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USMCM16A2
12-16-2012, 2:29 PM
Folks,



As we all know, the shootings in CT have all the big-mouthed politicians yelling their collective asses off about gun-control. I discussed in a previous thread I started that needs to be a dialogue.
This dialogue needs to be between parties that are serious about reducing the threat to our little and not so little ones. Mental health professionals, law makers, gunowners, law enforcement the SAF, and the NRA.
Discussion that protects people, secures/protects the Second amendment. The human excrement I mentioned in my title are all about banning this, banning that that is a given. The Second Amendment has been ruled on as an individual right by the Supreme Court in 2008.
The above mentioned folks can posture/yell/scream to the highest heavens about what they are going to introduce in Congress FAIL. The House will destroy any such bill. This is not the 1990s when the idiots could run rough shod over the 2A. We have a Supreme Court that has made itself clear
and McDonald saying that this applies to all .
So in the midst of the tradgedy, if any of these fools tries something, there is a little document called the Bill of Rights, and two court decisions. The SAF and NRA will draw the legal sword, and go after these jackasses. A2

tackdriver
12-17-2012, 8:13 AM
Yup, discussion and compromise based upon good judgement decisions would be great. Unfortunately, there are those out there like that "Mayor" of New York who was just quoted as saying (paraphrase) "We need to renew the assault rifle ban, Obama should stop asking Congress what they want and TELL them what to do"
Now that, to me, is truly frightening....

taperxz
12-17-2012, 8:17 AM
Folks,



As we all know, the shootings in CT have all the big-mouthed politicians yelling their collective asses off about gun-control. I discussed in a previous thread I started that needs to be a dialogue.
This dialogue needs to be between parties that are serious about reducing the threat to our little and not so little ones. Mental health professionals, law makers, gunowners, law enforcement the SAF, and the NRA.
Discussion that protects people, secures/protects the Second amendment. The human excrement I mentioned in my title are all about banning this, banning that that is a given. The Second Amendment has been ruled on as an individual right by the Supreme Court in 2008.
The above mentioned folks can posture/yell/scream to the highest heavens about what they are going to introduce in Congress FAIL. The House will destroy any such bill. This is not the 1990s when the idiots could run rough shod over the 2A. We have a Supreme Court that has made itself clear
and McDonald saying that this applies to all .
So in the midst of the tradgedy, if any of these fools tries something, there is a little document called the Bill of Rights, and two court decisions. The SAF and NRA will draw the legal sword, and go after these jackasses. A2

READ THE STICKY AT THE TOP!!!!!

UNTIL A BILL IS ACTUALLY DRAFTED, THIS IS ALL SPECULATION.

Librarian has deleted 30 of these threads already and for good reason. Nothing has happened yet. It may not even happen at all. No one knows.

You have as good a chance as believing the Mayan Calendar is right and we are all going to die this month.

1BigPea
12-17-2012, 8:18 AM
I surely hope the majority of people see that it's not a problem with guns...

-hanko
12-17-2012, 8:25 AM
to the OT forum where it belongs?

Please...

OP, Semper Fi

-hanko

donw
12-17-2012, 8:50 AM
last i heard, congress had an 11% approval rating...that seems a bit high, but it's easy to see why.

we need to revamp Washington d.c, and Sacramento, starting with clearing the white house...

Curley Red
12-17-2012, 9:00 AM
READ THE STICKY AT THE TOP!!!!!

UNTIL A BILL IS ACTUALLY DRAFTED, THIS IS ALL SPECULATION.

Librarian has deleted 30 of these threads already and for good reason. Nothing has happened yet. It may not even happen at all. No one knows.

You have as good a chance as believing the Mayan Calendar is right and we are all going to die this month.

But it is more fun to run around worrying that they are going to take away our guns rights and to make assumptions and call people names. That is how it works here.

najay
12-17-2012, 9:01 AM
You have as good a chance as believing the Mayan Calendar is right and we are all going to die this month. week. FTFY. :D :rolleyes:

SilverTauron
12-17-2012, 9:05 AM
The Bill of Rights didn't stop the first AWB,and that bill didn't have the PR benefit of a recent school shooting.

While I don't think for a second that another AWB is a rubber stamp proposition,it won't be easily defeated like the 12 previous attempts to renew it have been.IMO if you've been planning to buy a 'controversial rifle' now is the time. Otherwise all that's left to do is for us to sit tight and wait.

NotEnufGarage
12-17-2012, 9:52 AM
OP must enjoy opening threads that will end up getting closed and deleted....

iron cannon
12-17-2012, 10:05 AM
This shooting is having a galvanizing effect like no other.

