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knerona
12-18-2012, 12:38 PM
My buddy sent this too me. I hope I posted this in the right sub forum and not a dupe.

Just not cool.

http://mylifepartdos.wordpress.com/2012/12/17/and-then-this-happened-this-morning/

Arisaka
12-18-2012, 2:00 PM
Wow WTF?! Yet another reason I have put off having children. I would rage over this ****.

not-fishing
12-18-2012, 2:25 PM
Thanks for the link.

One thing I've told all my kids is that school is really more like a prison.

There is no real tolerance, it isn't fair and teachers don't do what they say.

You just have to deal with it or move to a different school. (which we did do in one case)

HapaMan
12-18-2012, 2:42 PM
Another idiot, who has no business being a teacher.

PassTheAmmo
12-18-2012, 2:46 PM
I didn't see it in the comment threads but isn't there also a potential civil rights violation here too? (somewhere between first and second amendment)

REDPATCHUSMC
12-18-2012, 2:52 PM
A sad mis-use of power by a teacher.

FourT6and2
12-18-2012, 3:00 PM
This struck me as odd: "Glorification of guns should not be part of a school culture." - Teacher

My high school had (and still has) a rifle club. It is an officially sanctioned school sport. The school has its own indoor range, in fact. And I'm sure there are plenty of other schools across the country that do as well — the fact that my alma mater competes against other schools in the league in riflery proves that other schools do.

So if this teacher feels guns shouldn't be glorified in schools, maybe he should open his eyes a little and see that it is, and from many schools themselves.


I didn't see it in the comment threads but isn't there also a potential civil rights violation here too? (somewhere between first and second amendment)

Depends on if it's a public or private school. A private school can do what they want. A public school is another story. I presume this story is about a public school, though. In any event, I remember from when I was in middle school (public), that clothing that depicted violence or weapons were not aloud.

knerona
12-18-2012, 3:11 PM
I just noticed that on her blog in the "for those that are new here", she doesn't mention a 15 year old daughter but only her husband, two boys and an adult daughter serving in the Army...

Hope I didn't post something fabricated...

Carsgunsandchics
12-18-2012, 3:13 PM
I just noticed that on her blog in the "for those that are new here", she doesn't mention a 15 year old daughter but only her husband, two boys and an adult daughter serving in the Army...

Hope I didn't post something fabricated...

It's not fabricated. It's my wife, and one of my 3 daughters that's involved.

winnre
12-18-2012, 3:19 PM
Can you cut and paste the info? Page is blocked for me.

knerona
12-18-2012, 3:20 PM
It's not fabricated. It's my wife, and one of my 3 daughters that's involved.

I sincerely apologize, no harm or foul was intended in that last post.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you guys, and to many others out there in the school system work and beyond.

I hope that everything works out and that your daughter gets through it. Teens have enough to deal with, especially now.

Carsgunsandchics
12-18-2012, 3:24 PM
I sincerely apologize, no harm or foul was intended in that last post.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you guys, and to many others out there in the school system work and beyond.

I hope that everything works out and that your daughter gets through it. Teens have enough to deal with, especially now.

I didn't read into it as a foul or any harm. You were in question and wanted to know, plain and simple. You didn't just jump into conclusions and run with it.

Carsgunsandchics
12-18-2012, 3:27 PM
Quoted from what started it.

DEC
17
And then this happened this morning.
Posted on December 17, 2012 by Margaret
And then this happened this morning.
The 15yo called me, in tears. Her history teacher talked about the events on Friday morning, humiliated her in class because she was wearing a Sacramento Black Rifle sweatshirt, told her to remove it, and segregated her from the class when she did not. (It’s cold, she doesn’t have another sweatshirt with her.) Then, as class let out, he stood outside the classroom and continued to humiliate her as she left the classroom. [This sweatshirt has the SBR logo on the front of it. She has been wearing this sweatshirt for about 2wks now. It is not a new thing, just put on today. She will probably wear it again tomorrow.]

I’m waiting for a call back from the assistant principal who is in charge of this teacher. I had one secretary tell me I needed to speak with the teacher first. Umm, no. I’m going up the chain of command.

I called husband to let him know. He is angry. And wants a letter of apology from the school and a verbal apology from the teacher in front of the class. I think that’s reasonable.

If this is how teachers are going to respond in the wake of a violent act against children, is it any wonder that I homeschool my boys? Maybe I should homeschool her, too.

#Angry #NotOk #DontMakeMeHomeschoolHerToo

———- ———- ———-

Edited to add:

I spoke with the assistant principal. She spoke with 15yo in her office and the teacher in passing. I think there’s going to be another meeting with the teacher. She advised that we make contact with the teacher to get some resolution for this, and if it doesn’t happen to our satisfaction, then we contact her again.

I’m now composing an email to the teacher.

———- ———- ———-

Edited to add:

This is the email exchange that happened between me and the staff at the school (assistant principal, principal, counselor – altho only the teacher did the talking). All names have been removed.

~~~~~

From me to teacher:

Teacher -

I am sure you are aware of why I am emailing you.

15yo called me in tears regarding the issue that happened in class today.

As she tells it: she needed help, you came to her, and then started talking about her sweatshirt and the events on Friday, told her to turn it inside out or take it off, she refused, then you told her to finish her schoolwork in the storage room, thus segregating her from the rest of the class, and after class you stood outside the classroom and continued to talk about it.

We (her father, mother, and myself) are justifiably angry and concerned about this. From 15yo’s recounting of the issue in class, we see that:

– You used your personal opinion to single out a child. If it was a general classroom discussion, and everyone was voicing their opinions about something, it would be different. But from what we understand, it was only you.
– You chose to humiliate a student in front of others.
– This looks like bullying behavior. When we, as a society, understand that bullying between students causes negative reactions, and then we, as parents, hear that a teacher has bullied a student, we have to wonder where the students are learning this behavior. I believe it’s learned from a variety of sources, but I fully believe it should never be learned from teacher to student.
– You made 15yo feel as if she was part of the events on Friday. She knows she was not, we know she was not, you know she was not. But whatever you said made her feel this way.
– You sent her out of the classroom because she was wearing a sweatshirt that is not against school policy. This is segregation based on personal opinion. This is humiliation. This is saying she’s not welcome in your classroom and she doesn’t belong.
– As a result of this, she did not feel safe in the classroom. In the wake of such horrific events as those on Friday, this should never happen.

I have spoken to Assistant Principal about this, and she stated the best way to go forward was for us to communicate with you and see if we could come to a solution that works for everyone. There is the chance that your version is different than 15yo’s, and we are open to hearing that. Right now we are expecting a verbal apology in class as that’s where the incident took place.

15yo is talking about being homeschooled because of this event. While I am willing to take that step, I would rather see this resolved in a way that is respectful to her, and for her to continue schooling at High School.

Thank you for your time and consideration on this matter, and I hope to hear from you soon.

