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MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 10:16 PM
I was just talking about this tragic event with my wife, when I suddenly thought that perhaps it would be a good idea to have a handful of licensed and well trained parents to voluntarily act as security force in schools. Of coarse, their are a lot of concerns and question that will arise along with this idea, but I think it is a simple idea that will require minimal funding. The way I think about it is like a P.T.A. security force. I imagine that these folks will have an extensive background check (psychological, criminal, basically completely transparent) and have to show proof of ability and training. I think that two a day would be good, so if one parent wants to go berserk, the other would be there to stop him. BUT, to minimize the possibility of some random guy shooting up the school even more, all volunteer security parents must be the parent of a student that currently attends the school that they will be securing. Plus, there can be one at each side of the school. I sure would volunteer to do this if this was an option, and who better to help secure a school than a parent that has a child there? I think that this will make another school shooting, at least with high casualties, almost imposible and unheard of. This is just a quick post on an idea I have JUST thought of, so I am sure a lot of you can come up with more reasons why this would be a great idea, and even some that can help me see why this could be a bad idea. I sure would love to see what you guys think... Take it away!

Tripper
12-16-2012, 10:18 PM
Can't even have volunteer crossing guards with the red tape the way it is around here

xpbprox
12-16-2012, 10:19 PM
Have school shootings really gone up

MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 10:24 PM
Can't even have volunteer crossing guards with the red tape the way it is around here

Hahaha. Well, it wouldn't be mandatory, so if nobody qualifies, the school will not have parents helping to secure it.

wjc
12-16-2012, 10:25 PM
If you must consider this, think of the number of veterans returning from Iraq or A'stan. Most peopl are probably not able to handle these types of situations.

The vets are better qualified to handle emergency situations and they need the jobs.

..and no, I'm not being flippant. I've seen how my ex handled emergencies and it was pathetic.

MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 10:27 PM
If you must consider this, think of the number of veterans returning from Iraq or A'stan. Most peopl are probably not able to handle these types of situations.

The vets are better qualified to handle emergency situations and they need the jobs.

..and no, I'm not being flippant. I've seen how my ex handled emergencies and it was pathetic.

Well, I don't think most vets will qualify due to PTSD and all that.

DannyInSoCal
12-16-2012, 10:32 PM
We have air marshals - Why not school marshals...?

Eliminate entitlements for illegals - Use the money to fund this program.

Reassign the 20,000 Marines instead of sending them to the unemployment lines.

Yes - It s that easy..,

MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 10:46 PM
We have air marshals - Why not school marshals...?

Eliminate entitlements for illegals - Use the money to fund this program.

Reassign the 20,000 Marines instead of sending them to the unemployment lines.

Yes - It s that easy..,

Well, to me, the problem with this is primarily PTSD. I am not sure I would trust a vet with possible mental stress from war. I don't mean to be a jerk to vets, but I know a couple of guys who's history would come back squeaky clean, but have told me some things that make me question their character. They weren't that way before the enlisted and were deployed. Also, there's no way in hell there would be an agreement of what cuts to make to fund this. I DO like the idea, but I can't seem to find more problems with this than solutions.

taperxz
12-16-2012, 10:48 PM
An LTC is for self defense. There is no way LE would or should allow people using them as LE or guards. Just because someone has an LTC, doesn't mean they are trained for such duty. The liability factors would also be a huge factor since you would be guarding other peoples kids.

wjc
12-16-2012, 10:50 PM
Well, to me, the problem with this is primarily PTSD. I am not sure I would trust a vet with possible mental stress from war. I don't mean to be a jerk to vets, but I know a couple of guys who's history would come back squeaky clean, but have told me some things that make me question their character. They weren't that way before the enlisted and were deployed. Also, there's no way in hell there would be an agreement of what cuts to make to fund this. I DO like the idea, but I can't seem to find more problems with this than solutions.

Perhaps screening? Finding differing degrees of PTSD?

Just a thought...

wjc
12-16-2012, 10:52 PM
An LTC is for self defense. There is no way LE would or should allow people using them as LE or guards. Just because someone has an LTC, doesn't mean they are trained for such duty. The liability factors would also be a huge factor since you would be guarding other peoples kids.

Very good points. Especially in society as it is now.

MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 10:56 PM
An LTC is for self defense. There is no way LE would or should allow people using them as LE or guards. Just because someone has an LTC, doesn't mean they are trained for such duty. The liability factors would also be a huge factor since you would be guarding other peoples kids.

And nobody is saying an LTC means such. That's why, in the starting post, training, ability, and transparency is stressed. I would trust the safety of my children to a father of a child that has been thoroughly screened and can go through a strict program for qualification, than I would to some random LE. The parent has a lot invested in the school due to his own children going there. I am not talking about some random guy with a license to conceal carry. The parent would have to meet strict requirements that would make him just as qualified as LE.

JackRydden224
12-16-2012, 10:57 PM
Have the media send out a message that shooting cartels and gangs is the hip thing to do and we'll have the problem solved.

MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 10:59 PM
Have the media send out a message that shooting cartels and gangs is the hip thing to do and we'll have the problem solved.

I agree with you 1000000000000%

taperxz
12-16-2012, 11:13 PM
And nobody is saying an LTC means such. That's why, in the starting post, training, ability, and transparency is stressed. I would trust the safety of my children to a father of a child that has been thoroughly screened and can go through a strict program for qualification, than I would to some random LE. The parent has a lot invested in the school due to his own children going there. I am not talking about some random guy with a license to conceal carry. The parent would have to meet strict requirements that would make him just as qualified as LE.

Sorry, it just doesn't work this way in the real world. Our best chance for such a scenario would be retired LE on the payroll. Which i personally would endorse and be willing to be taxed for.

Why not? We are already paying for crappy teachers with tenure anyway. Whats an armed guard for something that is worth while?

(no i don't think all teachers are bad, perhaps just a few though)

MindBeyondAverage
12-16-2012, 11:19 PM
Sorry, it just doesn't work this way in the real world. Our best chance for such a scenario would be retired LE on the payroll. Which i personally would endorse and be willing to be taxed for.

Why not? We are already paying for crappy teachers with tenure anyway. Whats an armed guard for something that is worth while?

(no i don't think all teachers are bad, perhaps just a few though)

Well, I generally agree with you, but I just don't believe that it would be done that way. I would not mind being taxed for this as well, but I would still trust a person who has their own child's life invested, then I would someone who is doing it for money. I am aware that it doesn't work this way, but I think it is a better alternative to most other options and I think it CAN work this way. Either way, this was just an idea that I wanted to see what others thought. I wouldn't think for one second that this would ever really happen.

voiceofreason
12-16-2012, 11:24 PM
Ah, the Israeli solution.

Works for them.

ColdDeadHands1
12-16-2012, 11:35 PM
We have air marshals - Why not school marshals...?

Eliminate entitlements for illegals - Use the money to fund this program.

Reassign the 20,000 Marines instead of sending them to the unemployment lines.

Yes - It s that easy..,

Not a bad idea. Call your Congressman!

Jarrod
12-17-2012, 3:12 AM
At one school I taught at, a fellow teacher was a former cop. 10+ years of experience. Decided he liked teaching more.

I don't see why guys like that couldn't be hired as reserve officers and be allowed to carry on campus.

Wdyt?

BT JUSTICE
12-17-2012, 6:55 AM
I think we need to establish a national model for this, with support from local Law Enforcement and School Districts. That will be the hard part. The rest is pretty simple to implement:

-Valid CCW with specific training on School Shootings (maybe 2 day course?)
-Annual Psychological evaluation
-Annual Criminal History Check
-Photo Id Issued by LEA
-Concealed Ballistic Vest
-Portable radio with earpiece on primary LEA dispatch channel
-No uniforms, patches or visible tactical crap
-Volunteers to report to school office and LE dispatch at start/end of shift
-Volunteers to report suspicious vehicles or persons via radio. No non-essential radio trafffic or Police Records access
-Volunteers are not meant to be School Resource Officers; no involvements with non-violent disciplinary matters.
-Volunteers should have no other duties beyond protecting the lives of students and staff from violent attack.
-Volunteers' weapon, vest and duties should remain unknown to students. Should look like just another faculty member walking around campus.

It sounds really boring, especially when you consider how many schools we have and the likelyhood of something actually happening at any one of them. But its very important nonetheless and I wholeheartedly support a program along these lines. This will do much more for the safety of our kids than any band-aid gun ban the commie government can push on us.

hvengel
12-17-2012, 7:14 AM
Ah, the Israeli solution.

