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View Full Version : Copy of DROS does not establish ownership ?


Rusty Scabbard
12-19-2012, 5:07 PM
Reading a few cases here, this seems to come up occasionally. Most recently in Hawthorne.
If the DROS does not establish the rightful owner, what does ? Afterall, it is a dealer record of sale by definition. Is the concern that perhaps you 'sold' it, but somehow retained possession ?
Is this a statewide LEO policy, or only something that happens with overly aggressive or miss-informed agencies and LEO's ?

winnre
12-19-2012, 5:11 PM
A paper cash register receipt?

bwiese
12-19-2012, 5:16 PM
Doesn't prove you actually took delivery...

morfeeis
12-19-2012, 5:20 PM
It's never been up to the owner to prove lawful possession, it's always been up to a LEA to prove they don't own it.

Wiz-of-Awd
12-19-2012, 5:47 PM
Doesn't prove you actually took delivery...

So shall we answer Federal Form 4473?

A.W.D.

mc21
12-19-2012, 5:51 PM
I still have the DROS for the gun I bought....then sold later on....

NotEnufGarage
12-19-2012, 10:10 PM
How about a firearms inventory log and digital pictures?

bohoki
12-19-2012, 10:17 PM
well there is no information on a rifle dros

i am curious about pistols if the person never picks up the gun does it stay registered to them and then the next person

G-forceJunkie
12-19-2012, 10:41 PM
If a person doesnt pick it up, the dros expires since it was never completed.

Rusty Scabbard
12-19-2012, 10:53 PM
It's never been up to the owner to prove lawful possession, it's always been up to a LEA to prove they don't own it.
.. tell that to this guy, who's thread stated "...On 12/16/2012 Hawthorne PD came to my house for an "animal abuse" call and they jumped my LOCKED gates and searched my property and took my 7.62 rifle for "safe keeping" because i could not show proof i own it. I showed them the turners DROS forms and they said it wasnt enough!..." Perhaps there is more to the story, but if true as claimed, how could this be justified ?
Other threads have reported similar nonsense along the same lines that people have had to go through in order to get a firearm returned after theft, seizure or other case where LE has taken possession.
Is the 'Proof of Ownership' standard defined anywhere ?
It appears that some LEO agencies simply create roadblocks to prevent people from getting firearms back. Are there any penalties if the LEA violated civil law ? What is the recourse for the victim in these cases?

dieselpower
12-19-2012, 11:09 PM
It's never been up to the owner to prove lawful possession, it's always been up to a LEA to prove they don't own it.

Who lied to you and told you that? If LEO take your firearm, they do not have to give it back unless you can prove its yours.

It's been the topic of several threads. Some on-going and past cases.

phresh310
12-19-2012, 11:16 PM
Lol the Hawthorne case is my younger brother.. I can't believe these LEO's around here.. first I get 2 handguns taken away cuz they were "concealed" when I had them unloaded in a locked container.. thanks to Jason Davis he won the case for me on Tuesday. And then my brother gets illegally searched and its all on camera.. he showed them the dros form. We even went to the watch commander and he said the officers took his AK 47 cuz they thought it was an illegal configuration and they weren't sure of his status to own a firearm because he could have lied on the dros form.. BS!! I'M TIRED OF THESE COPS PROFILING AND BEING BULLIES!! So just cuz I have sleeves and tattoos all over me means I'm a gang member? Half my friends are LAPD.. I work armed security so duh I carry a firearm .. it's seriously crossing the line.. our second amendment rights which shall NOT BE INFRINGED are twisted up so bad we can't do anything anymore.. I can't even get my handguns back for another 2 months with the LEGR form.. ugghh its absurd..

Ninety
12-19-2012, 11:17 PM
Umm So pictures are proof?? This is a little shady.. I asked for a copy of my 4473 form and the FFL told me he was not allowed to give me a copy.. Instead he hand wrote a receipt , I would be laughed outta the court trying to use that as proof..

Curtis
12-19-2012, 11:43 PM
CADOJ says you need to DROS a hand gun that is going to loan for longer than 30 days....and DROS dies not establish ownership.

I had LEO run my guns and most if the information in the system listed previous owners but not me, the current owner. The exception were the handguns listed on the LEGR form.

An NFA Trust would be proof of ownership.

bigcalidave
12-19-2012, 11:49 PM
How would you establish ownership on something you made? We have a little part of the bill of rights that mentions unreasonable search and SEIZURE. They can't just take your stuff and say you have to prove you own it. I don't have DROS forms. I don't think I've even received copies for most guns I've purchased, not to mention the ones I make. I may have a few receipts in my files, but some of these are getting on 15 years old! Paper receipts don't last forever.

