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View Full Version : People, please quit talking about a "compromise"


SKSer
12-18-2012, 8:40 PM
First and foremost we are all remorseful for what happened in Connecticut. I myself have a 5 year old in Kindergarten and I cannot imagine what I would be feeling as a parent right now. I will admit it, i even teared up at Obama's speech earlier. None of us thinks what happened is nothing other then horrendous.

Right now as a group we are being punched, kicked, thrown around and drug through the coals right now. But this is not our fault. We need to understand this.

If there was an outright complete gun ban tomorrow morning, it wouldnt do much. There would be an incredibly small percentage of people that would turn in the guns leaving TONS of guns still in circulation. Why do you think there is such a rush to buy guns, so people can turn around and give them back up? If there was a gun ban 5 years ago would it have changed the event that happened? I dont know, would this guy's mom have turned them in? If they weren't available to the guy would he have figured something else out? A gun ban is not the real solution here.

The mental illness thing isn't either. There is no practical way we can stop these guys, or go on a witch hunt to find them before they strike. There are crazy people that we don't even know of out there right now. Welcome to the real world, where crazy people do bad things.

That only leaves one viable option. If there is no way to make guns and all things that can hurt people disappear, and we cant keep the crazies locked up, then all we can do is protect ourselves and our children. That is where the real problem here is. The Government are the ones that dropped the ball big time here. All the way from the local school district up to the federal level. That is really the only thing that could have made a difference here. We should have high security standards across the board for schools, and maybe we already have some sort of minimum security standards, but whatever we are doing is clearly not enough.

The Government knows they dropped the ball on this, but thanks to the media and the politicians themselves, they are putting all the blame on us. Think about this. The Government effed up big time here, the media is blasting it 24/7, writing new articles every 2-3 minutes, which is only an encouragement for a copy cat. The public starts agreeing that the Guns are the problem cause all they can rely on is what the media and politicians tell them. Then the Government bans the guns, which makes the public feel better, and not only is all the heat off of them, but they look like effin hero's because of it, when it is their major screw up to begin with. Then there is us holding the bag.

We do not need to compromise. We should not compromise, and we CAN not compromise. This is not our fault. Of all the guns the second amendment protects, the most important is the AR-15 (sorry AK guys) because it is the closest to our standard military issue. All the parts are compatible and the ammo is the same. If we had to call up a militia for national defense, and you have an AR you are pretty good to go. And I hate to say it, but if we had to fight a tyrannical government, then we are the closest we can hope to get (so far) to a fair fight. That is exactly what the 2nd amendment is about.

NOT ONE INCH!

SlobRay
12-18-2012, 8:52 PM
We do not need to compromise. We should not compromise, and we CAN not compromise.

NOT ONE INCH!

Amen, never surrender, never retreat!

Ray

IVC
12-18-2012, 8:54 PM
NOT ONE INCH!

That's about it. Anything they want to take from us will have to be with heavy cost on their side.

SwissFluCase
12-18-2012, 9:02 PM
Starting with Heller we are undoing 100 plus years of compromise.


Compromise is what gave us the 1994 ban. Don't do it. There is plenty that can be done that doesn't deny us or anyone else their rights.

NO COMPROMISE!

Regards,


SwissFluCase

SideWinder11
12-18-2012, 9:06 PM
I agree and the NRA better get on board no compromise

taladeganite
12-18-2012, 9:11 PM
No Compromise.

SMR510
12-18-2012, 9:12 PM
I am with you on this, why give up rights that we are guaranteed? Seems dumb to me!

The best defense for us is to try to undo the stigma the media places upon gun owners, there are very few of us that are criminals and I am not one of them...Stop treating me like one!

POLICESTATE
12-18-2012, 9:12 PM
No compromise, we've done too much already. We need to stop the encroachment and then turn back the clock a bit.

timdotm
12-18-2012, 9:22 PM
I agree with the OP. Protect the children, protect your family, protect yourself; the Government and the lack of protection is the problem, not the law abiding gun owners. Why are schools open to anyone who can walk in? Why do we multiple layers of security at airports and federal buildings yet none at schools, malls or neighborhood soccer fields? Stand up for your rights. Do not compromise. Get angry and demand answers; don't let the ignorant dominate the discussion. Law abiding gun owners save lives, not the other way around. Spread the word!

todd2968
12-18-2012, 9:27 PM
It will never clear the No worries

"house" insert

stix213
12-18-2012, 9:28 PM
There is no compromise, whatever we give they will take, and will take back whatever they gave in return as soon as we let our guard down.

Lone_Gunman
12-18-2012, 9:34 PM
Compromise, in this case, is deadly.

A turtle was happily swimming along a river when a scorpion hailed it from the shore.
A scorpion, being a very poor swimmer, asked a turtle to carry him on his back across a river. "Are you mad?" exclaimed the turtle. "You'll sting me while I'm swimming and I'll drown."
"My dear turtle," laughed the scorpion, "if I were to sting you, you would drown and I would go down with you, and drown as well. Now where is the logic in that?"
The turtle thought this over, and saw the logic of the scorpion's statement. "You're right!" cried the turtle. "Hop on!" The scorpion climbed aboard and halfway across the river the scorpion gave the turtle a mighty sting. As they both sank to the bottom, the turtle resignedly said:
"Do you mind if I ask you something? You said there'd be no logic in your stinging me. Why did you do it?"
"It has nothing to do with logic," the drowning scorpion sadly replied. "It's just my character."

woodsman
12-18-2012, 9:35 PM
Well said!

