issue in Massachusetts I believe or some other state that deals with noncitizens. I think the courts said its unconstitutional to restrict the right onky to citizens.

gemini1
12-24-2012, 2:42 PM
I got my FL ccw 6 months after securing my green card. I dont remember being asked of my immigrations status when I applied for it.

sarabellum
12-24-2012, 3:03 PM
My wife is legally here from Scotland. She likes Hollywood, her Galaxy S3, and shooting the full auto Uzi in Vegas. A few months ago she bought her very first handgun.

As she has now been in the country for a year she wet to apply for a CCW. Nope! Only US citizens need apply they told us. Come back after attaining citizenship.

That sucks.

Well, she wants to opt for LUCC. She wants to lock her unloaded gun in the trunk of the car with ammo nearby. CAN SHE DO THAT?

Seriously we had no idea citizenship was required for CCW, but want to know if there are other limits and we don't want to find out the hard way!

Penal Code 26150 to 26225 refer to "applicant" and "person" they do not refer to U.S. Citizens. The requirements for a concealed weapons permit in California are summarized in 26150 as follows:
(a) When a person applies for a license to carry a pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, the sheriff of a county may issue a license to that person
upon proof of all of the following:
(1) ...good moral character.
(2) ....Good cause exists for issuance of the license.
(3) The applicant is a resident of the county or a city within the
county, or the applicant's principal place of employment or business
is in the county or a city...
(4) The applicant has completed a course of training as described
in Section 26165.

Citizenship is not mentioned as a qualification. All persons within the U.S., including Legal Permanent Residents are entitled to the equal protection of the law. Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356, 367 (1886). LPRs are entitled to purchase firearms.

More facts are needed in this scenario.

1JimMarch
12-24-2012, 3:43 PM
accidental double-tap

1JimMarch
12-24-2012, 3:44 PM
The actual court case that bans all forms of firearm-related discrimination on that basis is:

http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/rappard.txt

This is ONE of the two reasons what your wife was told was illegal on the part of the agency.

The other way in which they broke the law is that as a law enforcement agency, they have no ability to create new laws. They are enforcement only.

If I was in that boat and I was told this, I would go back with a hidden-cam, get absolute proof that this is what they were saying, and then pack. That's ME PERSONALLY...it is a legally risky proposition.

The reason I would do this is that suing them won't help because they'll just dream up another reason to deny.

I am in fact already in the same boat, sorta: as an Arizona resident I don't have any carry rights possible in California - they don't respect my AZ permit and they will not issue me a permit either. Cross-border discrimination of this sort has been banned by the US Supreme Court since 1870 (Ward v. Maryland) and the same logic was repeated in 1999 (Saenz v. Roe). I've packed "illegally" in Cali on brief visits fairly recently.

Anchors
12-24-2012, 8:06 PM
Green card holders have the same rights with regard to firearms as citizens. Or they do in practice anyway.

I've sold a lot of guns to permanent residents (green card) and non-immigrant aliens (visas).