~~~~~

From Teacher to me:

When I walked by 15yo while she and fellow students were working together on a final review project I saw that she had a black sweatshirt with a semi-automatic rifle on it. I asked her, which only her neighboring students could hear, if she realized what had happened on Friday. She did not make it clear whether she had or had not, as she usually is reticent about talking out loud in class. When she was unclear I continued to ask if she understood what had happened. I still did not receive a clear answer. I told her that I had spent the weekend hearing about and reading about what had happened and could not look at a sweatshirt that had a weapon on it that was similar to that used on Friday that was used to fire multiple bullets into five-year-olds. I asked her if she could turn it inside out or take it off. She said she couldn’t or wouldn’t. I then asked her to go into the storage room, where students go to make up tests or work quietly if they need to. I was not gentle in my words as I explained what had happened and I know I upset 15yo. I did not see her behavior as defiant but I did not understand it and she could not explain. I was not going to leave her sitting there with a sweatshirt that for my 26 years at High School has been against school policy. If such a change has been made, it has never been made public and if it was the faculty at this school would not support such a policy. If you want to make this a case about her right to wear the shirt I will not change my position.
I do regret that 15yo would have to feel the brunt of this as she seemed to be oblivious of the role she was playing and I am sorry she should have been made the center of some attention today. My wife was an elementary school principal and two of my children work at elementary schools. Glorification of guns should not be part of a school culture. I do not understand how she came to school on this day, with flags at half-mast, with this display. We can discuss all of this further.

~~~~~

My response to Teacher:

To the staff following this email -

After speaking with 15yo’s mother and father, we have come to the conclusion that 15yo will not be returning to High School. We will come in the morning to return 15yo’s books and to get a copy of her transcript.

Teacher -

Just because you do not understand the behavior of a child, does not mean the next course of action should be to remove the child from the classroom.

Assistant Principal confirmed with me and with 15yo that her sweatshirt was not against school policy. Regardless, if you thought it was against school policy, why didn’t you say anything about it prior to today? She has been wearing this sweatshirt to school for at least the last week, if not longer.

We do not understand what you mean by “the role she was playing”. 15yo was a student in your class. That was her role. Nothing more. Wearing a sweatshirt with a rifle on the front of it does not mean she was playing a role or was in any way connected to the horrible events in CT. It also doesn’t mean that there was any “glorification of guns” going on. It’s just a sweatshirt. She wasn’t drawing attention to it. She wasn’t talking about it. She wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary for who she is.

We understand your position. You have family who work in elementary schools. I have two boys who are in elementary school grades. We get it. But in our opinion, you singled out a student and let your personal views of the events cloud your judgement of the situation. That is unacceptable.

~~~~~

Someone on Twitter mentioned speaking to the union legal counsel about this, and we might do that. We may end up in an impromptu meeting tomorrow morning when we turn in her books.

She starts at the same charter school as the boys in January. I have already spoken with our ES about this, and we are all on the same page.

bbogert
12-18-2012, 3:29 PM
Wow.

billmaykafer
12-18-2012, 3:47 PM
It's not fabricated. It's my wife, and one of my 3 daughters that's involved.

i can donate $5 towards her getting another sweat shirt like the one she was wearing. that way she can change em out. having raised 3 kids,i would be upset about this case of a teacher bullying a student. i read your stuff and finally read HE--- so now it is a male teacher bullying a female student which is even worse in my opinion.

MonkeyGrrl
12-18-2012, 4:00 PM
I just noticed that on her blog in the "for those that are new here", she doesn't mention a 15 year old daughter but only her husband, two boys and an adult daughter serving in the Army...

Hope I didn't post something fabricated...

I don't mention the stepkids on that page because they are not "mine" by birth or legal action. But further down on the main page of the blog there is a photo of all of us - minus our adult daughter, who is serving in the Army.

No harm, no foul.

:)

MonkeyGrrl
12-18-2012, 4:05 PM
I sincerely apologize, no harm or foul was intended in that last post.

I'm sorry to hear that this happened to you guys, and to many others out there in the school system work and beyond.

I hope that everything works out and that your daughter gets through it. Teens have enough to deal with, especially now.

Our daughter is doing fine. She is amazed and loving the amount of support she and our family has been shown by people she doesn't even know.

Thank you.

xpbprox
12-18-2012, 4:13 PM
Where the heck is the men in this high school? I've only been out of high school for 3 years now but if that was going on while I was in school I would have ripped the teacher a new one. These damn kids are such damn pansies, stand up for what's right!

keenkeen
12-18-2012, 4:17 PM
I didn't see it in the comment threads but isn't there also a potential civil rights violation here too? (somewhere between first and second amendment)
Somewhere between the first and second amendment?

Not sure you are being serious but I am going to go ahead and guess you are not lawyer. :D

nothinghere2c
12-18-2012, 4:19 PM
I am always disgusted at people who believe that because something makes them uncomfortable that it is wrong and should not be allowed.

wear your sweatshirt with pride as you've done nothing incorrect!

retired
12-18-2012, 4:28 PM
If there are any more posts concerning what the poster wants to do or would do to the teacher, this thread will be closed. Comments relating to using violence against or confronting the teacher verbally in a manner that leos would be called are not appropriate.

David13
12-18-2012, 4:35 PM
If I understand correctly, this teacher had nothing to do with the situation in CT other than watching it on tv.
So what makes him think he has anything to do with it. The "we" and "us" insanity that is used in the media?
And worse, he is so disillusioned he thinks this girl with a sweatshirt on has an involvement in the situation as well?
I think the guy needs a psychiatrist.
dc

Carsgunsandchics
12-18-2012, 4:36 PM
If there are any more posts concerning what the poster wants to do or would do to the teacher, this thread will be closed. Comments relating to using violence against or confronting the teacher verbally in a manner that leos would be called are not appropriate.

