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Gary O
12-21-2012, 8:55 AM
On occassion I see folks around here who seem to be opposed to joining the NRA. They usually to not state thier reasons. Can any of you folks speculate on why they would be so against the idea? Thanks...

zhyla
12-21-2012, 9:01 AM
The ones I usually see are:

1. Don't like the spam/scare tactics that NRA uses to drive donations.
2. Don't like the NRA's non-firearm positions. For example, there was speculation that they pushed for 2A incorporation via due process because they didn't want to open the floodgates for gay marriage and recreation drug cases.

Occasionally you'll see a "what has NRA done for us?" reason but that's just someone who doesn't understand what goes on in DC.

hawk1
12-21-2012, 9:06 AM
There are people that do things and there are people that ride the coat tails of those that do things.

Gary O
12-21-2012, 9:12 AM
There are people that do things and there are people that ride the coat tails of those that do things.


huh?

voiceofreason
12-21-2012, 9:13 AM
The NRA is not perfect. But they are the very well respected (and hated) 800 pound gorilla that strolls the hallways of the Capitol that helps to keep anti-gun politicians in check.

The fact that the media and Dems demonize the NRA so much shows that.

We make fun of and aren't afraid of the Brady campaign because they are weak.

We would not be doing so if they were the antitheis to the NRA.

voiceofreason
12-21-2012, 9:16 AM
If you want to see results: Second Amendment Foundation

Harder line than the NRA (though less effect): Gun Owners of America

results in CA: Calguns Foundation

there are other groups worthy of your support, membership, and money in addition to the NRA

though the more members and money the NRA has, the bigger and stronger our gorilla gets


If Godzilla is trashing Tokyo and King Kong is the only thing available, better to support the big ape than to sit back and talk trash about the big ape and watch Tokyo get leveled by Godzilla.


Yes, I know that was a HORRIBLE analogy.

mag360
12-21-2012, 9:22 AM
Stfu and join the NRA. You can still donate to whoever you feel is more effective but the reality is we need the NRA IN WASHINGTON as a strong voice.

winnre
12-21-2012, 9:30 AM
They obviously sold my name to mailing lists, I guess to get even more money. I complained and they said they'd stop but it did not. I asked to have my membership deleted at that point, and you can no just quit, you need to write a letter that gets voted on, etc. They are all about themselves.

12voltguy
12-21-2012, 9:39 AM
I am a member
why out of 80,million gun owners are there only 4 million nra members?
the nra rubs people the wrong way

can you fathom the power they would have with say 40 million members!

we could take back our rights........:)

CodaMan
12-21-2012, 9:41 AM
Just signed up for a 3 year membership

SpunkyJivl
12-21-2012, 9:51 AM
Anything that progressives libs (re-branded socialist party) and the vile worthless media hold in contempt, I am all for.

Demonfart
12-21-2012, 10:00 AM
I am one of the folks you are speaking of. I'll go ahead and bite this morning.

Reasons I do not support the NRA:

1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors, their actions show no inclination towards the interests of the people or even elastic and reasonable thinking or debate.

2. I disagree with almost every political cause they support.

3. It's too easy for me to see through the walls of their poor logic and (what I consider predatory) politics.

4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.

Reasons I generally do not speak about it on this site:

1. I do not come here for the politics (although I do occasionally drop in so I can see how some of you that I do not share opinions with think...you never know when, where or who you might learn something new from); I almost solely come here for information and dialog pertaining to the legal firearms I may own or be interested in learning more about.

2. Why go to church just to tell the parishoners that their prophets are wrong?

StratORcaster
12-21-2012, 10:03 AM
Just signed up for a 3 year membership

Me too!

Rusty_Rebar
12-21-2012, 10:03 AM
I am one of the folks you are speaking of. I'll go ahead and bite this morning.

Reasons I do not support the NRA:

1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors, their actions show no inclination towards the interests of the people or even elastic and reasonable thinking or debate.

2. I disagree with almost every political cause they support.

3. It's too easy for me to see through the walls of their poor logic and (what I consider predatory) politics.

4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.

Reasons I generally do not speak about it on this site:

1. I do not come here for the politics (although I do occasionally drop in so I can see how some of you that I do not share opinions with think...you never know when, where or who you might learn something new from); I almost solely come here for information and dialog pertaining to the legal firearms I may own or be interested in learning more about.

2. Why go to church just to tell the parishoners that their prophets are wrong?

+1 to most of this.

mag360
12-21-2012, 10:14 AM
Well thanks to demonfart and rusty rebar for not being NRA members. Perhaps you can tell me of an organization that has national reach on gun issues and can call a press conference aired on every network that supports everything you want?

Rusty_Rebar
12-21-2012, 10:24 AM
Well thanks to demonfart and rusty rebar for not being NRA members. Perhaps you can tell me of an organization that has national reach on gun issues and can call a press conference aired on every network that supports everything you want?

I am very pro-gun. I would have no issue with allowing responsible adults access to just about any weapon. I am about as pro-gun as they come.

I do not like the politics of the NRA. They lie, and mislead and cause a lot of division within the country. Don't mistake that for me saying they should not exist, far be it from me to tell others how to organize, but I am not going to support them.

I resent being demonized because I don't agree with most ppl on this forum about NRA membership.

elSquid
12-21-2012, 10:31 AM
As I see it:

1) The NRA has a strong "not invented here" syndrome, and often does not play well with other gun rights groups.

2) The fundrasing arm is extremely aggressive, and does engage in tactics that are questionable - the best example is the unsolicited DVDs that are sent out to members with a "bill".

Despite that, it is worthwhile to be a member. They are the big guys and they do wield a lot of political clout - and politicians and the media know it.

Please join the NRA if you haven't already. Thanks!

-- Michael

opos
12-21-2012, 10:35 AM
Well thanks to demonfart and rusty rebar for not being NRA members. Perhaps you can tell me of an organization that has national reach on gun issues and can call a press conference aired on every network that supports everything you want?


Just for grins..Fox did not cover nor air the NRA press conference...they were talking about the fiscal "cliff"...I had to go to MSNBC and or the financial channel to see the speech ..... strange that Fox, the more "balanced" of the cable "news networks" didn't attend...

mt4design
12-21-2012, 10:36 AM
I did rejoin the NRA yesterday.

However, I had let my membership lapse because, honestly, I didn't think they were militant enough, IMHO.

Civil liberties require passion and I believe people should be emotionally vested in keeping them.

There is a very, very, very thin line that each of our liberties hangs by which can be easily severed and stripped away from us. Lose the Second and fighting to keep the rest is virtually impossible.

Mike

Neo Sharkey
12-21-2012, 10:49 AM
I did rejoin the NRA yesterday.

However, I had let my membership lapse because, honestly, I didn't think they were militant enough, IMHO.

Civil liberties require passion and I believe people should be emotionally vested in keeping them.

There is a very, very, very thin line that each of our liberties hangs by which can be easily severed and stripped away from us. Lose the Second and fighting to keep the rest is virtually impossible.

Mike

Same here, I was a lapsed member as well. I did send an email to them yesterday, though...I explained why I was no longer a member, but that I would sign up for a lifetime membership if they came out strongly against the gun ban.

On that note...does anyone have any of those $300 life membership links handy? :)

Demonfart
12-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Well thanks to demonfart and rusty rebar for not being NRA members. Perhaps you can tell me of an organization that has national reach on gun issues and can call a press conference aired on every network that supports everything you want?

For me personally, that doesn't seem to exist, I am incapable of reasoning in absolutes like that. I think the only way any organization will agree with me 100% is if I bend my own morals and beliefs in some way to meet those upheld by that organization (your last sentence describes an impossibility, I'm guessing somewhat intentionally, but I enjoy a little snark with brunch so no worries).

I am wholeheartedly behind the basic idea of responsible adults owning legal firearms. I have no problems with that basic mechanic nor do I take issue with businesses that act with compassion and positive intent profiting from the legal sales or manufacturing of firearms.

My problem is that the only organizations that I have personally researched in the arena of firearms ownership do not seem to retain the ability to ebb or flow. Times and circumstances will always call for debate and flexibility, one cannot always get what one wants to steal a wise man's quote...the path of blind resistance is not one I choose to tread.

parcours
12-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Rusty Rebar: I do not like the politics of the NRA. They lie, and mislead and cause a lot of division within the country.

Really... And what organization doesn't skew their point of view to their side? The Brady folks have lied since day one. They spew their anti-2A hate and make people think we're the problem.

One of the issue we have is Liberal gun owners that think the 2A is about hunting... Get it through your skull, if we don't have a powerful voice the new type of weapon category that the media has come up with, the semi-auto, what ever that weapon ends up being, will be banned by this administration.

It's not about division, it's about standing up for what is right. Tell this to the populous of Cuba, Germany, Korea and other dictator regimes.

I just happen to come from one of those!

mikestesting
12-21-2012, 10:53 AM
Me too!

your signature GIF makes me LOL. haha.

CBruce
12-21-2012, 10:58 AM
On occassion I see folks around here who seem to be opposed to joining the NRA. They usually to not state thier reasons. Can any of you folks speculate on why they would be so against the idea? Thanks...

I was seriously considering it, until they came out to address an international audience by saying we should sacrifice one civil right for another.

ojisan
12-21-2012, 10:58 AM
Well thanks to demonfart and rusty rebar for not being NRA members. Perhaps you can tell me of an organization that has national reach on gun issues and can call a press conference aired on every network that supports everything you want?

They do not and have not supported everything I want.

Seems to me that the NRA has no love for EBRs and might throw them under the bus.
Also it's sad to see how they did not support a proper incorporation effort years ago and left us to wait for years...only now have others got this done and then the NRA claims credit for it.
If you read the history of the NRA and gun control, you might wonder sometimes who's side they really are on.
The NRA would loose a lot of power and money if there are no pro-gun efforts to be made, so it is to their advantage to keep guns threatened and restricted.
We'll see how the latest round of anti-gun measures plays out, and what the NRA does.
Will they broker a back-room deal that surrenders semi-autos to protect hunters with bolt actions?
I would not be surprised.
While I am a NRA memeber and also donate to NRA-ILA, I really don't expect much from them.

Right now my hopes are with this guy and the 2AF:
:gura:

speedrrracer
12-21-2012, 11:09 AM
On occassion I see folks around here who seem to be opposed to joining the NRA. They usually to not state thier reasons. Can any of you folks speculate on why they would be so against the idea? Thanks...

I think you are not correctly understanding what you are reading.

I'm pretty vocal in listing the NRA's failings, but I'm a lifetime member. In fact, of all the people I know who are critical of the NRA, all of them are members.

From my perspective, I get upset because I feel they could be so much more effective for our 2A rights if they were to make certain changes. I hate to see them waste money and scare off potential 2A supporters -- we simply need everyone we can get.

But that doesn't change the fact that I (and others) recognize they are the only gun rights organization packing that level of bigtime political clout. To my knowledge, there is no one who can fill their shoes, and there may never be, therefore they receive my financial support.

b.faust
12-21-2012, 11:09 AM
I am one of the folks you are speaking of. I'll go ahead and bite this morning.

Reasons I do not support the NRA:

1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors, their actions show no inclination towards the interests of the people or even elastic and reasonable thinking or debate.

2. I disagree with almost every political cause they support.

3. It's too easy for me to see through the walls of their poor logic and (what I consider predatory) politics.

4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.


I'm not going to argue any of your points, they're your opinion, and you're absolutely entitled to it.

I'm only going to say this. Odds are you're never going to find ANY organization that you agree with 100%. Do I agree with every single thing the NRA says/does? No.
Am I a member? Hell yes.
I also donate to CGF and SAF.

For far less than it costs to buy a rifle or pistol you can sign up to make sure you can HAVE that rifle/pistol.

If you wait around for the 'perfect' group or one with the 'right' answers you'll be waiting a long time.

Otherwise you're just a guy who owns some guns and complains on a gun board but doesn't do much about it one way or another.

B.

SuperSet
12-21-2012, 11:14 AM
I'm an NRA member but reluctantly so thanks to the points mentioned earlier. I also believe that their leadership seriously needs new, energetic and fresh ideas as I'm tired of seeing LaPierre up there, especially after seeing the press conference this morning.

But they're the biggest gorilla in the room and politics makes strange bedfellows so it's a given that I'm gonna support them.

SuperSet
12-21-2012, 11:15 AM
Double

trevorlc
12-21-2012, 11:16 AM
Personally I'm pro NRA.

I would say if you don't like NRA whatever your reason pick another group that supports us like second amendment foundation, cal guns foundation, California rifle and pistol, etc Just look for any good victory we have had in the last 5 years and join/donate to any of the organizations involved on our side.

I love this has spurred everyone to donate, join and renew me include I was slacking for a while... But if we keep this up after the excitement wears off how much more progress can we make when the antis are not so focused with recent horror in their minds.

elSquid
12-21-2012, 11:23 AM
Seems to me that the NRA has no love for EBRs and might throw them under the bus.


I disagree. 20 years ago - when EBRs were no where near as popular as they are today - the NRA fought against the 94 AWB. When it passed, the NRA did its best to burn those that voted for it. In Bill Clinton's words:

"On November 8, we got the living daylights beat out of us, losing eight Senate races and fifty-four House seats, the largest defeat for our party since 1946....The NRA had a great night. They beat both Speaker Tom Foley and Jack Brooks, two of the ablest members of Congress, who had warned me this would happen. Foley was the first Speaker to be defeated in more than a century. Jack Brooks had supported the NRA for years and had led the fight against the assault weapons ban in the House, but as chairman of the Judiciary Committee he had voted for the overall crime bill even after the ban was put into it. The NRA was an unforgiving master: one strike and you're out. The gun lobby claimed to have defeated nineteen of the twenty-four members on its hit list. They did at least that much damage...." (Pages 629-630)

--William J. Clinton, My Life

Will they broker a back-room deal that surrenders semi-autos to protect hunters with bolt actions?


