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View Full Version : An idea to help prevent tragedy other than banning


Cobrafreak
12-20-2012, 7:57 PM
So I have my CCW renewal appointment today at Sac County Sheriff. (everything went fine and I will get my new permit shortly via mail) I'm in the upper waiting room waiting to be called in to hand in my paperwork and I'm talking to the other guy in the room who is waiting for the same. We are speaking about the latest news of the tragedy, the gun ban talk, etc. This fellow is a life-long hunter. Doesn't know what it's like NOT to hunt. Not really an AR or AK guy, just an avid sportsman. Anyway, he is talking about hunter safety courses that he has done frequently and has his kids go through. Then I was talking about the CCW classroom and range training that we both needed to do in accordance with the permit. Lots of training for safety. When discussing the school shooting in CT we both noted that it was a lack of safeguards (training) that caused the Shooters Mother to either not secure Her AR or had either left the combo of the safe in a known place or (stupidly) let her Son, the Shooter know the combo. I was thinking that maybe it would be a good idea for everyone buying any kind of gun to go through safety training in order to possess their gun(s). Yes, you need to do the quickie test and 10 days later you can pick up your gun. But you have not proven that you know about safe handling of the weapon or safe storage procedures, or know that it's not a toy, it's serious business. I really believe that if we had to do an every two-year class with an NRA certified trainer to procure a card that proves we are up to date, the tragedy in CT and heat on All of US right now would be happening. Training breeds better, safer gun owners. Better training and safety means less accidents. I would gladly have mandatory training for ownership of guns that can do a lot of damage in the wrong hands. If We raise the bar a little it may save lives and freedoms.

aklover_91
12-20-2012, 8:17 PM
Other issues aside, how do you pay for it?

You start charging one or two or three or four hundred dollars for a day or two days or a week of classroom training there are A LOT of people who won't be able to buy a gun simply because they can't afford the class or can't afford to take the time off.

At the end of the day, anyone can pass a class that doesn't do anything more than teach some common sense. You can't teach the mindset it takes to apply that.

Moonshine
12-20-2012, 8:45 PM
I've said this for a long time and that's background checks are key... Bans don't accomplish anything in a nation where there's more guns than people. And features based bans are just ridiculous because we all know in the wrong hands an SKS with a stripper clip bandolier can be every bit as dangerous as an AR-15...

Cobrafreak
12-20-2012, 8:47 PM
Other issues aside, how do you pay for it?

You start charging one or two or three or four hundred dollars for a day or two days or a week of classroom training there are A LOT of people who won't be able to buy a gun simply because they can't afford the class or can't afford to take the time off.

At the end of the day, anyone can pass a class that doesn't do anything more than teach some common sense. You can't teach the mindset it takes to apply that.

Come on now, a CCW training class or a hunter safety course is much cheaper than that and is about one full day. Not even close to the price to a firearm. It would be something like $100.00 every two years.

The point of any class is to teach to people what they don't know, or may have forgot. Take professional drivers for instance. They know how to drive, yet they have mandatory safety training every year. Why? It instills safety and common sense. If you don't take it, you can't drive professionally anymore. I have been at a gun range before that I had to duck for cover because the person next to me didn't know what they were doing safely, yet they were able to buy the rifle themselves. Now what do they do when they get home? Put it under the bed or in the closet unlocked? Who knows. Bottom line is we need to do something to make our weapons safer for everyone.

armygunsmith
12-20-2012, 8:56 PM
No freaking way. Do you have to go back to the DMV to re-certify that you can drive a car? No. Guess what? Driving is a privilege, not a right. I don't know, but it seems as though more people are starting to side (or accept some of their propositions) the with antis. The Second Amendment make firearm ownership a RIGHT, not privilege like driving. As such, I don't believe that my rights should subject to testing, fees, or licensing.

I'm a big believer of personal responsibility. Does this mean that some people will hurt themselves or others? Sure does. I prefer freedom over more government regulation and I accept those risks.

Nessal
12-20-2012, 9:05 PM
Nothing you proposed will prevent another shooting period. To be more clear, there is nothing anyone can do to prevent any type of mass shooting. The only way to reduce the amount of body count is to arm the good guys.