I tire of having my freedom restricted because of anothers criminal activity.

Tarn_Helm
12-18-2012, 9:37 PM
First and foremost we are all remorseful for what happened in Connecticut. I myself have a 5 year old in Kindergarten and I cannot imagine what I would be feeling as a parent right now. I will admit it, i even teared up at Obama's speech earlier. None of us thinks what happened is nothing other then horrendous.

. . . NOT ONE INCH!

This ^.

:mad:

"Compromise" gave us "Gun Free Zones."

How's that working out?

1 2 many
12-18-2012, 10:45 PM
I agree with the OP. Protect the children, protect your family, protect yourself; the Government and the lack of protection is the problem, not the law abiding gun owners. Why are schools open to anyone who can walk in? Why do we multiple layers of security at airports and federal buildings yet none at schools, malls or neighborhood soccer fields? Stand up for your rights. Do not compromise. Get angry and demand answers; don't let the ignorant dominate the discussion. Law abiding gun owners save lives, not the other way around. Spread the word!

Agree.. I am not going to wait for the goverment to protect me.. When I have done good for myself .. Were gonna have to take a stand united.. Wolverines!!!!!!!

Spartanmk1
12-18-2012, 10:53 PM
In the glorious words of Comrade Stalin, "NOT ONE STEP BACK."

For every step, we must make them pay a mile. NOT ONE STEP BACK

wjc
12-18-2012, 11:46 PM
No compromise....fight!

tenpercentfirearms
12-18-2012, 11:48 PM
Who in the hell said compromise? My firearms didn't cause Newtown and none of yours did either.

Eldraque
12-18-2012, 11:52 PM
I am a Free Man. Dont Tread On Me.

TheWhopper
12-18-2012, 11:55 PM
Amen. Let's not forget all people that gave their lives to create and preserve the Constitution. To compromise is to surrender what people died fighting for.....

stingray4540
12-19-2012, 12:09 AM
Compromise kills children. Think of the children!

That's no sarcasm.

gobler
12-19-2012, 12:12 AM
I think I will make a shirt to wear.. it will read

NOT ONE INCH!!!

:D

wjc
12-19-2012, 12:19 AM
I think I will make a shirt to wear.. it will read

NOT ONE INCH!!!

:D

Make that two. 2XL, please!

SKSer
12-19-2012, 6:12 AM
Who in the hell said compromise? My firearms didn't cause Newtown and none of yours did either.

It seems every few hours or so a new thread pops up with something like "what if we trade hi-cap mags for X?" or "what if we give up assault weapon but they have to allow us Y"

billmaykafer
12-19-2012, 6:20 AM
never compromise on a civil right.

Swiss
12-19-2012, 6:21 AM
IMO we can certainly agree to background checks as a bargaining chip. My understanding is that most gunowners support this and it's key to keeping firearms out of the hands of prohibited persons.

GutPunch
12-19-2012, 6:31 AM
Not one more inch!

Casey
12-19-2012, 6:32 AM
I can't tell you how many gun owners have already thrown in the towel but it is a good percentage. No new bans can pass without the support of firearms owners and advocates. We have done nothing wrong, we do not need to apologize, we do not need to "finally have this discussion".
We have been having this stupid discussion for forty years...and they lost.
Stick to your guns and stop playing into the Brady agenda.

ACfixer
12-19-2012, 6:39 AM
I think I will make a shirt to wear.. it will read

NOT ONE INCH!!!

:D

Make that two. 2XL, please!

never compromise on a civil right.

Not one more inch!

Add my name to this list. From my cold dead hands...

Guntech
12-19-2012, 6:40 AM
• “And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the right of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …or to prevent the people from petitioning , in a peaceable and orderly manner; or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures of their persons, papers or possessions.” (Debates of the Massachusetts Convention of 1788, p86


Not one inch. Never retreat, never surrender.


• “Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American…(T)he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.” (Freeman’s Journal, 20 Feb 1778)

TacticalPlinker
12-19-2012, 6:46 AM
Yes, I'm quoting 300, but I think it conveys my sentiments perfectly!


Persians;
Lay down your weapons!


Spartans;
Come and get them!

...Hold!

...Give them nothing,

...but take from them everything!

Sutcliffe
12-19-2012, 6:47 AM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.

TacticalPlinker
12-19-2012, 6:52 AM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.


That sounds like treason, or at the very least ignorance!

Whatever you call it, that opinion is the opposite of liberty (aka tyranny) and is simply unacceptable.

roll2li
12-19-2012, 6:53 AM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.

What they want is the disestablishment of the 2A. An AWB is the first step. The staff planners for CA Sen. Yee and Sen. Feinstein have made that clear on social media repeatedly that they want everything banned because guns have no place in civil society.

If you're OK with that go ahead and give up your guns now and save yourself the headache from piecemealing them out.

therealnickb
12-19-2012, 6:55 AM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.

Bobby Knight fan eh?

sjm9877
12-19-2012, 7:07 AM
No need to compromise, they will take it from us. It has started, the sheeple won't stop it. The guard dogs have lost most of their teeth. We will not win in the media and the PC arena.

ACfixer
12-19-2012, 7:12 AM
No need to compromise, they will take it from us. It has started, the sheeple won't stop it. The guard dogs have lost most of their teeth. We will not win in the media and the PC arena.

That's the spirit! Roll over and show your belly.