Expect major changes.

iron cannon
12-17-2012, 10:05 AM
Deleted

strummerenator
12-17-2012, 10:15 AM
We all should take a moment to reflect, respect the families of these very innocent victims, and clear our collective conscience and minds. What I fear above all else, is a rash, emotional attitude leading to legislation based on the acts of a mentally ill, criminal that will remove individual rights and liberties for only the law abiding citizens. Ex-popst facto laws are unconstitutional, so any such legislation with retro active "confiscations" will be struck down by an Appellate court well before it reached the Supreme Court level. What these so called "leaders" should be addressing are the many needs we have domestically. It is OK for them to use the hated "assault weapons" and "military style weapons" to kill abroad, just not OK anywhere it may threaten their abusive strangle hold on power. We have needs domestically such as education, health care, unemployment, infrastructure, and obviously mental health care that should be addressed prior to getting mired down in this political quagmire that will only result in the loss of liberty for law abiding tax payers, and job losses for those in the industries impacted. We can fight with political clout, so we all should donate what we can to the NRA-ILA. Any such law will do nothing to address the societal decay we have and the lack of punishment for criminals. We can't proxy values and personal responsibility to Washington as many lawmakers desire, as Washington has demonstrated the ability to show neither.

jamesob
12-17-2012, 10:16 AM
whoever thinks that some major anti 2nd bills will not pass and get signed are ignorant. the bill of rights are changing, not the wording, but the interpitations. because of mentally deranged individuals we all have just lost some of our freedoms. whoever thinks that i'm wrong just wait and see.

strummerenator
12-17-2012, 10:20 AM
These "leaders" all follow the same formula when it comes to 2nd amendment interpretations as well. They fall back on "hunting and sporting" purposes, yet that had nothing to do with the 2nd amendment, a "well regulated militia" rarely takes collective hunting trips. So for them to determine yours and my needs based on that interpretation is preposterous. I don't tell them what vehicle they "need", when clearly there are more economical and green choices to be made. Just something to watch out for, as they all seem to use this approach.

dad
12-17-2012, 10:29 AM
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/12/martin-albright/albright-awb-unlikely/

Goop
12-17-2012, 10:31 AM
Don’t forget when the assault weapon ban passed in ’94 the Democrats had the Presidency, Senate and House. With Republicans having the house now it will be MUCH harder to pass. Not impossible, but much more difficult. Since we are all in California anyway, I’m not sure how much of this will impact us even at all.

We will just have to see what the nature of the bill is. I think if the Dems are smart they will try and group it into a mental health funding bill or maybe a new position on arming school security officers. If they try and run it just solo as a gun ban, the house will crush it like they are doing with the current budget proposals.

Window_Seat
12-17-2012, 10:33 AM
The reality of it is that there really is no "dialog" or "discussion" to be initiated or continued with "the other side" because that side wants complete bans on entire classes of arms and repeals of the 2nd, while not having any desire for addressing the issues concerning the mentally ill. A major factor of this is that the other side can't handle the facts, numbers and data from highly credible sources which favor our initiatives.

I keep asking the question; Why is it that we as a society haven't addressed what to do about people refusing to seek emotional assistance with conditions like PTSD, major depression, paranoia and other mental illness because they know their Second Amendment rights will automatically be violated per W&IC § 5150?

As for the dialog between non-politicians and every day folks like us and the side which is also hellbent on bans and and a repeal of the 2nd;

As an example, yesterday my cousin cut me off on FB because "I am promoting a violent America", and that "my thoughts are all convoluted".

Oh well, I won't shed any tears, but I will say that he lost the debate because I hit him with nothing but facts, numbers and data from knowledge I learned from the court system(s) and everything I learned here and there, thanks in total part to Calguns, the Second Amendment Foundation, GS2AC, Don Kilmer, Alan Gura, Paul Clement, Gene Hoffman, Puppy8a9 (Alany), Gray Peterson, Kevin Thomason, Michel Lawyers (Yes, I know some of you are very critical), Brandon Combs, Bobbi Ross and so many others who I admire.

The debating doesn't continue to be productive because they walk away when we hit them with facts, numbers & data, and that is exactly what I did from the time of Aurora (when he said "repeal the 2nd"), and up until yesterday when he threw his hands up and cut me off of his page, and he displayed that he could no longer handle the debating because he knew (even though he took debating courses) that he was a loser.