First of all, it's a right. There should not be anything barring anyone of legal age to purchase a firearm unless they are mentally defective or if you are a felon. Second, just because someone is found mentally defective does not mean they can not get a firearm. The guns used in the CT shooting were not even owned by the perp. A mentally defective person can still get firearms though illegal means.

I'm tired of people that want to compromise. I have a few friends that own firearms and they all seem to want to "compromise". Yet they don't understand that ANY compromise will not prevent anything. It will only serve to erode your rights even more.

Nessal
12-20-2012, 9:11 PM
Another thing that I want to address is that being forced to take a course or go through a "psychological test" is a very slippery slope. You are giving a group of people the power to determine if you are eligible to defend yourself. First, when has absolute power not corrupt? Second, self defense is a human right. Third, it's a slippery slope for someone else to determine if you are mentally fit to obtain a firearm. It can be used as a mechanism to control ownership more than you think.

Everyone feels that we "have to do something" after a tragedy. I agree that we have to do something. But the correct thing to do is to arm the teachers not make it easier for another deranged lunatic to kill more people as these are the effects of more gun control laws.

aklover_91
12-20-2012, 9:12 PM
Come on now, a CCW training class or a hunter safety course is much cheaper than that and is about one full day. Not even close to the price to a firearm. It would be something like $100.00 every two years.

The point of any class is to teach to people what they don't know, or may have forgot. Take professional drivers for instance. They know how to drive, yet they have mandatory safety training every year. Why? It instills safety and common sense. If you don't take it, you can't drive professionally anymore. I have been at a gun range before that I had to duck for cover because the person next to me didn't know what they were doing safely, yet they were able to buy the rifle themselves. Now what do they do when they get home? Put it under the bed or in the closet unlocked? Who knows. Bottom line is we need to do something to make our weapons safer for everyone.

So say I want a gun for home defense. I'm poor. You mandate I need to take a safety course at a cost of $100 and a time commitment of 8 (which I have to take of work without pay, because I work a ****ty job with ****ty hours).

Now you mandate I need a safe, because for what you're proposing a lock box or a cable lock wouldn't really be suffiecient.

I go look at safes, and a pick out the ****tiest one I can find for $200.

Figure I work for $8.50 an hour, I'm out $368 dollars (a pretty significant chunk of change to me), plus the cost of my $250 shotgun.

You've more than doubled the cost of my gun for home defense, which is irrelevant if I can't get the time off work or can't get permission to put a safe in my ****ty shoe box of an apartment.

I might not also be able to use the gun to actually defend my home, because I need to keep it locked in my safe and by the time I get it out anyone kicking my door in is already on me.

You've effectively denied my right in about three different ways, but you don't have a problem with it because maybe possibly perhaps I might not be as handy with a piece as you and you can afford to eat the cost.

You see why someone might have a problem with this yet?

OIFVet03
12-20-2012, 11:04 PM
Self defense is a human right. Everybody has that right. We need more armed people. An armed society is a polite society. If everybody was armed, there would be virtually no crime. Any time anybody tried, they would be stopped immediately.

SwissFluCase
12-20-2012, 11:09 PM
OP is thinking outside the box and that is good. We live in a post Heller world now, and banning is becoming less of an option. Just remember, coercion under threat of felony is not likely to pass constitutional muster. Only the carrot will work, not the stick.

How about 50% off a Garand from the CMP with an Appleseed type of shooting clinic?

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Bill Carson
12-20-2012, 11:29 PM
So I have my CCW renewal appointment today at Sac County Sheriff. (everything went fine and I will get my new permit shortly via mail) I'm in the upper waiting room waiting to be called in to hand in my paperwork and I'm talking to the other guy in the room who is waiting for the same. We are speaking about the latest news of the tragedy, the gun ban talk, etc. This fellow is a life-long hunter. Doesn't know what it's like NOT to hunt. Not really an AR or AK guy, just an avid sportsman. Anyway, he is talking about hunter safety courses that he has done frequently and has his kids go through. Then I was talking about the CCW classroom and range training that we both needed to do in accordance with the permit. Lots of training for safety. When discussing the school shooting in CT we both noted that it was a lack of safeguards (training) that caused the Shooters Mother to either not secure Her AR or had either left the combo of the safe in a known place or (stupidly) let her Son, the Shooter know the combo. I was thinking that maybe it would be a good idea for everyone buying any kind of gun to go through safety training in order to possess their gun(s). Yes, you need to do the quickie test and 10 days later you can pick up your gun. But you have not proven that you know about safe handling of the weapon or safe storage procedures, or know that it's not a toy, it's serious business. I really believe that if we had to do an every two-year class with an NRA certified trainer to procure a card that proves we are up to date, the tragedy in CT and heat on All of US right now would be happening. Training breeds better, safer gun owners. Better training and safety means less accidents. I would gladly have mandatory training for ownership of guns that can do a lot of damage in the wrong hands. If We raise the bar a little it may save lives and freedoms.
Duck and cover because you are going to get flamed but don't fret you are only about the 100th person I have seen get flamed for your view regarding gun ownership rights. You do realize that Cal-Guns is fighting to get all the hoops that one has to jump through to get a CCW permit eliminated and you want to add more for people just to exercise a basic constitutional right.