Casey
12-19-2012, 7:13 AM
No need to compromise, they will take it from us. It has started, the sheeple won't stop it. The guard dogs have lost most of their teeth. We will not win in the media and the PC arena.

Perfect example of throwing in the towel.

myk
12-19-2012, 7:16 AM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.

Maybe I'm taking you out of context, but no. The 2A, unlike driving licenses for example, is a RIGHT, not an establishment based privelage. I'm sure looney 'libs and probably everyone else in America would explode if someone started moving against their right to free speech, and the reaction should be no different from us when others attack our right to bear arms. Just because attacking the 2A might make some feel better about gun violence, doesn't mean that it's the answer, and it certainly isn't correct or legal...

hornswaggled
12-19-2012, 7:18 AM
Damn straight! Our side has the dedication and actually something to lose. The media and Facebook morons can bleat all they want. They don't have the stamina to see this one through if we stand firm.

Corky43
12-19-2012, 7:20 AM
Agreed No compromise!!

I keep hearing about people moving out of Ca. due to the gun laws, FFL's from other states not selling to Ca. due to the restrictions. NRA compromising on issues in order to appease their representatives etc.

They think they are doing right, when in fact they are playing into the hands of the Gun Grabbers.

Time to no only hold our ground and not compromise, but keep pushing to get more gun rights back!

Who do you support to get this done? I'll give you one guess. Who has done more to help Ca. in this fight in recent times?

You got it. Calguns!

Let them represent us! Forget CRPA and NRA lets keep giving to Calguns foundation and get build up a strong lobby to protect our interest.

TATER313
12-19-2012, 7:26 AM
Amen, Our rights already have been infringed on, no compromise.

Swiss
12-19-2012, 7:39 AM
Why is the only thing I read here about "no compromise"? 20 dead kids say we should at least have a discussion and claiming there's nothing we can do is shameful IMO.

therealnickb
12-19-2012, 7:43 AM
Why is the only thing I read here about "no compromise"? 20 dead kids say we should at least have a discussion and claiming there's nothing we can do is shameful IMO.

You are correct of course. We should expand the people's ability to protect themselves. Eliminating gun free zones would be a great beginning.

sjm9877
12-19-2012, 7:51 AM
I'm not rolling over. Tell me something. How many people really think we will not lose something over this? Unfortunately the shooting last week gave them everything they need for the AW ban. Legal firearms that were used to kill children.

Once again one persons actions will affect millions of law abiding Americans. In my opinion someone should have been there ready to protect those kids. Unfortunately my opinion does not count. Our country is changing, not in a good way. Land of the free & home of the brave. Is turning into land of Facebook status & home of legal Pot.

Sad times.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-19-2012, 8:34 AM
There is no compromise from the gun grabbers, is there? I've personally been to the "town hall" meetings on gun violence where they wouldn't let us talk, didn't want to hear our opinion, and refused to listen to reason.

They are not going to stop until everything is banned! It's not going to happen now, most of us will probably not see it in our lifetime but the day will come when they are going to take everything away from us.

Glock22Fan
12-19-2012, 8:57 AM
Totally agree. Not one inch. No compromise. No further infringements

The other side's definition of compromise is "Give up something now, and we'll come back and take the rest later." They offer nothing in return, just "Surrender completely. In stages if that makes it more bearable for you."

eric2063
12-19-2012, 9:07 AM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.


Hey guys I just wanted to point out Sutcliffe's quote is a reference to what Neville Chamberlain, the British Prime Minister said after he brokered a compromise with Nazi Germany in September 1938 over an area on the Czechoslovakian border;

"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

A year later World War II was ramping up and the compromise just bought Germany more time to consolidate it's power base, increase it's offensive weapons stores and suppress any and all forms of interal opposition to Hitler's government.

I think Sutcliffe's point is compromise doesn't always lead to the positive, warm & fuzzy, utopian paradise of imagination. Reality usually hammers the ones who don't/won't/can't see about the head & ears unfortunately

mo-star
12-19-2012, 9:16 AM
The Government knows they dropped the ball on this, but thanks to the media and the politicians themselves, they are putting all the blame on us. Think about this. The Government effed up big time here, the media is blasting it 24/7, writing new articles every 2-3 minutes, which is only an encouragement for a copy cat. The public starts agreeing that the Guns are the problem cause all they can rely on is what the media and politicians tell them. Then the Government bans the guns, which makes the public feel better, and not only is all the heat off of them, but they look like effin hero's because of it, when it is their major screw up to begin with. Then there is us holding the bag.

^^^this

Bling Bling 2.0
12-19-2012, 9:32 AM
Very well put! Long-time Cal-guns member but it's been a few years since I've been on. I can't believe how fast this is all happening... the frenzy sweeping the nation is making me so sick...

Marooned
12-19-2012, 9:39 AM
I've proposed a compromise that has been received pretty well from people on both sides of the issue. Clean mental bill of health + a firearms safety class gets you...

-The ability to purchase any type of firearm
-Any magazine capacity
-Silencers and supressors
-Open carry
-Concealed carry

holasrmateo
12-19-2012, 10:02 AM
Giving up something for nothing isn't a compromise. Not helped btw by the NRA and their trash PR campaign. I almost joined and gave money but then I remembered:

1) They have forsaken California. Chalk it up to expensive market, hostile climate and limited resources, the fact is that the NRA is more interested in the status quo. It mirrors state Republicans when they opted to conspire with Democrats and freeze the political landscape for a decade. Demographics change and its any wonder that Republicans are a mere 30% of the population in the state. Democrats (40%) weren't doing anything right, far from it, and the apathetic who do vote are now independent (20%). Across the country, the NRA has held their ground in traditional gun areas but has lost in urban, suburban and young people.