What are you a Cop? I keed I keed.
Thanks retired.

I'm guessing by the calls to my wife from local parties that are interested in this coming to something. This thread might come into use by others per usual, and I'd like it to not sound like theirs when they talk about us if possible.

Von_Richthofen
12-18-2012, 4:43 PM
Thanks for the link.

One thing I've told all my kids is that school is really more like a prison.

There is no real tolerance, it isn't fair and teachers don't do what they say.

You just have to deal with it or move to a different school. (which we did do in one case)


I couldn't agree more more... My enjoyment of school ended in the 2nd grade because of a jerk of a teacher... Both my daughters were home schooled once mine encountered a similar twit...

If we could, I'd say pull all our kids out of Public schools for the safety of the children. Especially will all the NRA and gun scapegoating now in full idiotic swing...

retired
12-18-2012, 5:04 PM
Also, don't attempt to post profane words. The word filter will catch it and the asterisks don't fool anyone. I have edited those posts, but they will be deleted in the future.

PassTheAmmo
12-18-2012, 5:10 PM
Somewhere between the first and second amendment?

Not sure you are being serious but I am going to go ahead and guess you are not lawyer. :D

I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I was being serious. She was penalized for an expression that I think would be within her first amendment rights as that expression does not harm anyone (it's not yelling fire in a theater). Additionally it is a conflict over a subject covered by the second amendment. Therefore my phrasing "somewhere between". :)

I don't think it is any different at all than having a teacher humiliate her for wearing a shirt that advertises an organization that promotes search and seizure activism, or any other civil right.

Not to excuse him and all that said, it's been a hard weekend for a lot of people and I'm pretty sure the teacher was probably pretty shaken up. If he makes it right I'd give him a pass. Most teachers are doing what they do because they love kids, certainly not for the pay. Hopefully he's an otherwise good guy that just had a little bit of his optimism about the world stolen.

I can empathize with him. It's a big eye opener when you realize your workplace is not as safe as you thought and that these things really do happen to you and I. I an feel for him. I went through the same eye opener when I was present during the SoCal Edison shootings 368 days ago.

razorx
12-18-2012, 5:10 PM
It's not fabricated. It's my wife, and one of my 3 daughters that's involved.

Ummm... honestly, just reading what the teacher wrote was painful. Never mind the content, but the writing style was incredibly juvenile.

Bluntly, the teacher's qualifications have to be questioned. He just comes across as, well, stupid. No ability to respond to a well-written request for a response.

I think the dialogue should change to the teacher responding to why he should be allowed to continue teaching given this act of bullying aggression.

btw, can a teacher detain someone in a "storage room"?!

Bill Carson
12-18-2012, 5:16 PM
Quoted from what started it.

DEC
17
And then this happened this morning.
Posted on December 17, 2012 by Margaret
And then this happened this morning.
The 15yo called me, in tears. Her history teacher talked about the events on Friday morning, humiliated her in class because she was wearing a Sacramento Black Rifle sweatshirt, told her to remove it, and segregated her from the class when she did not. (It’s cold, she doesn’t have another sweatshirt with her.) Then, as class let out, he stood outside the classroom and continued to humiliate her as she left the classroom. [This sweatshirt has the SBR logo on the front of it. She has been wearing this sweatshirt for about 2wks now. It is not a new thing, just put on today. She will probably wear it again tomorrow.]

I’m waiting for a call back from the assistant principal who is in charge of this teacher. I had one secretary tell me I needed to speak with the teacher first. Umm, no. I’m going up the chain of command.

I called husband to let him know. He is angry. And wants a letter of apology from the school and a verbal apology from the teacher in front of the class. I think that’s reasonable.

If this is how teachers are going to respond in the wake of a violent act against children, is it any wonder that I homeschool my boys? Maybe I should homeschool her, too.

#Angry #NotOk #DontMakeMeHomeschoolHerToo

———- ———- ———-

Edited to add:

I spoke with the assistant principal. She spoke with 15yo in her office and the teacher in passing. I think there’s going to be another meeting with the teacher. She advised that we make contact with the teacher to get some resolution for this, and if it doesn’t happen to our satisfaction, then we contact her again.

I’m now composing an email to the teacher.

———- ———- ———-

Edited to add:

This is the email exchange that happened between me and the staff at the school (assistant principal, principal, counselor – altho only the teacher did the talking). All names have been removed.

~~~~~

From me to teacher:

Teacher -

I am sure you are aware of why I am emailing you.

15yo called me in tears regarding the issue that happened in class today.

As she tells it: she needed help, you came to her, and then started talking about her sweatshirt and the events on Friday, told her to turn it inside out or take it off, she refused, then you told her to finish her schoolwork in the storage room, thus segregating her from the rest of the class, and after class you stood outside the classroom and continued to talk about it.

We (her father, mother, and myself) are justifiably angry and concerned about this. From 15yo’s recounting of the issue in class, we see that:

– You used your personal opinion to single out a child. If it was a general classroom discussion, and everyone was voicing their opinions about something, it would be different. But from what we understand, it was only you.
– You chose to humiliate a student in front of others.
– This looks like bullying behavior. When we, as a society, understand that bullying between students causes negative reactions, and then we, as parents, hear that a teacher has bullied a student, we have to wonder where the students are learning this behavior. I believe it’s learned from a variety of sources, but I fully believe it should never be learned from teacher to student.
– You made 15yo feel as if she was part of the events on Friday. She knows she was not, we know she was not, you know she was not. But whatever you said made her feel this way.
– You sent her out of the classroom because she was wearing a sweatshirt that is not against school policy. This is segregation based on personal opinion. This is humiliation. This is saying she’s not welcome in your classroom and she doesn’t belong.
– As a result of this, she did not feel safe in the classroom. In the wake of such horrific events as those on Friday, this should never happen.

I have spoken to Assistant Principal about this, and she stated the best way to go forward was for us to communicate with you and see if we could come to a solution that works for everyone. There is the chance that your version is different than 15yo’s, and we are open to hearing that. Right now we are expecting a verbal apology in class as that’s where the incident took place.

15yo is talking about being homeschooled because of this event. While I am willing to take that step, I would rather see this resolved in a way that is respectful to her, and for her to continue schooling at High School.

Thank you for your time and consideration on this matter, and I hope to hear from you soon.