The police are harassing this member and his brother, plain and simple. Unfortunately it becomes your problem to get a lawyer to fight back, or get a safe and keep that thing locked.

SanPedroShooter
12-20-2012, 12:10 AM
Lol the Hawthorne case is my younger brother.. I can't believe these LEO's around here.. first I get 2 handguns taken away cuz they were "concealed" when I had them unloaded in a locked container.. thanks to Jason Davis he won the case for me on Tuesday. And then my brother gets illegally searched and its all on camera.. he showed them the dros form. We even went to the watch commander and he said the officers took his AK 47 cuz they thought it was an illegal configuration and they weren't sure of his status to own a firearm because he could have lied on the dros form.. BS!! I'M TIRED OF THESE COPS PROFILING AND BEING BULLIES!! So just cuz I have sleeves and tattoos all over me means I'm a gang member? Half my friends are LAPD.. I work armed security so duh I carry a firearm .. it's seriously crossing the line.. our second amendment rights which shall NOT BE INFRINGED are twisted up so bad we can't do anything anymore.. I can't even get my handguns back for another 2 months with the LEGR form.. ugghh its absurd..

You better keep Jason Davis on speed dial. The police seem to be up your *** over guns these days.

Watch your back.

winnre
12-20-2012, 9:20 AM
An NFA Trust would be proof of ownership.

But ironically you would not own it, the Trust would.

Untamed1972
12-20-2012, 9:23 AM
Doesn't prove you actually took delivery...

And correct me if I'm wrong but a longgun DROS does not state make/model/serial number. Only "longgun". So it does not show proof of purchasing any specific gun if it was a long gun.

The "proof of purchase" thing is total BS. I dont have an proof of purchase or ownership for 99% of the things I own. Doesn't mean LEO can just come and take anything they want till I can PROVE it's mine.

Untamed1972
12-20-2012, 9:24 AM
But ironically you would not own it, the Trust would.

But the trust would list you as a legal user of items in the trust, giving you legal right to posess it.

morfeeis
12-20-2012, 10:19 AM
.. tell that to this guy, who's thread stated "...On 12/16/2012 Hawthorne PD came to my house for an "animal abuse" call and they jumped my LOCKED gates and searched my property and took my 7.62 rifle for "safe keeping" because i could not show proof i own it. I showed them the turners DROS forms and they said it wasnt enough!..." Perhaps there is more to the story, but if true as claimed, how could this be justified ?
Other threads have reported similar nonsense along the same lines that people have had to go through in order to get a firearm returned after theft, seizure or other case where LE has taken possession.
Is the 'Proof of Ownership' standard defined anywhere ?
It appears that some LEO agencies simply create roadblocks to prevent people from getting firearms back. Are there any penalties if the LEA violated civil law ? What is the recourse for the victim in these cases?

Simple: Police state, freedoms have been stolen and unless we fight back they will continue to screw us over.

morfeeis
12-20-2012, 10:21 AM
Who lied to you and told you that? If LEO take your firearm, they do not have to give it back unless you can prove its yours.

It's been the topic of several threads. Some on-going and past cases.
That doesn't make what they are doing legal or right or lawful.

squee116
12-20-2012, 10:25 AM
When I first started purchasing guns, I didn't much think about the need to keep proof of ownership. Is there anything I can do to establish it now?

randian
12-20-2012, 10:51 AM
Doesn't mean LEO can just come and take anything they want till I can PROVE it's mine.
Just like they can't take anything you own until you prove it wasn't purchased with the proceeds of illegal drug sales?

bohoki
12-20-2012, 10:57 AM
If a person doesnt pick it up, the dros expires since it was never completed.

i dont think you know how the ca dros system works

five.five-six
12-20-2012, 11:02 AM
They were just BSing to get your gun, when you got to property to retrieve your gun, the property officers accept the fact that it was taken from you as proof that it is yours. The officers did give your a receipt? Right?

jenericsig
12-20-2012, 11:37 AM
When I first started purchasing guns, I didn't much think about the need to keep proof of ownership. Is there anything I can do to establish it now?


You can complete a form from the Cal DOJ to request all handguns you have registered in your name. You have to notarized the form and return it with an ID. I don't think they keep/have records of long arms.