2) They have no soft power. I should be seeing nothing but commercials by safety moms telling me how they own a gun to protect their family, God forbid, whatever. I'm a mom, I'm a teacher, I'm a nurse, I'm a firefighter, I'm a police officer, I own a gun, I own a gun, I own a gun. Household ownership of guns has plummeted precisely because the NRA is only maintaing among young people. They grow up and they never buy a gun.

3) They're late and lackluster response to any shooting. For four days gun control advocates took advantage of tragedy and controlled the message. It took four days to exclaim what a tragedy is the loss of 26 women and children and that they don't want something like that to happen in the future? And if they needed empty policy (which most gun control is) they could have proposed national waiting periods, background checks, safety classes, FLL transfers and they still would have been less restrictive than California.

a1c
12-19-2012, 10:16 AM
I've proposed a compromise that has been received pretty well from people on both sides of the issue. Clean mental bill of health + a firearms safety class gets you...

-The ability to purchase any type of firearm
-Any magazine capacity
-Silencers and supressors
-Open carry
-Concealed carry

What's a "clean mental bill of health"? Is it just not being a 5150 person?

Or are you suggesting mental evaluation sanctioned by the state?

In other words, are people considered mentally fit by default, and only unfit if they fall under a 5150 adjudication? Or would your system impose a mental evaluation as a condition to owning a gun?

I have two potential problems with the latter:

1. Practically, I don't see how it's possible. I don't think there are psychiatrists out there who would accept the liability risks if they found someone stable, and then that person goes on a rampage or kills their wife. Even if they were government employees and shielded by any civil lawsuit, this system would mean added government costs (and probably high ones), and I don't see how that would be financed. Shrinks, even government-employed, don't come cheap.

2. What would that bill of health entail? What would be the threshold? What if someone is taking antidepressants? What if they're slightly OCD? What if they sometimes have anger issues? Where is the line? Remember, the American Psychiatry Association considered homosexuality a mental disorder until the early 70s...

Marooned
12-19-2012, 10:50 AM
What's a "clean mental bill of health"? Is it just not being a 5150 person?

Or are you suggesting mental evaluation sanctioned by the state?

In other words, are people considered mentally fit by default, and only unfit if they fall under a 5150 adjudication? Or would your system impose a mental evaluation as a condition to owning a gun?

I have two potential problems with the latter:

1. Practically, I don't see how it's possible. I don't think there are psychiatrists out there who would accept the liability risks if they found someone stable, and then that person goes on a rampage or kills their wife. Even if they were government employees and shielded by any civil lawsuit, this system would mean added government costs (and probably high ones), and I don't see how that would be financed. Shrinks, even government-employed, don't come cheap.

2. What would that bill of health entail? What would be the threshold? What if someone is taking antidepressants? What if they're slightly OCD? What if they sometimes have anger issues? Where is the line? Remember, the American Psychiatry Association considered homosexuality a mental disorder until the early 70s...

I'm not a mental health specialist so I don't think i'm qualified to say whether someone is mentally ill or not. I know that there are assessments like the MMPI which some federal agencies use to screen their recruits. Perhaps something like that could work?

tcrpe
12-19-2012, 10:59 AM
Let me throw some ideas out there.

1. Make all the school staff "mandated reporters" for anti-social behavior of the type invariably exhibited by these loons in the years before their outbursts.

2. No-buy list all those that have received SSI benefits for mental issues.

Want off the list? Get signed off by a doctor, maybe using the MMPI.

here's a candidate:

A Belle Chasse High School senior told police he was joking when he talked about shooting up the school on Friday and tying up a teacher. But the move landed him in jail, nonetheless. Leonard F. Jourdan III was arrested Monday by Plaquemines Parish deputies on Terrorizing charges after the 18-year-old high school senior's plans were overheard by a teacher and students during school hours, according to a news release from the Plaquemines Parish Sheriff's Office.

http://noladefender.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_image/jourdan.JPG

Jourdan allegedly threatened to shoot up the school on Fri., Dec. 21, because, in accordance with the Mayan calendar, he believes the world is coming to an end on that day. He then allegedly said he was going to tie up a teacher and slit her wrists because it seems like she doesn't like him.

http://noladefender.com/content/belle-chas45se-high-scho78ol-student-arrested-threatening-shoot-school

Sutcliffe
12-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Hey guys I just wanted to point out Sutcliffe's quote is a reference to what Neville Chamberlain, the British Prime Minister said after he brokered a compromise with Nazi Germany in September 1938 over an area on the Czechoslovakian border;

"My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep."

A year later World War II was ramping up and the compromise just bought Germany more time to consolidate it's power base, increase it's offensive weapons stores and suppress any and all forms of interal opposition to Hitler's government.

I think Sutcliffe's point is compromise doesn't always lead to the positive, warm & fuzzy, utopian paradise of imagination. Reality usually hammers the ones who don't/won't/can't see about the head & ears unfortunately


Yes, gentlemen it was sarcasm and I was hoping the reference would have been caught sooner than this. Probably my fault for not putting quotes around "peace in our time". I didn't want to make it too easy for you.
For the record: appeasement buys time. How much remains to be seen.