~~~~~

From Teacher to me:

When I walked by 15yo while she and fellow students were working together on a final review project I saw that she had a black sweatshirt with a semi-automatic rifle on it. I asked her, which only her neighboring students could hear, if she realized what had happened on Friday. She did not make it clear whether she had or had not, as she usually is reticent about talking out loud in class. When she was unclear I continued to ask if she understood what had happened. I still did not receive a clear answer. I told her that I had spent the weekend hearing about and reading about what had happened and could not look at a sweatshirt that had a weapon on it that was similar to that used on Friday that was used to fire multiple bullets into five-year-olds. I asked her if she could turn it inside out or take it off. She said she couldn’t or wouldn’t. I then asked her to go into the storage room, where students go to make up tests or work quietly if they need to. I was not gentle in my words as I explained what had happened and I know I upset 15yo. I did not see her behavior as defiant but I did not understand it and she could not explain. I was not going to leave her sitting there with a sweatshirt that for my 26 years at High School has been against school policy. If such a change has been made, it has never been made public and if it was the faculty at this school would not support such a policy. If you want to make this a case about her right to wear the shirt I will not change my position.
I do regret that 15yo would have to feel the brunt of this as she seemed to be oblivious of the role she was playing and I am sorry she should have been made the center of some attention today. My wife was an elementary school principal and two of my children work at elementary schools. Glorification of guns should not be part of a school culture. I do not understand how she came to school on this day, with flags at half-mast, with this display. We can discuss all of this further.

~~~~~

My response to Teacher:

To the staff following this email -

After speaking with 15yo’s mother and father, we have come to the conclusion that 15yo will not be returning to High School. We will come in the morning to return 15yo’s books and to get a copy of her transcript.

Teacher -

Just because you do not understand the behavior of a child, does not mean the next course of action should be to remove the child from the classroom.

Assistant Principal confirmed with me and with 15yo that her sweatshirt was not against school policy. Regardless, if you thought it was against school policy, why didn’t you say anything about it prior to today? She has been wearing this sweatshirt to school for at least the last week, if not longer.

We do not understand what you mean by “the role she was playing”. 15yo was a student in your class. That was her role. Nothing more. Wearing a sweatshirt with a rifle on the front of it does not mean she was playing a role or was in any way connected to the horrible events in CT. It also doesn’t mean that there was any “glorification of guns” going on. It’s just a sweatshirt. She wasn’t drawing attention to it. She wasn’t talking about it. She wasn’t doing anything out of the ordinary for who she is.

We understand your position. You have family who work in elementary schools. I have two boys who are in elementary school grades. We get it. But in our opinion, you singled out a student and let your personal views of the events cloud your judgement of the situation. That is unacceptable.

~~~~~

Someone on Twitter mentioned speaking to the union legal counsel about this, and we might do that. We may end up in an impromptu meeting tomorrow morning when we turn in her books.

She starts at the same charter school as the boys in January. I have already spoken with our ES about this, and we are all on the same page.
Good for you.

MonkeyGrrl
12-18-2012, 5:20 PM
I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I was being serious. She was penalized for an expression that I think would be within her first amendment rights as that expression does not harm anyone (it's not yelling fire in a theater). Additionally it is a conflict over a subject covered by the second amendment. Therefore my phrasing "somewhere between". :)

I don't think it is any different at all than having a teacher humiliate her for wearing a shirt that advertises an organization that promotes search and seizure activism, or any other civil right.

Not to excuse him and all that said, it's been a hard weekend for a lot of people and I'm pretty sure the teacher was probably pretty shaken up. If he makes it right I'd give him a pass. Most teachers are doing what they do because they love kids, certainly not for the pay. Hopefully he's an otherwise good guy that just had a little bit of his optimism about the world stolen.

I can empathize with him. It's a big eye opener when you realize your workplace is not as safe as you thought and that these things really do happen to you and I. I an feel for him. I went through the same eye opener when I was present during the SoCal Edison shootings 368 days ago.

All we asked for was an apology in front of the class, since that's where the incident took place. He refused.

Like I said in my post or on FB, I understand where he is coming from. We have two elementary aged children. His wife and kids work in elementary schools. We get it. But one doesn't get to be a bully just because one is emotionally upset about an issue.

Kurus214
12-18-2012, 5:31 PM
I am so sorry for what your daughter and you have to through.
An experienced teacher should have not acted in that manner, the shirt was not profane nor offensive.

On the other hand I'm sure many of us can recount things that a teacher did to us that were not remotely fair and in many cases unethical.

My college profs made no bones about being manipulative, and demanding you bend to their ideology or face a failing grade.

PassTheAmmo
12-18-2012, 5:36 PM
All we asked for was an apology in front of the class, since that's where the incident took place. He refused.

one doesn't get to be a bully just because one is emotionally upset about an issue.

Agreed. He let his emotions get the best of him and you're going about it all level headedly.

Carsgunsandchics
12-18-2012, 6:20 PM
Sorry for supporting you?!?!?! Put your biz on the net and report my post!

I do not like what that teacher said, it was not nice, I hope he apoligizes and learns his lesson...

that better? :eek: :facepalm: :mad: :rolleyes:

I know it get's frustrating as hell. Trust me I'd be first in line to tap dance on a spleen, but I can't let it get me to that point. It's how the nutjob would be able to prove a non point

readysetgo
12-18-2012, 6:31 PM
I know it get's frustrating as hell. Trust me I'd be first in line to tap dance on a spleen, but I can't let it get me to that point. It's how the nutjob would be able to prove a non point

Never mind, I apologize. This forums fraying the nerves, time to take a break. Good luck, I'm sure you'll all be just fine, seems like you've got a great family.

FourT6and2
12-18-2012, 6:53 PM
I'm definitely not a lawyer, but I was being serious. She was penalized for an expression that I think would be within her first amendment rights as that expression does not harm anyone (it's not yelling fire in a theater). Additionally it is a conflict over a subject covered by the second amendment. Therefore my phrasing "somewhere between". :

And what if a student has a shirt that portrays someone being executed by firing squad? A gang-related image? Or other imagery/words that may be inappropriate? It is not a violation of anybody's rights for a public school to make certain types of clothing against the rules to wear. When I was in middle school, we were not allowed to wear shirts that depicted violent imagery or language, including guns, knives, and other weapons.

