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View Full Version : Can NV father buy a gun for CA child?


bottomshot
12-15-2012, 10:22 PM
Question, My dad lives in Vegas can he buy an off roster hand gun and then give it to me? I know some of the family laws are different.

Librarian
12-15-2012, 10:43 PM
Yes - if the gun first goes through a CA FFL. You (the child) may not take possession directly from your father.

See also the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

Grapevine
12-16-2012, 7:01 AM
Whoa! Hold on there just a minute.

Question, My dad lives in Vegas can he buy an off roster hand gun and then give it to me? I know some of the family laws are different.

So you go on the internet to tell the world that you are going to enter into a conspiracy with your father to conduct a "straw" purchase.

I didn't know there was a "familial" exemption to the "straw" purchase laws. Your father can only purchase guns for himself.

Read up on those former No. Cal. leos and straw purchase.

Wiki: Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor.

grapevine

CSACANNONEER
12-16-2012, 7:09 AM
Whoa! Hold on there just a minute.



So you go on the internet to tell the world that you are going to enter into a conspiracy with your father to conduct a "straw" purchase.

I didn't know there was a "familial" exemption to the "straw" purchase laws. Your father can only purchase guns for himself.

Read up on those former No. Cal. leos and straw purchase.

Wiki: Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor.

grapevine


Huh? Hold on just a minute before you look like you are ASSuming facts which have not been provided. Fathers buy gifts for their children all the time. There is NO LAW AGAINST buying a firearm with the express intention of using it as a GIFT for anyone. The only requirements are to follow all state and federal transfer laws. In fact, it's so commonly done that the federal 4473 form has a box to check if the purchase is intended to be a gift.

Grapevine seems to know a little about the law but not enough to understand it completely. He would be correct about the straw purchase thing IF the OP gave funds to his father to purchase the gun in question for him or, if the reason for the purchase was for the son to aquire a firearm which he could not legally get. The second one doesn't apply because, the son could legally aquire the identical off roster gun via a PPT.

Oceanbob
12-16-2012, 7:19 AM
Huh? Hold on just a minute before you look like you are ASSuming facts which have not been provided. Fathers buy gifts for their children all the time. There is NO LAW AGAINST buying a firearm with the express intention of using it as a GIFT for anyone. The only requirements are to follow all state and federal transfer laws. In fact, it's so commonly done that the federal 4473 form has a box to check if the purchase is intended to be a gift.

Grapevine seems to know a little about the law but not enough to understand it completely. He would be correct about the straw purchase thing IF the OP gave funds to his father to purchase the gun in question for him or, if the reason for the purchase was for the son to aquire a firearm which he could not legally get. The second one doesn't apply because, the son could legally aquire the identical off roster gun via a PPT.

This^^^^

It is not a straw purchase for Dad to gift a handgun to his legally eligible Son. My adult daughter who lives in Free Oklahoma buys me legal off roster handguns because she knows that's what I want. :D

As long as the SON has his HSC I see no problem. Buy dad dinner sometime.;)

Grapevine
12-16-2012, 7:50 AM
Grapevine seems to know a little about the law but not enough to understand it completely.

I ain't denying it. I am confused by the - in state - out of state - familial - on list - off list - exemption - no exemption - PPT - LEO - no LEO - straw - not straw, details.

I don't feel bad about throwing up a red flag, tho it's a "false" red flag, because if it cause's even one person (me even) to do more homework, it was worth it.

all the best

grapevine

bottomshot
12-16-2012, 7:51 AM
Thanks guys

taperxz
12-16-2012, 7:55 AM
Whoa! Hold on there just a minute.



So you go on the internet to tell the world that you are going to enter into a conspiracy with your father to conduct a "straw" purchase.

I didn't know there was a "familial" exemption to the "straw" purchase laws. Your father can only purchase guns for himself.

Read up on those former No. Cal. leos and straw purchase.