My cousin's motivating factor (I think) was me assuring another user participating in the discussion that there would be nobody attempting to "count to 38" for purposes of "Article V", but there were other points in the "discussion" where his "blood would boil", and it really showed.

Having said that, it's getting vitriolic out there. We know what it's like for Yee to get hate stuff (no I'm not defending him, just saying that it sometimes goes around both sides), but I remained completely civil in my debates with him and will continue to remain civil in other debates.

I think that my eldest brother and I would have had a better discussion if he were here, because he was supportive of the carry license initiative (as applied to me), but hated AWs at the time. That was over 2 years ago, and I've got to move on.

The part where the discussion has GOT to end is where they call us "killers" and accusing us of promoting this that and the other violent agenda for America.

Having written this short piece, I will say that anyone who presents the question to me on what should be done, my solution will be in terms of addressing the problems with regard to the mentally ill getting better and more dignified care, teachers being able to arm themselves and us being able to arm ourselves outside the home.

The attempt at the first part of the solution might not be as easy as the others I list, but it really needs to be addressed before the next incident that we might consider the most immense yet catastrophe.

Meanwhile, we should remain quiet until they speak up. When they do, we hit them with nothing but facts, numbers and data from ONLY credible sources.

What I would strongly suggest we do is to take in as much of the knowledge that we learn here, at meetings, in court, while reading court opinions, and make sure it is all credible facts, numbers and data, and then set out to repeat as much of it as possible, while not letting our emotions get in the way.

Erik.

strummerenator
12-17-2012, 10:39 AM
Well stated Erik, I concur 100% with the numbers and data, as although facts don't lie, they can be manipulated with pieces conveniently omitted to support an argument. I think a calm, collected, intellectual approach is the way to combat all false allegations.

iron cannon
12-17-2012, 11:08 AM
deleted

glbtrottr
12-17-2012, 11:12 AM
The 2nd will be killed by executive order of sorts, not legislation.

Fascist steps by Naomi Wolf

1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy
2. Create a gulag (GITMO still in use, but locals coming)
3. Develop a thug caste - ever hear of the Tea Party?
4. Set up an internal surveillance system
5. Harass citizens' groups
6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release
7. Target key individuals
8. Control the press
9. Dissent equals treason
10. Suspend the rule of law

another view:

Nat'l ID Cards
Nat'l Education and Indoctrination of Children
Gov't Control of Healthcare and Business
People as Livestock
Gun Control
Enforcing Political Correctness
Informers
Ability to arrest people at will
Add'l attempts to increase federal power
Bypassing Congress and Ruling by Executive Regulations

Hitler's sequence of events:

Reichstag Fire (Dutch Communist burning down German Parliament)
General Election (arresting the communist opposition, giving him a majority)
Enabling act (giving Hitler the power to create his own laws)
Local Government Takeover (Jews, Gays, Communists...to camps)
Trade Unions Banned
Political Parties banned
Night of the Long Knives (when hitler ordered the SA that helped him come into power killed) - SEIU?
Fuhrer - appointment.

glbtrottr
12-17-2012, 11:12 AM
I composed a fictitious speech on how the 2nd appointment may come to pass on another thread, all from Obama's language, "channeling him" if you will...enjoy.

"Thank you so much, thank you.

To all of the families and first responders in the community of Newtown, clergy, guests, I would like to express my sincerest condolences for your losses. The lives of all those children were lost in a school that could be any school in America. Twenty beautiful children and six outstanding adults were lost in a town full of good and decent people to gun violence.
Newtown, You are not alone.
As a community, you've inspired us, Newtown. In the face of indescribable violence, in the face of unconscionable evil, you've looked out for each other, and you've cared for one another, and you've loved one another.

That we are in the midst of a crisis is well understood. Our nation is at war within itself, fueled by a culture of guns and gun violence that can no longer be ignored. Our economy is badly weakened, Americans want answers and change.
Today, we find ourselves at a crossroads in American history. It is a time where you can go into any town hall, street corner or coffee shop and hear people express the same anxiety about our future, hear them convey the same uncertainty about the direction we are headed as a country with our existing levels of gun violence. These are Americans who still believe in an America where anything is possible – they just don’t think their leaders do. These are Americans who still have big dreams – they just sense their leaders have forgotten how.
There are indicators of crisis, data and statistics that all point to the problem which is all too common. Gun violence must stop. The problem is worsened by our collective failure to make hard choices and prepare the nation for a new age.
Today I say to you the challenges we face are real. The challenges we face today are serious and real, and they are many. But this is America.
We, as a nation, we are left with some hard questions. This is our first task -- caring for our children. It's our first job. If we don't get that right, we don't get anything right. That's how, as a society, we will be judged.
And by that measure, can we truly say, as a nation, that we are meeting our obligations? Can we honestly say that we're doing enough to keep our children -- all of them -- safe from harm? Can we claim, as a nation, that we're all together there, letting them know that they are loved, and teaching them to love in return? Can we say that we're truly doing enough to give all the children of this country the chance they deserve to live out their lives in happiness and with purpose?

