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View Full Version : NRA Message vs. Messenger


Tiberius
12-22-2012, 10:54 PM
The core of the NRA's message is logical - pass all the laws you want, to take effect at some point in the future, but the only way to protect schools now (or soon) is to harden them as targets. It's incredible that this concept - which is used for banks, the President, Congress, and celebrities - is being received with such scorn.

But LaPierre came off very unfavorably and all 2A supporters are now being painted with the looney brush, even more than usual. Larry Pratt of GOA did a great job on Piers "Im a Dick" Morgan's show, despite being called a "very stupid man." Jesse Ventura has been calm and convincing. The woman from Texas was in that cafeteria shooting is very good.

The NRA could have delivered a substantively similar message in far more palatable packaging. To me, the message should be calm expression of profound horror at the CT tragedy, and openness to finding a way to prevent such in the future. The chokepoints here were 1) the guns were not secured and 2) the school was not secured. Not to mention the failings of the mental health system.

The 2A needs advocates who can speak with national credibility. Unfortunately, at this point La Pierre probably can't. However, even Chuck Woolery can. I'm hopeful that wiser folk than I are putting together a group of calm rational folk to publicly explain why the "AWB" is really banning guns, why that might be a problem, and so on. We have a strong case and a lot of national support. But we have to avoid getting marginalized, painted into a corner, and typecast as crazies. It feels a bit like that's happening.

To sum it up - imho we need a national spokesman who isn't LaPierre.

Gray Peterson
12-22-2012, 11:10 PM
I posted a long diatribe on Facebook, saying that Wayne LaPierre, David Keene and Chris Cox need to go, immediately.

The message was also bad. There was no alliances statement with the mental health community protection activists to pass Kendra's law in all states nationwide.

Wayne LaPierre disgraced us in public with this long diatribe of BS. They allowed Code Pink in (terrible security, which is why people are questioning the security shield plan if they can't keep Code Pink out...).

He went for a long disproven theory of violent video game influence that hasn't been taken seriously since Tipper Gore. He insulted two generations of gamers.

Every single one of my friends who were moderate on the issue of guns, but gamers, were extremely pissed off and wanted to support anything the NRA opposes out of spite.

He suggested a "list of the mentally ill" rather than the "dangerously mentally ill who have been adjudicated mentally incompetent", enraging the communities surrounding mental health treatment to be really pissed off.

As Alan Gura noted in a tweet:

"I'm a lawyer in private practice whose work includes 2A, & yes, today's antics make that job hard"

If the NRA Board of Directors wants to not be steamrolled & destroyed in the longer term war, they need to call an emergency board meeting over Cisco Telepresence , and remove these old doddering culture warrior fools. Enough of this "unity" crap, and remove them. NOW.

sholling
12-23-2012, 12:03 AM
I'm not a fan of Wayne LaPierre but the fact remains that Moses or Gandhi could have delivered a response and the media would have had the same reaction. They hate us and all we as gun owners unwilling to meekly hand over our rights and our guns stand for and if it wouldn't have made a bit of difference if it were Gandhi making presentation that didn't involve total surrender. To the Progressive media the problem is always the same - the general public are too dimwitted to be trusted to make the right choices and the answer is always the same - more government control over us.

For too many years the NRA (formerly Fudds R Us) tried to be conciliatory and find middle ground and got slapped from the left for not conceding enough and from gun owners for not having the spine to fight tooth and nail for all of our rights. Wayne LaPierre may be argumentative and a bit of a bull in a china shop but I'll take an argumentative bull in a china shop over another Fudd willing to sell us out over carry and semiautomatic pistols and rifles or a wimp that will trade away black rifles for a promise not to touch their wheel guns. Eventually we may want to replace LaPierre and Cox but this is hardly time. Right now we need to rally and put on a united front.

Excelsior
12-23-2012, 1:34 AM
I'm not a fan of Wayne LaPierre but the fact remains that Moses or Gandhi could have delivered a response and the media would have had the same reaction. They hate us and all we as gun owners unwilling to meekly hand over our rights and our guns stand for and if it wouldn't have made a bit of difference if it were Gandhi making presentation that didn't involve total surrender. To the Progressive media the problem is always the same - the general public are too dimwitted to be trusted to make the right choices and the answer is always the same - more government control over us.

