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View Full Version : Denied PPT of a Complete Lower because it has no BB?


JackRydden224
12-17-2012, 6:33 PM
So I wast at Turners in Orange trying to PPT a complete lower I was previously using for a .22 upper. The store employee, Reed, examined the lower and told me I had to take it out of the store because it is an assault weapon! I told him a complete lower is an AOW and exempt from the AWB. He went to get his manager who came back and said the same thing. A complete lower without a bullet button is an assault weapon therefore Turners will not handle the PPT unless it has a bullet button or its going to be a stripped lower. I asked him if this is his company policy or DOJ law, he said both.

I bought my lower from Riflegear without a bullet button so I know I'm good to go. Now where exactly can I find the law or PC that says complete lowers are good to go?

bwiese
12-17-2012, 6:36 PM
Multiple parties are wrong.

Your complete lower is NOT an AOW. It's just a Title 1 firearm.

He's wrong that it requires a BulletButton - though that admittedly was a product of early 2006 paranoia until clarification.

That lower is not semiauto, not centerfire and not even a rifle.

eaglemike
12-17-2012, 6:37 PM
The AW laws pertain to semi-automatic centerfire arms. Surely they know this. You might point out the lower is neither. :) No constructive possession laws about this.

ETA:
I had Royal Loan (here in San Diego) refuse to transfer a built lower even though it was in originally purchased from them and built in agreement with the document they required me to sign when I purchased it. As one might suspect, they will never get another cent of my money.

SKSer
12-17-2012, 6:37 PM
Did you buy it from turners complete without a BB? Also does it have caliber markings?

jonc
12-17-2012, 6:40 PM
That's turners...:confused:

HowardW56
12-17-2012, 6:40 PM
Multiple parties are wrong.

Your complete lower is NOT an AOW. It's just a Title 1 firearm.

He's wrong that it requires a BulletButton - though that admittedly was a product of early 2006 paranoia until clarification.

That lower is not semiauto, not centerfire and not even a rifle.


Now all the OP needs if for Bill to explain it all to Turners, not that they will listen...

JackRydden224
12-17-2012, 6:48 PM
Multiple parties are wrong.

Your complete lower is NOT an AOW. It's just a Title 1 firearm.

He's wrong that it requires a BulletButton - though that admittedly was a product of early 2006 paranoia until clarification.

That lower is not semiauto, not centerfire and not even a rifle.

Thank you for clarifying. I now the know the current term going forward. I tried to point out that its not even a rifle so it can't be an assault weapon but they wouldn't take it. Their lost.


The AW laws pertain to semi-automatic centerfire arms. Surely they know this. You might point out the lower is neither. :) No constructive possession laws about this.

ETA:
I had Royal Loan (here in San Diego) refuse to transfer a built lower even though it was in originally purchased from them and built in agreement with the document they required me to sign when I purchased it. As one might suspect, they will never get another cent of my money.

They don't know the law and being a corporate they have to be more careful, that I can understand, but to be completely wrong and won't admit it? That's another story.


Did you buy it from turners complete without a BB? Also does it have caliber markings?

I bought it from Riflegear, they are much more knowledgable.

Now all the OP needs if for Bill to explain it all to Turners, not that they will listen...

I think I can look into Tier 1 firearms. Turners won't listen and they won't get another dime from me.

HowardW56
12-17-2012, 6:54 PM
I think I can look into Tier 1 firearms. Turners won't listen and they won't get another dime from me.


Why don't you post you complaints in the Turners subforum? They're more likely to read it there...


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=238

JackRydden224
12-17-2012, 7:03 PM
Why don't you post you complaints in the Turners subforum? They're more likely to read it there...


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=238

Howard you are right. I need to let other people know Turners won't PPT their complete lower without a BB.

Steph
12-17-2012, 7:06 PM
Budsgunshop wouldn't sell me a stripped lower either for the same reason.

tenpercentfirearms
12-18-2012, 5:36 AM
I sell lowers off my wall without Bullet Buttons in them, but I tell people all the time it is illegal so I don't have to do their PPTs.

Mitch
12-18-2012, 6:01 AM
I bought it from Riflegear, they are much more knowledgable.