No - that would be the end of the NRA. The reality is that the pro-gun movement is winning and there is little reason to back off now.

-- Michael

n6vmo
12-21-2012, 11:37 AM
http://i.imgur.com/p8IWx.jpg

Excelsior
12-21-2012, 11:44 AM
There are people that do things and there are people that ride the coat tails of those that do things.

Yup! Free-ride whiners!

Excelsior
12-21-2012, 11:45 AM
If you want to see results: Second Amendment Foundation

Harder line than the NRA (though less effect): Gun Owners of America

results in CA: Calguns Foundation

there are other groups worthy of your support, membership, and money in addition to the NRA

though the more members and money the NRA has, the bigger and stronger our gorilla gets


If Godzilla is trashing Tokyo and King Kong is the only thing available, better to support the big ape than to sit back and talk trash about the big ape and watch Tokyo get leveled by Godzilla.


Yes, I know that was a HORRIBLE analogy.

What has the SAF ever done? They don't have never the influence the NRA does.

Excelsior
12-21-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm an NRA member but reluctantly so thanks to the points mentioned earlier. I also believe that their leadership seriously needs new, energetic and fresh ideas as I'm tired of seeing LaPierre up there, especially after seeing the press conference this morning.

But they're the biggest gorilla in the room and politics makes strange bedfellows so it's a given that I'm gonna support them.

Why? He did a more than credible job.

gundad
12-21-2012, 11:51 AM
People might say NO to the NRA because the NRA plays the game. Dont hate the player, hate the game.

spetsnaz
12-21-2012, 11:54 AM
im still going to donate

SuperSet
12-21-2012, 11:58 AM
Why? He did a more than credible job.

I don't agree and as mentioned in the other thread, I thought the delivery was awkward and overall lacking in polish and poise. The NRA has millions of members and we can't find a young, fresh, well-spoken veteran or police officer to represent us?

daveblandston6
12-21-2012, 11:59 AM
I support several organizations and individuals including Gun Owners of America, Oath Keepers, Sipsey Street Irregulars, CGF, The Nutnfancy Project, JPFO, CRPA, etc. but I let my NRA membership expire because I feel that NRA is willing to compromise on serious issues that should not and cannot be compromised on. I write letters, make phone calls, attend meetings, talk to neighbors and co-workers, collect petition signatures, and do what I can to defend the Second Amendment. I know many or even most of the folks on this board will consider me a non-team player but I'd like to encourage everyone to do what he feels is best and "get in the fight" one way or another.

Also, NRA sold my info to a third party who sent me a DVD and tried to bill me for it. That was unethical. Even my credit card company hasn't stooped that low.

bwiese
12-21-2012, 12:05 PM
Reasons I do not support the NRA:

1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors, their actions show no inclination towards the interests of the people or even elastic and reasonable thinking or debate.


Oh gawd another supposed pro-gunner.

If you don't protect the firearms industry the 2A withers and dies.

[How do you think free speech would fare with internet restrictions?]

This was why the PLCAA was so important.

BTW, the industry is actually represented more by NSSF than NRA, so you really might wanna check your facts.
[/quote]


2. I disagree with almost every political cause they support.


I haven't seen them take issue with busing, healthcare etc.
Generally they've been sole focus on guns although a few board members have other agendas.


3. It's too easy for me to see through the walls of their poor logic and (what I consider predatory) politics.


Predators eat well. Are you saying we should surrender?


4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.


If you do not believe in the 2A, WTF are you doing here?

You have a hobby, not a right.


I almost solely come here for information and dialog pertaining to the legal firearms I may own or be interested in learning more about.

And much of that comes from the battles we're fighting.

Kharn
12-21-2012, 12:10 PM
Which other gun-rights organization can call a press conference and get 30 minutes (plus additional discussion by the talking heads afterwards) on two major cable news networks plus CSpan radio?

That is why I'm an NRA life member (I'm also an SAF life member for their work in Maryland).

voiceofreason
12-21-2012, 12:12 PM
What has the SAF ever done? They don't have never the influence the NRA does.

Established through Supreme Court that the 2nd Amendment is an INDIVIDUAL right.

The SAF is incredibly influential in the 2A fight.

mag360
12-21-2012, 12:33 PM
For me personally, that doesn't seem to exist, I am incapable of reasoning in absolutes like that. I think the only way any organization will agree with me 100% is if I bend my own morals and beliefs in some way to meet those upheld by that organization (your last sentence describes an impossibility, I'm guessing somewhat intentionally, but I enjoy a little snark with brunch so no worries).

I am wholeheartedly behind the basic idea of responsible adults owning legal firearms. I have no problems with that basic mechanic nor do I take issue with businesses that act with compassion and positive intent profiting from the legal sales or manufacturing of firearms.

My problem is that the only organizations that I have personally researched in the arena of firearms ownership do not seem to retain the ability to ebb or flow. Times and circumstances will always call for debate and flexibility, one cannot always get what one wants to steal a wise man's quote...the path of blind resistance is not one I choose to tread.

And your point is? You cannot stay relevant if you do not take a side. There is NO organization that functions on your silly little stubborn "well they dont support everything I want". Of course my last comment was an impossibility, we all hang together ring a bell? Get on the train or get run over.

mag360
12-21-2012, 12:35 PM
Which other gun-rights organization can call a press conference and get 30 minutes (plus additional discussion by the talking heads afterwards) on two major cable news networks plus CSpan radio?

That is why I'm an NRA life member (I'm also an SAF life member for their work in Maryland).

THIS. The national rifle and pro marijuana anti immigration pro immigratoon anti drug pro unions pro gay marriage anti abortion association does not exist.

mag360
12-21-2012, 12:40 PM
I am one of the folks you are speaking of. I'll go ahead and bite this morning.

Reasons I do not support the NRA

4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.



Please tell what YOU think the 2A means.

bigcalidave
12-21-2012, 1:16 PM
At this point, if you aren't an NRA member you aren't interested in keeping your guns. They will be going to bat for us. 100%. The group that you think you want, The one that doesn't do fundraising because it annoys you, but still has the money to fight this on a national scale doesn't exist. The one which matches all your political beliefs perfectly, not gonna happen.. The country is already divided, read the news or look at the fighting in comments and forums everywhere. The NRA is on our side, and they are the king of the ring.

Excelsior
12-21-2012, 1:20 PM
I don't agree and as mentioned in the other thread, I thought the delivery was awkward and overall lacking in polish and poise. The NRA has millions of members and we can't find a young, fresh, well-spoken veteran or police officer to represent us?

Yeah, you're right. Wayne didn't have a lot of "polish and poise" -- nor does he typically in other situations. He's also not the most photogenic individual in the world.

Yet at this time in history on this subject, both worked to the NRA's advantage. He didn't come off like a back-slapping politician with a mouthful of porcelain veneers. He more than got the job done.

The one thing I think the NRA must do is really go after building its membership. It needs to do that in a less combative manner within a far greater audience. It has something like 4 million members today. I suspect that could be doubled with the right plan.

Excelsior
12-21-2012, 1:22 PM
At this point, if you aren't an NRA member you aren't interested in keeping your guns. They will be going to bat for us. 100%. The group that you think you want, The one that doesn't do fundraising because it annoys you, but still has the money to fight this on a national scale doesn't exist. The one which matches all your political beliefs perfectly, not gonna happen.. The country is already divided, read the news or look at the fighting in comments and forums everywhere. The NRA is on our side, and they are the king of the ring.

Amen. Feel free to join other groups. Feel free to give money elsewhere. Free free to write letters and make calls. But invest $10-35.00 and 90 seconds of your time with the NRA before doing those other things.

bigcalidave
12-21-2012, 1:23 PM
It wasn't about having someone represent us, you don't see Obama sending someone else out to speak for him. When it comes down to the big national spotlight, the boss comes out.

myk
12-21-2012, 1:23 PM
So uh...what's this about DVD's with bills in them?

CEDaytonaRydr
12-21-2012, 1:27 PM
I donate to the CGF because I want to see my money stay in CA. I've always said that I would re-join the NRA, once Roberti-Roos was repealed. It really bugged me that they didn't do more to stop that from becoming law. Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy. I know the NRA is a collective group of members, and that there is a "Cal-NRA" that is supporsed to watch out for Californians but I haven't seen much in the way of results. I still can't get a CCW in LA county, Roberti Roos is still law, the "safe handgun list" is still not being contented, etc. That's why I'm not an NRA member; I'm not saying I never will be again, I'm just going to have to see some results.


Flame away... :hide:

SanPedroShooter
12-21-2012, 1:32 PM
So uh...what's this about DVD's with bills in them?

Dont even sweat that. A while back supposedly the NRA was sending out a DVD as a 'gift' with a bill attached to pay for it.

Of course US law provides that no one has to pay for any unsolicted mail like that.

I've been a member for a almost long enough to vote in NRA elections, and I have half a dozen, and growing, gift membership list.

I have never recieved one bit of unsolicted mail. Never a phone call, nothing. And all my gift members tell the same story.

Have them take you off the list if you dont like getting junk mail. In fact, when you sign up, tell them to put you on the no call/mail list and dont give them phone number.

If your issue for not joing the org that is defending your civil right to arms is junk mail, you might be a douche.... But I digress.

mag360
12-21-2012, 1:33 PM
I donate to the CGF because I want to see my money stay in CA. I've always said that I would re-join the NRA, once Roberti-Roos was repealed. It really bugged me that they didn't do more to stop that from becoming law. Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy. I know the NRA is a collective group of members, and that there is a "Cal-NRA" that is supporsed to watch out for Californians but I haven't seen much in the way of results. I still can't get a CCW in LA county, Roberti Roos is still law, the "safe handgun list" is still not being contented, etc. That's why I'm not an NRA member; I'm not saying I never will be again, I'm just going to have to see some results.


Flame away... :hide:

Not being an NRA member isnt helping them get results. CA is the ONLY state with a fulltime NRA lobbyist, still think they do nothing?

SanPedroShooter
12-21-2012, 1:35 PM
All these people that are just riding on coat tails, that wont pitch in a measly 25 or 35 bucks cause 'they dont do enough for california' remind me of a little kid throwing a tantrum.

What do you want them to do? Wave a magic wand? Its not their fault you have no idea what the NRA does in California. And I dont feel like telling you. Google it.

bwiese
12-21-2012, 1:40 PM
I donate to the CGF because I want to see my money stay in CA. I've always said that I would re-join the NRA, once Roberti-Roos was repealed. It really bugged me that they didn't do more to stop that from becoming law.

Speak up when you know something, sonny.

They were opposing. You just weren't watching.

Our "friends" in the GOP really "helped" us, btw.

Remember, Roberti-Roos was signed by a REPUBLICAN governor and with connivance of senior GOP legislators, and aided by turncoat "duck hunters" and "Thirty Caliber Idiots" wanting to sell out and protect their Garands and goose guns.


[qupte]
Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy.
[/quote]

I personally know NRA staff in CA and they're hardworking SOBs working under near-impossible odds.

BTW, if you wanna know why you can have an OLL in California due to the "the list being frozen", that's due to NRA. If you wanna know why microstamping passed but didn't go anywhere, that's the NRA.

I'm getting tired of talking to idiots.

SuperSet
12-21-2012, 1:47 PM
Yeah, you're right. Wayne didn't have a lot of "polish and poise" -- nor does he typically in other situations. He's also not the most photogenic individual in the world.

Yet at this time in history on this subject, both worked to the NRA's advantage. He didn't come off like a back-slapping politician with a mouthful of porcelain veneers. He more than got the job done.

The one thing I think the NRA must do is really go after building its membership. It needs to do that in a less combative manner within a far greater audience. It has something like 4 million members today. I suspect that could be doubled with the right plan.

Yes, your last paragraph is very important, especially at a time like this.
I would like the NRA to take a critical look at their image, how it comes across since the core message is sound and morally right. We are the good guys. I just want that message to be delivered in the clearest, most effective form for the majority of Americans who are on the fence who may not be gun owners themselves but may know their neighbors who are responsible, law abiding and well-adjusted gunowners. Image matters very much in this age.

Rusty_Rebar
12-21-2012, 1:53 PM
All these people that are just riding on coat tails, that wont pitch in a measly 25 or 35 bucks cause 'they dont do enough for california' remind me of a little kid throwing a tantrum.

What do you want them to do? Wave a magic wand? Its not their fault you have no idea what the NRA does in California. And I dont feel like telling you. Google it.

I am more than happy to donate three times that amount to causes I believe in. The NRA is hypocritical and are not just a gun rights group, they are obviously a pro-Republican group. I hold Republicans in the same regard that I hold Democrats (which is not high), and I will not contribute my money to an organization that supports candidates with anti-liberty views.

For example. In the last election the NRA supported they guy who signed an Assault Weapons Ban, and demonized the guy who never did anything with gun control except make it legal to carry in national parks and to transport your guns on Amtrak.

I know this is hard for you guys to hear, but those that are in favor of gun rights are not limited to Republicans.

I am pro-liberty. I am not aware of a single politician that has that stance, and cannot abide my money going to some guy who has views that are antithetical to mine.

Gun ownership is not an issue that belongs in the political sphere. It is a fundamental right, constitutionally protected. I have seen CGF do more work in the last 3 or 4 years to further that goal, and make more progress with that than I have seen the NRA do in the last 50.