I'm not saying that this girl's shirt was wrong or anything. I see no problem with it. But the fact is a public school can make rules stating certain items of clothing are not permitted. And that's not a violation of anybody's rights. To a point...

If they made a rule stating nobody can wear the color blue, then there may be a problem. But if the school says you can't wear clothing depicting obscene, violent, or otherwise inappropriate imagery and language, then I don't think anybody is going to start yelling civil rights.

Apparently, her shirt was not in violation with the school's dress code. That's all that matters. If the teacher didn't like it, too bad for him. He didn't violate anybody's civil rights by unfairly chastising a student, though.

Carsgunsandchics
12-18-2012, 7:01 PM
Apparently, her shirt was not in violation with the school's dress code. That's all that matters. If the teacher didn't like it, too bad for him. He didn't violate anybody's civil rights by unfairly chastising a student, though.

She was sent to a storage closet after being publicly ridiculed by the teacher before the whole class. And after followed out of the class while still being berated. If this doesn't seem to be a problem to you make sure to have you family attend his class. And with schools harping constantly about not allowing any form of bullying this should of been the last place for this to happen according to them and their given rules.

jdberger
12-18-2012, 7:06 PM
It's not fabricated. It's my wife, and one of my 3 daughters that's involved.

Please post the name and contact info for the school as well as the name of the teacher. If you're uncomfortable doing that, please send it to me as a PM.

This isn't a 2A issue. It's a free speech issue.

This is t any different than iF the girl had been wearing an MLK shirt and the teacher had spent the last 26 years opposing the Civil Rights movement.

sharxbyte
12-18-2012, 7:22 PM
Teachers bullying should lose their jobs

SWalt
12-18-2012, 7:40 PM
All for wearing a sweat shirt that was within policy? The teacher was highly unprofessional for reacting the way he did. He let his own prejudices and fears control his actions and took it out on a 15 yr old. Be sure and let your daughter know not only did she not do anything wrong but in life we all will come across people who are unreasonable. This teacher will be just one of many.

FourT6and2
12-19-2012, 5:06 AM
She was sent to a storage closet after being publicly ridiculed by the teacher before the whole class. And after followed out of the class while still being berated. If this doesn't seem to be a problem to you make sure to have you family attend his class. And with schools harping constantly about not allowing any form of bullying this should of been the last place for this to happen according to them and their given rules.

Please read more critically.

I never said what the teacher did was NOT wrong. I simply said his actions did not seem to violate the girl's CIVIL RIGHTS. Big difference.

And words like "storage closet" and "publicly ridiculed" are deliberate pejoratives meant to increase the negativity of the situation. You and I weren't there. We don't know the true severity of the situation enough to say either way. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not one to hop on a bandwagon and start pointing my finger before thinking about a situation. It's obvious, though, that due to the recent events in CT, this teacher blew this situation with the shirt out of proportion. And that was wrong of him. If you or other people want to make a Supreme Court Civil Rights case out of it, go ahead. That's your right. :)

MonkeyGrrl
12-19-2012, 7:56 AM
Please read more critically.

I never said what the teacher did was NOT wrong. I simply said his actions did not seem to violate the girl's CIVIL RIGHTS. Big difference.

And words like "storage closet" and "publicly ridiculed" are deliberate pejoratives meant to increase the negativity of the situation. You and I weren't there. We don't know the true severity of the situation enough to say either way. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not one to hop on a bandwagon and start pointing my finger before thinking about a situation. It's obvious, though, that due to the recent events in CT, this teacher blew this situation with the shirt out of proportion. And that was wrong of him. If you or other people want to make a Supreme Court Civil Rights case out of it, go ahead. That's your right. :)

You are right, we weren't there. Our daughter's words were "he humiliated me in class and after class" and "he sent me out of class to the storage closet to finish my work". She told this to me and to the assistant principal.

We only wanted an apology, in front of the class. When I talked to SBR about the incident - since it was their sweatshirt she was wearing, and they are our friends - they posted the blog link on their page and this whole thing blew up.

Do I think it will go to the Supreme Court? No. Do I think that people need to be aware that bullying is happening between teachers and students in the public school setting? Yes.

*shrug*

Lives_In_Fresno
12-19-2012, 8:03 AM
It seems to me that if the teacher was really upset about the sweatshirt and what was written on it, and also if the teacher knew it was against policy, the teacher would have sent the girl to the principal's office.

Sending her to a storage room instead suggests that he knew he was wrong.

email
12-19-2012, 8:25 AM
clothing logos are dangerous.

I can see someone getting a corneal scratch by removing it too quickly with their eyes open or something.

Be careful out there, people.

zfields
12-19-2012, 8:26 AM
It's not fabricated. It's my wife, and one of my 3 daughters that's involved.

Nail that teachers nuts to the wall. Don't settle for anything less then his job.

Even if you are pulling the child, he still needs to apologize in front of the class to show the other students that his actions were wrong. Anything less is not fair to your kid, and gives the wrong impression on the other children.

Sent from my Incredible 2

FourT6and2
12-19-2012, 4:26 PM
It seems to me that if the teacher was really upset about the sweatshirt and what was written on it, and also if the teacher knew it was against policy, the teacher would have sent the girl to the principal's office.

Sending her to a storage room instead suggests that he knew he was wrong.

Very good point. If I were a teacher and a student broke the rules, I wouldn't argue about it. I would send that student to the Principal's office and let him handle it.

You are right, we weren't there. Our daughter's words were "he humiliated me in class and after class" and "he sent me out of class to the storage closet to finish my work". She told this to me and to the assistant principal.

We only wanted an apology, in front of the class. When I talked to SBR about the incident - since it was their sweatshirt she was wearing, and they are our friends - they posted the blog link on their page and this whole thing blew up.

Do I think it will go to the Supreme Court? No. Do I think that people need to be aware that bullying is happening between teachers and students in the public school setting? Yes.

*shrug*

Well, I hope it all works out for you and yours. :)

NoHeavyHitter
12-19-2012, 4:43 PM
I think you've been way too "nice" in your handling of the issue.