For too many years the NRA (formerly Fudds R Us) tried to be conciliatory and find middle ground and got slapped from the left for not conceding enough and from gun owners for not having the spine to fight tooth and nail for all of our rights. Wayne LaPierre may be argumentative and a bit of a bull in a china shop but I'll take an argumentative bull in a china shop over another Fudd willing to sell us out over carry and semiautomatic pistols and rifles or a wimp that will trade away black rifles for a promise not to touch their wheel guns. Eventually we may want to replace LaPierre and Cox but this is hardly time. Right now we need to rally and put on a united front.

Extremely well said.

I truly don't think WLP is all that bad. But I think the NRA needs to be a great deal more than it is and WLP is neither the person to build it to a 15-25M member organization nor is he the one to continue to lead it.

Your most important point is noting that we need to put on a united front right now. We do indeed.

wildhawker
12-23-2012, 2:25 AM
The generally-accepted slate of people in line to take over for WLP is in many ways worse.

-Brandon

Gray Peterson
12-23-2012, 3:17 AM
I'm not a fan of Wayne LaPierre but the fact remains that Moses or Gandhi could have delivered a response and the media would have had the same reaction. They hate us and all we as gun owners unwilling to meekly hand over our rights and our guns stand for and if it wouldn't have made a bit of difference if it were Gandhi making presentation that didn't involve total surrender. To the Progressive media the problem is always the same - the general public are too dimwitted to be trusted to make the right choices and the answer is always the same - more government control over us.

For too many years the NRA (formerly Fudds R Us) tried to be conciliatory and find middle ground and got slapped from the left for not conceding enough and from gun owners for not having the spine to fight tooth and nail for all of our rights. Wayne LaPierre may be argumentative and a bit of a bull in a china shop but I'll take an argumentative bull in a china shop over another Fudd willing to sell us out over carry and semiautomatic pistols and rifles or a wimp that will trade away black rifles for a promise not to touch their wheel guns. Eventually we may want to replace LaPierre and Cox but this is hardly time. Right now we need to rally and put on a united front.

You keep blaming the media for savaging Wayne LaPierre & David Keene, when the reality is, their presentation completely sucked to the point of enraging every potential allied organization.

No one on our side asked them to capitulate to gun control supporters. The message, which was formulated by Wayne & his inner circle was "blame the media", "blame video games", rather than workable alliance actions with other organizations (none of which are gun control organizations), which is typical of old men who's all engaging in cultural warfare against a younger generation versus protecting our civil rights.

The "United Front" thing is total crap. Wayne LaPierre, David Keene, and Chris Cox need to be booted immediately from the organization, and new leadership needs to be selected, and the terrible influence they brought in need to be removed root & stem.

They blew it, and once again, other organizations may have to really step up their game to save our civil rights.

SuperSet
12-23-2012, 7:24 AM
Hard truths in what Gray is saying and I agree on many points. What wildhawker mentions is even more disconcerting, especially given the stakes at this time.

Tiberius
12-23-2012, 10:00 AM
I've seen Tom Selleck do a calm, reaonable, informed job when arguing on TV. In this media age, not looking crazy is an important factor.

DrjonesUSA
12-23-2012, 10:17 AM
You keep blaming the media for savaging Wayne LaPierre & David Keene, when the reality is, their presentation completely sucked to the point of enraging every potential allied organization.

Sorry, at this point in time, Wayne LaPierre could have held a press conference to announce that the NRA has secretly been funding research for decades and has found *the cure* for cancer, and the media would react the exact same way. It's blind, unbridled hatred towards the NRA, our Constitution, and American Gun Owners.


No one on our side asked them to capitulate to gun control supporters. The message, which was formulated by Wayne & his inner circle was "blame the media", "blame video games", rather than workable alliance actions with other organizations (none of which are gun control organizations), which is typical of old men who's all engaging in cultural warfare against a younger generation versus protecting our civil rights.

Um.....already there have been threads here talking about trading magazine capacity for carry rights, and otherwise talk of compromise and capitulation.

Read ANY media release you can find in the past week, and there will be "some random hunter" saying, "oh well I'm a lifelong hunter and I agree we don't need those evil AR-15s. I carried one of those back in 'nam."


The "United Front" thing is total crap. Wayne LaPierre, David Keene, and Chris Cox need to be booted immediately from the organization, and new leadership needs to be selected, and the terrible influence they brought in need to be removed root & stem.

They blew it, and once again, other organizations may have to really step up their game to save our civil rights.


Again, you're flat wrong. Now is the time for ALL gun owners to come together and present a united front.

I thought Wayne did very well, and am not surprised in the least (of course) that there has been ZERO discussion about Wayne's mention of how president hussein blocked additional funding for school security the past two years.

