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View Full Version : DOJ told gun shop to stop selling Mag Rebuilt Kits


Johnnyfres
12-22-2012, 1:41 PM
So the local gun shop here in Clovis was visited by the DOJ recently and told to stop selling magazine rebuild kits. I was going to buy some AR and AK rebuild kits today and they are not allowed to sell them. Anyone know of a law against selling rebuild kits? Is this legal?

Thanks

Eldraque
12-22-2012, 1:42 PM
lol. from what I know its legal.

However the government can do whatever they want. :rolleyes:

keenkeen
12-22-2012, 1:44 PM
We the Poeple seems to have be told by the DOJ to stop doing SSE and selling rebuild kits...

Not sure anyone have more info than that. If they where still selling them they would have been out of stock anyway so don't feel to bad.

keenkeen
12-22-2012, 1:44 PM
We the Poeple seems to have be told by the DOJ to stop doing SSE and selling rebuild kits...

Not sure anyone has more info than that. If they where still selling them they would have been out of stock anyway so don't feel to bad.

Johnnyfres
12-22-2012, 1:49 PM
Yes I was surprised to see kits in the store. They were also told that the DOJ is stopping the importation of AK kits into the US. Not sure if that is true.

TreeHugger
12-22-2012, 1:50 PM
DOJ can say anything they want, but IS what they are asking the actual law yet?

I swear, this F-Up state has one of the most stringent gun laws in the country and ALSO is one of the most ignorant!

Tasty
12-22-2012, 1:51 PM
A FFL opened earlier this year close to me and according to the owners, DOJ flat out told them not to SSE. When they mentioned another local shop that does it the DOJ said something like "We're very aware of what they do, we've been keeping an eye on them. Don't expect them to be doing the SSE for much longer."

Sounds to me like DOJ doesn't like SSE and rebuild kits being sold but they don't have a PC to stop it. They're using fear and intimidation as far as I can tell.

keenkeen
12-22-2012, 1:54 PM
A FFL opened earlier this year close to me and according to the owners, DOJ flat out told them not to SSE. When they mentioned another local shop that does it the DOJ said something like "We're very aware of what they do, we've been keeping an eye on them. Don't expect them to be doing the SSE for much longer."

Sounds to me like DOJ doesn't like SSE and rebuild kits being sold but they don't have a PC to stop it. They're using fear and intimidation as far as I can tell.

Yes, many stories like this. Any FFL that is pressured like this from the CDOJ should seek legal counsel from a gun law attorney...IMHO.

Johnnyfres
12-22-2012, 1:58 PM
double post.

Johnnyfres
12-22-2012, 1:58 PM
"They're using fear and intimidation as far as I can tell."

Sounds like the Gestapo to me?

artoaster
12-22-2012, 2:08 PM
From what I know (which is little) the DOJ people tell gun store people all kinds of stuff. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.

Example: Gun store owner asks question X about this or that and DOJ auditors or whatever they're called answer with the latest rumor from the DOJ watercooler.

HowardW56
12-22-2012, 2:12 PM
Yes, many stories like this. Any FFL that is pressured like this from the CDOJ should seek legal counsel from a gun law attorney...IMHO.

They can contact a firearms attorney or http://www.calffl.org/ .....

CSACANNONEER
12-22-2012, 2:22 PM
Yes I was surprised to see kits in the store. They were also told that the DOJ is stopping the importation of AK kits into the US. Not sure if that is true.

So, CALIFORNIA DOJ has the power to make and enforce FEDERAL LAWS without even having to go through the proper procedures to make a new law? Yea, if anyone believes that, they are fools. In fact, if someone told me that, I would not believe anything they said.


They can contact a firearms attorney or http://www.calffl.org/ .....

The best post in this thread!

wildhawker
12-22-2012, 2:29 PM
The FFL should contact me at bcombs@calffl.org.

BoonieGhost
12-22-2012, 2:30 PM
So, CALIFORNIA DOJ has the power to make and enforce FEDERAL LAWS without even having to go through the proper procedures to make a new law? Yea, if anyone believes that, they are fools. In fact, if someone told me that, I would not believe anything they said.