Just because I do not support the NRA does not mean I do not treasure my 2A rights, it just means that the NRA leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Meplat
12-21-2012, 1:54 PM
I am one of the folks you are speaking of. I'll go ahead and bite this morning.

Reasons I do not support the NRA:

1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors, their actions show no inclination towards the interests of the people or even elastic and reasonable thinking or debate.

2. I disagree with almost every political cause they support.

3. It's too easy for me to see through the walls of their poor logic and (what I consider predatory) politics.

4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.

Reasons I generally do not speak about it on this site:

1. I do not come here for the politics (although I do occasionally drop in so I can see how some of you that I do not share opinions with think...you never know when, where or who you might learn something new from); I almost solely come here for information and dialog pertaining to the legal firearms I may own or be interested in learning more about.

2. Why go to church just to tell the parishoners that their prophets are wrong?

Well you got at least one thing right!

hornswaggled
12-21-2012, 1:56 PM
It's like refusing to fight in combat because you think the general and other commanders are *******s, make bad decisions, and don't treat the troops very nice. Meanwhile enemy mortars are falling in your head.

Anchors
12-21-2012, 1:57 PM
I'm buying my girlfriend a membership right now.
I was skeptical that they might sell us out today, but I was wrong and I plan to make reparations for that lack of trust with my wallet.
Throw some cash at the NRA-ILA specifically and the SAF, too.

gorenut
12-21-2012, 2:01 PM
I do donate from time to time because I do want to fund protecting our 2A and despite what some people might think, NRA does actually have a lot of clout. Politicians know they can't completely ignore/upset the organization.

That said.. I am also with a lot of the other members here in not agreeing with much of their other stances. I just wish they stayed focused strictly on the 2A. This morning's conference just let me down even more. I believe LaPierre started off with saying that the media was to blame. SO I was thinking "good... finally someone big is going to point out that the way the news media sensationalize these killers is getting way out of hand" - and then he transitions into blaming video games and movies. In my mind, thats essentially falling into the same folly as people who know nothing about guns going around how "Bushmaster Assault rifle" allows you to spit out 15 rounds a second and practically aims itself.

gobler
12-21-2012, 2:05 PM
Here's something to keep in mind.


The NRA is us. We make up the NRA and if you want it to reflect what you believe or want then speak up. Become a lifetime or endowment member so you can vote the leadership that best reflects your wants. If more non hunter or sportsmen join then we would see a shift in how and what rights and types of guns are fought for.

oddball
12-21-2012, 2:07 PM
Name me an organization or lobby group besides the NRA that can and will go toe-to-toe with The White House and Congress. Who has a bigger footprint than the NRA? Who has better resources, infrastructure and pure massive numbers than the NRA?

Shame on ANY gun owner who is not a member.

stix213
12-21-2012, 2:08 PM
As I see it, the reason to be a member or donate to each. (I donate the most to CGF, 2nd to SAF, and am always at least a member of the NRA) They all have different yet very important complimentary roles:

NRA - exerts influence over the congress, and various state legislatures, to reduce the likelihood of anti-gun legislation passing, and increase the likelihood of pro-gun legislation passing. Membership count is extremely important, because it is the source of the NRA's power. Some court action to eliminate bad laws and expand rights.

SAF - The big guns on 2A court activities to eliminate bad laws and expand rights nationally.

CGF - The big guns on 2A court activities specific to California to eliminate bad laws and expand rights, often in coordination with SAF. Defense fund to protect law abiding CA gun owners from scare tactics and lack of knowledge by CA law enforcement and prosecutors.

.....

Unfortunately though GOA talks big but has few results to show for it, so I haven't given them any of my support.

ScottB
12-21-2012, 2:08 PM
The ones I usually see are:

2. Don't like the NRA's non-firearm positions. For example, there was speculation that they pushed for 2A incorporation via due process because they didn't want to open the floodgates for gay marriage and recreation drug cases.

NRA is pretty focused on their one issue. Is there any actual evidence that the above occurred? I'd be shocked if this is true.

Meplat
12-21-2012, 2:24 PM
For me personally, that doesn't seem to exist, I am incapable of reasoning in absolutes like that. I think the only way any organization will agree with me 100% is if I bend my own morals and beliefs in some way to meet those upheld by that organization (your last sentence describes an impossibility, I'm guessing somewhat intentionally, but I enjoy a little snark with brunch so no worries).

I am wholeheartedly behind the basic idea of responsible adults owning legal firearms. I have no problems with that basic mechanic nor do I take issue with businesses that act with compassion and positive intent profiting from the legal sales or manufacturing of firearms.

My problem is that the only organizations that I have personally researched in the arena of firearms ownership do not seem to retain the ability to ebb or flow. Times and circumstances will always call for debate and flexibility, one cannot always get what one wants to steal a wise man's quote...the path of blind resistance is not one I choose to tread.


Actual absolutes do not exist. However, to effectively interact with the real world artificial absolutes are essential. If one jumps out of a perfectly good aircraft at 10,000 feet without a parachute it must be assumed that you are absolutely going to die; though it does not always happen that way. But, if you do not accept the premise as absolute, you are a fool.

In the gun control debate ebb and flow as well as debate and flexibility are analogous to a ratchet; when the back and forth are over we always find the screws have been further tightened on our liberties; every time.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-21-2012, 2:25 PM
Speak up when you know something, sonny. Thanks for being so mature about this... :rolleyes:

They were opposing. You just weren't watching.

Our "friends" in the GOP really "helped" us, btw.

Remember, Roberti-Roos was signed by a REPUBLICAN governor and with connivance of senior GOP legislators, and aided by turncoat "duck hunters" and "Thirty Caliber Idiots" wanting to sell out and protect their Garands and goose guns.

I suppose that would really get my nap up, if I were a Republican. Being a Libertarian, it doesn't really bother me. Our side has been let down by Reps and Dems alike, so I'm used to it by now (unfortunately). Anti-gun republicans were one of the things that pushed me towards being a Libertarian, though. That being said, the failures of the GOP do leave a unique opportunity for Libertarians to gain momentum, so I guess it's not all bad news but that's a much longer conversation. ;)

[qupte]
Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy.
[/QUOTE]

I personally know NRA staff in CA and they're hardworking SOBs working under near-impossible odds.

BTW, if you wanna know why you can have an OLL in California due to the "the list being frozen", that's due to NRA. If you wanna know why microstamping passed but didn't go anywhere, that's the NRA.


Is Roberti-Roos still law? Can I get a CCW in LA County? Then I'm not joining the NRA. I'm sorry but that's my criteria, and I'm sticking to my guns. Besides, I don't think they are going to miss my $35; they are making a killing right now in membership sales.

I'm getting tired of talking to idiots.

At least I can spell "quote". Those who live in glass houses...:rolleyes:

Don't call me an "idiot", dude. I'm entitled to my opinion and I have the freedom of chosing which organization gets my money. Right now, my money goes to CGF. I'm sorry if that offends you...

Not being an NRA member isnt helping them get results. CA is the ONLY state with a fulltime NRA lobbyist, still think they do nothing?

Re-read my previous post. At any time, did I ever say that they were doing "nothing"...? :confused:

No, I didn't. If the question is whether or not I think they are doing "enough", the answer is still "no", in my opinion. Now, we're faced with this national anti-gun movement and we'll probably never get those rights back. Whatever they were (or weren't) doing, it hasn't worked.

elSquid
12-21-2012, 2:25 PM
For example. In the last election the NRA supported they guy who signed an Assault Weapons Ban,


Nonsense. This has been gone over a few times...

http://www.goal.org/newspages/romney.html


...and demonized the guy who never did anything with gun control except make it legal to carry in national parks and to transport your guns on Amtrak.


Obama was part of the Joyce Foundation FFS! And his 2008 election promises were antigun, including proposing a permanent AW ban. And I seem to recall him also saying something vaguely anti gun in a recent Presidential debate... ;)

I am more than happy to donate three times that amount to causes I believe in. The NRA is hypocritical and are not just a gun rights group, they are obviously a pro-Republican group.


Horsefeathers. The big news at the start of this week was that an NRA "A" rated DEMOCRAT was supporting an AW ban...

http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/17/nra-endorsed-sen-joe-manchin-calls-for-assault-weapons-ban/

The NRA cares about gun rights. Period.

Another great example was the Reid-Angle fight, when the NRA faced huge backlash from the membership because the NRA was going to back Harry Reid in the election, instead of the Republican:

http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/230638/why-nra-might-endorse-harry-reid-over-sharron-angle#

The NRA ultimately didn't endorse anyone - but the only reason why was due to the fact that many vocal elements could get over the fact that the NRA cares about gun rights and not Obamacare...

-- Michael

Meplat
12-21-2012, 2:53 PM
Speak up when you know something, sonny.

They were opposing. You just weren't watching.

Our "friends" in the GOP really "helped" us, btw.

Remember, Roberti-Roos was signed by a REPUBLICAN governor and with connivance of senior GOP legislators, and aided by turncoat "duck hunters" and "Thirty Caliber Idiots" wanting to sell out and protect their Garands and goose guns.



Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy.


Now wait a minute; I agree that some “30 Cal.” people were not all that helpful. But, I know a lot that were. Before you paint with such a broad brush and piss off a lot of allies, take a think will you?

pdq_wizzard
12-21-2012, 2:56 PM
the way I look at it (been a member of the NRA for 8 years) is if Bob Beckel hates it I love it :D

and will be upping my membership to life in the next 2 months.

Meplat
12-21-2012, 3:14 PM
Here's something to keep in mind.


The NRA is us. We make up the NRA and if you want it to reflect what you believe or want then speak up. Become a lifetime or endowment member so you can vote the leadership that best reflects your wants. If more non hunter or sportsmen join then we would see a shift in how and what rights and types of guns are fought for.

I have been a life member for over forty years, and that is such a load of feces that it cannot be described. If you are a voting member you vote for board members, but the system is rigged so that the executive actually controls who gets on the board. Acorn ainít got nothiní on the NRA executive branch.

That being said we do have a decent executive branch even so. I am a member, I donate to ILA, I intend to remain a member, and I encourage others who are not, to join. But donít give me any bull crap about effecting change in the organization with your vote.

SanPedroShooter
12-21-2012, 3:19 PM
I am more than happy to donate three times that amount to causes I believe in. The NRA is hypocritical and are not just a gun rights group, they are obviously a pro-Republican group. I hold Republicans in the same regard that I hold Democrats (which is not high), and I will not contribute my money to an organization that supports candidates with anti-liberty views.

For example. In the last election the NRA supported they guy who signed an Assault Weapons Ban, and demonized the guy who never did anything with gun control except make it legal to carry in national parks and to transport your guns on Amtrak.

I know this is hard for you guys to hear, but those that are in favor of gun rights are not limited to Republicans.

I am pro-liberty. I am not aware of a single politician that has that stance, and cannot abide my money going to some guy who has views that are antithetical to mine.

Gun ownership is not an issue that belongs in the political sphere. It is a fundamental right, constitutionally protected. I have seen CGF do more work in the last 3 or 4 years to further that goal, and make more progress with that than I have seen the NRA do in the last 50.

Just because I do not support the NRA does not mean I do not treasure my 2A rights, it just means that the NRA leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

I agree completely with you. That said, is a sour taste worse than federal gun grab boondoggle?

Personally I overlook the bad and try to make the NRA what I want it to be. I think they need to be less partisan. But when almost every attack on gnus comes from one party, what then?

The right to keep and carry arms is bigger then R and D. If the NRA forgets that sometimes, then join up and remind them.

daveblandston6
12-21-2012, 3:36 PM
...and then he transitions into blaming video games and movies. In my mind, thats essentially falling into the same folly as people who know nothing about guns going around how "Bushmaster Assault rifle" allows you to spit out 15 rounds a second and practically aims itself.

Look a little deeper at the violent media aspect of American social and moral decay. Why is the media so desperate to blame inanimate objects for violence? Possibly to deflect blame from the harm they themselves have caused, and continue to profit from? Read "Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill" by Grossman. The scientific evidence supporting the psychological violence-enabling effects of violent video games on children is clear. Unless you've spent years researching it yourself, don't be so quick to dismiss the significance of this issue. There's a LOT to this topic.

I agree with NRA 100% on this issue. Of course there are other factors as well.

JBBenson
12-21-2012, 4:20 PM
I just renewed my long elapsed membership. I also gave money to CGF.

I have some problems with the NRA, but "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

I do wish the NRA would find a better, more charismatic spokesperson.

hawk1
12-21-2012, 4:54 PM
There are people that do things and there are people that ride the coat tails of those that do things.

Yup! Free-ride whiners!

Thanks for that direct, and to the point, explanation. :)

mag360
12-21-2012, 5:22 PM
You want results, take a little sweet with your sour and pony up for a dang NRA membership. You people are like little children that want their apple juice in their yellow sippy cup and only pb&k of the crust is cut off as well.

How do you thinl we even got this far to allow your darling groups like cgf and saf that by their very own definition dont need to meddle in politics. If it wasnt for the NRA we would be a lot worse off. SAF and CGF break the stupid but they cant hold bavl the tide alone.

NightOwl
12-21-2012, 5:22 PM
This is a great example of why I didn't bother posting my own response in this thread. Let's take a look at it.

Oh gawd another supposed pro-gunner.

If you don't protect the firearms industry the 2A withers and dies.

[How do you think free speech would fare with internet restrictions?]

This was why the PLCAA was so important.

BTW, the industry is actually represented more by NSSF than NRA, so you really might wanna check your facts.

Personal attack, strawman, strawman, off topic, marginally related point.

I haven't seen them take issue with busing, healthcare etc.
Generally they've been sole focus on guns although a few board members have other agendas.
strawman, off topic.