I think the idea of armed security at schools is not that bad an idea. I was out at a very ritzy shopping center yesterday and the jeweler in there has for YEARS employed a visibly armed, full-uniform County Sheriff.

I don't seem to recall any outcry about "turning our shopping centers into armed fortresses."

Same with banks, other shopping centers, etc. There is security, armed and not, EVERYWHERE.

I say this seriously - apparently people place far greater value on shiny yet worthless baubles than they do the lives of children.

Prior to this past week I've NEVER heard anyone complain about armed security ANYWHERE.

Yet suggest putting them in schools and suddenly the NRA is nuttier than the shooter himself.

Explain THAT.

Apart from ripping apart the Constitution and voiding the rights of millions of gun owners across the country, I've heard absolutely ZERO ideas from the anti-gunners.

3RDGEARGRNDRR
12-23-2012, 10:26 AM
I listened again to the conference on the NRA website. LaPierre is asking for responsibility , in the media, as a parent, and to be a citizen and patriot for your country- and he is right. How many people in America, hell, even on these boards, know more about the history of the Kardashians than the history of their own president?

I changed my 5year renewal to being a Lifer today, whatever I could at this moment to help the cause.


Still funny to me how people will pay $200 more for a rifle, then the $25 DROS to fund Feinsteins crazy ideas, then bash LaPierre and not give a single dime to the NRA.


What scare me the most, is not the leftist Anti-gunners, but the dissection of the panicked gun community and ultimately, the conquering of us all. Those who do not know history, are doomed to repeat it.

AEtrane
12-23-2012, 10:28 AM
This infighting is discraceful. Do you see Brady, VPC, MAIG et al. getting into a ****-measuring contest over how to infringe on the 2A? NO, because they know they need all the help they can get to push some legislation through (and they know something is sure to get through if they act quickly).

They also have the loyalty of the media on their side, something we wholly lack. This makes a united front on our end that much more crucial, and the lack of one that much more damning. We are in the midst of an all-out war, and our chosen course of action is to pontificate as to how the biggest 2A voice in the nation handled the first battle? Has this level of dissent ever garnished any measurable victories to the dissenter?

I personally think WLP could have focused less on video games, and more on mental health, but what I think he should have done specifically is irrelevant. He didn't sell ANY of us out, he made it clear he's in this for the long haul, and he made it clear that there will be no compromise.

Whether everyone agrees with him fully or not, the NRA and WLP needs to be percieved as universally supported by the 2A community. We must stand together to support our cause, and resume bickering amongst ourselves AFTER our freedoms have been secured, anything less will spell doom for our rights.

sholling
12-23-2012, 11:04 AM
You keep blaming the media for savaging Wayne LaPierre & David Keene, when the reality is, their presentation completely sucked to the point of enraging every potential allied organization.
The problem IS the Progressive media and you're letting your dislike for the NRA's leadership and your disappointment that they haven't embraced your other priorities get in the way of realizing that. The blame for the shooting falls on one individual and those in the Progressive media and politics that enabled him by disarming teachers and creating legally binding victim disarmament zones. BUT the blame for the attack on our rights and the only risk to those rights falls almost exclusively on the Progressive media. The Progressive media will never accept our right to bear arms and will never become our friends no matter how much we play nice with them - which means that the only way to fight back is to rub their noses in their own biases, ignorance, and bigotry and their part in rendering victims helpless.

Where we do agree is in the need for outreach and alliances. The NRA needs to make massively growing the number of African-American, female and GLBT members and growing the culture of armed self defense within those groups that have traditionally been the victims of criminal assault a HUGE priority!

They blew it, and once again, other organizations may have to really step up their game to save our civil rights.
Again unless they came into the news conference calling for the immediate repeal of the 2nd Amendment and the confiscation of everything more dangerous than a rubber spoon Jesus or Gandhi would gotten just as hostile of a reaction from the media.

HonkingAntelope
12-23-2012, 12:28 PM
Again, you're flat wrong. Now is the time for ALL gun owners to come together and present a united front.

I thought Wayne did very well, and am not surprised in the least (of course) that there has been ZERO discussion about Wayne's mention of how president hussein blocked additional funding for school security the past two years.

I think the idea of armed security at schools is not that bad an idea. I was out at a very ritzy shopping center yesterday and the jeweler in there has for YEARS employed a visibly armed, full-uniform County Sheriff.

I don't seem to recall any outcry about "turning our shopping centers into armed fortresses."

I'm all for a united front, but a lot of us have doubts that wlp's version is what we want to present.