If you had taken it to RifleGear for the PPT, there wouldn't even be a thread here.

dieselpower
12-18-2012, 6:10 AM
Lol @ 10%...troll much

decepticon6551
12-18-2012, 6:22 AM
I sell lowers off my wall without Bullet Buttons in them, but I tell people all the time it is illegal so I don't have to do their PPTs.

:rofl2:

Wiz-of-Awd
12-18-2012, 6:51 AM
Sometimes...

Stores simply don't want to get into the middle of any potential gray area, or area of possible ATF/DOJ issues or misunderstanding.

Problem is, at times, employees and even shop management make bad decisions in their understanding of what is legal and allow to transpire at the counter. Corporate realizes this, and backs off from what their official stance is on what is "legal" to protect themselves and the company.

There is simply too much at stake for chains such as Turners to have something "go wrong" with a transfer - such as losing their FFL.

Sometimes...

Stores will simply opt to not get involved and play things hyper-safe to preserve their business and licensing.

I know, as I used to work there and directly with management on the corporate level, as well as another South OC shop once upon a time.

Just deal with it and go elsewhere.

A.W.D.

harley66
12-18-2012, 7:35 AM
why not just get the bb and be done with it - yes, we can complain but its a private business -

Iam a little confused about 10% statement = He will sell a lower off his wall but NOT do a ppt of one??

JackRydden224
12-18-2012, 7:37 AM
Sometimes...

Stores simply don't want to get into the middle of any potential gray area, or area of possible ATF/DOJ issues or misunderstanding.

Problem is, at times, employees and even shop management make bad decisions in their understanding of what is legal and allow to transpire at the counter. Corporate realizes this, and backs off from what their official stance is on what is "legal" to protect themselves and the company.

There is simply too much at stake for chains such as Turners to have something "go wrong" with a transfer - such as losing their FFL.

Sometimes...

Stores will simply opt to not get involved and play things hyper-safe to preserve their business and licensing.

I know, as I used to work there and directly with management on the corporate level, as well as another South OC shop once upon a time.

Just deal with it and go elsewhere.

A.W.D.

That's exactly what I am going to do.

I would have no problem if it is their corporate policy to not transfer a complete lower without a BB. However to call it an assault weapon and using false information to deny the transfer is unacceptable. I work in corporate so I understand the politics but we never, ever, tell our customer something that is completely false and try to stick with it.

LMTluvr
12-18-2012, 7:50 AM
why not just get the bb and be done with it - yes, we can complain but its a private business -

Iam a little confused about 10% statement = He will sell a lower off his wall but NOT do a ppt of one??

It was a joke..spread a little FUD so he doesn't have to deal with people wanting to do ppt's there. Can't blame him:D

12voltguy
12-18-2012, 8:20 AM
why do people still shop turners?

Wiz-of-Awd
12-18-2012, 8:28 AM
why do people still shop turners?

Because in certain areas, there simply are no other traditional gun shops to shop in. For some, there is Turners and the Internet - nothing else to choose from.

A.W.D.

JackRydden224
12-18-2012, 8:30 AM
why do people still shop turners?

Because they open until 8. I would have hit riflegear if they didn't close at 7.

Oh well, I'm going to OC Armory to do the transfer and I'll buy something from them.

12voltguy
12-18-2012, 8:32 AM
Because they open until 8. I would have hit riflegear if they didn't close at 7.

Oh well, I'm going to OC Armory to do the transfer and I'll buy something from them.

that didn't help did it?;)

tenpercentfirearms
12-18-2012, 10:12 AM
Iam a little confused about 10% statement = He will sell a lower off his wall but NOT do a ppt of one??

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=450737&highlight=ppt

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=454297&highlight=ppt

navycorpsman
12-18-2012, 10:25 AM
So I wast at Turners in Orange trying to PPT a complete lower I was previously using for a .22 upper. The store employee, Reed, examined the lower and told me I had to take it out of the store because it is an assault weapon! I told him a complete lower is an AOW and exempt from the AWB. He went to get his manager who came back and said the same thing. A complete lower without a bullet button is an assault weapon therefore Turners will not handle the PPT unless it has a bullet button or its going to be a stripped lower. I asked him if this is his company policy or DOJ law, he said both.

I bought my lower from Riflegear without a bullet button so I know I'm good to go. Now where exactly can I find the law or PC that says complete lowers are good to go?