Predators eat well. Are you saying we should surrender?

Meaningless but catchy, then putting words in his mouth.

If you do not believe in the 2A, WTF are you doing here?

You have a hobby, not a right.
Strawman, attack.



And much of that comes from the battles we're fighting.

As you can see, pretty much the entirety of the post I'm quoting was trash talk and strawman arguments. Really useful, and I'm sure this sort of thing makes everyone who disagrees want to post in this thread, so they can get their very own trashtalk, strawman, garbage post in response. Yay, right?

mag360
12-21-2012, 5:40 PM
Bwiese is spot on. NighOwl you're so smart did you pass your hs debate class?

johnyreb
12-21-2012, 6:30 PM
Now wait a minute; I agree that some “30 Cal.” people were not all that helpful. But, I know a lot that were. Before you paint with such a broad brush and piss off a lot of allies, take a think will you?

I have no problem with that statement, its the truth. I remember those days, all as an avid hunter I have a lot of friends that hunt, and their ONLY concern then was their Remington and browning auto loaders and their semi auto shot guns .I was told by quite a few people they did not give one **** if EBRs were banned, as long as they left their guns alone.

The same went for the old bench guys at the range.....they did not own EBRS so they did not care.

anthonyca
12-21-2012, 6:53 PM
I am very pro-gun. I would have no issue with allowing responsible adults access to just about any weapon. I am about as pro-gun as they come.

I do not like the politics of the NRA. They lie, and mislead and cause a lot of division within the country. Don't mistake that for me saying they should not exist, far be it from me to tell others how to organize, but I am not going to support them.

I resent being demonized because I don't agree with most ppl on this forum about NRA membership.

No politician cares or even knows you are pro gun and none of them listen to you. Many politicians are deathly afraid of the NRA and all Washington politicians study listen to.what they say. The NRA can clean out Congress like very few organizations can.

The do all this with only four million of ninety million gun owners. Imagine if we had half of gun owners.

Bw511
12-21-2012, 6:57 PM
Yes, your last paragraph is very important, especially at a time like this.
I would like the NRA to take a critical look at their image, how it comes across since the core message is sound and morally right. We are the good guys. I just want that message to be delivered in the clearest, most effective form for the majority of Americans who are on the fence who may not be gun owners themselves but may know their neighbors who are responsible, law abiding and well-adjusted gunowners. Image matters very much in this age.

I'm with this guy. I don't think they have our interests in mind as much as they are an arm of the gun lobby these days. That doesn't NEED to be a bad thing, but the NRA had better stop being so goddamn obvious about it if they want my support. They are going down the road of having no credibility other than the money that pours in. Eventually it won't be enough. A kinder, gentler NRA is not what people like me are looking for, so much as an organization that knows when and what to give and when to stand firm.

An example: Gun groups should be fighting for national CCW "shall issue" laws, but offering that ALL CCW require a police academy-level training. The demand that we can all defend ourselves is balanced with the perception to non-gun-owners that we are at least as well trained as the people they pay to defend them.

The offer that any one of us needs to be as good as any cop to carry a weapon shouldn't be that much of a stretch. I know I can do it. But can anyone really see the current NRA offering such a thing to the "weaker" half of our population? The shiite liberals are flexing their muscles, especially after the GOP's recent total defeat. Any group or party that isn't presenting itself as the calm, collected, fatherly voice of reason is on its way down.

USMCM16A2
12-21-2012, 7:26 PM
Guys,



You guys go on ahead and sit on your hands, let those that want to have an effect through. A2

ArcherDog
12-21-2012, 8:19 PM
I've always been on the fence on supporting the NRA, but LaPierre blew it today. The fact that he employed a tactic that most gun owners abhor in his big speech, namely, blaming inanimate objects for violence in society (video games, movies, tv) proves that he is as out of touch as the gun-grabbers we see popping up left and right in the wake of Newtown.

LaPierre had a chance to make a reasoned and passionate argument in favor of mental health care and tougher law enforcement and he blew it. Not opening my wallet to support that incompetency.

3RDGEARGRNDRR
12-21-2012, 8:26 PM
none of us would be here if it wasnt for the nra in one way or another.
I would rather give $200 to the nra right now, than to a panic bought AR and a $25 DROS everytime I want a new firearm, They are still the primary reason we are allowed to own firearms in this country period.
The were the main lobbying factor in successfully defeating UN talks on gun control. And they need our support right now.

12voltguy
12-21-2012, 8:27 PM
I've always been on the fence on supporting the NRA, but LaPierre blew it today. The fact that he employed a tactic that most gun owners abhor in his big speech, namely, blaming inanimate objects for violence in society (video games, movies, tv) proves that he is as out of touch as the gun-grabbers we see popping up left and right in the wake of Newtown.

LaPierre had a chance to make a reasoned and passionate argument in favor of mental health care and tougher law enforcement and he blew it. Not opening my wallet to support that incompetency.

way to go
no *****in from you when new laws are passed & you couldn't pony up $25 "BECAUSE":facepalm:

Meplat
12-21-2012, 8:46 PM
I have no problem with that statement, its the truth. I remember those days, all as an avid hunter I have a lot of friends that hunt, and their ONLY concern then was their Remington and browning auto loaders and their semi auto shot guns .I was told by quite a few people they did not give one **** if EBRs were banned, as long as they left their guns alone.

The same went for the old bench guys at the range.....they did not own EBRS so they did not care.

I know what you mean, and it has to hurt. I tried to get some of the tweed guys to realize that the antis would be back for another bite if we did not fight them on EBRís. By the way, I still donít own one but Iím still fighting for them. If we donít hang together we will hang separately.

InGrAM
12-21-2012, 8:51 PM
It is the liberal turncoat "gun owners" on this forum that say to not join the NRA.

Meplat
12-21-2012, 8:54 PM
I've always been on the fence on supporting the NRA, but LaPierre blew it today. The fact that he employed a tactic that most gun owners abhor in his big speech, namely, blaming inanimate objects for violence in society (video games, movies, tv) proves that he is as out of touch as the gun-grabbers we see popping up left and right in the wake of Newtown.

LaPierre had a chance to make a reasoned and passionate argument in favor of mental health care and tougher law enforcement and he blew it. Not opening my wallet to support that incompetency.


So make it easier to declare those you disagree with insane? Bad idea. Iíll bet you support firearms enhancements also.:facepalm:

Bbonez
12-21-2012, 8:54 PM
is there a way to NRA a donation without giving them my info? I dont want all that junk mail, but I support the cause.

Meplat
12-21-2012, 9:07 PM
is there a way to NRA a donation without giving them my info? I dont want all that junk mail, but I support the cause.

I sometimes donít think NRAís left hand knows what its right is doing. I have been a life member for over 40 years and I donít think I get more than one or two donation requests per year. I donate more than that but never in response to requests. Maybe if you ignore them they eventually go away?

remsenlab
12-21-2012, 9:09 PM
I'm not a fan of the NRA for many of the reasons already stated, but I became a member today and made a good-sized donation to the NRA-ILA as well.

The anti gun side is rabid. They don't want discussion, they don't want reason, they don't want compromise. And they're getting a lot of people to support them.

I really don't care about the negatives of the NRA. All I care about is that we are in an era of extremes, and you're either on one side or the other. I put my money on my side, as much as I may have to hold my nose.

carrywisely_ca
12-21-2012, 10:28 PM
[QUOTE=zhyla;9976986]

1. Don't like the spam/scare tactics that NRA uses to drive donations.
2. Don't like the NRA's non-firearm positions.

These are two of the reasons I waiver in my membership. The constant mailers, the "go all in" opinionated articles appear to be off-topic. Just like I expect journalism sources to be unbiased and offer an objective segment on a topic, I expect a group to spend my money responsibly; for the NRA my expectations are that they defend 2A rights, and work to that end without objection.
What I find is that they are telling people who to vote for, and shaping perspectives by framing the information as being related to 2A positions, but in truth the conservative organization is defending its position as a lobby behemoth, as a successful business, and as a political machine.

The conference Friday Morning, 12/21/2012, was irresponsible. The very organization that is suggesting that gun owners are responsible, that is working to give gun owners an image as logical, civic-minded, life-appreciating beings is telling the country and the world that we want more people with guns to be in the vicinity of the precious children we value highly. -FAIL-
WLP (Wayne LaPierrre ) could have used a qualification/training approach to the ability to possess & carry firearms. He should have suggested a nationwide federal background check, close the "loophole" that the anti-gunners keep mentioning in their campaign to induce a fear response. He should have mentioned that in many states there are controls, like California's HSC, and the BFSC before that. When people have basic certifiable awareness of the item they are purchasing there is more acceptance of the inherent danger in owning/operating said item, and we can expect a baseline awareness of operation. these things seem easy enough to implement without making folks nervous about rights being infringed upon.

I get that gun ownership is a right, and motor vehicle operation is a privilege, but when your rights include the operation of a potentially lethal object/machine/tool, it is reasonable to have proof of a minimal level of awareness for safety.

P.s. WLP could have used the financial approach: The climate of unemployment, fiscal crises looming, and outsourcing of labor, and could have mentioned that any ban or restricted access would hurt labor & employment numbers. Guns and their accessories keep Americans employed and buying houses.

ArcherDog
12-21-2012, 10:47 PM
So make it easier to declare those you disagree with insane? Bad idea. Iíll bet you support firearms enhancements also.:facepalm:

Typical - Strawman debate. You'd make an excellent NRA spokesman (or Piers Morgan's writer)

elSquid
12-21-2012, 11:03 PM
The NRA cares about gun rights. Period.

Another great example was the Reid-Angle fight, when the NRA faced huge backlash from the membership because the NRA was going to back Harry Reid in the election, instead of the Republican:

http://www.nationalreview.com/campaign-spot/230638/why-nra-might-endorse-harry-reid-over-sharron-angle#


This is too good not to share. For those people that feel that the NRA is not effective, and that it is nothing more than an extension of the Republican party, you have to read this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/medea-benjamin/harry-reid-gun-control_b_2337796.html

When CODEPINK, MoveOn and representatives of other organizations marched into Senator Harry Reid's D.C. office on Tuesday, December 18, they wanted a simple answer to a simple question: Does the senator support a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity clips, such as the legislation proposed by Senator Dianne Feinstein and supported by President Obama and Vice President Biden? It would seem like a no-brainer for the Senate majority leader to fall in line with the leadership of his party in backing a modest bill that would ban the sale of weapons that are only good for mass murder. Unfortunately, Reid's senior policy advisor Kasey Gillette was unable to give an answer.

While there is a lot of talk in Democratic circles about Republicans standing in the way of sensible gun laws, a hidden secret is that the Democratic Senate leader from Nevada, who is key to getting gun control legislation passed in this country, has been as pro-gun as most Republicans.

Apparently this was written yesterday by Medea Benjamin. You may know her better from her being kicked out of the NRA press conference this morning. :)

Basically she's upset that Reid appears to be an ally of the NRA, and he apparently has shown and is showing little enthusiasm for new gun laws. Go to the link and read to get the full picture...it's good stuff.

-- Michael

mrmichael
12-21-2012, 11:38 PM
If we donít hang together we will hang separately.

Yes, yes, yes. Folks, I could care less that the NRA isn't ideal, or if they supported the wrong legislation or politician, or if they have lousy advertising. They are in the fight right now.

This is bigger than politics. It's dark and the Morlocks are coming out of their holes.

What has the SAF ever done? They don't have never the influence the NRA does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_Foundation
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Richards_v._Prieto
They are in the fight, and they are taking territory back here in CA. I donated just for Richards_v._Prieto.

Gary O
12-22-2012, 7:02 AM
Well, based on what I see here we're screwed. I watched this unfold in California and now I can see that lack of unity will be our undoing nationally, too. Pity, really...

Excelsior
12-22-2012, 10:36 AM
It's really remarkable that ANY gun owner would come on here and carp about the NRA and take delight in saying they aren't going to join.

At this time in history it takes a very special breed of stupid to do that.

Get over your egos already. Put the arrogance, ignorance, hatred and bitterness aside for a moment and join the NRA. No matter how you spin it, your guns rights will fare better with a strong NRA versus a weak NRA.

Excelsior
12-22-2012, 10:37 AM
Well, based on what I see here we're screwed. I watched this unfold in California and now I can see that lack of unity will be our undoing nationally, too. Pity, really...

Lotta truth to that. :(

ZigZags
12-22-2012, 11:01 AM
huh?

He was saying, there are people who join the NRA and then there are people who don't but live with the benefits from those that put in the time and money. Basically, as a gun owner you're freeloading.

I am still debating joining the NRA myself. I have some issues with them but I realize their value and that I wouldn't be able to own half the the firearms I do if it weren't for them.

Demonfart
12-22-2012, 11:39 AM
Actual absolutes do not exist. However, to effectively interact with the real world artificial absolutes are essential. If one jumps out of a perfectly good aircraft at 10,000 feet without a parachute it must be assumed that you are absolutely going to die; though it does not always happen that way. But, if you do not accept the premise as absolute, you are a fool.

In the gun control debate ebb and flow as well as debate and flexibility are analogous to a ratchet; when the back and forth are over we always find the screws have been further tightened on our liberties; every time.

You are comparing a subject with an (almost) absolute outcome to a subject that has an entirely unknown outcome that does not lead to anything approaching instant death (you also are attempting to equate the fate of a single subject to the fate of a large population of subjects, that also highly devalues the logic) but I commend you for taking the time to read what I wrote AND make me think. (It's almost %100 absolute that you will perish if you fall out of a plane, but the consequences of debating gun control has zero certainties...a major reason for spirited, logical, flexible debate).