The best post in this thread!

Dude, haven't you heard? CA is the left-coast hand of the new Gestapo!

Atlantaboi2012
12-22-2012, 2:33 PM
Its all in the area of town the shop decides to set up in for some reason. May have to do with county codes, locality to schools , etc... Only 1 place out here I know of that actually does it flatout and the owner always looks like a nervous wreck everytime I see him. Most vendors dont even bother saying it is a headache. The stores do well but I cant imagine the expense they have to endure just to keep GOOD attorneys on standby and keeping all paperwork on the up and up

Johnnyfres
12-22-2012, 2:34 PM
Thanks Brandon I will let Ryan know to contact you.

wash
12-22-2012, 2:35 PM
DOJ agents say lots of things.

Some FFLs are intimidated for a variety of reasons.

I prefer to do business with FFLs who listen to good gun lawyers instead of bad DOJ agents.

SSE is totally legal. It's written in to the law. There is no law against selling magazine parts kits so that is totally legal too.

The part that I can't blame some older FFLs for is ancient paperwork mistakes. If they know they can't survive an audit because they have messy handwriting or can't spell, they have to listen to the DOJ or get their ticket pulled.

With computerized records, this is a non-issue so newer FFLs can tell those DOJ agents to shove it.

Root66
12-22-2012, 2:42 PM
Every government official is a kingdom onto himself...you can't believe some of the stuff I've heard coming from county building inspectors and DMV clerks.

CaliforniaLiberal
12-22-2012, 2:42 PM
I think part of how this works is that the DOJ says don't do such-and-such and the FFL thinks, "I know that there is no law against that, but could the DOJ and my local District Attorney shut down my business and drag my sorry a** into court where I'll pay a lawyer thousands of dollars before the fake charges are dropped and I can re-open my business?"

This is an abuse of law-enforcement power by intimidation. But generally effective I think.

OleCuss
12-22-2012, 2:58 PM
I think part of how this works is that the DOJ says don't do such-and-such and the FFL thinks, "I know that there is no law against that, but could the DOJ and my local District Attorney shut down my business and drag my sorry a** into court where I'll pay a lawyer thousands of dollars before the fake charges are dropped and I can re-open my business?"

This is an abuse of law-enforcement power by intimidation. But generally effective I think.

Maybe effective until Brandon gets involved?

I have this mental picture of Brandon licking his chops over this one. . . I think his canine teeth are getting longer as well.

thedrickel
12-22-2012, 3:00 PM
Why aren't these shops recording any and all interactions with DOJ and ATF? DOJ has for years been spewing this type of garbage to dealers that they think they can intimidate. Sounds more like the normal ˇtwo weeks! type activity.

wildhawker
12-22-2012, 3:26 PM
Yep.

HowardW56
12-22-2012, 4:01 PM
Yep.


:yes:

ummmmmm456
12-22-2012, 4:12 PM
anything and everything they can do to scare people.... that sucks.... i say use calguns against them to properly educate these people...

Drivedabizness
12-22-2012, 4:19 PM
I think we should pitch in and get Brandon some nice steel toe nut kicking boots...something chic so he can blend in with the Seattle crowd :)

edwardm
12-22-2012, 4:55 PM
Clarification - US DOJ or California DOJ? I try not to assume one for the other (though I can't see why US DOJ would bother).

If CalDOJ, sounds like pre-emptive enforcement of AB 48 (the ink isn't even dry).

Moonshine
12-22-2012, 5:10 PM
The DOJ is aware of the internet's power... FUD one FFL and scare the entire community.

wildhawker
12-22-2012, 5:13 PM
Some field agents have reportedly told some FFLs that rebuild kits, parts etc are unlawful. Those FFLs should tell the agent to put it in writing and then contact Cal-FFL.