Works for them.

Yes it did starting in the mid 1970s. They did a three pronged program.

1. More armed police on campus.
2. Arm teachers,
3. Armed volunteers on campus - mostly parents but not limited to parents.

It was very effective. In fact so effective that in 2004 Thailand started doing almost the exact same program in response to school shooting there. Both countries have these programs in place today because they work and are not even thinking about discontinuing the program.

Also both countries had very strict gun laws before these programs started. Israel has a long history with the militia model (which is what this really is) and initially started with just schools and the areas around schools. But over time has expanded this to where it allows armed citizens almost everywhere in Israel. This solution scares the hell out of the anti's because it actually would bring back the militia in it's true meaning and they will fight like hell to keep that from happening. I think we should fight like hell to make it happen as it is really the only viable (proven to work) solution to this issue.

pHredd9mm
12-17-2012, 8:11 AM
Civilian militia to protect schools. Both times I was in Israel they had volunteers (I called them the "old home guard", of what looked like retired gentlemen, guarding schools, hotels, etc., armed with M-16 or Uzis. Works very well for them.

MindBeyondAverage
12-17-2012, 2:15 PM
I think we need to establish a national model for this, with support from local Law Enforcement and School Districts. That will be the hard part. The rest is pretty simple to implement:

-Valid CCW with specific training on School Shootings (maybe 2 day course?)
-Annual Psychological evaluation
-Annual Criminal History Check
-Photo Id Issued by LEA
-Concealed Ballistic Vest
-Portable radio with earpiece on primary LEA dispatch channel
-No uniforms, patches or visible tactical crap
-Volunteers to report to school office and LE dispatch at start/end of shift
-Volunteers to report suspicious vehicles or persons via radio. No non-essential radio trafffic or Police Records access
-Volunteers are not meant to be School Resource Officers; no involvements with non-violent disciplinary matters.
-Volunteers should have no other duties beyond protecting the lives of students and staff from violent attack.
-Volunteers' weapon, vest and duties should remain unknown to students. Should look like just another faculty member walking around campus.

It sounds really boring, especially when you consider how many schools we have and the likelyhood of something actually happening at any one of them. But its very important nonetheless and I wholeheartedly support a program along these lines. This will do much more for the safety of our kids than any band-aid gun ban the commie government can push on us.

Damn, man... It's your idea now. Hahaha. Yea, I think this would be great, and yes it would be extremely boring, but I would still do it for my kids safety. I agree with everything you have posted and think it's work out juuuust fine.

Flipdude
12-17-2012, 9:36 PM
There are at least 5-6 LEO parents at my kids school and I've thought about bringing this idea to them as well. I am good friends with a couple of them and I had actually tested to be an SDPD recruit back in 2009 but they decided not to hire. However, I haven't had the chance to talk to them as of yet.

G-forceJunkie
12-17-2012, 9:48 PM
Never going to happen. The will expel your child for bringing a toe nail clipper or Advil on campus, you think they will let you walk around with a gun?!?! PERHAPS someone with valid full POST security guard training would be allowed to volunteer, but joe blow parent? Nope.

MindBeyondAverage
12-17-2012, 9:53 PM
There are at least 5-6 LEO parents at my kids school and I've thought about bringing this idea to them as well. I am good friends with a couple of them and I had actually tested to be an SDPD recruit back in 2009 but they decided not to hire. However, I haven't had the chance to talk to them as of yet.

If you really plan to talk to them, let me know how that turns out.

Flipdude
12-17-2012, 10:55 PM
Never going to happen. The will expel your child for bringing a toe nail clipper or Advil on campus, you think they will let you walk around with a gun?!?! PERHAPS someone with valid full POST security guard training would be allowed to volunteer, but joe blow parent? Nope.

I agree with you on that 100% that they won't let just any parent patrol around campus armed with a gun. But my purpose of asking them is that maybe they can implement some kind of a partnership where non LEO parents can assist an armed LEO parent volunteer to patrol around schools. Granted that they may have to get some basic police training like the senior volunteer program that SD Sheriff has.

If you really plan to talk to them, let me know how that turns out.

Ok, I will post what comes out of that here.

chip3757
12-18-2012, 4:28 AM
What is with all the elitist LEO and Military bull...