The bottom line is, the vast majority of the public simply want a safe environement for their kids, and feel that throwing more guns at the problem will only make things worse. Changing that sentiment is project that would take years, if not decades. wlp seems to be completely oblivious to that simple reality, nevermind actually appearing sensitive to it.

There is a very, VERY good reason why a lot of other institutional settings with captive audiences such as prisons or mental hospitals prohibit their own staff and everyone else from having guns anywhere near the areas accessible to the patients/inmates...

sholling
12-23-2012, 1:10 PM
I'm all for a united front, but a lot of us have doubts that wlp's version is what we want to present.

The bottom line is, the vast majority of the public simply want a safe environement for their kids, and feel that throwing more guns at the problem will only make things worse. Changing that sentiment is project that would take years, if not decades. wlp seems to be completely oblivious to that simple reality, nevermind actually appearing sensitive to it.

There is a very, VERY good reason why a lot of other institutional settings with captive audiences such as prisons or mental hospitals prohibit their own staff and everyone else from having guns anywhere near the areas accessible to the patients/inmates...
There are two approaches to dealing with the situation 1) point out the FACT that an armed staff would have saved most of those kids, or 2) go along with the media narrative that the problem is too many guns and lose our rights. The first is simply stating the truth and offering a workable answer, the second is complete surrender.

Gray Peterson
12-23-2012, 6:09 PM
The problem IS the Progressive media and you're letting your dislike for the NRA's leadership and your disappointment that they haven't embraced your other priorities get in the way of realizing that.

You're going to need to explain to me what you mean by "embraced your other priorities".

Again unless they came into the news conference calling for the immediate repeal of the 2nd Amendment and the confiscation of everything more dangerous than a rubber spoon Jesus or Gandhi would gotten just as hostile of a reaction from the media.

This isn't just about the media. This is about WLP insulting the makers of the video game world, things that helped Gun Culture 2.0 flourish, and what Gun Culture 3.0 is currently developing now....

Blaming doesn't work. Solutions work. He sounded like a doddering old fool ranting about the culture wars of Tipper Gore era.

I don't give passes to fools, even during "wartime". He f'd up.

HonkingAntelope
12-23-2012, 6:19 PM
There are two approaches to dealing with the situation 1) point out the FACT that an armed staff would have saved most of those kids, or 2) go along with the media narrative that the problem is too many guns and lose our rights. The first is simply stating the truth and offering a workable answer, the second is complete surrender.

As I said, #1 would've been great IF the vast majority of the people we need to swing to our side (v. those already in our camp) didn't firmly prefer the media narrative, instead of the truth. If the speech simply asked why a typical jewellery store is far better protected than a typical school and left it at that for the public to ponder, that would've been fine. Instead, it becomes the centerpiece of NRA's response, making even a large chunk of pro-2A crowd go "WTF???!!!". I'm not even mentioning wlp coming off as completely out of touch with anyone under the age of 40.

merrill
12-23-2012, 6:25 PM
Oh please stop with the drizzles. The main stream media has no interest in understanding the issue or dealing in reality anymore than the democrats. They see this as only another opportunity to push their agenda to undermine the constitution and our rights. Wayne did a fine job. Let's support him and NRA and stop this silly self examination and hand wringing that is just rampant here.

amd64
12-23-2012, 6:30 PM
Sorry in advance for saying this, but NRA needs better public speakers than who they're using now. Delivery, appearance, charisma. Fence sitters will simply turnoff based on appearance. LaPierre often looks like a tired guy who doesn't want to be there.

This rolls into shallow and PC territory, but when you fight a war, anything goes.

SgtDinosaur
12-23-2012, 6:45 PM
......which is typical of old men who's all engaging in cultural warfare against a younger generation versus protecting our civil rights.

Usually I am in complete agreement with you Gray, but this bothers me. Do you really see this as a generational thing? I think I'm older than LaPierre, but I never saw it this way before. Maybe that's why I'm not very sympathetic to all the outraged gamers, though. It seems rather childish to me. Afraid I don't see video games as comparable to gun rights at all.

I do think everyone should have the right to amuse themselves with video games though, and I don't think the NRA is suggesting they be banned. More like suggesting they are part of the culture of violence the killer teenagers subscribe to. I love action movies and books too, but I don't revel in the idea of slaughtering innocent people, and I doubt 99.9% of gamers do either. The whole gaming thing is turn into a distraction, and a divisive one at that.