Johnnyfres
12-22-2012, 5:35 PM
Yes this was CA DOJ. I will talk to the owner after the holidays and see if he wants to take it any further. I appreciate the input and insight guys. Thanks Brandon for offering your help as well. Merry Christmas you to all and keep up the good fight.

SMR510
12-22-2012, 5:40 PM
Some field agents have reportedly told some FFLs that rebuild kits, parts etc are unlawful. Those FFLs should tell the agent to put it in writing and then contact Cal-FFL.

That was exactly what I was thinking. Can you write that down and sign it for me?

Guaranteed they will not do that, they dont write anything down anymore.

glbtrottr
12-22-2012, 5:52 PM
DOJ knows perfectly well what they do and what they don't do.

"Ignorantia juris non excusat"
Ignorance of the law excuses no one.

DOJ would never excuse any criminal charges on their very narrow (and narrow minded) jurisdiction. The zealots that are employed by them, while rarely normal, often get it in their heads to play hardball.

SSE, Rebuild Kits, bullet buttons, the list, blah blah blah. The Secret Police are here and they're coming for you.

I will be very, very amused to get the pulse of law enforcement this year at Shot Show.

DOJ's intimidation and threats of enforcing non existent laws should be prosecuted as they peddle influence under color of authority; I have been waiting nearly a YEAR for a LEGR on an arrest that got dismissed based on a pistol that was "loaded" because magazines were in the "proximate area" within the locked safe.

I said it before, I'll say it again: DOJ will be the first traitors of the constitution when it comes to ignoring the 2nd amendment - they will gleefully partake in any efforts assisting with confiscation, seizure, destruction of firearms, involuntary buy backs, and assisting in any legislation that needs to be crafted to ban any and all firearms that go "bang".

wash
12-22-2012, 5:59 PM
Some FFLs that let themselves be pressured like this are trying to avoid making waves.

They don't understand that it just makes those DOJ agents expect them to fold when they ask them to stop doing something.

When an FFL tells a DOJ agent that they are going to continue selling legal arms and parts despite their request, the DOJ agent starts to expect that the FFL isn't going to take any **** from them and they will stop requesting stupid stuff.

I want my FFLs to be on the right side of that.

jaymz
12-22-2012, 6:27 PM
Gun shop needs to tell DOJ to pound sand (in a politically correct fashion of course).

HowardW56
12-22-2012, 6:30 PM
Gun shop needs to tell DOJ to pound sand (in a politically correct fashion of course).

Please go pound sand?

tcrpe
12-22-2012, 6:36 PM
When an FFL tells a DOJ agent that they are going to continue selling legal arms and parts despite their request, the DOJ agent starts to expect that the FFL isn't going to take any **** from them and they will stop requesting stupid stuff.


Quite the contrary, DOJ will step up the pressure. One does not question the authority of the state.

wildhawker
12-22-2012, 6:58 PM
Quite the contrary, DOJ will step up the pressure. One does not question the authority of the state.

What pressure can they exert?

If you're operating your business within the law, then what can DOJ do that won't result in serious problems for them?

-Brandon

Grumpyoldretiredcop
12-22-2012, 11:25 PM
Gun shop needs to have competent counsel tell DOJ to pound sand (in a politically correct fashion of course).

Better if counsel does it for the FFL.

Merovign
12-23-2012, 12:27 AM
Remember the Rule of Law? Good times, good times.

liberallyloaded
12-23-2012, 1:09 AM
I'd be very amused if their threats were put in writing...

edwardm
12-23-2012, 3:59 AM
It could be interesting for counsel (assuming the FFL caught the name of the agent or agents in the first place) to write a brief, but firm, letter to Cal DOJ, CC'd all the way up the chain asking the obvious - "What is your authority for stating the following, etc."

See if a reply comes. If it does, examine, if not, the next step could be equally enlightening. These are things that take an attorney + a couple pieces of paper w/ letterhead, and not unreasonable amounts of time pro bono to accomplish. If the letter hits the round file, no one is out anything major, but they know people are paying attention.