CSACANNONEER
12-20-2012, 11:46 AM
How would you establish ownership on something you made? We have a little part of the bill of rights that mentions unreasonable search and SEIZURE. They can't just take your stuff and say you have to prove you own it. I don't have DROS forms. I don't think I've even received copies for most guns I've purchased, not to mention the ones I make. I may have a few receipts in my files, but some of these are getting on 15 years old! Paper receipts don't last forever.

The police are harassing this member and his brother, plain and simple. Unfortunately it becomes your problem to get a lawyer to fight back, or get a safe and keep that thing locked.

To prove ownership of a homebuild, I would think a letter from the manufacturer should be enough. Let them try to argue it's not.

Munk
12-20-2012, 11:57 AM
To prove ownership of a homebuild, I would think a letter from the manufacturer should be enough. Let them try to argue it's not.

Hah, fantastic.

Another take: The manufacturer has no sales record of the firearm ever leaving their inventory. It still belongs to the manufacturer.

CSACANNONEER
12-20-2012, 2:10 PM
Hah, fantastic.

Another take: The manufacturer has no sales record of the firearm ever leaving their inventory. It still belongs to the manufacturer.


LOL. That's exactly what I said to my partner over lunch.

bwiese
12-20-2012, 2:24 PM
It's never been up to the owner to prove lawful possession, it's always been up to a LEA to prove they don't own it.

Yes, but for other noncriminal matters it could be very useful to PROVE YOU OWN A GUN without having to have the gun present...

For example, 2nd to Nth waiting period elimination ;-)

Californio
12-20-2012, 3:57 PM
I have a Remington .22 bought by my Father from an FFL and given to me as a kid, pre GCA 1968, it has no serial number, which was legal then, except that I have possessed it for 50 years, how would I prove ownership?

blakdawg
12-20-2012, 7:59 PM
But ironically you would not own it, the Trust would.

A trust does not exist as a legal entity distinct from the trustee. The trust is not the owner, the trustee is the owner.

blakdawg
12-20-2012, 8:02 PM
But the trust would list you as a legal user of items in the trust, giving you legal right to posess it.

That's a start, but if someone's skeptical, there's no good way to know whether or not the trust was actually funded, the guns were later sold, or the trust was modified or revoked.

A trust document by itself is a beginning, but it's certainly not conclusive proof.

randian
12-20-2012, 8:20 PM
A trust document by itself is a beginning, but it's certainly not conclusive proof.
Then nothing is conclusive proof. A receipt? That could be a forgery or something you got from a friend. Does the receipt have the serial number on it? How do we know that said receipt is for this particular instance of that make and model of weapon? Do you still have the credit card showing on this receipt, to prove the card was yours?

The endless rathole of "need more documentation" (until you quit in frustration) is where this is headed.

REH
12-20-2012, 8:39 PM
well there is no information on a rifle dros

i am curious about pistols if the person never picks up the gun does it stay registered to them and then the next person

The dealer must cancel the DROS if not picked up.

A long shot would be the dealers A&D books, IF they would allow you a copy.

Munk
12-20-2012, 9:32 PM
would the cops' confiscation receipt suffice?

Absent a report that the firearm is stolen, you can reasonably presume that the person who they took it from was in legal possession or ownership of it.

I think that in a world where many more people will be home-making a lower (the panic buys have cause a 500% markup and beyond), it's reasonable for people to have unregistered, unpurchased, unserialized firearms. How then can these people establish ownership if the cops decide to seize their property?

AKEVERYDAY310
02-16-2013, 3:55 AM
.. tell that to this guy, who's thread stated "...On 12/16/2012 Hawthorne PD came to my house for an "animal abuse" call and they jumped my LOCKED gates and searched my property and took my 7.62 rifle for "safe keeping" because i could not show proof i own it. I showed them the turners DROS forms and they said it wasnt enough!..." Perhaps there is more to the story, but if true as claimed, how could this be justified ?
Other threads have reported similar nonsense along the same lines that people have had to go through in order to get a firearm returned after theft, seizure or other case where LE has taken possession.
Is the 'Proof of Ownership' standard defined anywhere ?
It appears that some LEO agencies simply create roadblocks to prevent people from getting firearms back. Are there any penalties if the LEA violated civil law ? What is the recourse for the victim in these cases?
ohh boy, you should have seen them playing with my wasr 10/63 like little kids playing with daddys firearm. Poor training of the officer? or tell me the reason he decided to flip my rear sight UPSIDE DOWN and aim at my fence? It can be called unsafe practice, or just a dumbass LEO whos never seen an ak before. Managed to rendure my rifle completely useless if you ask me.