School shooting will not go away as a result of anything our lawmakers do. When shooters start using 10 rnd mags they will whittle us down to 5 rounders. When we use handguns they will whittle those down too. I can't wait for the Brady Campaign to be screaming "Assault Revolver" from the scene of an, as yet, unplanned school shooting.

Whatever measures they take now won't or have gone far enough when the next wave of school shootings continues. Bank on that.

Moonshine
12-19-2012, 12:00 PM
Compromise doesn't exist for gun grabbers. They would rather have nothing than compromise which is why they're in court so often after bans get signed by the governor

SMR510
12-19-2012, 12:19 PM
I'm not rolling over. Tell me something. How many people really think we will not lose something over this? Unfortunately the shooting last week gave them everything they need for the AW ban. Legal firearms that were used to kill children.

In my eyes those were stolen firearms. He did not purchase them, they were never transferred to him and the first thing he did was shoot the rightful owner of them.

Tell me how they were legally acquired...

SKSer
12-19-2012, 12:27 PM
Why is the only thing I read here about "no compromise"? 20 dead kids say we should at least have a discussion and claiming there's nothing we can do is shameful IMO.

No there is plenty that can be done, and that would really solve the problem. The best thing that can be done right now is for the administration take a hard look at school security across the board. They need to make stringent security standards that must be implemented at all public schools across the board. They need to quit being lazy and thinking that making laws are gonna change anything.

"Lets make schools safer, how do you think we should do it Bill??"
"This idea may sound crazy but how about putting up signs that say GUN FREE ZONE??"
"EXCELLENT IDEA!!!"

I mean are you kidding me?? what did two pot heads sitting on the couch, eating Doritos watching Gilligan's Island come up with that one?

I've proposed a compromise that has been received pretty well from people on both sides of the issue. Clean mental bill of health + a firearms safety class gets you...

-The ability to purchase any type of firearm
-Any magazine capacity
-Silencers and supressors
-Open carry
-Concealed carry


This has been proposed many times, but the only reason this is scary is because it gives all power to the government to determine if you are "Sane Enough" to own a gun. Then how often after that do you have to get rechecked. Who is gonna pay for it?

A buddy of mine was trying to be a CO and he had to take a crazy test. One of the questions was. Have you ever got in an argument with someone? How did you feel after, please describe: he didnt even know what to say, should he lie and say no, should he tell the truth and it could hurt him? It leaves all kinds of potential pitfalls for gun owners.

Excelsior
12-19-2012, 12:44 PM
First and foremost we are all remorseful for what happened in Connecticut. I myself have a 5 year old in Kindergarten and I cannot imagine what I would be feeling as a parent right now. I will admit it, i even teared up at Obama's speech earlier. None of us thinks what happened is nothing other then horrendous.

Right now as a group we are being punched, kicked, thrown around and drug through the coals right now. But this is not our fault. We need to understand this.

If there was an outright complete gun ban tomorrow morning, it wouldnt do much. There would be an incredibly small percentage of people that would turn in the guns leaving TONS of guns still in circulation. Why do you think there is such a rush to buy guns, so people can turn around and give them back up? If there was a gun ban 5 years ago would it have changed the event that happened? I dont know, would this guy's mom have turned them in? If they weren't available to the guy would he have figured something else out? A gun ban is not the real solution here.

The mental illness thing isn't either. There is no practical way we can stop these guys, or go on a witch hunt to find them before they strike. There are crazy people that we don't even know of out there right now. Welcome to the real world, where crazy people do bad things.

That only leaves one viable option. If there is no way to make guns and all things that can hurt people disappear, and we cant keep the crazies locked up, then all we can do is protect ourselves and our children. That is where the real problem here is. The Government are the ones that dropped the ball big time here. All the way from the local school district up to the federal level. That is really the only thing that could have made a difference here. We should have high security standards across the board for schools, and maybe we already have some sort of minimum security standards, but whatever we are doing is clearly not enough.

The Government knows they dropped the ball on this, but thanks to the media and the politicians themselves, they are putting all the blame on us. Think about this. The Government effed up big time here, the media is blasting it 24/7, writing new articles every 2-3 minutes, which is only an encouragement for a copy cat. The public starts agreeing that the Guns are the problem cause all they can rely on is what the media and politicians tell them. Then the Government bans the guns, which makes the public feel better, and not only is all the heat off of them, but they look like effin hero's because of it, when it is their major screw up to begin with. Then there is us holding the bag.

We do not need to compromise. We should not compromise, and we CAN not compromise. This is not our fault. Of all the guns the second amendment protects, the most important is the AR-15 (sorry AK guys) because it is the closest to our standard military issue. All the parts are compatible and the ammo is the same. If we had to call up a militia for national defense, and you have an AR you are pretty good to go. And I hate to say it, but if we had to fight a tyrannical government, then we are the closest we can hope to get (so far) to a fair fight. That is exactly what the 2nd amendment is about.

NOT ONE INCH!

Naw.

What you suggest is simply not true.

The ongoing "solution" to this problem consists of many things including a far bigger focus on mental health in the USA and on allowing sane, law-abiding people to carry concealed firearms.

To suggest that "The mental illness thing isn't either" is simply untrue. You offer a premise as if it's a proven fact and it's not.

Focusing on mental health and doing something about it is easily battle #1 in this war -- even ahead of people being allowed to freely CCW although the two are by no means mutually exclusive. Both need attention now. CCW might well be #2 on the list but not addressing mental health is a sure recipe for not solving this hideous problem.