If it had been my daughter, the school district would have been hearing from my attorney. Teachers are hired to teach - not bully or humiliate students whose clothing they may not like. This teacher should be placed on a suspension and fired if he repeats the offense in the future.

I neglected to mention that withdrawing your daughter from that school was an excellent response as they will ultimately "feel" a reduction in their funding. If they comment to you further on your daughter's withdrawal - tell them where they can pound sand.

Guntech
12-19-2012, 5:23 PM
I am so sorry for what your daughter and you have to through.
An experienced teacher should have not acted in that manner, the shirt was not profane nor offensive.

On the other hand I'm sure many of us can recount things that a teacher did to us that were not remotely fair and in many cases unethical.

My college profs made no bones about being manipulative, and demanding you bend to their ideology or face a failing grade.

Yeah I remember having to write a paper in high school regarding whether or not you believed in the death penalty. Up until then I pulled good grades on all my papers, once I said I supported the death penalty, welcome to C ville.

jdberger
12-19-2012, 10:57 PM
Please read more critically.

I never said what the teacher did was NOT wrong. I simply said his actions did not seem to violate the girl's CIVIL RIGHTS. Big difference.

And words like "storage closet" and "publicly ridiculed" are deliberate pejoratives meant to increase the negativity of the situation. You and I weren't there. We don't know the true severity of the situation enough to say either way. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not one to hop on a bandwagon and start pointing my finger before thinking about a situation. It's obvious, though, that due to the recent events in CT, this teacher blew this situation with the shirt out of proportion. And that was wrong of him. If you or other people want to make a Supreme Court Civil Rights case out of it, go ahead. That's your right. :)

Actually, the teacher DID violate her civil rights. See Tinker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_ District). And in case you didn't notice, Tinker was a Supreme Court case.

The School, by not properly interfering and demanding an apology from the teacher, also violated the student's civil rights.

There are further steps to be taken, here.

keenkeen
12-19-2012, 11:21 PM
Actually, the teacher DID violate her civil rights. See Tinker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_ District). And in case you didn't notice, Tinker was a Supreme Court case.

The School, by not properly interfering and demanding an apology from the teacher, also violated the student's civil rights.

There are further steps to be taken, here.

It would be a stretch to assume a court would find a promotional sweatshirt from a local business to be protected political speech...but you never know.

Wonder how many hundred thousands it would cost the OP to find out?
:D

markgrubb
12-19-2012, 11:39 PM
While I completely concur that the teacher totally mishandled the situation, likely violated school policy and completely let his personal feeling interfere with his professional duties, his actions are not contractually grounds for dismissal nor should they be.

If everyone who mishandled an interpersonal encounter such as this was fired, there would not be any teachers, cops or other people entrusted with oversight left. They would all be jobless. Judging an individual's fitness for duty based on a single, event such as this is inappropriate and unrealistic.

People make mistakes, become emotional and speak "out of turn". This guy surely did. Does that single event make him a poor teacher worthy of losing his livelihood and potentially depriving students of what may be a Good Teacher when he is not having a Really Bad Moment? Termination for 15 minutes or an hour (?) of poor judgment during an verbal interaction with a group of 15 year olds over a sweatshirt? Get real.

He should have kept his personal opinions to himself, even if it was the worst day if his life. He should have sent the kid to the Administrator if he believed a school policy was violated by the clothing. He definitely owes the child a public apology.

Getting everyone (teacher, kid, parent, administrator) in a room to discuss this face-to-face like adults would help the situation immensely. E-mail is a poor mode of discussing/resolving difficult issues.

Sitting down with the teacher and having your child look him in the eye, and declaring how the teacher made her feel and then firmly but politely asking for an apology could be an amazing and transforming event for the girl. Kids do not magically become resilient, confident adults; it is learned. How about using this opportunity to help your child to grow emotionally and giving the teacher an opportunity to make amends for his error?

Pulling your kid from school for this single reason is a big mistake and an overreaction. The child will learn that when confronted with interpersonal conflict the solution is to run away. Is this what you want your daughter to do for the rest of her life when someone treats her poorly? Run Away? How about using this event as a lesson in dealing with personal conflict in a positive manner? If you bail, there will be no closure. Teacher will not be held accountable. Admin is not held accountable. The Kid's eduction is hampered by mid-year displacement. School is deprived of concerned, proactive parents who are critical to making public education work.

Good Things could come of this event should you choose to make it so. I hope it works out for all of you - including the teacher.

keenkeen
12-19-2012, 11:41 PM
While I completely concur that the teacher totally mishandled the situation, likely violated school policy and completely let his personal feeling interfere with his professional duties, his actions are not contractually grounds for dismissal nor should they be.

If everyone who mishandled an interpersonal encounter such as this was fired, there would not be any teachers, cops or other people entrusted with oversight left. They would all be jobless. Judging an individual's fitness for duty based on a single, event such as this is inappropriate and unrealistic.

People make mistakes, become emotional and speak "out of turn". This guy surely did. Does that single event make him a poor teacher worthy of losing his livelihood and potentially depriving students of what may be a Good Teacher when he is not having a Really Bad Moment? Termination for 15 minutes or an hour (?) of poor judgment during an verbal interaction with a group of 15 year olds over a sweatshirt? Get real.

He should have kept his personal opinions to himself, even if it was the worst day if his life. He should have sent the kid to the Administrator if he believed a school policy was violated by the clothing. He definitely owes the child a public apology.

Getting everyone (teacher, kid, parent, administrator) in a room to discuss this face-to-face like adults would help the situation immensely. E-mail is a poor mode of discussing/resolving difficult issues.

Sitting down with the teacher and having your child look this teacher in the eye, and declaring how the teacher made her feel and then firmly but politely asking for an apology could be an amazing and transforming event for the girl. Kids do not magically become resilient, confident adults; it is learned. How about using this opportunity to help your child to grow emotionally and giving the teacher to make amends for his error?

Pulling your kid from school for this single reason is a big mistake and an overreaction. The child will learn that when confronted with interpersonal conflict the solution is to run away. Is this what you want your daughter to do for the rest of her life when someone treats her poorly? Run Away? How about using this event as a lesson in dealing with personal conflict in a positive manner?