Gray Peterson
12-23-2012, 7:15 PM
Usually I am in complete agreement with you Gray, but this bothers me. Do you really see this as a generational thing? I think I'm older than LaPierre, but I never saw it this way before. Maybe that's why I'm not very sympathetic to all the outraged gamers, though. It seems rather childish to me. Afraid I don't see video games as comparable to gun rights at all.

I do think everyone should have the right to amuse themselves with video games though, and I don't think the NRA is suggesting they be banned. More like suggesting they are part of the culture of violence the killer teenagers subscribe to. I love action movies and books too, but I don't revel in the idea of slaughtering innocent people, and I doubt 99.9% of gamers do either. The whole gaming thing is turn into a distraction, and a divisive one at that.

I do see this as a generation thing. I absolutely do. The outraged gamers are the future voters of America. Next year's PAX Prime will likely feature speakers that will just repeatedly say "**** the NRA" and light a paper with the symbol of the NRA on fire right on stage. I can guarantee you that's going to happen.

Video gamers don't like to be told they are part of the violence problem any more than gun owners like to be told that, and they will reflexively oppose anything the NRA supports, period, out of spite.

HonkingAntelope
12-23-2012, 7:31 PM
More like suggesting they are part of the culture of violence the killer teenagers subscribe to. I love action movies and books too, but I don't revel in the idea of slaughtering innocent people, and I doubt 99.9% of gamers do either. The whole gaming thing is turn into a distraction, and a divisive one at that.

And that's different from libs irrationally blaming guns for everything wrong with the world how? What's going to get the blame after the next mass shooting? Rap music and goth subculture? Puhleeeze! :mad:

Yeah, you bet it's a divisive distraction. But only because we have an old fogey in charge of leading the biggest legislative fight in the last 10 years, who appears to be only a single notch more in touch with reality than the crazy that murdered 20 schoolkids. With the stakes as high as they are, I expected a way better performance from NRA.

sholling
12-23-2012, 7:58 PM
This isn't just about the media. This is about WLP insulting the makers of the video game world, things that helped Gun Culture 2.0 flourish, and what Gun Culture 3.0 is currently developing now....

Blaming doesn't work. Solutions work. He sounded like a doddering old fool ranting about the culture wars of Tipper Gore era.

I don't give passes to fools, even during "wartime". He f'd up.
There I agree with you but it's a minor bit of stupidity. I'll even agree that the NRA needs to find and groom someone younger but every bit as willing to take the fight to our enemies. I just don't see anyone waiting in the wings that could take the media beating that he took today without folding. I have never seen anyone subjected to the full tilt badgering that WLP took from David Gregory without conceding this or that. Where the heck was that level of probing over F&F and Benghazi?

What's scary is this time we're up against not just ABC, CBS, CNN, NBC/MSNBC, the AP, the NY Times and the LA Times but also Fox News and their parent News Corp. We have nobody on either broadcast or cable TV news on our side.

BTW have you also noted the push now for 5rd mag restrictions?

JMP
12-23-2012, 8:34 PM
The outraged gamers are the future voters of America.

If outraged gamers are the future of America, it's time to throw in the towel. There is a reason it is called a "game". It ain't real, and they shouldn't be taking themselves that seriously. The radical liberals like Yee have attacked the video games much harder.

otteray
12-23-2012, 9:57 PM
The outraged gamers are the future voters of America. Next year's PAX Prime will likely feature speakers that will just repeatedly say "**** the NRA" and light a paper with the symbol of the NRA on fire right on stage.

So, you're saying that the non-violent gamers will now easily become violent because of their outrage of be accused of potential violence, right? :confused:
Won't that kind of drive home WLP's point?

tcrpe
12-23-2012, 10:02 PM
Sorry in advance for saying this, but NRA needs better public speakers than who they're using now. Delivery, appearance, charisma. Fence sitters will simply turnoff based on appearance. LaPierre often looks like a tired guy who doesn't want to be there.

This rolls into shallow and PC territory, but when you fight a war, anything goes.

Agreed, they should get that poseur nutnfancy instead.

Gray Peterson
12-23-2012, 10:08 PM
So, you're saying that the non-violent gamers will now easily become violent because of their outrage of be accused of potential violence, right? :confused:
Won't that kind of drive home WLP's point?

If you think use of profanity to ridicule an organization who attacked your interests is violent, I don't know what to tell you.

otteray
12-23-2012, 10:15 PM
If you think use of profanity to ridicule an organization who attacked your interests is violent, I don't know what to tell you.
I guess not. Must be a generational thing.