Cyclops
12-19-2012, 12:49 PM
Per the original post, can you expand on or explain how the government screwed up? You stated that a couple of times. I am not looking to argue, but I don't know what was meant to be implied. (else that part of your post is completely lost on me)
Thanks

CEDaytonaRydr
12-19-2012, 1:00 PM
Per the original post, can you expand on or explain how the government screwed up?

1. Failing to provide adequate security for our schools

2. Failing to fund education, instead of stupid "pet-projects", like the war in Libya, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

3. Failing to provide resources to mentally unstable Americans (a lot of whom are service veterans, I might add)

4. Failing to focus on firearms regulations that would work, like better backgroud checks, etc.

Shall I go on, or does this anwer your question? I'm a Libertarian, so I've got a bunch more... :43:

SKSer
12-19-2012, 1:08 PM
Naw.

What you suggest is simply not true.

The ongoing "solution" to this problem consists of many things including a far bigger focus on mental health in the USA and on allowing sane, law-abiding people to carry concealed firearms.

To suggest that "The mental illness thing isn't either" is simply untrue. You offer a premise as if it's a proven fact and it's not.

Focusing on mental health and doing something about it is easily battle #1 in this war -- even ahead of people being allowed to freely CCW although the two are by no means mutually exclusive. Both need attention now. CCW might well be #2 on the list but not addressing mental health is a sure recipe for not solving this hideous problem.

Im not saying that the mental health thing isn't important, what im saying is that there is no real way we go after that alone and prevent this from happening again.

For instance if I laid the entire mental health problem on your shoulders, and I gave you a blank check, and with that you could hire as many people as possible, could you guarantee me that this would never happen again?


Per the original post, can you expand on or explain how the government screwed up? You stated that a couple of times. I am not looking to argue, but I don't know what was meant to be implied. (else that part of your post is completely lost on me)
Thanks
My point is, is that school safety is the responsibility of the government from the lowest levels of the school district on up. This guy got in because the school security was terrible. What if a stray pitbull got in and maimed and killed several children? Who would we be blaming?

take a look at this school: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/12/school-security-one-schools-extraordinary-safety-measures/

epilepticninja
12-19-2012, 1:20 PM
I can't tell you how many gun owners have already thrown in the towel but it is a good percentage.

Not just the gun owners, but what about all the gun retailers and online gun companies that are refusing to sell, or have cleared their shelves? wtf is that all about? Might as well just smack the people that give you business, right in the face by declaring that you don't believe in 2A. I'm still boggled by the companies that are doing this.

Jazeronthelaser
12-19-2012, 1:22 PM
That's the spirit! Roll over and show your belly.

Lol. That was funny.

Excelsior
12-19-2012, 1:23 PM
1. Failing to provide adequate security for our schools

2. Failing to fund education, instead of stupid "pet-projects", like the war in Libya, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

3. Failing to provide resources to mentally unstable Americans (a lot of whom are service veterans, I might add)

4. Failing to focus on firearms regulations that would work, like better backgroud checks, etc.

Shall I go on, or does this anwer your question? I'm a Libertarian, so I've got a bunch more... :43:

I think #3 is certainly valid. I'm not sure that any of the others are, although #3 certainly impacts #1.

There has been a TON spent on education in the USA. Much of the $$$ have been wasted though.

I'm not sure which firearms regulations would work, but I am certainly open to the concept. I see the problem more about not enforcing the laws already on the books.

mblat
12-19-2012, 1:32 PM
Real question isn't should we compromise or not. Question is why Obama wants to?
No, really - bare with me here. For couple days it looked like new legislation coming fast and furious. Now this commission.....
For point of view of advancing gun-control agenda that makes no sense. As time passes public support for new gun-control measures likely to dissipate. Especially considering coming holidays. If you want new laws - the best time to push for it now. I fail to see what Obama gains by creating commission - that time honored way for Washington to delay any meaningful discussion of any issue.
He isn't closet gun-rights supporter. So, really WTF?

IVC
12-19-2012, 1:34 PM
Why is the only thing I read here about "no compromise"? 20 dead kids say we should at least have a discussion and claiming there's nothing we can do is shameful IMO.

Discussion? Absolutely. The other side doesn't want a discussion, though. They want an incremental gun control bill.

The discussion includes open conversation of why 1994-2004 AW ban didn't work as intended, why CT AW ban didn't work as intended, what should one do at the time there is already a crazy armed person in the school and there is no "legal gun" available around. We can also have an open conversation about ALL of the massacres happening in gun free zones, where the complete and absolute prohibition is already in place.

Somehow I believe this is not the discussion anyone really wants.

mosinnagantm9130
12-19-2012, 1:38 PM
If we give them what they want........

We will have peace in our time.

Bobby Knight fan eh?

Neville Chamberlain

CEDaytonaRydr
12-19-2012, 1:43 PM
There has been a TON spent on education in the USA. Much of the $$$ have been wasted though.

It's taken a 3% cut since Obama took office.

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2008USbt_13bs1n#usgs302

...and for that 13% of the fiscal year budget, we don't even make it into the top 10 of the world's nations. Pretty sad... :rolleyes:

Being a Libertarian, I don't necessarily think that stealing income (by way of excessive taxation) from American taxpayers so that everyone can get the same, bad quality education is the answer either. We need to offer tax vouchers for parents who want to send their kids to private school (until we do away the the income tax structure completely), so that the kids that have better academic aptitude can be given an environment to succede in. The way it is now, the smart kids have to sit in the same class as the dumb kids and the teacher has to drag the academic standard down to the level of the dumbest kids, so they can pass the standardized test. Like any other socialized program, our education system is a joke!