Wiki: Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor.

grapevine

I ain't denying it. I am confused by the - in state - out of state - familial - on list - off list - exemption - no exemption - PPT - LEO - no LEO - straw - not straw, details.

I don't feel bad about throwing up a red flag, tho it's a "false" red flag, because if it cause's even one person (me even) to do more homework, it was worth it.

all the best

grapevine

Perhaps its best not to start out with accusations of conspiracy theories and straw purchases? Then instead of posting waiting for the correct answer?

CSACANNONEER
12-16-2012, 8:02 AM
I ain't denying it. I am confused by the - in state - out of state - familial - on list - off list - exemption - no exemption - PPT - LEO - no LEO - straw - not straw, details.

I don't feel bad about throwing up a red flag, tho it's a "false" red flag, because if it cause's even one person (me even) to do more homework, it was worth it.

all the best

grapevine

I agree that it was good to bring up the subject. However, you should have done it in the form of a question instead of the way you did. We all make mistakes. Some of us are big enough to openly admit them and learn from them. Other are not. You are obviously part of the first group and I commend you for that!

Clownpuncher
12-16-2012, 8:24 AM
So, if a father (or mother) were to buy a gun out of state for their son/daughter as a Christmas gift and then they bring said gun to put under the California tree for the son/daughter to open Christmas morning they have violated the law?
I thought the son/daughter just had to pay the $19 to register it in Kommiefornia and it was good?
God these laws are so confusing, there's almost no way of not committing a felony.

G-forceJunkie
12-16-2012, 8:52 AM
From the horses mouth, page 165.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
Note this is Federal as to aquiring firearms. As to shipping/gifting firearms across state lines, transport laws apply (it must go through an FFL.)

15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases from licensees by persons who use a “straw purchaser” (another person) to acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a resident of a State other than that in which the licensee’s business premises is located.

Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee. In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser’s residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the licensee’s business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the licensee.

An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the making of false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form 4473.

The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the dealer’s records.

Quiet
12-16-2012, 8:55 AM
So, if a father (or mother) were to buy a gun out of state for their son/daughter as a Christmas gift and then they bring said gun to put under the California tree for the son/daughter to open Christmas morning they have violated the law?
I thought the son/daughter just had to pay the $19 to register it in Kommiefornia and it was good?
God these laws are so confusing, there's almost no way of not committing a felony.

Yes, the parent would have violated Federal laws.

Since 1968, Federal laws prohibit the transfer of firearms between residents of different states unless the transfer is done through a FFL dealer in the recipiant's state of residence. There is no gift exemption to these Federal laws.

So, in order for a non-resident grandparent/parent/child/grandchild to legally gift a firearm to a resident grandparent/parent/child/grandchild that firearm must be transferred through a FFL dealer.

Same Federal laws; allows a CA resident to purchase a firearm in another state but they can not legally take possession of it, until it is transferred to them through a CA FFL dealer.

pat4wd
12-16-2012, 11:02 AM
So it appears the very first response was the correct one

tbhracing
12-16-2012, 11:04 AM
Interesting read.

dieselpower
12-16-2012, 11:11 AM
we have had this fight before and Kes threatened to ban me for it. I will simply say, there is no ATF ruling that supports a father or mother buying a firearm for a child is a straw purchase...NONE. Its done every year x10000000 when children receive firearms for Christmas.

While all the elements to an illegal act are present, the act in reality is not illegal.

A straw purchase is when people set out to defraud the system, NOT work within the system.

pHredd9mm
12-16-2012, 11:33 AM
The only way for a new LEO or security officer (private) that is under the age of 21 to get a privately owned sidearm is for a parent (maybe a grandparent) to buy one and then gift it to their child. Happens all the time. Don't legality of child paying parent back for the firearm!?!?

cruising7388
12-16-2012, 11:48 AM
So it appears the very first response was the correct one

If it comes from Librarian, you can take it to the bank.