SilverTauron
12-20-2012, 11:42 PM
So I have my CCW renewal appointment today at Sac County Sheriff. (everything went fine and I will get my new permit shortly via mail) I'm in the upper waiting room waiting to be called in to hand in my paperwork and I'm talking to the other guy in the room who is waiting for the same. We are speaking about the latest news of the tragedy, the gun ban talk, etc. This fellow is a life-long hunter. Doesn't know what it's like NOT to hunt. Not really an AR or AK guy, just an avid sportsman. Anyway, he is talking about hunter safety courses that he has done frequently and has his kids go through. Then I was talking about the CCW classroom and range training that we both needed to do in accordance with the permit. Lots of training for safety. When discussing the school shooting in CT we both noted that it was a lack of safeguards (training) that caused the Shooters Mother to either not secure Her AR or had either left the combo of the safe in a known place or (stupidly) let her Son, the Shooter know the combo. I was thinking that maybe it would be a good idea for everyone buying any kind of gun to go through safety training in order to possess their gun(s). Yes, you need to do the quickie test and 10 days later you can pick up your gun. But you have not proven that you know about safe handling of the weapon or safe storage procedures, or know that it's not a toy, it's serious business. I really believe that if we had to do an every two-year class with an NRA certified trainer to procure a card that proves we are up to date, the tragedy in CT and heat on All of US right now would be happening. Training breeds better, safer gun owners. Better training and safety means less accidents. I would gladly have mandatory training for ownership of guns that can do a lot of damage in the wrong hands. If We raise the bar a little it may save lives and freedoms.

The case of the Winnenden Incident shoots this post down like a Syrian jet in Jerusalem.

Germany suffered a school shooting where a gun owner's son stole his dad's legally owned Beretta 92FS . Germany's gun laws require each gun to have a separate discretionary issue license to own, one which won't be even processed unless the shooter is a documented competitor.Gun owners must pass a competency test and comply with safe storage requirements. Despite those steps it didn't stop the son from stealing one of his dad's guns. The father was prosecuted by the German Courts for 16 counts of involuntary manslaughter thanks to his son's criminal acts, one for each victim.

It goes back to the core truth that you cannot deter a capital murderer with the threat of a misdemeanor gun charge.

All your idea would do is make gun ownership impractical or impossible for many law abiding citizens, some of whom are not in a position to purchase a properly secured gun safe which has to be bolted into a wall or floorplate. A safe which isn't secured to the building it occupies only consolidates the guns for easy theft by crooks.

Grayling14
12-21-2012, 12:34 AM
Not only the CT shooting, but all of the shootings involving innocent victims are truly tragedies. I don't in any way intend to demean those poor victim's deaths, or sound callous, but consider this; each year in the U.S. several thousand people become victims of homicide involving firearms, but over two million people successfully defend themselves from violent crime because they had access to a firearm for self defense. Is it worth relegating the second group to victimization to potentially protect the first group?

Whatisthis?
12-21-2012, 2:17 AM
I understand your reasoning behind it, but I don't need a certificate to tell me that I know how to properly store my firearms. I imagine 99.99999% of other people feel the same way. If you are unsure about how to store your firearms and you are looking for advice, you can find it by googling it in 5 seconds.