Capybara
12-19-2012, 1:43 PM
While I agree with almost everything in this entire thread, including the no compromise especially, in California, if SB47, Ammo permits, yearly gun licensing exams, etc. pass despite our best efforts, we didn't compromise, but the sheeple and the 2/3 Supermajority basically just screw us and there isn't that much we can do about.

Donate, write letters and don't compromise, but to an extent, a lot of this is out of our hands in this state.

safewaysecurity
12-19-2012, 1:53 PM
Everyone needs to stop lying. Both sides need to stop pretending they can control these rare events. You can't control it. Evil will find a way. It sucks but some things are just not fixable. Best we can do is put a system in place that defends against these attacks which we know are going to happen regardless. This means easy access to carry and no restrictions on where we can carry except guaranteed secured areas like prisons.

RugerFan777
12-19-2012, 2:04 PM
We do not need to compromise. We should not compromise, and we CAN not compromise. This is not our fault. Of all the guns the second amendment protects, the most important is the AR-15 (sorry AK guys) because it is the closest to our standard military issue. All the parts are compatible and the ammo is the same. If we had to call up a militia for national defense, and you have an AR you are pretty good to go. And I hate to say it, but if we had to fight a tyrannical government, then we are the closest we can hope to get (so far) to a fair fight. That is exactly what the 2nd amendment is about.

NOT ONE INCH!

I agree with you but in one aspect. Its not a fair fight. The military has hand grenades, motars, night vision, tanks, attack helicopters, heavy artillary, bombers, nuclear weapons etc.

therealnickb
12-19-2012, 2:06 PM
1. Failing to provide adequate security for our schools

2. Failing to fund education, instead of stupid "pet-projects", like the war in Libya, Afghanistan, and Iraq.

3. Failing to provide resources to mentally unstable Americans (a lot of whom are service veterans, I might add)

4. Failing to focus on firearms regulations that would work, like better backgroud checks, etc.

Shall I go on, or does this anwer your question? I'm a Libertarian, so I've got a bunch more... :43:

If we didn't spend a nickel on those wars, would still be about $15T in debt and borrowing over $1T per year.

So what else should the government "provide" with borrowed dollars?

therealnickb
12-19-2012, 2:12 PM
Neville Chamberlain

Got it. I was thinking of the good old "lie there and enjoy it" strategy.

tcrpe
12-19-2012, 2:33 PM
There is very strong evidence that we need better psycho control in this country.

Box 'em up. They don't play well with others.

Corky43
12-20-2012, 6:50 AM
Don't stop just because things don't always go our way. Keep up the fight, Support those that support us. Rights (as well as freedom) is always a struggle. The time to worry is when you stop fighting and become complacent.

While I agree with almost everything in this entire thread, including the no compromise especially, in California, if SB47, Ammo permits, yearly gun licensing exams, etc. pass despite our best efforts, we didn't compromise, but the sheeple and the 2/3 Supermajority basically just screw us and there isn't that much we can do about.

Donate, write letters and don't compromise, but to an extent, a lot of this is out of our hands in this state.

postal
12-20-2012, 7:57 PM
Totally agree. Not one inch. No compromise. No further infringements

The other side's definition of compromise is "Give up something now, and we'll come back and take the rest later." They offer nothing in return, just "Surrender completely. In stages if that makes it more bearable for you."

I was about to add a comment until I read this. Now I only have to type...

+100000000

postal
12-20-2012, 8:00 PM
Discussion? Absolutely. The other side doesn't want a discussion, though. They want an incremental gun control bill.

The discussion includes open conversation of why 1994-2004 AW ban didn't work as intended, why CT AW ban didn't work as intended, what should one do at the time there is already a crazy armed person in the school and there is no "legal gun" available around. We can also have an open conversation about ALL of the massacres happening in gun free zones, where the complete and absolute prohibition is already in place.

Somehow I believe this is not the discussion anyone really wants.

I'd be all ears to hear these discussions....

SilverTauron
12-20-2012, 8:02 PM
Our position as politically active gun owners in America is akin to Israel's situation in the Middle East. If the Jewish State "compromised" with their Arab neighbors, it would result in their nation's destruction. The outcome for our gun rights in America would be no different.

Excelsior
12-20-2012, 9:44 PM
This is some wonderful insight from another forum. Wisdom that too many people are lacking:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

"Membership levels are a HUGE part of the self-determination of how hard a line a rights advocacy group can take. If they (the NRA) walked in to the meeting with 40 million members behind them like AARP (who is anti-gun, by the way) they could write their own ticket and no one would be willing to buck therm. With only 4 million members, they can't take nearly as hard a line.

So, if you, and other non-members aren't happy with what you hear tomorrow, you need to realize that a large part of why they felt they had to compromise was because they didn't have the popular support to take a harder line.

People who want the NRA to take a hard line need to start their own private membership drives to push the membership levels higher. That's the only way the NRA can gain the power it needs to take the "no compromise" stance that many want to see."

Glock22Fan
12-20-2012, 9:56 PM
I'd be all ears to hear these discussions....


All you would hear from the other side would be something like "It's basic common sense . . . guns and children don't mix . . . nobody needs a machine gun to hunt moose . . . Nobody needs cop killer bullets . . . Blood in the streets . . . Gun fights caused by road rage . . . Ten rounds is plenty, you really only need one to defend yourself from a bad guy . . . I've got my fingers stuck in my ears (and my head up my Khyber Pass) . . . yada yada yada."