I've been reflecting on this the last few days, and if we're honest with ourselves, the answer is no. We're not doing enough. And we will have to change.

There have been an endless series of deadly shootings across the country, almost daily reports of victims, many of them children, in small towns and big cities all across America -- victims whose -- much of the time, their only fault was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

We can't tolerate this anymore. These tragedies must end. And to end them, we must change. We will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true. No single law -- no set of laws can eliminate evil from the world, or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But that can't be an excuse for inaction. Surely, we can do better than this. If there is even one step we can take to save another child, or another parent, or another town, from the grief that has visited Tucson, and Aurora, and Oak Creek, and Newtown, and communities from Columbine to Blacksburg before that -- then surely we have an obligation to try.

We need to express our collective anger through collective action


I, like most Americans, believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms. And we recognize the traditions of gun ownership that passed on from generation to generation -– that hunting and shooting are part of a cherished national heritage. Personally, I don't believe that people should be able to own guns. I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manufacturers' lobby.
Simply because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can’t constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.

We have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it’s important for us to recognize that we’ve got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people’s traditions.

Today, we choose hope over fear, unity over purpose over conflict or discord.
On this day, we come to proclaim an end to petty grievances and differences across the aisle. We must no longer be immobilized by inaction. At some point in time, we have to make hard choices, and we have to step up and do what’s right.
There are those who will disagree and look for technicalities in our process. Many will question our ambitions. Many will not tolerate our big plans, for they will have forgotten what this country has already done, what free men and women can achieve when imagination is joined to common purpose and the necessity of courage.
What the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath them - that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for so long no longer apply. The question we ask today is not whether current laws are too few or too many but whether they work - whether they help families and their children be safe. Where the answer is yes, we intend to move forward. Where the answer is no, we will have to implement change.
As for our self defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals. Our Founding Fathers, faced with perils we can scarcely imagine, drafted a charter to assure the rule of law and the rights of man, a charter expanded by the blood of generations. Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. With that in mind, people must be free to live with dignity, safety and security.
Recall that earlier generations understood that our power alone cannot protect us, nor does it entitle us to do as we please. Instead, they knew that our power grows through its prudent use; our security emanates from the justness of our cause, the force of our example, the tempering qualities of humility and restraint.
We have tried time and again to implement policy that works by bringing safety and security to our children. These have simply not worked. Our children continue to be placed in harms way, placed there by the easy availability of tools of destruction devised for killing and military use. Unfortunately, those policies have themselves been flawed. Columbine, Connecticut, and many other massacres are occurrences that we as Americans can no longer tolerate.
We've been reminded recently that all the problems we face as a nation matter little if these young people can't walk the streets of their neighborhood safely; if we can't send our kids to school without worrying they might get shot; if they can't go to the movies without fear of violence lurking in the shadows.

Violence plagues the biggest cities, but it also plagues the smallest towns. It claims the lives of Americans of different ages and different races, and it’s tied together by the fact that these young people had dreams and had futures that were cut tragically short.

Have you had enough?
I’ve had enough of being told that the gun lobby is too important to ignore.
I’ve had enough of closed door deals that give billions of dollars to gun companies when we’re told we are supporting Americans who are simply exercising their 2nd amendment rights.
I’ve had enough of our kids going to schools where they cannot be safe from madmen whose access to guns is just too easy.
Even as we debate government’s role, we have to understand that when a child opens fire on another child, there’s a hole in that child’s heart that government alone can’t fill. It’s up to us, as parents and as neighbors and as teachers and as mentors, to make sure our young people don’t have that void inside them.

And when there is an extraordinarily heartbreaking tragedy like the one we saw in Newtown, again, after Columbine, Aurora, and many others, there's always an outcry immediately after for action. And there’s talk of new reforms, and there’s talk of new legislation. And too often, those efforts are defeated by politics and by lobbying and eventually by the pull of our collective attention elsewhere.

But not anymore.