If you bail, there will be no closure. Teacher will not be held accountable. Admin is not held accountable. Kid's eduction is hampered by mid-year displacement. School is deprived of concerned, proactive parents who are critical to making public education work.

Good Things could come of this event should you choose to make it so.

I hope it works out for all of you - including the teacher.

Wow..Very solid post. Thank you.

jdberger
12-19-2012, 11:42 PM
Au contrair...

If it was SBR wearing the shirt, it would be commercial speech (which still enjoys some protections). But it wasn't. It was a student who was wearing a shirt which expressed some of her beliefs.

In any event, we'll see where this leads.

keenkeen
12-19-2012, 11:50 PM
Au contrair...

If it was SBR wearing the shirt, it would be commercial speech (which still enjoys some protections). But it wasn't. It was a student who was wearing a shirt which expressed some of her beliefs.

In any event, we'll see where this leads.

It won't lead anywhere mon frere...

Unless someone ponys up major $$$ to try and make a point in court.

Who is in? ;)

kel-tec-innovations
12-19-2012, 11:51 PM
I knew a lot of teachers like this when I was a kid. They bully the crap out of me because I did not fit in and I was an easy target. The way teachers bullied me made playground bullies like it was vacation. Even the class bullies in the class told me after class "what the teacher said, thats f'ed up" and padded me on the back. Those teachers and their own damn agenda's

jdberger
12-20-2012, 1:36 AM
It won't lead anywhere mon frere...

Unless someone ponys up major $$$ to try and make a point in court.

Who is in? ;)

You're right. Persuing basic civil rights is simply too time consuming, too difficult and too expensive.

Maybe I should reconsider the work I do for gun-rights, too.....

MonkeyGrrl
12-21-2012, 2:12 PM
For those interested ---

jdberger drafted a letter, my husband and I reviewed and edited it, and I have sent it to the school staff - Principal, two assistant principals, the teacher, and the superintendent.

It reads as follows:

Dear Principal Jordan,

As you are well aware, on December 17, 2012, my daughter, Megan Smith, was singled out and humiliated by her History teacher, Peter Graham, for wearing a sweatshirt which had a viewpoint with which he disagreed.

First, Mr. Graham questioned her about the events on Friday, December 14th, then told her to remove the sweatshirt or turn it inside out. When she did neither because she was cold and because the sweatshirt is not against school policy, Mr. Graham told her she had to finish her work in a storage room. After the class period concluded, Mr. Graham continued to berate and belittle my daughter for the message he thought her sweatshirt sending. None of this has been disputed by Mr. Graham.

When contacted by me by email, Mr. Graham stated that he, “could not look at a sweatshirt that had a weapon on it that was similar to that used on Friday that was used to fire multiple bullets into five-year-olds.” Further, Mr. Graham stated, “[I]f you want to make this a case about her right to wear the shirt I will not change my position.”

According to page 28 of the Student Cougar Planner 2011 - 2012 (http://www.centerusd.k12.ca.us/cusd/Portals/18/2012-2013%20Docs/2012-2013%20Cougar%20Planner.pdf) “students have the right to full use of class time for receiving instruction and for learning and the right to fair, consistent, and respectful treatment by staff members and other students.” Placing a 15 year old student in a closet for any part of the class period and then berating them as they leave in front of other students satisfies neither guarantee.

It is unfortunate that Center High School sees fit to employ a History teacher who doesn't seem able to grasp that the First Amendment protects the right of students to express their opinions. Students don't give up their right to express opinions on matters of public importance once they enter school. Schools are not speech-free zones. Viewpoint-specific speech restrictions are a violation of the First Amendment [see Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 US 503 (1969)]. Though Mr. Graham’s feelings about the tragic incident at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Connecticut are understandable, they don’t give him leave to violate the First Amendment rights of his students.

With the exception of the disruptive and inappropriate actions by Mr. Graham, there doesn't appear to be any evidence that the sweatshirt in question created any disturbance or disruption in the school, and there doesn't appear to be any basis for Mr. Graham’s discomfort other than his assertion that the sweatshirt conveyed an unpopular political message.

Courts have emphasized that students benefit when school officials (including teachers) provide an environment where they can openly express their diverging viewpoints and when they learn to tolerate the opinions of others. Segregating students to a closet over a sweatshirt doesn't seem to be encouraging diverse viewpoints.

Mr. Graham needs to atone for his actions. We would like to see the following happen:

1) Since my daughter no longer attends Center High School, Mr. Graham needs to write a sincere letter of apology to my daughter for his actions on December 17.

2) Mr. Graham needs to make a sincere public apology to the History class for his actions on December 17. We will know this has happened, because my daughter still has friends in the classroom.

Please also know that we will reserve the right to file a formal complaint with the Superintendent of Instruction in accordance with 5 CCR 4630 alleging discrimination and failure to comply with state and federal laws.

Hopefully, Mr. Graham will make amends and we can all move past this event, becoming better, more tolerant and more knowledgeable in the process.

With best regards,



Cc: Sarah Wetteland, Assistant Principal
Steve Jackson, Assistant Principal
Peter Graham
Scott Loehr, Assistant Superintendent of Instruction

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Like I told jdberger, we are not going to the media with this because we don't want it to go from a child wearing a sweatshirt to a potential copycat killer. It's Christmas, we don't need that. If it ends up in the media, we will roll with it. We have heard from various sources that the media - Fox News and local radio station 98 Rock - and Calguns, etc are interested in pursuing this further, but we haven't heard anything from them. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it just is. We are ok, regardless.

Our daughter is better for knowing she is supported and in a place where her schooling is important, not the clothing she is wearing.

Again, thank you for the support you have shown her. I never expected this situation to get so big. Wow. lol

Lazyme
12-21-2012, 2:51 PM
Good for you and good luck.

bohoki
12-21-2012, 3:16 PM
so if someone had a picture of a luger on their clothes it was a gun used by the nazis you must be a nazi

FourT6and2
12-21-2012, 4:28 PM
Actually, the teacher DID violate her civil rights. See Tinker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_ District). And in case you didn't notice, Tinker was a Supreme Court case.

The School, by not properly interfering and demanding an apology from the teacher, also violated the student's civil rights.

There are further steps to be taken, here.