CEDaytonaRydr
12-20-2012, 10:51 PM
If we didn't spend a nickel on those wars, would still be about $15T in debt and borrowing over $1T per year. Maybe not but it certainly didn't help our situation either.

So what else should the government "provide" with borrowed dollars?First of all, those dollars are "stolen", not "borrowed". Second, if you read my posts above, you'll see that I said that I was a Libertarian and wanted income tax done away with all together. Taxing someone's income is unjust, predatory, and in my mind, downright evil! There are better ways to tax; see "Fair Tax Act".

therealnickb
12-21-2012, 6:43 AM
Maybe not but it certainly didn't help our situation either.

First of all, those dollars are "stolen", not "borrowed". Second, if you read my posts above, you'll see that I said that I was a Libertarian and wanted income tax done away with all together. Taxing someone's income is unjust, predatory, and in my mind, downright evil! There are better ways to tax; see "Fair Tax Act".

Yes I know, libertarian. You mentioned that in a few posts now.

I guess I've never heard a libertarian blame government for failing to "provide" or "fund" so many things. Quite the opposite, they usually claim the government is doing too much.

Regardless of how the money is collected, spending more than they take in is the problem.

TempleKnight
12-21-2012, 8:27 AM
I have always been open to compromise. Let's start with the repeal of CGA68. Then we can talk about allowing NFA34 stuff to be sold in California.

1859sharps
12-21-2012, 10:26 AM
I have always been open to compromise. Let's start with the repeal of CGA68. Then we can talk about allowing NFA34 stuff to be sold in California.

I was just about to say something along these lines.

Compromise is how things get done. Compromise isn't a dirty word.

HOWEVER....it is funny how when the the time come to "compromise" comes around, we are the side expected to do all the compromising.

We have done enough compromising, just look at all the laws on the books "controlling guns".

What we need to do is turn the tables around. "ya, sure...lets compromise. but it's your(pro gun control side of things) turn. look at all these laws we have already compromised on and that aren't working....how about we try it our way for a little while. lets start with repealing...."

I agree we should hold fast and technically not compromise, but we need to do a MUCH better job undermining the myth that gun rights groups "never compromise". there is a HUGH history of compromise that got us what?

Kingofthehill
12-21-2012, 10:43 AM
I think I will make a shirt to wear.. it will read

NOT ONE INCH!!!

:D

Kinda sounds like you are not happy about the size of your... umm.... manlyhood? LOL...

But i agree, im not surrendering ANYTHING and I am not going to "Compromise" .... how come we always ahve to give something up? when have they ever "Compromised" and given us any of our freaking rights back?

NEVER... NEVER

JC982
12-21-2012, 3:41 PM
Compromise always works in the favor of evil. Compromise your morals? Compromise your freedom?
Compromise your rights?
Compromise your marriage?
Compromise your honesty?
No, compromise is a dirty word in the land of Government, and from the mouths of the corrupt. My $0.02

Nessal
12-21-2012, 6:36 PM
I do hope that all those that want a compromise to lose their right to bear arms. They have it coming. I won't be surprised if these are the same people that won't defend our constitution when the time comes because they want to "compromise" with their oppressors.

Bbonez
12-21-2012, 8:57 PM
We can not afford to "compromise" any more. We dont have many rights left, DONT COMPROMISE!!!!!! Keep what little we have!!!

Corky43
01-11-2013, 12:11 PM
Already looks like NRA is compromising. I smell a give and take. NRA will give away Magazine Capacity and registration issues and Biden will back off on AW ban.

I say "NO COMPROMISE" Period!

Excelsior
01-11-2013, 1:47 PM
Already looks like NRA is compromising. I smell a give and take. NRA will give away Magazine Capacity and registration issues and Biden will back off on AW ban.

I say "NO COMPROMISE" Period!

Quit carping already!

The damned pessimism/defeatism on these forums is downright sickening.

Mag capacity and "registration issues" are not the NRA's go "give away."

Biden's not going to get an "AW ban." At least not one with any teeth. That's a non-starter.

Corky43
01-14-2013, 6:38 AM
Quit carping already!

The damned pessimism/defeatism on these forums is downright sickening.

Mag capacity and "registration issues" are not the NRA's go "give away."

Biden's not going to get an "AW ban." At least not one with any teeth. That's a non-starter.

Apparently you didn't take the time to read the full threat. I am in full support of not giving "ANY" ground, but reality is we will loose something. How much we loose is dependent on how vocal we are about our stance on "ALL" gun rights issues.

lhecker51
01-14-2013, 8:14 AM
Apparently you didn't take the time to read the full threat. I am in full support of not giving "ANY" ground, but reality is we will loose something. How much we loose is dependent on how vocal we are about our stance on "ALL" gun rights issues.
I agree. Debt limit negotiations are fertile ground for a gun control compromise. Our rights will be used as a bargaining chip by many that we thought supported the 2nd Amendment.

paul0660
01-14-2013, 8:20 AM
Our position as politically active gun owners in America is akin to Israel's situation in the Middle East. If the Jewish State "compromised" with their Arab neighbors, it would result in their nation's destruction. The outcome for our gun rights in America would be no different.

The result might be a good analogy, but Jews/Israelis/Zionists have much less claim to what we call Israel than anyone in America (not just citizens) has a right to firearms.