The Day i listen to anyone at turners about gun laws and gun policy is when hell freezes over. I shop at turners but 99% of people I have deealt with no nothing of most guns they sell, let alone the laws to own and posses them

stator
12-18-2012, 4:09 PM
CA assault weapon laws apply to title 1 firearms. Assuming this is not a model banned by name, you need to worry about features. It is possible for a complete lower to have features that would violate CA law.

You also need to worry about how the lower was transferred prior. You cannot arbitrarily convert a long gun into a pistol, yada, yada, yada.

eaglemike
12-18-2012, 4:41 PM
CA assault weapon laws apply to title 1 firearms. Assuming this is not a model banned by name, you need to worry about features. It is possible for a complete lower to have features that would violate CA law.

You also need to worry about how the lower was transferred prior. You cannot arbitrarily convert a long gun into a pistol, yada, yada, yada.
I'm interested in learning about these features. Please expound. I'm guessing you are referring to the AW laws, based on the context of the thread and your post. Since the lower doesn't have a barrel, is it rimfire, centerfire, or we don't know? Since it doesn't have any cycling ability, is it semi-automatic? Single shot? Bolt action?

If the OP had any FA parts, this would obviously be an issue. I recall no mention of FA parts. So - please educate me about these lower features.

stator
12-19-2012, 6:45 AM
I'm interested in learning about these features. Please expound. I'm guessing you are referring to the AW laws, based on the context of the thread and your post. Since the lower doesn't have a barrel, is it rimfire, centerfire, or we don't know? Since it doesn't have any cycling ability, is it semi-automatic? Single shot? Bolt action?

If the OP had any FA parts, this would obviously be an issue. I recall no mention of FA parts. So - please educate me about these lower features.

Turner's was probably right, but we need to know how was this firearm transferred in the past (OP said he was trying to do a PPT) and what state was the "complete lower" is it. If it was transferred as a long gun in the past, and the lower had a pistol grip and/or a collapsible stock, it is very likely AW per CA law without a BB installed.

If it was legal transferred as a pistol in the past, he would have some more leeway with the configuration of the lower. However, OP cannot legally convert a long gun into a pistol after the fact.

Finally, it is difficult for the OP to be walking around with a completed lower with a pistol grip and try to defend himself that it is a rimfire long gun when the rimfire upper was not attached nor being transferred, and a standard AR centerfire upper can be readily attached. This is a recipe for have a really bad legal/court system experience.

I'd say that it is very likely OP dodged a bullet and Turner's did him a favor by asking him to walk rather than taking other actions.

eaglemike
12-19-2012, 6:51 AM
Turner's was probably right, but we need to know how was this firearm transferred in the past (OP said he was trying to do a PTT) and what state was the "complete lower" is it. If it was transferred as a long gun in the past, and the lower had a pistol grip and/or a collapsible stock, it is very likely AW per CA law without a BB installed.

If it was legal transferred as a pistol in the past, he would have some more leeway with the configuration of the lower. However, OP cannot legally convert a long gun into a pistol after the fact.

Finally, it is difficult for the OP to be walking around with a completed lower with a pistol grip and try to defend himself that it is a rimfire long gun only if the rimfire upper was not attached nor being transferred, and a standard AR centerfire upper can be readily attached.

I'd say that it is very likely OP dodged a bullet and Turner's did him a favor by asking him to walk rather than taking other actions.
There is so much FUD/bad intel in this post I can't believe it. I know you've been here for a while, longer than I IIRC. Please see the bolded part above.
Are you saying there are constructive possession issues here? Seriously?

HowardW56
12-19-2012, 6:51 AM
Turner's was probably right, but we need to know how was this firearm transferred in the past (OP said he was trying to do a PPT) and what state was the "complete lower" is it. If it was transferred as a long gun in the past, and the lower had a pistol grip and/or a collapsible stock, it is very likely AW per CA law without a BB installed.

If it was legal transferred as a pistol in the past, he would have some more leeway with the configuration of the lower. However, OP cannot legally convert a long gun into a pistol after the fact.

Finally, it is difficult for the OP to be walking around with a completed lower with a pistol grip and try to defend himself that it is a rimfire long gun when the rimfire upper was not attached nor being transferred, and a standard AR centerfire upper can be readily attached. This is a recipe for have a really bad legal/court system experience.