OleCuss
12-23-2012, 6:37 AM
There is reference being made to "counsel".

It is all well and good to use a competent attorney, but at a minimum that attorney should talk to Brandon.

There aren't too many (any?) people who know the relevant law and the DOJ at the same level or know what buttons to punch (and how hard).

Not working with Brandon would be a mistake.

Ford8N
12-23-2012, 7:00 AM
It's interesting that these California DOJ agents can go around and threaten FFL's with made up laws or regulations and the agents supervisors don't know this is happening. And that Kamala Harris doesn't know what her supervisors are doing at the DOJ?. This is just another example that the Brady's are firmly in control of the DOJ Bureau of Firearms. Sadly nothing can be done to stop this from occurring again and again and again........

NoHeavyHitter
12-23-2012, 7:45 AM
Unless something has changed – it’s my understanding hat the DOJ is not a legislative body and therefore unable to write or pass laws. The sole duty of the DOJ is to enforce laws passed by the CA legislature, nothing more, nothing less.

It would seem that if the DOJ is using its power to harass or financially “bleed” law-abiding gun dealers – then they should be liable for abuse of their power for selective and malicious prosecution as well as improper use of taxpayer funds in the discharge of their official duties.

While it may be a long and painful process, I’m pretty sure that the DOJ will serve up some poor flunkies for their heads to roll…

We basically need to keep the pressure on. Every time the legislature spews out another unconstitutional law - we need to fight them in court. Eventually we should be able to drive the state into a deep enough financial hole that they lower the credit rating to make borrowing more money (to fight the citizens) more costly. The only thing we can really do to kill the beast is to break its back financially.

And YES - I do realize that my suggestions sound entirely self destructive since we are fighting a government entity that is using tax money collected from us to fund their fright against those very same people.

Bangzoom
12-23-2012, 7:49 AM
The agents want them for themselves

edwardm
12-23-2012, 8:14 AM
There is reference being made to "counsel".

It is all well and good to use a competent attorney, but at a minimum that attorney should talk to Brandon.

There aren't too many (any?) people who know the relevant law and the DOJ at the same level or know what buttons to punch (and how hard).

Not working with Brandon would be a mistake.

Yeah, I probably will, in one medium or another.

Mitch
12-23-2012, 11:02 AM
What pressure can they exert?

If you're operating your business within the law, then what can DOJ do that won't result in serious problems for them?

I think Wash made a good point about older FFLs with confused paperwork that they fear might not withstand scrutiny. They are easy to intimidate.

bwiese
12-23-2012, 11:04 AM
I think Wash made a good point about older FFLs with confused paperwork that they fear might not withstand scrutiny. They are easy to intimidate.


These old farts are too dumb and confuse an ATF problem with DOJ issue.

The 'old crazy books' problem is far more of an ATF issue.

Curtis
12-23-2012, 11:14 AM
Every government official is a kingdom onto himself...you can't believe some of the stuff I've heard coming from county building inspectors and DMV clerks.

I al with inspectors and plan checkers all the time. The issue always comes down to money. It delays projects and costs money to fight the system. It's typically easier to do what they want rather than be right. An FFL will lose less money stopping the sell of rebuild kits or SSE then it would take to hire a lawyer. That is we're CGF and your donations can make a difference.

Garand1911
12-23-2012, 6:08 PM
Next time when some uneducated or just dumb *** DOJ agent spouts off his own opinion, the gun shop needs to ask him/her to cite the law violation.

Purple K
12-23-2012, 6:34 PM
These FFL's need to post the names of the auditors that make up imaginary regulation. Out them!

wash
12-23-2012, 6:45 PM
These old farts are too dumb and confuse an ATF problem with DOJ issue.

The 'old crazy books' problem is far more of an ATF issue.
All true but they have seen enough FFLs go down for bad books.