Your last sentence is very eloquent but it also has a flaw; the swinging wratchet is often set to loosen those same screws you speak of (civil rights movement comes to mind right away, but I'm sure I can find plenty of examples if you like).

I do agree with some of your reasoning, artificial absolutes for example have great uses outside of venues like physics and geommetry, and appreciate you making me use my brain on a Saturday. This is why I'm still reading this thread, and it also enforces my belief that taking a hard line "this is the only way and I'm not budging" approach is so very unwise and in my opinion is actually far more likely to lead to something like an all out ban (see; NRA press conference).

mag360
12-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Answer me this, why would the NRA lay out what gun control they will agree to in their first press conference since all this talk got started when the other side hasnt laid out their plan. Why would we show our hand first to Biden. Cant you see what is happening? If every time there was a shooting the NRA just rolled and said "aw shucks you got me" we'd have lost semi autos a long time ago. Your philosophical block or hatred of a little "spam mail" is more important than your guns, I get it.

Bw511
12-22-2012, 12:18 PM
I wasn't trying to say that Lapierre should have lined out gun control measures in his little speech. Just that gun groups in general, most of ALL the NRA, need to be the ones proposing sensible gun control measures that hurt none of us, empower all of us, educate the unwashed masses, and most of all, lessen the media's ability to paint us as "just any guy anywhere who went out and bought an "assault weapon" because we are unchecked, not required to be trained, and a) afraid of the government coming to take our stuff, or b) planning to shoot some humans".

Ted Nugent and Wayne Lapierre are not the face of a successful pro-2A future guys. This country is more divided now than ever before, and it's not over gun control, or abortion, or gay marriage. It's every goddamn thing. The only things that are going to survive in the next few decades are people and groups presenting themselves as the responsible center. That which will not bend will be broken.

scrubb
12-22-2012, 12:43 PM
On occassion I see folks around here who seem to be opposed to joining the NRA. They usually to not state thier reasons. Can any of you folks speculate on why they would be so against the idea? Thanks...

All these threads do is create more hot-headedness and division when we need united. You might as well start a thread that says "NRA BASHERS POST HERE!"

SanPedroShooter
12-22-2012, 12:58 PM
I wasn't trying to say that Lapierre should have lined out gun control measures in his little speech. Just that gun groups in general, most of ALL the NRA, need to be the ones proposing sensible gun control measures that hurt none of us, empower all of us, educate the unwashed masses, and most of all, lessen the media's ability to paint us as "just any guy anywhere who went out and bought an "assault weapon" because we are unchecked, not required to be trained, and a) afraid of the government coming to take our stuff, or b) planning to shoot some humans".

Ted Nugent and Wayne Lapierre are not the face of a successful pro-2A future guys. This country is more divided now than ever before, and it's not over gun control, or abortion, or gay marriage. It's every goddamn thing. The only things that are going to survive in the next few decades are people and groups presenting themselves as the responsible center. That which will not bend will be broken.

Which gun control measuers 'that hurt none of us' would that be?

Can you explain that?

Does 'sensible' mean the same thing as 'common sense'?

McTerry
12-22-2012, 1:08 PM
this is something I have been struggling with for a while. I used to be an NRA member but the last time my renewal came up, I let it lapse and have been un-subscribing from countless email lists ever since.

My reason was one of irritation. I did not like the Pro-Republican push of the NRA mail and email that I would receive. It just started to simmer and then boiled over and I was left thinking, "What the hell is this? I want to support gun rights, not fund a political party."

And because I'm sure most will let assumptions override their reading, no I am not a Democrat, I have yet to find a political party that defines my own personal political beliefs.

I also don't have a problem listening to proposed ideas for restrictions and laws, where as the NRA seems to take a stand against everything anti-gun just for the sake of being pro-gun.

The Second Amendment is just that, an amendment, and it can be repealed. We need smarter ideas and practices, possibly even a compromise, if we have any hopes of retaining our right to keep and bear arms.

We don't need Heston standing up and proclaiming, "From my cold dead hands!", we need education and training. Educate those who are uneducated and they in turn will see the practical need of firearms. Treating them like idiots (even if they are) only fuels their fires of idiocy.

psubond
12-22-2012, 1:12 PM
the "progressives" will never stop. the reason you can't give ground at all to them is they take everything you give them but want more until they have it all. read "rules for radicals" and you'll understand their tactics. if you don't know what they are doing how can you stop them?

SanPedroShooter
12-22-2012, 1:14 PM
You are comparing a subject with an (almost) absolute outcome to a subject that has an entirely unknown outcome that does not lead to anything approaching instant death (you also are attempting to equate the fate of a single subject to the fate of a large population of subjects, that also highly devalues the logic) but I commend you for taking the time to read what I wrote AND make me think. (It's almost %100 absolute that you will perish if you fall out of a plane, but the consequences of debating gun control has zero certainties...a major reason for spirited, logical, flexible debate).

Your last sentence is very eloquent but it also has a flaw; the swinging wratchet is often set to loosen those same screws you speak of (civil rights movement comes to mind right away, but I'm sure I can find plenty of examples if you like).

I do agree with some of your reasoning, artificial absolutes for example have great uses outside of venues like physics and geommetry, and appreciate you making me use my brain on a Saturday. This is why I'm still reading this thread, and it also enforces my belief that taking a hard line "this is the only way and I'm not budging" approach is so very unwise and in my opinion is actually far more likely to lead to something like an all out ban (see; NRA press conference).

Blah blah blah, a lot of five cent words going round and round in a circle.

You dont like the NRA fine, just get of the way then and let us deal with this problem.

You can thank us later.

liberallyloaded
12-22-2012, 1:20 PM
this is something I have been struggling with for a while. I used to be an NRA member but the last time my renewal came up, I let it lapse and have been un-subscribing from countless email lists ever since.

My reason was one of irritation. I did not like the Pro-Republican push of the NRA mail and email that I would receive. It just started to simmer and then boiled over and I was left thinking, "What the hell is this? I want to support gun rights, not fund a political party."

And because I'm sure most will let assumptions override their reading, no I am not a Democrat, I have yet to find a political party that defines my own personal political beliefs.

I also don't have a problem listening to proposed ideas for restrictions and laws, where as the NRA seems to take a stand against everything anti-gun just for the sake of being pro-gun.

The Second Amendment is just that, an amendment, and it can be repealed. We need smarter ideas and practices, possibly even a compromise, if we have any hopes of retaining our right to keep and bear arms.

We don't need Heston standing up and proclaiming, "From my cold dead hands!", we need education and training. Educate those who are uneducated and they in turn will see the practical need of firearms. Treating them like idiots (even if they are) only fuels their fires of idiocy.

I'm in a similar position... Having never joined until earlier today (thanks again bigcalidave!), I feel it is important to move forward in solidarity... These threads seem to... Not... Promote... Solidarity at all? It's kind of like saying, "We need to move on together... and if you disagree... *&%$ off!" haha

Old_Bald_Guy
12-22-2012, 1:23 PM
The ones I usually see are:

1. Don't like the spam/scare tactics that NRA uses to drive donations.
2. Don't like the NRA's non-firearm positions.

1. Yep. I strongly dislike the scare tactics and divisiveness employed by the NRA.
2. That's a fact. It's an organization run by people on the extreme right wing. I'm not that, so it's not for me.

More...
3. My guns are not my entire world. I don't want to lose what I have, but I'm not on board with an organization that uses a slippery slope argument to resist any and all regulation of gun ownership and possession.
4. I am not a 2A zealot. I want some limits. Yeah, yeah, I must be an agent of the devil or a socialist or something equally as bad, and it offends all of you. Oh well. Those who scream against any limits whatsoever are absolutists, and I don't fall into that category. The NRA is the perfect organization for someone who has an absolutist's views on gun rights. I don't have those views.
5. In my opinion, there are some people whose behavior and history SHOULD deny them some rights. The NRA disagrees with this.

Until/unless the NRA does something about their absolutist philosophy (it wasn't always like that, BTW), and until it addresses the not wholly undeserved reputation that it's an organization largely of and for for white conservatives, it will eventually lose a lot of influence.

The question was asked, but I don't expect my answer to have any effect of anyone whatsoever other than to possibly provoke a bit of vitriol. Have at it.

buster1960
12-22-2012, 1:25 PM
They would have a huge amount more money to defend gun rights if they would cut in half the amount of BS mailings they do. Send me one large envelope every quarter and save the postage to fight the war.

Samuel Adams
12-22-2012, 1:27 PM
Yep, seems to be what some are doing.:facepalm: We are doomed if we don't stick together.

http://i.imgur.com/p8IWx.jpg

SanPedroShooter
12-22-2012, 1:31 PM
1. Yep. I strongly dislike the scare tactics and divisiveness employed by the NRA.
2. That's a fact. It's an organization run by people on the extreme right wing. I'm not that, so it's not for me.

More...
3. My guns are not my entire world. I don't want to lose what I have, but I'm not on board with an organization that uses a slippery slope argument to resist any and all regulation of gun ownership and possession.
4. I am not a 2A zealot. I want some limits. Yeah, yeah, I must be an agent of the devil or a socialist or something equally as bad, and it offends all of you. Oh well. Those who scream against any limits whatsoever are absolutists, and I don't fall into that category. The NRA is the perfect organization for someone who has an absolutist's views on gun rights. I don't have those views.
5. In my opinion, there are some people whose behavior and history SHOULD deny them some rights. The NRA disagrees with this.

Until/unless the NRA does something about their absolutist philosophy (it wasn't always like that, BTW), and until it addresses the not wholly undeserved reputation that it's an organization largely of and for for white conservatives, it will eventually lose a lot of influence.

The question was asked, but I don't expect my answer to have any effect of anyone whatsoever other than to possibly provoke a bit of vitriol. Have at it.

Well you might just get all the restrictions you can handle if the heap of worthless laws in this state are enough for you already. The whole country can have just as much 'common sense' as California does.

But blame the NRA.....

SPROCKET
12-22-2012, 2:11 PM
The NRA has sent a clear message to gun owners like me. The message is "**** off." That said, I'm holding my nose and joining again. It would be nice if they'd realize that the fat angry old white guys are dying off and if we want to retain our rights in the future we need to reach outside that demographic.

Wrangler John
12-22-2012, 2:34 PM
Just for grins..Fox did not cover nor air the NRA press conference...they were talking about the fiscal "cliff"...I had to go to MSNBC and or the financial channel to see the speech ..... strange that Fox, the more "balanced" of the cable "news networks" didn't attend...

Not true. Mrs. Wrangler began the LaPierre speech on a local independent TV station, then switched to Fox where it was carried live. I saw it on Fox News over the satellite feed from Dish Network.

hawk1
12-22-2012, 2:58 PM
I have to agree with bwiese, very tiring listening to idiots complain...:facepalm:

Wrangler John
12-22-2012, 3:26 PM
I love this kind of stuff.

In Heller the NRA went for due process over P&I (or vice versa) because they didn't want to support gay marriage.

I seem to recall that some fairly bright Constitutional lawyers mentioned that due process was doable, but getting a ruling under P&I was extremely difficult.

The NRA supports candidates and incumbents I don't like.

Maybe the NRA, who works in Washington, D.C. knows more about the politics and people involved. We are too far removed from the halls of government to know all the details (or any of them really), and the NRA is a single issue lobby. These things usually start out as:

"My dentist heard that Senator Stumblebum is planning to back a bill requiring all K thru 12 grade schools to provide condoms to students, so why is the NRA endorsing him?

I don't like the NRA's aggressive fundraising style. Too many scare tactics and junk mail.

In my best Mona Lisa Vito New Jersey accent:

"OMG! What a f****n' disast-a! The NRA actually had the gall to send you a donation request? I'll bet you'll be going to therapy until the sun dies over that one."

The NRA sold my name to mailing lists so now I get junk mail from gun manufacturers, sporting goods catalogs and magazines.

What'd ya say about that Miss. Vito?

Somebody sends you a catalog, my god what a friggin' crime! Look, now you got something to read on the crapper, it's free for god's sake, if you don't want it toss it!

How easily the children are offended. :)

mag360
12-22-2012, 4:06 PM
Oh man talking in that fran drescher accent is cracking me up " ooo what a disaaaasta, they sent ya a donation request?"

pdq_wizzard
12-22-2012, 4:59 PM
1. Yep. I strongly dislike the scare tactics and divisiveness employed by the NRA.
2. That's a fact. It's an organization run by people on the extreme right wing. I'm not that, so it's not for me.

More...
3. My guns are not my entire world. I don't want to lose what I have, but I'm not on board with an organization that uses a slippery slope argument to resist any and all regulation of gun ownership and possession.
4. I am not a 2A zealot. I want some limits. Yeah, yeah, I must be an agent of the devil or a socialist or something equally as bad, and it offends all of you. Oh well. Those who scream against any limits whatsoever are absolutists, and I don't fall into that category. The NRA is the perfect organization for someone who has an absolutist's views on gun rights. I don't have those views.
5. In my opinion, there are some people whose behavior and history SHOULD deny them some rights. The NRA disagrees with this.

Until/unless the NRA does something about their absolutist philosophy (it wasn't always like that, BTW), and until it addresses the not wholly undeserved reputation that it's an organization largely of and for for white conservatives, it will eventually lose a lot of influence.

The question was asked, but I don't expect my answer to have any effect of anyone whatsoever other than to possibly provoke a bit of vitriol. Have at it.

well, I would like to put it this way.

1) anyone that has a mental problem should not be living next door to me (we need to bring back the institutions)
2) anyone that has committed a crime and done the time should be able to own a gun (if they are that dangerous they need to be in jail)

bad guys will get there guns and evil is real. (you can't stop that)

robcoe
12-22-2012, 5:03 PM
On occassion I see folks around here who seem to be opposed to joining the NRA. They usually to not state thier reasons. Can any of you folks speculate on why they would be so against the idea? Thanks...