I'd say that it is very likely OP dodged a bullet and Turner's did him a favor by asking him to walk rather than taking other actions.


Multiple parties are wrong.

Your complete lower is NOT an AOW. It's just a Title 1 firearm.

He's wrong that it requires a BulletButton - though that admittedly was a product of early 2006 paranoia until clarification.

That lower is not semiauto, not centerfire and not even a rifle.



I put more faith in Bill...

stator
12-19-2012, 7:05 AM
There is so much FUD/bad intel in this post I can't believe it. I know you've been here for a while, longer than I IIRC. Please see the bolded part above.
Are you saying there are constructive possession issues here? Seriously?

No, not at all.... because constructive possession is about turning something into another that it was not previously registered as, nor is allowed.

I think where we mostly separate is the definition of constructive possession.

Why on earth would OP take off his .22 upper and walk around in public with a completed lower with a likely pistol grip attached is beyond me. This is invite the gman into one's live needlessley.

At least keep the .22 upper on it and PPT in that configuration, or install a cheap BT, or remove the pistol grip and sale that separately.

Geez, people.... use some common sense unless you have money to burn in the legal system and want to be testing the gun laws.

eaglemike
12-19-2012, 7:22 AM
No, not at all.... because constructive possession is about turning something into another that it was not previously registered as, nor is allowed.

I think where we mostly separate is the definition of constructive possession.

Why on earth would OP take off his .22 upper and walk around in public with a completed lower with a likely pistol grip attached is beyond me. This is invite the gman into one's live needlessley.

At least keep the .22 upper on it and PPT in that configuration, or install a cheap BT, or remove the pistol grip and sale that separately.

Geez, people.... use some common sense unless you have money to burn in the legal system and want to be testing the gun laws.
Who said anything about walking around in public?
Considering one can LEGALLY PURCHASE a complete lower, with a telescoping stock and pistol grip, and walk out of the the gun store with it (and I have) - with zero issues and breaking no law - I think your info is incorrect.

BONECUTTER
12-19-2012, 8:20 AM
So much FUD by stator.

A semi auto, centerfire, rifle, with evil features can be considered and assualt weapon.

A lower, complete or not, follow with me:
Semi auto= no
Centerfire= no
Rifle= no

It's a title 1 receiver and can not be considered and AW based on CA law.

Seriously some people who do know should just be quiet.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-19-2012, 8:27 AM
Union Surplus in San Pedro did that to me once (before they went out of business). Stupid... :rolleyes:

tenpercentfirearms
12-19-2012, 8:38 AM
Stator is 100% incorrect. A lower receiver and or a complete lower receiver is not a semi-automatic centerfire rifle. Therefore it is not restricted by the Category 3 rules. Sorry Stator. You are dead wrong.

phrogg111
12-19-2012, 8:45 AM
So I wast at Turners in Orange trying to PPT a complete lower I was previously using for a .22 upper. The store employee, Reed, examined the lower and told me I had to take it out of the store because it is an assault weapon! I told him a complete lower is an AOW and exempt from the AWB. He went to get his manager who came back and said the same thing. A complete lower without a bullet button is an assault weapon therefore Turners will not handle the PPT unless it has a bullet button or its going to be a stripped lower. I asked him if this is his company policy or DOJ law, he said both.

I bought my lower from Riflegear without a bullet button so I know I'm good to go. Now where exactly can I find the law or PC that says complete lowers are good to go?

A lower without an upper is not semi automatic.

I own a rifle with no bullet button, and it's CA legal, because it's SINGLE SHOT

These people are full of it. They have to verify your lower is being sold to someone over 21, and it's called a "Title 1 Firearm"

My gun, CA legal, no bullet button, regular mag release:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=185597&stc=1&d=1355939313

CEDaytonaRydr
12-19-2012, 8:50 AM
Stator is 100% incorrect. A lower receiver and or a complete lower receiver is not a semi-automatic centerfire rifle. Therefore it is not restricted by the Category 3 rules. Sorry Stator. You are dead wrong.

...and this guy would know! He was the one who sent the lower to Union when they did the same, stupid thing that Turners did. Since the gun is still in my safe, and Wes isn't in jail, I'm going to go ahead and assume that he knows what he's talking about. ;)