They called it an illegal assault rifle, an sks, but never seen a real one to know the difference. Damn Hawthorne pd needs to stop playing black ops or something.

edgerly779
02-16-2013, 5:22 AM
I keep the receipt for dros transaction and that has make/model and serial number on it. I always have the ffl put it on there. Also if gunbroker firearm I get a receipt from sale site and from seller and send copy to my ffl for transfer info. Doesn't take much effort but a lot of people oblivious or lazy.

jamesob
02-16-2013, 7:42 AM
I still have the DROS for the gun I bought....then sold later on....

A dros does not have serial numbers for the weapon or weapons you purchased from what I remember.

BZB
02-16-2013, 8:42 AM
That's why I keep everything, cause you never know, even the ones that I've sold

* DROS (even though for long guns, it doesn't proof ownership)
* Receipt from selling dealer with s/n (I always insists that they write the s/n on it)
* Receipts from FFL transfer, typically will have the s/n
* Credit card receipts from dealer
* I always make copies of receipts, since some of them will fade over time, and I'll keep both original and copies

I think that's about the best that one can do anyway, better than just having the DROS by itself.

Moonshine
02-16-2013, 10:00 AM
Copy of the DROS only proves initial purchase. The gun in your safe proves ownership muahahaha :)!

JDay
02-16-2013, 10:04 AM
Umm So pictures are proof?? This is a little shady.. I asked for a copy of my 4473 form and the FFL told me he was not allowed to give me a copy.. Instead he hand wrote a receipt , I would be laughed outta the court trying to use that as proof..

You need to get a new FFL, one who doesn't have his head up his arse.

JDay
02-16-2013, 10:14 AM
And correct me if I'm wrong but a longgun DROS does not state make/model/serial number. Only "longgun". So it does not show proof of purchasing any specific gun if it was a long gun.

Correct.

http://oi50.tinypic.com/j9q53c.jpg

Lone_Gunman
02-16-2013, 10:26 AM
I have guns that I've had for a long time, that I no longer have the receipts for, also people have C&R guns that there is no record of sale for. One thing that you might be able to do is type up a list of you firearms and serial numbers and have it notorized. That might carry some weight. Also whatever documentation your homeowners insurance may require might be helpful.

This thread has inspired me to do something that I've needed to do for a while. Today I'm taking pictures of all of my firearms and serial numbers and putting them on a couple of encrypted USB thumb drives. This should be helpful in any insurance and or proof of ownership situation.

4DSJW
02-16-2013, 5:37 PM
This thread has inspired me to do something that I've needed to do for a while. Today I'm taking pictures of all of my firearms and serial numbers and putting them on a couple of encrypted USB thumb drives. This should be helpful in any insurance and or proof of ownership situation.

Lone_Gunman, I am in the process of updating my records and asked our IT guy at work what he thought about CD vs. thumb drives. His comment was that he would never store vital information on a thumb drive and currently always uses CD's for storage and archiving. He said that CD's have a lifespan of at least 30 years and thumb drives are a relative unknown at this time regarding long-term use.

Lone_Gunman
02-16-2013, 7:48 PM
Lone_Gunman, I am in the process of updating my records and asked our IT guy at work what he thought about CD vs. thumb drives. His comment was that he would never store vital information on a thumb drive and currently always uses CD's for storage and archiving. He said that CD's have a lifespan of at least 30 years and thumb drives are a relative unknown at this time regarding long-term use.

The problem is encrypting the data though, I'm not sure how you would do that. With the USB drive you can just use a security program to encrypt and password protect it. I'm thinking that a couple USB drives plus CD/DVD copies of photos stored somewhere else might do the trick for me.

dwtt
02-16-2013, 8:08 PM
I am proud to say I don't have copies of the DROS or 4473 forms for all the guns I own, and don't need them. Like morfeeis said, it's up to the police to prove you stole the gun or possess it illegally. The OP should read the post by phresh310, the problem is with the Hawthorne PD, and they took away a gun because they falsely thought the gun was configured illegally, not because they thought it belonged to someone else the his brother had to prove he owned it. It's really sad to see our public education system failed so badly that people don't have any American civics education.
The only time I had to prove I owned a gun was with a Form 4457 from Customs and Border Patrol. Other than that, if I was in possession of a firearm, it's assumed to be mine unless the police can prove it's stolen.

Dave A
02-16-2013, 10:17 PM
I have a receipt for almost every firearm I own and keep them in a manilla envelope in the safe to prevent fading over time. Over the last several years I always request a copy of the 4473 form and attach whatever other proof of payment the store provides. Maybe I don't have to, but it just seems like a good idea.