I was opposed up until recently, for me a lot of the candadates they supported just didn't sit well with me and it seemed like they wandered outside gun control into more just pro GOP terratory.

But now, it is clear this is a pick one side or the other fight, and I would rather the NRA win this one, so I signed up for a membership last night.

Gary O
12-22-2012, 8:33 PM
So? Who will speak for gun owners now, since the NRA is the spawn of the anti-christ?

mag360
12-22-2012, 9:37 PM
You know Gary-o the National do everything I want and nothing I dont Rifle Association.

NDEIWANIDRA I think they have at least two members and a lobbyist, they can get televised press xonf. Right?

Garand1911
12-22-2012, 10:33 PM
If you guys really think the NRA is going to throw us under the bus, then just think back to 1994 AW ban.
Black rifle owners and supporters CHANGED CONGRESS, and that major loss is still being felt today. I bet the NRA was even surprised by the damage to the democrap congress.

The only congress persons to publicly support another AW ban are leaving congress or are not scared of losing there seats. Everyone else hasnt said **** about supporting another AW ban, for fear of losing there jobs, and to support obammers other freedom killing plans.

And now Black Rifle Owners are EVEN BIGGER. The NRA sees their membership rising, and mass gun sales ...all by black rifle owners. THE NRA CAN NOT IGNORE US.
Mid term elections are only two years away, and if need be we can change congress again.

If you dont support the NRA, then support someone else.

sixtus
12-23-2012, 12:12 AM
I haven't joined them because I have criticized several of their actions in the public face. Holding the pro-gun rally just after Columbine without even at least holding a "moment of silence" for the people who had been hurt or killed at the shooting was a poor move.

Politically, I realize that they are the best we have when it comes to keeping the antis in politics from passing too many BS laws. I will admit that we need them, but until I see some serious change in their leadership, I won't join.

sixtus
12-23-2012, 12:13 AM
Also, I'm totally in favor of getting rid of Feinstein. She's been in the seat of power for far too long.

Bw511
12-23-2012, 12:16 AM
If you dont support the NRA, then support someone else.

I should probably say at this point that regardless of my concerns about the NRA's current face and attitude, NOT donating is a self-destructive stance none of us can really afford. Even if you don't support the NRA, you should still support the NRA (and Calguns, and SAF, and CRPA...).

Wayne, this one's for you.

http://coverslike.com/thumbs/shut_up_and_take_my_money-t2.jpg

uhlan1
12-23-2012, 12:44 AM
Off topic, but:

I took a minute out from this mayhem to send Jerry Brown an email, specifically about the DeLeon bill. Ban or no ban is kind of senseless if we can't afford the ammunition. I spoke as an independent, nicely and reasonably about how this bill will relegate shooting sports to a pastime for the affluent and away from the hundreds of thousands of active hobbyists, many of whom are independent voting middle class.
And i followed up with another on the Yee bill.
I strongly encourage, implore everyone you know to do the same. And your state legislators. Take a minute from the complaining and hand wringing and do it! Fight like lions or go out with a whimper.
Do no good? What in God's name do you have to lose?
Get off your duffs and email everyone. And keep it professional.
http://gov.ca.gov/m_contact.php

IntoForever
12-23-2012, 12:52 AM
I will not join due to the insane amount of junk mail it generates, not only from them but from other junk mail companies as well. I already get too much crap in the mail and I'm furious at my name being sold. Additionally, I don't want stickers, patches, bags or other items that will never be used to dilute my anonymous donations. I know there are a few who will piss moan and groan about my decision, and have in the past, but I could easily stop with the donations altogether.

SanPedroShooter
12-23-2012, 6:17 AM
Do you not get it? Its not about junk mail or stickers or any other crap.

The line has been drawn, which side are you on?

PS. I have been a member for years, and not one scap on my mail, junk or otherwise do I recieve.

If junk mail makes your hurt that bad, send me your member number, I will call the NRA myself and make sure it doesnt happen anymore.

See, all better. No more excuses.

4DsPrEcvIvI

Jack L
12-23-2012, 7:09 AM
Just sent in more $ to the NRA after watching Chris Hayes and his guests this AM speaking about using the Australian model for gun laws. One mayor said we need to take all assault weapons back, no retroactive deal and have a no-loophole law making it impossible to build a rifle that makes a few changes to makes it legal. Then they said most murders are done with handguns so they should go after them as well. That got my attention fast!

mag360
12-23-2012, 7:10 AM
Intoforever so you dislike junk mail (which I just put in recycling) more than you like your guns. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

Gary O
12-23-2012, 7:52 AM
I guess I have been aware of the pus**fication of American men for some time now, but it has caught me by surprise to see so much of it on display at this website. Actually, I see the entire internet headed this way; However, I did ask for some opinions and I guess I should consider them...

mag360
12-23-2012, 8:00 AM
The junk mail whiners have got to be the worst.

Followed closely by the "they supported a candidate I dont like crowd".

They support rod wright *****es, a black guy from Compton so how about you ditch the ignorant racist BS too.

pieeater
12-23-2012, 8:02 AM
I will not join due to the insane amount of junk mail it generates, not only from them but from other junk mail companies as well. I already get too much crap in the mail and I'm furious at my name being sold. Additionally, I don't want stickers, patches, bags or other items that will never be used to dilute my anonymous donations. I know there are a few who will piss moan and groan about my decision, and have in the past, but I could easily stop with the donations altogether.

What junk mail???? Ive been a life member for 20 years once a month I get american hunter magazine I got a couple of stop sb249 postcards thats about it.

pdq_wizzard
12-23-2012, 8:16 AM
I get 1 maybe 2 letters a year they are for renewal that is it.I called 6 years ago and asked not to get mail or calls took 5 minutes that's it :confused:

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2

NORCAL#1
12-23-2012, 8:20 AM
Have been a member for years and will be till I die.
People that dont join and help our couse are full of excuses.

hawk1
12-23-2012, 8:29 AM
I will not join due to the insane amount of junk mail it generates, not only from them but from other junk mail companies as well. I already get too much crap in the mail and I'm furious at my name being sold. Additionally, I don't want stickers, patches, bags or other items that will never be used to dilute my anonymous donations. I know there are a few who will piss moan and groan about my decision, and have in the past, but I could easily stop with the donations altogether.

Nice! We have a poster boy for the opposition. Everyone get a good look. Maybe not such a bad thing. He may have some "trouble" in his life we don't need. Such as not being able to cope with junk mail. You know, that stuff you walk over to the trash can and drop in without a second look. Second, his name being sold, well I can see it must be more than he can handle to call the NRA and opt out. Telephones can be difficult to use, but carrying on a conversation with another human has to be worse. But the third is really the end of the world as he sees it, STICKERS! Yeah, you know those things that kids love to play with? The ones we all pass out to the kids so they can put them everywhere and influence others. Not him, stickers dilute his "anonymous" donations. You know those donations he doesn't give to begin with. If he has never joined, then how does he knows?
But alas, now that we've outed him for the anti he is, he'll now stop ALL donations, and will take his feather boa and go home. Even stopping those donations he never gave.

For all this I will bestow on him the, I'm a baby and can't function in this world or the Adam Lanza loners club award. His choice.

http://www.kcconfidential.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Crying+Baby+Natural+High+for+Some+Moms.jpg

ScottB
12-23-2012, 8:41 AM
I will not join due to the insane amount of junk mail it generates, not only from them but from other junk mail companies as well. I already get too much crap in the mail and I'm furious at my name being sold. Additionally, I don't want stickers, patches, bags or other items that will never be used to dilute my anonymous donations. I know there are a few who will piss moan and groan about my decision, and have in the past, but I could easily stop with the donations altogether.

Not going to "piss moan and groan" about your decision. You are entitled to act stupidly. I will just note that it bears no relation to reality. Do you make all of your decisions based on such rich fantasies?

I get no junk mail. Maybe a pitch for a donation once in a great while when something bad for 2A is brewing, but no more than any other nonprofit and far less than most. If you choose to make a donation, they offer some very low dollar swag and encourage you not to take it. Again, its SOP in fund raising. After more than 20 years, I see no evidence my name or information has ever been sold. In fact NRA jealously guards its membership roster for obvious reasons.

Maybe you should reboot your sense of reality because its clearly misfiring.

ArcherDog
12-23-2012, 9:52 AM
If you guys really think the NRA is going to throw us under the bus, then just think back to 1994 AW ban.
Black rifle owners and supporters CHANGED CONGRESS, and that major loss is still being felt today. I bet the NRA was even surprised by the damage to the democrap congress.

The only congress persons to publicly support another AW ban are leaving congress or are not scared of losing there seats. Everyone else hasnt said **** about supporting another AW ban, for fear of losing there jobs, and to support obammers other freedom killing plans.

Fat lot of good that did. The new regime was quite happy with the status quo that the old regime left them. There were no serious attempts by newly elected Congressional officers to overturn the AWB after 1994. If it wasn't for the sunset on the original bill, it would still be the law of the land. The NRA provided lip service and false hopes, as usual.

mag360
12-23-2012, 12:26 PM
The first time they could have gotten it overturned AND signed would have been 2000, and I sont think it was woeth the political capital in their eyes. That's what I think.

IntoForever
12-30-2012, 12:38 PM
Amazed at the responses. I get quite a bit of junk mail a day due to owning 2 companies and helping with 3 more. I did not say I don't donate, I donate way more than those who simply have a membership do and will continue to do so. Please stop acting like the libs with the childish, idiotic attacks on me, you only look pathetic and make me not want to be a donor. Simply put, the NRA needs to put my donations to better use and having a membership doesn't really mean a thing when it's all said and done, I donate!
When you have to wade through over 100 spam e-mails a day and as many as 40 crap letters a day, any less is heaven!

pitbull30
12-30-2012, 12:53 PM
This went out today.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/30/obama-makes-passing-gun-control-measures-top-2013-priority/

To all the junk mail complaints you can opt out. Also you can give up the free bags and stuff all you have to do is tell them.

Also with articles like the one above how can u not join. If they pass some crazy bill then youll be on here complaining and it will be too damn late. There are ways to get the membership free or lifetime for cheap as hell. Just search the 2A forum here. Heck u don't even have to search. It's a few posts down.

RomanDad
12-30-2012, 1:31 PM
The NRA drives me nuts for some of the same reasons stated here... The scare tactics... The ham handed outreach... Just the same, I'm a grown up. I know that its not good enough to raise money a few minutes before the votes to ban guns are cast... They need money BEFORE the shtf to elect PRO 2a candidates... And they are the only group who has the numbers to scare the hell out of candidates who might vote for gun control...

rimfire78
12-30-2012, 1:47 PM
But that doesn't change the fact that I (and others) recognize they are the only gun rights organization packing that level of bigtime political clout. To my knowledge, there is no one who can fill their shoes, and there may never be, therefore they receive my financial support.

This^^
I don't agree with most of their political posturing, including their latest idea (armed guards at schools) which seems like the ushering-in of a police state.
They don't represent the ideologies of all of their members - for sure.
However, much of what people have considered NRA scare tactics, now seem to be truths nipping at the ankles of the 2A.

SPROCKET
12-30-2012, 2:47 PM
The NRA drives me nuts for some of the same reasons stated here... The scare tactics... The ham handed outreach... Just the same, I'm a grown up. I know that its not good enough to raise money a few minutes before the votes to ban guns are cast... They need money BEFORE the shtf to elect PRO 2a candidates... And they are the only group who has the numbers to scare the hell out of candidates who might vote for gun control...

This.

Hopefully the less dimwitted gun rights organization will grow in stature and replace them. I see them as burning the future of gun rights in this country simply to scare more cash out of the geezers. It's telling that they had Glenn Beck key note their convention. He's a talking head on a network whose average viewer is 65 years old. The NRA either needs to evolve or die, and I really don't care which.

Window_Seat
12-30-2012, 3:02 PM
Some here have said they would rather just support CGF, and keep the gun rights money here in California.

Here is one that sums it up for purposes of the above, and everyone else who refuses to support the NRA, but supports CGF, SAF and the others:

The NRA isn't perfect - no really large organization with a long history is. But it's the absolute key group to hold and help make gains. Supporting CGF at the expense of supporting NRA is wildly stupid. Supporting both allows us to hold the line outside of California (while getting excellent support inside California) and advance in California in ways that the nationwide organization never could.

Never, ever, ever choose not to be an NRA member.

-Gene

Take it from "the Chairman of The Calguns Foundation" (Board of Directors). He and the other active board participants here and at the Second Amendment Foundation are the ones making it all happen here, and when they say "Join the NRA", they are saying it for a good reason. To say "I won't because of this, that and the other" is to say "I don't trust Gene Hoffman and the other active board participants who are making it all happen with my donations".

Now GODDAMIT SHUT UP and quitcher belly-achin' and whining and join the NRA (https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp) and vote pro-gun in the next election. If you don't intend to listen to guys like Hoffman and Wiese, and others who know their shi+ about this deal because of your own GODDAM self centered reasons, then you have no room to bi+ch about BASTARD politicians' orgasmic desire for confiscation. If confiscation does happen, IT'S YOUR STUPIDASS fault because you were too busy thinking of how perfect the world wasn't for your own selfish convenient reasons. They (and everyone who is in support of the NRA and CGF together) are working for YOU while you grumble and stumble over your own crap reasons for not supporting what we need you to support (as long as you are a concerned gun owner).

And for those of you who would tell these whiners to go join BRADY or other anti gun groups... STOP IT...

