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View Full Version : Atf advocates selective profiling! extra! extra!


CRTguns
08-13-2007, 10:26 PM
This letter is nuts. I've been meaning to post it for months now- not the last paragraph. This leaves the final determination up to me, the dealer. I'm sure that this also gives them permission to hold me responsible when my customer goes nuts and offs his wife and neighbor then his own dog.

CRTguns
08-13-2007, 10:26 PM
...

aplinker
08-13-2007, 10:33 PM
As a human being, I was upset and angry about what happened at VT.

When I see someone say it in an ATF briefing, it just looks like it was designed to be filtered as a press release, so stupid sheeple will think the government cares.

Ridiculous.

On the bright side, I don't read anything new in that letter. It reads like, "Remember those regulations we have that didn't stop this guy? Now we're really, really making certain that they're followed and won't stop him again!"

Piper
08-14-2007, 5:35 AM
Classic government CYA BS.

mike100
08-14-2007, 5:47 AM
The letter cites the relevant code to see what makes one officially 'crazy', but I always had to wonder about all the different scenarios that would disqual a buyer.

For instance (and it's a family joke), my Aunt took too many drugs one night in 1977 and was put(maybe voluntarily-I don't know) in the hospital(funny farm) because she didn't know who she was for a couple of weeks. When they discharged her, they gave a certificate saying that she is of sound mind and NOT insane...anyways, we joke about that because she says she is the only one in the family who is certified sane and has paper to prove it. It also occurs to me that that wouldn't matter if the 'man' ever found out she was in the nut house. These days with computerized records and all...

GSequoia
08-14-2007, 8:01 AM
Is it just me, or do other people hate the phrase "Mentally defective."

Yankee Clipper
08-14-2007, 8:07 AM
Is it just me, or do other people hate the phrase "Mentally defective."

I agree but they have formed their own support group, headed by one Sara Brady.

thedrickel
08-14-2007, 8:42 AM
IIRC they sent these out to C&R's too, and I trashed it after the first sentence.

Fjold
08-14-2007, 10:05 AM
Is it just me, or do other people hate the phrase "Mentally defective."

Only if it is applied to me.

:D

CRTguns
08-14-2007, 11:02 AM
2nd paragraph, last sentence- "As your Partners...."
All touchy feely now.

CalNRA
08-14-2007, 11:14 AM
2nd paragraph, last sentence- "As your Partners...."
All touchy feely now.

well, they could be your partners.

Like partners that shuts you down for mis-spelling "California" on the 4473.:rolleyes:

TKM
08-14-2007, 11:30 AM
Maybe they mean "domestic partners"?

After all, they do seem to like performing similar activities to gunowners.






Not that there's anything wrong with that.





The first part, not the second part.

xenophobe
08-14-2007, 4:03 PM
This leaves the final determination up to me, the dealer.

And what has changed?

Seriously, you wouldn't sell or release a firearm to someone who seemed suicidal, or if a parent, spouse or sibling came in and let you know they were desperate, suicidal or under psychological treatment would you? You wouldn't sell or release a firearm to someone who was obviously drunk would you?

I've been put in these situations a number of times and have had to make that judgment call myself.

Owning a firearm is a right, but as a dealer you must be responsible and make judgments like that from time to time.

CRTguns
08-14-2007, 5:11 PM
There are blatant clues that one may not be "OK".
But should I not sell a gun to a guy named Singh or Abu?

Sometimes they don't appear to be ineligible to posess a gun.

Well, I did sell a gun to a guy with a name like those above, 4 years ago, and he shot himself next day. Later we fond out that his family had interned him for observation, and he was on pills for mental health. Should I ask for a list of prescription meds, call his doctor, call his family, etc...
I PAY the DOJ to do the background check.

Was not my responsibility or problem.

thedrickel
08-14-2007, 5:48 PM
There are blatant clues that one may not be "OK".
But should I not sell a gun to a guy named Singh or Abu?

Sometimes they don't appear to be ineligible to posess a gun.

Well, I did sell a gun to a guy with a name like those above, 4 years ago, and he shot himself next day. Later we fond out that his family had interned him for observation, and he was on pills for mental health. Should I ask for a list of prescription meds, call his doctor, call his family, etc...
I PAY the DOJ to do the background check.

Was not my responsibility or problem.

So he was mentally unstable, what does his name (& implied ethnicity) have to do with it? :censored:

I'm trying to hold my tongue. Really.

Pthfndr
08-14-2007, 6:24 PM
I got the same letter and I just have an 03 C&R FFL.

xenophobe
08-14-2007, 7:02 PM
Well, I did sell a gun to a guy with a name like those above, 4 years ago, and he shot himself next day. Later we fond out that his family had interned him for observation, and he was on pills for mental health. Should I ask for a list of prescription meds, call his doctor, call his family, etc...
I PAY the DOJ to do the background check.

And if his parents or siblings came in and sincerely told you that he was having serious psychological problems, you would have sold and delivered the gun anyways?

xenophobe
08-15-2007, 7:11 PM
*bump for a response*

JPglee1
08-15-2007, 7:23 PM
And if his parents or siblings came in and sincerely told you that he was having serious psychological problems, you would have sold and delivered the gun anyways?

I would, cuz when you turn 18 you stop being mommy's possession....

I once had a pharmacist try to call my mom to tell her that I was getting pain meds for my tooth extraction.. my mom was like "So what, he's free, american and over 18...." lol

Its not yer job to monitor someone, its not the governments job either...its that persons own job and if they can't hack it THEN you react...

ITs all about reactive not proactive... proactive turns into Big Brother-itis real fast.

I can wipe my own arse, thanks...


JP

artherd
08-15-2007, 11:55 PM
And if his parents or siblings came in and sincerely told you that he was having serious psychological problems, you would have sold and delivered the gun anyways?

I'd tell them to have him committed and ajucated by a judge, so he would come up as a PP.

I'd also tell them if you truely care about person X, you should be talking to them about this, not me.

In the end I'd probally void the transaction, but the above is the proper procedure.

CRTguns
08-16-2007, 11:36 PM
On several occasions, I haver halted a sale because a family memebr comes in and tells me the story. I will halt a sale at ANY little sign of trouble. I once refunded $ and cancelled background check just cause his wife contacted me and thought she was in danger of him shooting her. Reasonable or not- I won't chance it.

The comment on race- Cho killed people. The Muhammad truck sniper guy killed people, etc... My intention was to illustrate where can we draw the line short of making uneducated and unfounded assumptions about somebody's intentions with their gun. If history shows that being mentally ill causes injury or death- what should being Muslim say...
"Will blow S""" up and kill christians cause Allah tells me to...???"
How far should we interpret this?

simonov
08-17-2007, 11:51 AM
If history shows that being mentally ill causes injury or death- what should being Muslim say...

My wife makes a mean hummus.

She also has filled out a 4473. Luckily, nothing on there about religion (dunno what she checked for "race").

CRTguns
08-18-2007, 10:53 PM
That's why it's stupid that The FFLs would be expected to differentiate mentally stable from unfit to own a firearm- as it is stupid to assume that someone of asian blood might be a murderous terrorist and have bad intentions with his gun.
I honestly believe that 90% of us are a little mental- If this were not true- why are we on CALGUNS. we'd be on wyomingguns, or texasguns...

LAK Supply
08-18-2007, 11:21 PM
Are you implying that all of us Asians are insane? What is this crap?! You sir are a racist!


PS: Figured I'd throw a little Firing Lines spin on this one! :)