I don't think a picture of a firearm on a shirt that promotes a club or a commercial entity qualifies as free speech. But I could be wrong. And Tinker was about free political speech. The students were protesting a war. Again, I'm not arguing that what this teacher did was right. I'm just thinking out loud

It would be a stretch to assume a court would find a promotional sweatshirt from a local business to be protected political speech...but you never know.

Wonder how many hundred thousands it would cost the OP to find out?
:D

Yep, pretty much.

gunace89
12-21-2012, 5:56 PM
Carschicsandguns and MonkeyGrrl I just want to commend you on good parenting and demanding that this teacher atone for his actions.
Going on close to 10 years ago when I was a freshman in HS the exact same incident occured to me. I was wearing a shirt that had a logo from a local youth shooting league team that I was a member of and I was humilitated infront of a class and threatened with suspension from the school. Somehow, my family and I were put in contact with some sort of NRA or NSSF attorney ( I cant remember which). For free of charge we sued the district for violation of 1A rights forcing the district to rewrite their policies. If you would like to PM me, im pretty sure that I still have the contact info for the attorney, and I can offer an article written about me to substantiant that I am not a liar:D Keep up the pressure, and put the school in its place.

Nessal
12-21-2012, 7:52 PM
Is there any way for us to help out?

liberallyloaded
12-23-2012, 1:56 AM
With such a focus on bullying these days, one would think that the teacher would have more sense... Not only so that he wouldnt have put himself in this ridiculous situation, but that he would use what happened as fuel for self reflection. Like all of our mishaps in life, this situation could have been used as a teaching moment for himself and all the students if he were to apologize to everyone involved in front of the class, as you requested. There are times like this when I am embarrassed to be a teacher... There are *edit- special people* in every profession, I guess.

Colt
12-23-2012, 12:01 PM
Uh, where's the ACLU? Shouldn't they be all over a First Amendment issue?







Oh, never mind....

bohoki
12-23-2012, 6:44 PM
the teacher should be in trouble unless

"Mr. Graham told her she had to finish her work in a storage room."

is accepted policy

also get the fire marshal involved if the room had a lock on the door(it doesnt have to be locked) and shut with no window they will fine the school
i'm sure the storage room does not have an occupancy rating

Horton Fenty
12-23-2012, 7:55 PM
I was not going to leave her sitting there with a sweatshirt that for my 26 years at High School has been against school policy. If such a change has been made, it has never been made public and if it was the faculty at this school would not support such a policy. If you want to make this a case about her right to wear the shirt I will not change my position.


After learning from the Assistant Principal that the sweatshirt is not against policy I would tell that teacher that she's going to either change her position....or stfu.

jdberger
12-23-2012, 8:31 PM
Colt- the psychic for the ACLU is on Winter Solstice break. Please feel free to reach out and contact the Sacramento chapter.

Thanks (in advance) for getting involved.

Colt
12-23-2012, 10:42 PM
Colt- the psychic for the ACLU is on Winter Solstice break. Please feel free to reach out and contact the Sacramento chapter.

Thanks (in advance) for getting involved.

Thanks for the head's up - I completely forgot about the psychic's union getting winter solstice break for the rank and file...

Jet Setter
12-24-2012, 1:04 AM
Sad. Glad to read that your daughter and family are OK. Teacher needs to be reprimanded to the fullest extent.

jdberger
12-24-2012, 1:22 AM
I don't think a picture of a firearm on a shirt that promotes a club or a commercial entity qualifies as free speech. But I could be wrong. And Tinker was about free political speech. The students were protesting a war. Again, I'm not arguing that what this teacher did was right. I'm just thinking out loud



meh.

cites, please.

So, if I wore a t-shirt with SBR's logo to a pro-gun rally at the state capitol, said nothing, carried no sign, and was arrested, I'd have no 1A claim? 'Cause it was a 'commercial' t-shirt?

What if the flag I burn was made by Bob's Flags (and was so labeled, prominently)?

******

Fight fight fight for your rights.... or don't.

But if you do not choose to do so, please don't discourage others by exclaiming that their cause is lost, the battle is too difficult, too expensive.

Rifter
01-05-2013, 9:52 AM
Things like this are why I home school my child. That and the fact that one teacher with 30 kids just can't compete with one on one instruction. Nice to see others here that are of like mind. Not everyone has the time it takes to home school, but from personal experience, I have no regrets or reservations. We involve our child in many activities outside the home, but day to day instruction comes from us, the parents, who love them the most. I applaud your decision to home school.

Wang Lung
03-08-2013, 1:24 PM
Is there an update on this? Did the guy ever apologize?

Jacfourteen
03-10-2013, 4:32 PM
Is there an update on this? Did the guy ever apologize?
X2,
Any update?

Carsgunsandchics
03-10-2013, 5:47 PM
Not a thing from the school, maybe they didn't like it when we put my daughter in home schooling.

Bsandoc40
03-10-2013, 6:30 PM
Uh, where's the ACLU? Shouldn't they be all over a First Amendment issue?







Oh, never mind....

Right to the point. 2A isn't supported by liberal politiians and liberal millionaires. So, the ACLU won't support it. the ACLU isn't about fighting for the freedoms and rights of Americans. They are the attack dogs for liberal/progressive agenda.

68Drop
03-10-2013, 6:59 PM
You handled that with a lot more tact than I would have given the circumstances. Hopefully I am wrong in that. But, had that been my child, that school would have had one hell of a big problem on their hands.

Carsgunsandchics
03-10-2013, 7:11 PM
I myself never went to the school for the purpose of staying out of jail. My wife informed them it would be a bad idea for me to step foot in an office with this teacher.

obiwan
03-10-2013, 7:49 PM
Home school - difficult but all the effort is worth the reward.

Carsgunsandchics
03-10-2013, 7:53 PM
Home school - difficult but all the effort is worth the reward.

This was her second year back from being homeschooled, but she along with her younger brothers are all homeschooled once again.

68Drop
03-10-2013, 8:37 PM
I myself never went to the school for the purpose of staying out of jail. My wife informed them it would be a bad idea for me to step foot in an office with this teacher.

The email reply made the teacher out to be a pompous ***. Is the teacher male or female?

Carsgunsandchics
03-10-2013, 8:42 PM
The email reply made the teacher out to be a pompous ***. Is the teacher male or female?

The teacher was a Douche of the male variety.