If you don't join the NRA because of the mail being sent to you, all you have to do is call them and ask to have your contact removed from their mailing list.

Oh and BTW, I REFUSE to have my name removed from their mailing or call list because I consider myself an active member.

Reference:
Hoffman, G. (2008-2012). The Calguns Foundation. Retrieved from http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/about/board.html

Erik.

GM4spd
12-30-2012, 4:01 PM
I would hate to think where we would be--- without the NRA! Pete

thrasherfox
12-30-2012, 4:05 PM
For what it is worth, I am an NRA member. I dont think I have ever received a phone call. I receive mail on occasion. But I dont feel I have ever been harassed by them.

=Mike=
12-30-2012, 4:19 PM
--->I donate to the CGF<--- because I want to see my money stay in CA. I've always said that I would re-join the NRA, once Roberti-Roos was repealed. It really bugged me that they didn't do more to stop that from becoming law. Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy. I know the NRA is a collective group of members, and that there is a "Cal-NRA" that is supporsed to watch out for Californians but I haven't seen much in the way of results. I still can't get a CCW in LA county, Roberti Roos is still law, the "safe handgun list" is still not being contented, etc. That's why I'm not an NRA member; I'm not saying I never will be again, I'm just going to have to see some results.


Flame away... :hide:



Speak up when you know something, sonny.

They were opposing. You just weren't watching.

Our "friends" in the GOP really "helped" us, btw.

Remember, Roberti-Roos was signed by a REPUBLICAN governor and with connivance of senior GOP legislators, and aided by turncoat "duck hunters" and "Thirty Caliber Idiots" wanting to sell out and protect their Garands and goose guns.


qupte
Then, I see and hear people using CA as the example of "what could happen" in their state if they don't support the NRA. I feel like California was "thrown to the wolves" so that they can have an example to point to when people suggest that their gun rights aren't in jeopardy.
/quote

I personally know NRA staff in CA and they're hardworking SOBs working under near-impossible odds.

BTW, if you wanna know why you can have an OLL in California due to the "the list being frozen", that's due to NRA. If you wanna know why microstamping passed but didn't go anywhere, that's the NRA.

--->I'm getting tired of talking to idiots<---.

:rofl2: When r u gonna earn your name :facepalm:

Window_Seat
12-30-2012, 4:31 PM
As an added note to the above, I've said before, this:

If not for the NRA, Hurricane Katrina confiscation would NOT have happened because confiscation would have happened LONG before that. Without the NRA, we would have nothing because legal gun dealers wouldn't exist today.

Erik.

pitbull30
12-30-2012, 4:34 PM
Some here have said they would rather just support CGF, and keep the gun rights money here in California.

This too.

I'm a NRA member but also chose to do this. Plus it's tax deductible. As you can see from my post count I've been a lurker on here for awhile, but I feel all this talk is pretty damn important. If something does come out of this at least I tried and I didn't just sit on my couch and talk crap on the net.

Excelsior
12-30-2012, 4:52 PM
I haven't joined them because I have criticized several of their actions in the public face. Holding the pro-gun rally just after Columbine without even at least holding a "moment of silence" for the people who had been hurt or killed at the shooting was a poor move.

Politically, I realize that they are the best we have when it comes to keeping the antis in politics from passing too many BS laws. I will admit that we need them, but until I see some serious change in their leadership, I won't join.

Given today's potentially dire circumstances and given the fact that you can join the NRA for $10.00, that's pure pride talking. Just about the last thing those interested in maintaining our gun rights need right now.

Excelsior
12-30-2012, 4:55 PM
Some here have said they would rather just support CGF, and keep the gun rights money here in California.

Here is one that sums it up for purposes of the above, and everyone else who refuses to support the NRA, but supports CGF, SAF and the others:

The NRA isn't perfect - no really large organization with a long history is. But it's the absolute key group to hold and help make gains. Supporting CGF at the expense of supporting NRA is wildly stupid. Supporting both allows us to hold the line outside of California (while getting excellent support inside California) and advance in California in ways that the nationwide organization never could.

Never, ever, ever choose not to be an NRA member.

-Gene


Take it from "the Chairman of The Calguns Foundation" (Board of Directors). He and the other active board participants here and at the Second Amendment Foundation are the ones making it all happen here, and when they say "Join the NRA", they are saying it for a good reason. To say "I won't because of this, that and the other" is to say "I don't trust Gene Hoffman and the other active board participants who are making it all happen with my donations".

Now GODDAMIT SHUT UP and quitcher belly-achin' and whining and join the NRA (https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/signup.asp) and vote pro-gun in the next election. If you don't intend to listen to guys like Hoffman and Wiese, and others who know their shi+ about this deal because of your own GODDAM self centered reasons, then you have no room to bi+ch about BASTARD politicians' orgasmic desire for confiscation. If confiscation does happen, IT'S YOUR STUPIDASS fault because you were too busy thinking of how perfect the world wasn't for your own selfish convenient reasons. They (and everyone who is in support of the NRA and CGF together) are working for YOU while you grumble and stumble over your own crap reasons for not supporting what we need you to support (as long as you are a concerned gun owner).

And for those of you who would tell these whiners to go join BRADY or other anti gun groups... STOP IT...

If you don't join the NRA because of the mail being sent to you, all you have to do is call them and ask to have your contact removed from their mailing list.

Oh and BTW, I REFUSE to have my name removed from their mailing or call list because I consider myself an active member.

Reference:
Hoffman, G. (2008-2012). The Calguns Foundation. Retrieved from http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/about/board.html

Erik.

Excellent post. That "Some here have said they would rather just support CGF, and keep the gun rights money here in California" rings particularly hollow given the $10.00 membership available.

dandechino
12-30-2012, 7:27 PM
In honest curiosity, what does being an NRA member actually do? The membership dues go toward mailers, magazine subscription, and organization costs I guess. My understanding is that if you want your money to actually go toward the cause you have to give to the NRA-ILA which is a separate entity by law.

dandechino
12-30-2012, 7:50 PM
I almost feel like purchasing a gun is a greater statement than belonging to the NRA. It makes the headlines when purchases are up 40% over last year or there's an ammo shortage or we have the biggest black friday ever in gun sales. It tells a story to the public at large that there is a big silent majority that will not take confiscation lightly.

http://lewrockwell.com/fedako/fedako27.1.html

It's not an either/or proposition, just stating what I feel like makes a bigger impact. I guess it could be a big loud majority but is the best way to be loud to pay membership dues to the NRA and feel like you've done your duty?

Count me as one of those who received a DVD from the NRA affiliate who then sent me a bill for month after month telling me to either pay them for the DVD or send it back at my expense.

EL_NinO619
12-30-2012, 8:20 PM
I've always been on the fence on supporting the NRA, but LaPierre blew it today. The fact that he employed a tactic that most gun owners abhor in his big speech, namely, blaming inanimate objects for violence in society (video games, movies, tv) proves that he is as out of touch as the gun-grabbers we see popping up left and right in the wake of Newtown.

LaPierre had a chance to make a reasoned and passionate argument in favor of mental health care and tougher law enforcement and he blew it. Not opening my wallet to support that incompetency.

Good, people with this attitude will also have to keep thier wallets closed when it comes to wanting to buy a new gun. Because they will be illegal to purchase. Go ahead save your $25 and "morals" but know just because they do a few things you don't agree with (S*&$ my mom does things I don't agree with but I will always support her), you lack in stepping back and looking at the big picture of things. You don't have to agree with everything, but being on this forum proves you agree with the 2nd Amendment, and the NRA is the largest voice we have in this matter. So please sit back and watch our rights be destroyed by the anti machine, no one on that side is not joining because someone said something they do not agree with.

GraveTPO
12-30-2012, 8:23 PM
I think the vast majority of people who opt out of the NRA are simply tightwads who can't bring themselves to part with whatever paltry sum it takes to join. They will rationalize that choice with a variety of ridiculous statements: "I don't agree with NRA politics." or "They send too much junk mail." But the bottom line is, these people hang on to their measly 35 bucks while freeloading on the coattails of paying members.
Can you just imagine the power of the NRA if it were 80 million members strong? EVERY single member of this board should belong to the NRA. And if you're not; if you're too cheap to cough up a tiny fraction of the cost of your next firearm to add your strengthening voice to the NRA, well, I guess you really don't care about protecting your right to own firearms.
Or you're stupid.

Excelsior
12-30-2012, 8:42 PM
I think the vast majority of people who opt out of the NRA are simply tightwads who can't bring themselves to part with whatever paltry sum it takes to join. They will rationalize that choice with a variety of ridiculous statements: "I don't agree with NRA politics." or "They send too much junk mail." But the bottom line is, these people hang on to their measly 35 bucks while freeloading on the coattails of paying members.
Can you just imagine the power of the NRA if it were 80 million members strong? EVERY single member of this board should belong to the NRA. And if you're not; if you're too cheap to cough up a tiny fraction of the cost of your next firearm to add your strengthening voice to the NRA, well, I guess you really don't care about protecting your right to own firearms.
Or you're stupid.

1.) Broke.

2.) Tightwads.

3.) Can't admit they were/are wrong to not support the NRA.

4.) Galactically ignorant.

5.) Combination of the above.

It's stunning that every gun owner is not a member at $10-35/year!

Johnny5.56
12-30-2012, 8:43 PM
Just renewed my subscription.



https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/s...gnID=bassprowy

OIFVet03
12-30-2012, 8:43 PM
They do have their problems. They are not perfect but they are the most powerful organization we have going for us. I am a member.

Excelsior
12-30-2012, 8:44 PM
In honest curiosity, what does being an NRA member actually do? The membership dues go toward mailers, magazine subscription, and organization costs I guess. My understanding is that if you want your money to actually go toward the cause you have to give to the NRA-ILA which is a separate entity by law.

Based on what? :confused:

hawk1
12-30-2012, 8:49 PM
They do have their problems. They are not perfect but they are the most powerful organization we have going for us. I am a member.

Isn't that typical with any organization? If we had more donors, more people pulling their weight, then maybe we wouldn't have the problems we have.
Sadly though we have those that cry that they'll withhold their money because we're too mean to them. Boo hoo, I'll show you... :rolleyes:

hawk1
12-30-2012, 8:52 PM
Are you saying that those people who are in favor of gun rights, but who also think that the 2A does not create a good legal foundation for gun rights, or who think that the 2A is currently being misinterpreted by court cases such as Heller should not be members of this forum? Are you saying that viewpoints such as the two examples I gave above are not welcome in the debate here?

I don't own this place, but if you're asking me, then yeah get the hell out...

TRICKSTER
12-30-2012, 10:15 PM
Im not joining the NRA because I don't agree with all their politics, who they support, how they talk, add your reason here.
This is the same attitude that got us in this position in the first place. The same attitude that keeps liberal Democrats in control of CA and the same attitude that gave us four more years of Obama.

TRICKSTER
12-30-2012, 10:25 PM
Here is a very interesting thread, in which people like Gene, Josh and Brett explain what's wrong with the NRA. I'd like to particularly draw your attention to the place where Josh and Brett state that an official statement by an NRA official "doesn't pass the smell test", or the discussion between Gene and Josh and the NRA's attorney Chuck Michel. Or the statement by Gray that "That some operators within the NRA are willing to throw the superior arguer of 2A issues under the bus because of their own personal political beliefs over probably THE largest cultural issue of our time, and that's marriage equality for same gendered couples." Bill makes fundamentally the same statement elsewhere in that thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=256399

In the interest of full disclosure: The same people who destroy the NRA in that thread (many of whom I quote above) are still strongly arguing that all gun owners and gun rights supporters should support the NRA.

Because unlike many here, they are smart enough to see the big picture.

foxtrotuniformlima
12-30-2012, 10:33 PM
I will not join due to the insane amount of junk mail it generates, not only from them but from other junk mail companies as well. I already get too much crap in the mail and I'm furious at my name being sold. Additionally, I don't want stickers, patches, bags or other items that will never be used to dilute my anonymous donations. I know there are a few who will piss moan and groan about my decision, and have in the past, but I could easily stop with the donations altogether.

I felt the same way.

I asked them to stop and they did. Imagine that.

dfletcher
12-30-2012, 10:53 PM
For me personally, that doesn't seem to exist, I am incapable of reasoning in absolutes like that. I think the only way any organization will agree with me 100% is if I bend my own morals and beliefs in some way to meet those upheld by that organization (your last sentence describes an impossibility, I'm guessing somewhat intentionally, but I enjoy a little snark with brunch so no worries).

I am wholeheartedly behind the basic idea of responsible adults owning legal firearms. I have no problems with that basic mechanic nor do I take issue with businesses that act with compassion and positive intent profiting from the legal sales or manufacturing of firearms.

My problem is that the only organizations that I have personally researched in the arena of firearms ownership do not seem to retain the ability to ebb or flow. Times and circumstances will always call for debate and flexibility, one cannot always get what one wants to steal a wise man's quote...the path of blind resistance is not one I choose to tread.

You are the "sophisticated gun owner" and voter? Understandable, but I would suggest looking for perfect and rejecting everything else isn't productive because there's no such thing as perfect. I would suppose that members of civil rights groups or the old folks (recall the "don't touch social security" mantra) weren't always in agreement, but furthering their general and in common positions were of greater importance.

What do you do to support gun ownership - write your elected representatives, belong to any pro-gun organization? Donate to CalGuns?

I'm in ACLU and you'd be hard pressed to find a group of folks with whom I have less affinity for & agree with less on many points. But overall I support their positions on civil rights and that is sufficient. It seems to me gun owners ought to focus on the big picture. CA gun owners will excuse and rationalize until we have nothing.