TeddyBallgame
12-21-2012, 4:32 AM
IDK, how do you 'teach' someone to not be unstable? All the training in the world will not stop deranged people from committing these types of crimes...it may better teach law abiding gun owners about safeguarding, but, that, in itself, will not necessarily stop things like this from happening

Yes, you can raise the bar, but, when an emotionally disturbed person decides to act out, they will find ways to obtain what they want and still leave their mark...its unpredictable, practically unforeseeable, how can you possibly regulate that issue?

I'm all for good training, safety, things like that...it has its place, but, the real remedy is...THERE IS NO REMEDY...that's my belief, and, when society gets a better grip on the reality of that, maybe the gun aspect of it will die down

Cobrafreak
12-21-2012, 4:34 AM
All I am saying is if We as freedom loving, Gun loving Americans are either unwilling or unable to raise the bar for more safety, it will be raised for Us without our input. And that will be bad. They (everyone else but us) want to take away all we have to do with. What ideas can YOU think of? I would like to know.

TeddyBallgame
12-21-2012, 4:36 AM
just a thought....

I wonder how many gun classes our forefathers took before they armed themselves :D

kcbrown
12-21-2012, 5:08 AM
All I am saying is if We as freedom loving, Gun loving Americans are either unwilling or unable to raise the bar for more safety, it will be raised for Us without our input. And that will be bad. They (everyone else but us) want to take away all we have to do with. What ideas can YOU think of? I would like to know.

Just remember: you asked.

If you want to ensure that everyone gets training, then make at least two semesters' worth of firearms training a mandatory part of the public school curriculum. It'll take a generation for the end result to show itself, but show itself it will.

It's roughly how our forefathers did it (except their training was probably from their parents, though it may have also been at school. On that I don't know at all).


Seems to me it's time to return to the old ways in a lot of respects. For one, with respect to firearms training. For another, with respect to regard for liberty.


Every time something happens, people start busting out restrictions that they think might solve the problem. Has it never occurred to you, as it obviously never occurs to them, that the problem might actually be solved by increasing liberty, rather than decreasing it?

In this instance, if you want to minimize the damage that a mass murderer can do (you can never fully prevent them from making the attempt), then let the school personnel who wish to carry firearms at schools do so. It's an unpopular sentiment, and one I know won't gain traction because we've managed to transition from a country that loves liberty to a country that hates it, but it would be effective because the only way to minimize the damage that a mass murderer can do is by maximizing the chance that someone who is right there can respond with decisive and immediate force.

ubet
12-21-2012, 6:58 AM
op with all sincerity you are an idiot.!

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

Mister Demeanor
12-21-2012, 7:11 AM
The only sensible way to protect schools from future shootings is to put an armed gaurd in front of every school. It's not easily accomplished, nor is it a complete solution. It should have been implemented after Colombine, rather than going after legal firearm owners. After the Sandy Hook rampage, I heard a retired FBI news advisor spouting off about how you can't place a gaurd in front of every school. If this is the case, then these poor kids and their families, are apparently victims of economic ignorance.

Neo Sharkey
12-21-2012, 7:23 AM
Everyone feels that we "have to do something" after a tragedy. I agree that we have to do something. But the correct thing to do is to arm the teachers not make it easier for another deranged lunatic to kill more people as these are the effects of more gun control laws.

Exactly. I've been pointing it out to people at work. If we have to do something, lets make must issue CCW laws, and allow CCW holders to carry legally on school grounds. A teacher with a firearm can defend against everything from a maniac with a gun to a maniac with a butcher knife.

And to cut off the "What if a teacher goes crazy" straw man argument...if a teacher goes nuts, they could carry a gun in without a permit as well! Or a 5 gallon jug of gasoline, etc. Ideally another teacher would be in position to stop them (and would have a much better chance of getting there in time to help than the local PD)

Mike82110
12-21-2012, 7:36 AM
....
I'm tired of people that want to compromise. I have a few friends that own firearms and they all seem to want to "compromise". Yet they don't understand that ANY compromise will not prevent anything. It will only serve to erode your rights even more.

I absolutely agree, banning firearms, new tougher gun laws, will not stop a determined, disturbed person or persons from doing this again. It's been happening well before firearms were even invented. I believe it will be much more effective to arm more citizens to protect themselves, their families, and their communities from attacks like these.

If we don't protect, and take a stand for our 2a rights, then we will lose them, and then once they know they can accomplish that, what's next? Our government is supposed to be for the people, by the people.. Not the other way around.