Noobie
02-16-2013, 10:20 PM
Possession is nine tenths of the law.

toy4two
02-17-2013, 12:51 AM
I always fill out a bill of sale in addition to the DROS when I do a PPT you can get a generic firearm bill of sale online. So they have my info, the seller's info, our driver's license numbers. Blah blah blah they even have fingerprints and copies of DL's at my dealer for the backround check. Doesn't get any more proof than that.

Rusty Scabbard
02-17-2013, 9:39 AM
I am proud to say I don't have copies of the DROS or 4473 forms for all the guns I own, and don't need them. Like morfeeis said, it's up to the police to prove you stole the gun or possess it illegally. The OP should read the post by phresh310, the problem is with the Hawthorne PD, and they took away a gun because they falsely thought the gun was configured illegally, not because they thought it belonged to someone else the his brother had to prove he owned it. It's really sad to see our public education system failed so badly that people don't have any American civics education.
The only time I had to prove I owned a gun was with a Form 4457 from Customs and Border Patrol. Other than that, if I was in possession of a firearm, it's assumed to be mine unless the police can prove it's stolen.

not sure where you read the 'illegal configuration' allegation. From the post by presh; "... searched my property and took my 7.62 rifle for "safe keeping" because i could not show proof i own it. I showed them the turners DROS forms and they said it wasnt enough!..."
I agree with you, that the burden of proof absolutely should be with the police or prosecution if they seize your property. But this is not always the case. What is the recourse for the victim, who will have to spend many hours, a fair amount of money, and ultimately may not be successful in getting their property returned ? Are there any negative consequences for the officers and agencies for illegal actions ? Is there documentation (i.e.copy of DROS) that would strengthen the victims case for subsequent court hearings because the LEO's refused to accept it during the initial interaction ?

JDay
02-17-2013, 11:25 AM
not sure where you read the 'illegal configuration' allegation. From the post by presh; "... searched my property and took my 7.62 rifle for "safe keeping" because i could not show proof i own it. I showed them the turners DROS forms and they said it wasnt enough!..."
I agree with you, that the burden of proof absolutely should be with the police or prosecution if they seize your property. But this is not always the case. What is the recourse for the victim, who will have to spend many hours, a fair amount of money, and ultimately may not be successful in getting their property returned ? Are there any negative consequences for the officers and agencies for illegal actions ? Is there documentation (i.e.copy of DROS) that would strengthen the victims case for subsequent court hearings because the LEO's refused to accept it during the initial interaction ?

I wonder if reporting them to the ATF for firearms theft and to the FBI for deprivation of civil rights would do any good.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

Rusty Scabbard
02-17-2013, 12:20 PM
It would be nice, but I doubt it. Tough, being in the political minority, with limited or no recourse due to selective enforcement. It's along the same lines as seeing if there will be a prosecution of the Hamilton County, Ohio poll worker who openly stated she (and her grand-daughter) voted twice in this last election. The bullies rule....

UnlmtdSources
02-17-2013, 1:23 PM
DROS is only good for 30 days so if you do not pick it up, it expires and DROS is required to be run again. Also, there is a space for serial number on the DROS form.

ke6guj
02-17-2013, 1:29 PM
Also, there is a space for serial number on the DROS form.not on any long gun DROS form that I've seen.

bigguns85
02-17-2013, 3:15 PM
http://www.freethenation.net/2012/05/title-42-section-1983-lawsuits/

just sue the cops with this. If they harrassyou use this back. THey will **** bricks cuss they are liable.

not sure where you read the 'illegal configuration' allegation. From the post by presh; "... searched my property and took my 7.62 rifle for "safe keeping" because i could not show proof i own it. I showed them the turners DROS forms and they said it wasnt enough!..."
I agree with you, that the burden of proof absolutely should be with the police or prosecution if they seize your property. But this is not always the case. What is the recourse for the victim, who will have to spend many hours, a fair amount of money, and ultimately may not be successful in getting their property returned ? Are there any negative consequences for the officers and agencies for illegal actions ? Is there documentation (i.e.copy of DROS) that would strengthen the victims case for subsequent court hearings because the LEO's refused to accept it during the initial interaction ?

steve91104
02-17-2013, 3:25 PM
By any chance would this LEA get federal or state funding based on their ability to show they seized x number of "assault rifles" during the year?

Could this have been done to meet a quota of some sort?