I have been on emergency scenes with multiple LEO's who have the 1000yd stare, barely functional. Were these folks born with a 40 in their hand and the ability to keep their cool in stressful situations?

I would trust a well trained volunteer parent before retired grandpa LEO, and certainly both of those before before a combat vet. War is hell. Not their fault, they sacrificed everything for us, they shouldn't have to work at all IMO.

MindBeyondAverage
12-18-2012, 4:42 AM
What is with all the elitist LEO and Military bull...

I have been on emergency scenes with multiple LEO's who have the 1000yd stare, barely functional. Were these folks born with a 40 in their hand and the ability to keep their cool in stressful situations?

I would trust a well trained volunteer parent before retired grandpa LEO, and certainly both of those before before a combat vet. War is hell. Not their fault, they sacrificed everything for us, they shouldn't have to work at all IMO.

That is my stance, as well.

Flipdude
12-18-2012, 6:42 AM
What is with all the elitist LEO and Military bull...

I have been on emergency scenes with multiple LEO's who have the 1000yd stare, barely functional. Were these folks born with a 40 in their hand and the ability to keep their cool in stressful situations?

I would trust a well trained volunteer parent before retired grandpa LEO, and certainly both of those before before a combat vet. War is hell. Not their fault, they sacrificed everything for us, they shouldn't have to work at all IMO.

It is sad what this state/country has come to, where your most basic and fundamental right to defend yourself and your family is questionable and has become unconstitutional. The media is also part of the problem, they glorify these tragedies so that the gun grabbers can push their agendas on us citizens. What the media doesn't cover is how armed law abiding citizens are able to save lives in mass shootings or in other armed criminal situations. Granted that we don't want to be vigilantes, then in these situations we must work together with local LEO and abide by the local gun laws.

RookieShooter
12-18-2012, 6:53 AM
Just hired couple security guards. One station in the main office and the other outside on the school's perimeter.

Lives_In_Fresno
12-18-2012, 7:13 AM
Well, I don't think most vets will qualify due to PTSD and all that.

No offense meant, but do you have any idea what PTSD is, and what frequency it occurs?

Most vets return just fine. You just never hear about them.

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/pages/epidemiological-facts-ptsd.asp

YORCHI117
12-18-2012, 8:32 AM
I wouldn't feel comfortable knowing a random schmuck who did the bare minimum to get his or her CCW is at the school my daughter and wife are at 'securing' the premises...I would feel comfortable if the school was incredibly hard to get into and all the entry points were either bulletproof or tamper proof so that my kid and wife are safe inside the classroom as my money is inside a vault...

I would like more people to get a CCW and have it so I know there are more people around to help if the cops don't get there in time but I also would like us active duty military to be able to open carry in uniform more easily like recruiters or people on leave or just at home but currently our services don't allow us. In the Marines we can't wear our cammies out in town and recruiters aren't allowed to carry but I think we should. There are usually more recruiting stations in a major town or city than there are police stations. That could help if bad guys knew that there was active military with guns in the areas they wanted to attack...

not-fishing
12-18-2012, 8:40 AM
I have a CCW for a number of years and I've been an Adult Volunteer / Assistant Coach at a local High School for the last three years. I'm very careful and don't bring my firearm unless I'm only going to be there for a few minutes.

My children have attended a couple of the local elementary schools through High School for the last 20 years (different kids different schools as the schools were built)

That being said I doubt that the School District would want me armed on campus because I'm not LEO (it's a Political Correctness thing)

rplusplus
12-18-2012, 8:45 AM
Liability would make it a non-starter.

That being said, think about how Soccer Moms on the PTA already think they can do anything they want, now arm them...

YubaRiver
12-18-2012, 8:56 AM
Even unarmed, a lot of benefit could come of having more Dad's in the school
as volunteers. One extra set of eyes and ears for red flags in kids behavior or someone approaching the campus.

But especially, Perhaps a Dad, who had taken extra interest in Adam, might have made all the difference.

Jack L
12-19-2012, 8:11 AM
If you must consider this, think of the number of veterans returning from Iraq or A'stan. Most peopl are probably not able to handle these types of situations.

The vets are better qualified to handle emergency situations and they need the jobs.

..and no, I'm not being flippant. I've seen how my ex handled emergencies and it was pathetic.\

I agree to using a well qualified person for security. Not a teacher who has other duties and may not be as trained or qualified or will not go the mile as a pro would.