I'm betting the CADOJ influence on who the ATF audits is not zero.

wildhawker
12-23-2012, 7:33 PM
I'm all for free market evolution. I do not support FFLs who cook books.

peterabbits
12-23-2012, 7:40 PM
This is ll apparently irrelevant as the gun store in question in the original OP just announced on FB that they are closing up shop.

nothinghere2c
12-23-2012, 7:44 PM
Yep.

here comes the Bran-Hammer :hammer:

Dantedamean
12-23-2012, 7:45 PM
Amazing, what's it going to take for people to stop putting up with this crap.

keenkeen
12-23-2012, 7:49 PM
This is ll apparently irrelevant as the gun store in question in the original OP just announced on FB that they are closing up shop.

Very strange chain of events...it is too bad, they are a very good shop.

:(

INFIDEL151
12-23-2012, 8:02 PM
The FFL should contact me at bcombs@calffl.org.

THIS^^^^^

Brewerygulch
12-23-2012, 8:19 PM
If it wasn't legal they would have cited the shop or closed them down.

MOA1
12-23-2012, 8:40 PM
Do everything by the book. On your side and theirs. You fulfill your obligations, they fulfill theirs. If they make a request that is lawful, comply, if it is not, do not comply. Fight every unlawful request, you must do this. It is your duty to do so.

bruss01
12-23-2012, 9:06 PM
A FFL opened earlier this year close to me and according to the owners, DOJ flat out told them not to SSE. When they mentioned another local shop that does it the DOJ said something like "We're very aware of what they do, we've been keeping an eye on them. Don't expect them to be doing the SSE for much longer."

Sounds to me like DOJ doesn't like SSE and rebuild kits being sold but they don't have a PC to stop it. They're using fear and intimidation as far as I can tell.

First words out of an FFL's mouth should be "show me the code that prohibits it".

There isn't one. If that is an "implied" threat such as "whoops? what's this we found in your store?!" while pulling some kind of contraband out of their pocket, as in, manufactured evidence of some kind intending to make a bogus charge - then it needs to come to light. You cannot rule innocent men. Either these FFL's are innocent of any wrongdoing and simply don't know that the DOJ has no power to twist their arm... or they are in fact guilty of some transgressions that the DOJ has been letting "slide" and now they won't get to do that if they make Mr. DOJ man unhappy.

The fact that attornies are not all over this like flies on BS speaks volumes IMHO.

If the practice were illegal, they would have busted them for it already. It could be they are setting up a "straw man" or other type of entrapmet sceario for the dealership they said would "not be doing it much longer". That kind of corruption in goverment is hard to root out, and most odious. People need to talk about these things openly. That more don't, speaks to the corruption being rampant.

EM2
12-23-2012, 9:06 PM
lol. from what I know its legal.

However the government can do whatever they want. :rolleyes:

So the local gun shop here in Clovis was visited by the DOJ recently and told to stop selling magazine rebuild kits. I was going to buy some AR and AK rebuild kits today and they are not allowed to sell them. Anyone know of a law against selling rebuild kits? Is this legal?

Thanks


which shop was this?

neubine
12-23-2012, 9:24 PM
Just FYI look like "We The People Firearms" has decided to close up shop, do to the "political climate"

https://www.facebook.com/pages/We-The-People-Firearms-Accessories/191279700920798

keenkeen
12-23-2012, 9:26 PM
Just FYI look like "We The People Firearms" has decided to close up shop, do to the "political climate"

https://www.facebook.com/pages/We-The-People-Firearms-Accessories/191279700920798

Yup, already mentioned above.

uhlan1
12-23-2012, 9:35 PM
Power corrupts.....

Johnnyfres
12-23-2012, 10:28 PM
Yes it is true, the owner is now closing shop. It's too bad that this is happening. I hate to see another shop go under due to "up and coming laws" that may or may not be there. Also this guy specialized in AK-47's and Ar-15's. I wish he would have put a little more fight in before just closing the doors.

strokesdmb
12-23-2012, 10:35 PM
That sucks. Was a decent shop and good people.

Johnnyfres
12-23-2012, 10:47 PM
I asked Ryan to reconsider closing. Sent Brandon's info also. I hope he does contact him.