Cobrafreak
12-21-2012, 7:43 AM
op with all sincerity you are an idiot.!

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2

Sir, you obviously are huge on flaming, but this is a forum to speak proactively on ideas. If I've offended you then I'm sorry. I would like to hear your ideas to increase safety, protect lives, and defend the 2nd ammendment.

robcoe
12-21-2012, 7:44 AM
So I have my CCW renewal appointment today at Sac County Sheriff. (everything went fine and I will get my new permit shortly via mail) I'm in the upper waiting room waiting to be called in to hand in my paperwork and I'm talking to the other guy in the room who is waiting for the same. We are speaking about the latest news of the tragedy, the gun ban talk, etc. This fellow is a life-long hunter. Doesn't know what it's like NOT to hunt. Not really an AR or AK guy, just an avid sportsman. Anyway, he is talking about hunter safety courses that he has done frequently and has his kids go through. Then I was talking about the CCW classroom and range training that we both needed to do in accordance with the permit. Lots of training for safety. When discussing the school shooting in CT we both noted that it was a lack of safeguards (training) that caused the Shooters Mother to either not secure Her AR or had either left the combo of the safe in a known place or (stupidly) let her Son, the Shooter know the combo. I was thinking that maybe it would be a good idea for everyone buying any kind of gun to go through safety training in order to possess their gun(s). Yes, you need to do the quickie test and 10 days later you can pick up your gun. But you have not proven that you know about safe handling of the weapon or safe storage procedures, or know that it's not a toy, it's serious business. I really believe that if we had to do an every two-year class with an NRA certified trainer to procure a card that proves we are up to date, the tragedy in CT and heat on All of US right now would be happening. Training breeds better, safer gun owners. Better training and safety means less accidents. I would gladly have mandatory training for ownership of guns that can do a lot of damage in the wrong hands. If We raise the bar a little it may save lives and freedoms.

How about this, instead of singling out gun owners and people who want to own guns, since owning a gun is a fundamental, named right(similar to a trial by a jury of your peers) make it mandatory for everyone, gun owner, anti-gun, pacifist, whatever, similar to jury duty. Anyone of legal age to own a gun and who is not prohibited is required to do firearms training on a regular basis, no exceptions. You show up, and you are not excused until you pass.

Also, paragraphs are your friend.

SKSer
12-21-2012, 7:46 AM
OP, I don't think it will pass constitutional muster. look at the handgun safety certificate, (and someone correct me if im wrong) but the anti's tried to make it harder and if they had their way, that thing would be 1000 questions long and look like a final for someone studying to be an astrophysicist. but instead you get questions like "You should point the barrel at? A) your face B) your car C) your target D) your foot.

I have been trying to work out doing my hunters safety course and it has been a pain with me cause the local shop splits it between two Saturdays and scheduling it for me is a pain in the butt. Now if I had to do it twice a year for my guns i would be having problem, but even though the anti's think that is what the second amendment is all about, hunting isn't a right.

We need to quit thinking about throwing a couple of peanuts at the Lion, this crap isnt a game. The anti's want to EFF us big time, and we need to be focusing on what we are going to do from there.

Hoooper
12-21-2012, 8:03 AM
imagine the outrage if you needed to take classes and pay a fee to exercise your first amendment right

El Toro
12-21-2012, 8:17 AM
Dont forget that the antis are usually of the same ilk that will tax anything they can. If you mandate a training course, I can guarantee that the fees will include a big "administrative fee" that goes to pay for some lazy govt employee (or a couple dozen more likely) who owe their jobs to the party that invented the tax. Hence, as Eddy Murphy once opined about Herpes, "That sh**s like luggage, you keep it forever".

TripleThreat
12-21-2012, 8:22 AM
1. Police at every school campus, mall, theater or large gathering in the Nation
2. Free mandatory mental health care for anyone that wants to commit suicide or kill others
3. No weapons in a home were a mentally ill person lives
4. Enforce the laws already on the books for offenders.
5. Make all high-capacity magazine illegal (yes, gun owners should put some skin in the game to). Either that or be willing to give up your AR all together. Personally, I'd prefer to live with a 10 round magazine.