Today I plan to introduce an executive order that I will believe will reduce gun violence as we know it today by eliminating the availability of these weapons that harm our children. States like California, New York and Illinois have implemented this kind of legislation successfully, taking guns from the hands of criminals to help create a safer environment. These policies have substantially reduced violence as they were implemented in each of those states. These problems can no longer be ignored.
These choices will not be easy, but we can no longer stand for partisan rhetoric and inaction as violence in our schools and workplace continue to escalate.
I believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s and Bushmasters like the one used in the Sandy Hook massacre belong in the hands of soldiers, not in the hands of criminals. That they belong on the battlefield of war, not on the streets of our cities. We should leave no stone unturned and recognize that we have no greater mission as a country than keeping our young people safe.
Beginning 6/1/2013, I have instructed my attorney general to look for ways in every department to implement new policy to reduce or eliminate the availability of guns in our communities. From now on, we will eliminate the ability for criminals to have access to weapons that create massacres such as all the ones we have tragically experienced in recent years. There is no reason why anybody should need an assault weapon to protect themselves or their family.
We will be implanting a safe and reasonable policy that will eliminate all assault weapons in America today. We just simply do not have a need to have these weapons of war in America today. Change is not easy, so working alongside law enforcement, the clergy, schools and first responders, we will be setting up collection points in your local communities to turn these weapons in to help begin the healing of this nation and create a safer place for us all. Going forward, all guns that have a capacity greater than ten rounds will be prohibited. Working with sporting and hunting organizations, gun manufacturers and many others, we believe that by eliminating these assault weapons and guns from the streets of America, we will be able to reduce or eliminate their access in the hands of criminals.
The finer details of implementing these new policies will become available to law enforcement over the next few weeks. I believe that this is a reasonable solution that respects our traditions in this nation for hunters and sportsmen, provides people with the ability for Americans to keep guns in the home for self defense, and still provides sensible restrictions to make our nation safer.

Thank you very much."

Oath Keepers will be mowed over and be considered nostalgics and romantics while Law Enforcement is charged to "keep the peace". The 3% a year pension in the "in crowd" will worship that far more than their 2nd Amendment Rights. There will be no fight, no revolution. Just persecution.

iron cannon
12-17-2012, 11:37 AM
That sounds pretty believable.
Then when all the "assault" rifles are gone and the next mass killings take place with a semi-auto handgun....those will be the next to go.

POLICESTATE
12-17-2012, 11:41 AM
That sounds pretty believable.
Then when all the "assault" rifles are gone and the next mass killings take place with a semi-auto handgun....those will be the next to go.

Some are already calling them assault weapons, it's not about rifles so much as weapons. So expect rifles, shotguns, pistols, and anything else scary to be on the list.

glbtrottr
12-17-2012, 12:04 PM
It's interesting.

Consider the demonization of the Sandy Hook victim, the mom whose guns were used:
*Nancy Lanza portrayed as 'survivalist' who stockpiled food, water and guns
OK, Survivalist=BAD

* Collection of guns included handguns, assault rifle and two hunting rifles

OK, 2 handguns and 3 rifles = A COLLECTION

* Mrs Lanza 'would get very upset that he wouldn’t let her hug him'

OK, Lack of Affection = you're a homicidal mentally ill person

* Friends and family portrayed Adam Lanza’s mother Nancy as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the verge of violent, economic collapse.

OK, Concern of an economic collapse makes you a Paranoid Survivalist.

* She is reported to have been struggling to hold herself together and had been stockpiling food, water and guns in the large home she shared with her 20-year-old son in Connecticut.

OK, Stockpiling food, water and guns means you're trying to hold yourself together.

*Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.

OK, Prepper = BAD

* but made no secret of having an imposing firearm collection (of) two handguns and semi-automatic assault rifle used in the killings but also two traditional hunting rifles.

2 Pistols and 3 rifles is AN IMPOSING FIREARM COLLECTION


* She "never liked people to see inside her house."..."I would ring the bell on the front door and she would come out the side and meet me,’ he said. ‘It was a little weird. It’s stranger now thinking back on what happened.’

OK, Not opening your house to strangers is "A LITTLE WEIRD" as in CREEPY.

MUKAK
12-17-2012, 12:05 PM
Some are already calling them assault weapons, it's not about rifles so much as weapons. So expect rifles, shotguns, pistols, and anything else scary to be on the list.

and then they will try to ban knifes and such... lol

and then ROCKs haha

advocatusdiaboli
12-17-2012, 12:23 PM
*Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.

Also, teaching your children how to handle firearms safely and shoot = obsessed with guns. I guess teaching my daughters to drive means I am obsessed with cars?