Jarrod
12-30-2012, 11:29 PM
Sixtus, you said: "I haven't joined them because I have criticized several of their actions in the public face. Holding the pro-gun rally just after Columbine without even at least holding a "moment of silence" for the people who had been hurt or killed at the shooting was a poor move."

Actually, they cancelled all their meetings save certain voting meetings that were required by law.

Excelsior
12-30-2012, 11:34 PM
Here is a very interesting thread, in which people like Gene, Josh and Brett explain what's wrong with the NRA. I'd like to particularly draw your attention to the place where Josh and Brett state that an official statement by an NRA official "doesn't pass the smell test", or the discussion between Gene and Josh and the NRA's attorney Chuck Michel. Or the statement by Gray that "That some operators within the NRA are willing to throw the superior arguer of 2A issues under the bus because of their own personal political beliefs over probably THE largest cultural issue of our time, and that's marriage equality for same gendered couples." Bill makes fundamentally the same statement elsewhere in that thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=256399

In the interest of full disclosure: The same people who destroy the NRA in that thread (many of whom I quote above) are still strongly arguing that all gun owners and gun rights supporters should support the NRA.

Here's an interesting quote from Mr. Hoffman (emphasis mine):

The NRA isn't perfect - no really large organization with a long history is. But it's the absolute key group to hold and help make gains. Supporting CGF at the expense of supporting NRA is wildly stupid. Supporting both allows us to hold the line outside of California (while getting excellent support inside California) and advance in California in ways that the nationwide organization never could.

Never, ever, ever choose not to be an NRA member.

-Gene

Get with the program already.

Ieyasu
12-30-2012, 11:56 PM
For example. In the last election the NRA supported they guy who signed an Assault Weapons Ban, and demonized the guy who never did anything with gun control except make it legal to carry in national parks and to transport your guns on Amtrak

Wow....Hey Rusty_Rebar, do you realize obama (lower case intentional) appointed two anti-2A supreme court justices? Bush appointed Alito and Roberts. The Supreme Court decision holding that the 2A preserves and guarantees an individual right was decided 5-4.

It's beyond me how anybody can say obama is anything but anti-gun unless they're...

dfletcher
12-31-2012, 10:25 AM
It's beyond me how anybody can say obama is anything but anti-gun unless they're...

The President is "not anti-gun" in the same way a Klansman without a rope not a dangerous racist. That each may lack the tools to do as they please for the time being ought to be little comfort.

Ieyasu
12-31-2012, 10:44 AM
The President is "not anti-gun" in the same way a Klansman without a rope not a dangerous racist. That each may lack the tools to do as they please for the time being ought to be little comfort.
LOL at the first sentence. To use your analogy, obama had some rope and used it with his supreme court justice appointments (not to mention lower court appointments). It continually amazes me how folks, especially calgun posters (hopefully a VERY small number, but even so...) try to defend obama's stance on guns. (That last comment not directed at you, of course, dfletcher.)

bgoldber
12-31-2012, 10:53 AM
I am one of the folks you are speaking of. I'll go ahead and bite this morning.

Reasons I do not support the NRA:

1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors, their actions show no inclination towards the interests of the people or even elastic and reasonable thinking or debate.

2. I disagree with almost every political cause they support.

3. It's too easy for me to see through the walls of their poor logic and (what I consider predatory) politics.

4. I do not agree with the way the NRA interprets the 2nd amendment, the constitution as a whole, the way our country should function or the relations and workings of our social structures.

Reasons I generally do not speak about it on this site:

1. I do not come here for the politics (although I do occasionally drop in so I can see how some of you that I do not share opinions with think...you never know when, where or who you might learn something new from); I almost solely come here for information and dialog pertaining to the legal firearms I may own or be interested in learning more about.

2. Why go to church just to tell the parishoners that their prophets are wrong?

^ THIS +1000.

Ieyasu
12-31-2012, 10:56 AM
1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors,
bgoldber,

Since you wrote +1000, can you give us some specifics for the above, please?

foxtrotuniformlima
12-31-2012, 10:58 AM
Wow....Hey Rusty_Rebar, do you realize obama (lower case intentional) appointed two anti-2A supreme court justices? Bush appointed Alito and Roberts. The Supreme Court decision holding that the 2A preserves and guarantees an individual right was decided 5-4.

It's beyond me how anybody can say obama is anything but anti-gun unless they're...

Sorry to side track this thread but something needs to be pointed out.

I highly doubt The POTUS sat down and said, " Now who can I find that is anti-2A". Clearly by his actions of the last 4 years, gun control was not on his list of important things to do. Obamacare was. He selected judges who would support The Affordable Healthcare Act. They just happen to be afraid of guns and think that they are not a necessary part of a modern civilized society.

While the 2A may be the single most important thing in your life, for most others it is not.

Ieyasu
12-31-2012, 11:08 AM
While the 2A may be the single most important thing in your life, for most others it is not.
You are changing the subject.

A poster criticized the NRA for backing Bush over obama because obama "never did anything with gun control."

The fact is obama, prior to being elected president had an anti-gun record. As a senator he voted against the nomination of both Alito and Roberts. He voted against the law that exempted gun manufacturer's from civil lawsuits when a firearm was used in a crime.

Now you may not like Alito and Roberts for other reasons, but that's not what's being discussed here. To repeat, the NRA's endorsement of Bush over obama, was called into question, from a GUN RIGHTS perspective.

And as far as obama's methodology for selecting judges, he's far more likely to appoint an anti-gun rights justice than Bush was. So again, endorsing Bush over obama, from a gun rights perspective should have been obvious, rather than been criticized.

foxtrotuniformlima
12-31-2012, 12:02 PM
You are changing the subject.

A poster criticized the NRA for backing Bush over obama because obama "never did anything with gun control."

The fact is obama, prior to being elected president had an anti-gun record. As a senator he voted against the nomination of both Alito and Roberts. He voted against the law that exempted gun manufacturer's from civil lawsuits when a firearm was used in a crime.

Now you may not like Alito and Roberts for other reasons, but that's not what's being discussed here. To repeat, the NRA's endorsement of Bush over obama, was called into question, from a GUN RIGHTS perspective.

And as far as obama's methodology for selecting judges, he's far more likely to appoint an anti-gun rights justice than Bush was. So again, endorsing Bush over obama, from a gun rights perspective should have been obvious, rather than been criticized.

PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND.

HE DID NOT APPOINT THEM OR ANY OTHER JUDGES BECAUSE THEY ARE ANTI-GUN RIGHTS. HE APPOINTED THEM BECAUSE THEY SUPPORT OTHER ISSUES HE FINDS MORE IMPORTANT. GET IT ? PROBABLY NOT.

Ieyasu
12-31-2012, 12:47 PM
No matter how large a font-type you use, you continue ignoring my point.

Regardless of his selection method, and you don't know what criterias he used for sure, obama is far more likley to appoint anti-gun rights judges than Bush was. The NRA's judgement was correct in this case, and that's the only point I was addressing, since a poster was criticizing the NRA for backing Bush. Both clinton and obama have appointed anti-gun rights judges. Reagan and Bush (both) have better judicial appointments. See a trend?

Put another way, regardless of whether the 2A was a primary, secondary, or tertiary concern of obama's the result was as expected by the NRA, therefore its judgement was correct in backing Bush.

"GET IT? PROBABLY NOT."

dfletcher
12-31-2012, 5:53 PM
I highly doubt The POTUS sat down and said, " Now who can I find that is anti-2A". Clearly by his actions of the last 4 years, gun control was not on his list of important things to do. Obamacare was. He selected judges who would support The Affordable Healthcare Act. They just happen to be afraid of guns and think that they are not a necessary part of a modern civilized society.

While the 2A may be the single most important thing in your life, for most others it is not.



I tend to agree with you, but in the end there's no difference in the result.

We know from his public statements the President is exclusionary when it comes to SCOTUS nominees and Roe. As such, I don't believe he would have nominated a pro-lifer regardless of how well that person's other belief's happened to line up with his own. He doesn't accord the 2nd Amendment the same regard. In his nominees we see what the President values.

dunndeal
12-31-2012, 6:13 PM
If you want to see results: Second Amendment Foundation

Harder line than the NRA (though less effect): Gun Owners of America

results in CA: Calguns Foundation

there are other groups worthy of your support, membership, and money in addition to the NRA

though the more members and money the NRA has, the bigger and stronger our gorilla gets


If Godzilla is trashing Tokyo and King Kong is the only thing available, better to support the big ape than to sit back and talk trash about the big ape and watch Tokyo get leveled by Godzilla.


Yes, I know that was a HORRIBLE analogy.

Not really, didn't KK kick G's butt?

adjuster760
12-31-2012, 8:03 PM
You fools who are arguing against better join the NRA. I disagree with probably 50% of what the NRA says and does, but it's your freedom or nothing. Without the right to bear arms you are a SLAVE. Honestly, nothing else matters. Simple fact: no one is going to fight for that right more than the NRA. GOA is awesome and everyone should join them as well as a hedge against some of the shortcomings of the NRA, but they are not as influential--more libertarian and not as mainline as the NRA.

2009_gunner
12-31-2012, 8:32 PM
^ THIS +1000.

Why do you even own one gun? You should find revolvers and semis repugnant.

vector16
12-31-2012, 8:54 PM
On occassion I see folks around here who seem to be opposed to joining the NRA. They usually to not state thier reasons. Can any of you folks speculate on why they would be so against the idea? Thanks...

They just think its wasted money and that is the attitude that got this Phyco re-elected. The attituide of What are you giving me in return? they can't see the big picture, Its not what they are giving them, its what they are trying to prevent from being taken away. Some people just can't see that far pass their own asses. Its like knowing that you have to **** and not knowing that you should squat first.

Ieyasu
12-31-2012, 8:56 PM
Why do you even own one gun? You should find revolvers and semis repugnant.

I'm still waiting for his response to my question:


1. They are a political lobbying group that obfuscate too many truths with the intentions of profit and protecting the firearms industry heads and investors,

bgoldber,

Since you wrote +1000, can you give us some specifics for the above, please?

Old_Bald_Guy
12-31-2012, 11:52 PM
Gotta love the entertainment. It's like reality TV, only better (Honey BooBoo's voice grates on the nerves after awhile).

OneAvgWhiteGuy
01-01-2013, 12:17 AM
"Join the NRA or you're an idiot!"

I'm sure there's plenty of people sitting on the fence about joining, and they'll come across a thread like this one. The vibe it gives off is going to push a lot of people away, regardless of the good the NRA does.

My opinion, they need a serious image makeover.

GW
01-01-2013, 2:59 AM
"Join the NRA or you're an idiot!"

I'm sure there's plenty of people sitting on the fence about joining, and they'll come across a thread like this one. The vibe it gives off is going to push a lot of people away, regardless of the good the NRA does.

My opinion, they need a serious image makeover.

So join and become a voting member.:rolleyes:
Until someone creates a better organization to protect our gun rights I will keep supporting my NRA, warts and all.

themandylion
01-01-2013, 3:55 AM
I am an NRA member.

That said, the reasons some people legitimately do not join or support the NRA can be seen in the difference between Wayne LaPierre's and Larry Pratt's responses to Sandy Hook propaganda.

Far too often, the NRA is willing to compromise "shall not be infringed." They've done it in the past, and they might do it again. We shall see. Yes, they have done much to slow down - but not stop - gangster government. Their work has been valuable, but not anything near a panacea for the cancer we face.

I stopped reading the American Rifleman (I am subscribed to the e-version only), largely for two reasons: 1) they made an effort to always note in their blurbs about Americans using short arms for self-defense that they "had a license to carry," and 2) worship of those who actually enforce the unconstitutional, immoral, and unjust decrees of the government, "law enforcement." It doesn't mean an iota of a damn if someone had a "license" to carry: the Second Amendment is everyone's "license" to carry. Just report that someone used a gun to protect themselves or their loved ones. And while I respect the many peace officers out there who have noble intentions and make many sacrifices, I have no regard for those who are, indeed, merely "law enforcement," doing whatever gangster government tells them to.

mag360
01-01-2013, 6:53 AM
Themandylion, that is enough to tick you off? That they put in American Rifleman basically a press clipping that includes "license to carry". They dont put "license to carry" when they talk about shooting an intruder in the home. What a silly thing to get upset at.

The Obama apologists are coming out of the woodwork. Fall in line you wanna be agent provocateurs. Who else is out there on the national stage?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

Crickets....

Dgoldber and foxtrotuniformlima?

IntoForever
01-03-2013, 9:18 PM
I felt the same way.

I asked them to stop and they did. Imagine that.
I've been a member from the time I was 9 to the time I was 20. I no longer give a sh*t what it takes to get off a list. I've been donating anonymously since (21 years now) and from $200 a year to $500 a year when work is good. At this point, who cares if I'm a member, except mental midgets who want to act like liberals and point fingers and partake in childish name calling/taunting?
:beatdeadhorse5:

Excelsior
01-05-2013, 1:52 AM
I've been a member from the time I was 9 to the time I was 20. I no longer give a sh*t what it takes to get off a list. I've been donating anonymously since (21 years now) and from $200 a year to $500 a year when work is good. At this point, who cares if I'm a member, except mental midgets who want to act like liberals and point fingers and partake in childish name calling/taunting?


Opposing politicians...

uyoga
01-05-2013, 11:40 AM
There is NO legitimate reason not to become a supporting member of NRA - other than finfncial inability.

joemadas
01-05-2013, 4:21 PM
According to NRA sources, they are adding 8000, yes thousand, new members each day. We added somewhere aroun 300 new members today at the Ontario Gun Show. BTW, the attendance there is estamated at 10,000. Record numbers.