Triple

Anschiss
12-21-2012, 8:52 AM
1. Police at every school campus, mall, theater or large gathering in the Nation
2. Free mandatory mental health care for anyone that wants to commit suicide or kill others
3. No weapons in a home were a mentally ill person lives
4. Enforce the laws already on the books for offenders.
5. Make all high-capacity magazine illegal (yes, gun owners should put some skin in the game to). Either that or be willing to give up your AR all together. Personally, I'd prefer to live with a 10 round magazine.

Triple

1. That is the case for such locale already. It's the path with least resistance that makes the paper.
3. Effectively having mentally ill children forfeits your right to defend yourself?
5. That would seem like a fair compromise except any civilian killing kamikaze can easily acquire one and not show up to court for it.

TripleThreat
12-21-2012, 9:00 AM
I was thinking "adults" (or at least those over 16) regarding the mentally ill. It's not perfection, nothing will be, but it's a start.

I'd love to hear your ideas.

Triple

motorhead
12-21-2012, 9:32 AM
just a thought, how about putting nuts in nuthouses where they belong? screw dr. phil, break out the straitjackets and the thorazine.

tcrpe
12-21-2012, 9:40 AM
motorhead got it. Box 'em up, they don't play well with others.

ubet
12-21-2012, 3:50 PM
Sir, you obviously are huge on flaming, but this is a forum to speak proactively on ideas. If I've offended you then I'm sorry. I would like to hear your ideas to increase safety, protect lives, and defend the 2nd ammendment.

First we need less laws and regulation along with not destroying ourselves from with in. To say that we need to pay and be licensed in safety to legally own guns does nothing. Do you know why criminals are criminals, because they don't care about your restrictions or the law.

What we need to understand is that every day in America about 3000 people defend themselves in a legal manner with firearms. 29 people were killed its tragic yes but over 2k more are alive that day because of guns. We also need to realize no matter what bad things happen

Arming teachers is a good idea until you realize the gang problem in schools you are creating a huge liability and might be putting more teachers lives in danger by kids knowing their teacher might have a gun. Same reason as why prison guards dont carry guns when they are in with inmates.

Their are 3 options do nothing and realize this is going to happen. 2 put a military unit on patrol in every school they are already trained and paid for and could probably use this as training. 3 fence all our schools give them one entry and exit point with metal detectors and armed guards think tsa at airports. None are good options.

Op, now to you. You come onto a pro 2a forum that's working to lessen our 2a restrictions and you advocate for more govt interference what did you expect to be met with, praise? That was a major fail.

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wjc
12-21-2012, 8:23 PM
Just to clarify, you do have to go through a "safe handling" demonstration as part of the HSC.

Since most people buying guns are adults, they have the option of buying additional or specific training that isn't government mandated. That's called "free choice".

There is also the stigma about firearms that has to be addressed. As was previously mentioned, a lot of people were "trained" by relatives in safe handling and shooting.

I think much of the problems we see nowadays is the lack of familiarity and respect people have lost for firearms.

NJDADDY
12-21-2012, 9:18 PM
There may be an idea that is currently active in communities across the country. The organization Watch Dog Dad's provides a completely voluntary action by Fathers and role models to help out at our schools during any given day. http://www.fathers.com/content/index...d=21&Itemid=60

My point with this is....the unlikeliness of a gun free zone ever being repealed is too scary for those with a Progressive/Protectionist mindset. We do have more and more CHL folks out there who are law abiding and level headed folks. Given the Lawfullnes of a CCW carrier to be within the law per (626.9Cal PC) generally prohibits guns in schools, it has an exemption, located in PC 626.9(l), for Peace Officers, retired Peace Officers, and licensed CCW holders.

Would it make logical sense to conceal our defenses against Mentally ill/ Evil individuals bent on causing heartbreak for all, with a volunteer who will be part of the program and within the law, without scaring our kids with militaristic visuals and creating more targets(uniformed officers) for the Bad Guy.

Bbonez
12-21-2012, 9:31 PM
Im too busy to take another class, how many times should I need to hear the same thing?

NRA: 'Only Way To Stop A Bad Guy With A Gun Is With A Good Guy With A Gun'

Well said by the NRA today!

MOA1
12-21-2012, 9:35 PM
SHALL ISSUE. Hell, just make carry legal IF you can buy it, you can carry it. Period. No need for shall issue.

Jesus, how plain does it need to be. The stupidity of this conversation makes me lose faith in humanity.