Librarian
12-16-2012, 1:09 PM
we have had this fight before and Kes threatened to ban me for it. I will simply say, there is no ATF ruling that supports a father or mother buying a firearm for a child is a straw purchase...NONE. Its done every year x10000000 when children receive firearms for Christmas.

While all the elements to an illegal act are present, the act in reality is not illegal.

A straw purchase is when people set out to defraud the system, NOT work within the system.

There is a distinction you are not including.

A GIFT is perfectly legal.

Using the child's (or other person's) money to buy the gun is NOT, because one commits a federal felony by answering the Form 4473 question 11a 'yes'. Lying on the 4473 is not working within the (admittedly bizarre) system.

See the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Straw_Purchase

CSACANNONEER
12-16-2012, 1:09 PM
The only way for a new LEO or security officer (private) that is under the age of 21 to get a privately owned sidearm is for a parent (maybe a grandparent) to buy one and then gift it to their child. Happens all the time. Don't legality of child paying parent back for the firearm!?!?

No, there are other ways for a person under 21 to legally own a handgun while living in CA. He/she could manufacture their own which isn't as unheard of as it may sound. No HSC is needed since it would not be being transfered. Or, someone could legally buy one FTF while a resident of another state and bring it with him/her when moving to CA. Again, this occures on a fairly regular basis and no HSC is needed. A third way would be for a department to issue a department owned handgun to the person. This happened when my cousin was first employed as a LEO at the age of 20. She already had a 4 year degree, had gone through the city's academy and had done some house sitting for the chief (which is how she became interested in LE work in the first place). I'm sure there are other examples out there as well.

bottomshot
12-16-2012, 8:21 PM
Ok I talked to a guy at ammo bro today and said they could not receive an off list firearm even if it was from father to son, does he just not know the law?

Librarian
12-16-2012, 8:43 PM
Ok I talked to a guy at ammo bro today and said they could not receive an off list firearm even if it was from father to son, does he just not know the law?

If he understood what you were asking, yes, he seems unaware that intrafamilial transfer, even interstate, are exempt from the Roster.

ZigZags
12-17-2012, 8:39 AM
Whoa! Hold on there just a minute.



So you go on the internet to tell the world that you are going to enter into a conspiracy with your father to conduct a "straw" purchase.

I didn't know there was a "familial" exemption to the "straw" purchase laws. Your father can only purchase guns for himself.

Read up on those former No. Cal. leos and straw purchase.

Wiki: Straw purchases are a felony violation of the Gun Control Act of 1968 for both the straw purchaser (who can be charged with lying on Federal Form 4473) and the actual possessor.

grapevine

Calm down GrapeVine. My Oregon grandfather has purchased non CA list handguns for me and had them legally transferred to me. The law permits parents or grandparents to gift non CA compliant handguns to children/grandchildren.

bottomshot
12-26-2012, 10:04 PM
ok so a new curious question could my father give me his 50 BMG???? Or is this going to far :)

bottomshot
12-26-2012, 10:04 PM
ok so a new curious question could my father give me his 50 BMG???? Or is this going to far :)

ke6guj
12-26-2012, 10:17 PM
ok so a new curious question could my father give me his 50 BMG???? Or is this going to far :)

it is illegal to transfer a .50BMG rifle in CA after 2004.

carrywisely_ca
12-26-2012, 10:24 PM
Question, My dad lives in Vegas can he buy an off roster hand gun and then give it to me? I know some of the family laws are different.

Yes, provided you father is capable of legal purchase in that state. To bring a pistol into CA for transfer the pistol will need magazines with 10rd limits, even if others are also transferred. Generally and FFL transfer is necessary for ppt, but there is a form for familial gifts.
Stop by any FFL and tell them that you have a gift pistol that you want to register, or go to the sheriff's office.

As mentioned, there is some "stickiness" with getting a pistol that is off roster, but that assumes that there is some malicious or nefarious intent with the gift. Enjoy.

Ron-Solo
12-26-2012, 10:30 PM
I have purchased handguns and given them to all three of my children as gifts, including off roster pistols such as the LCP and LC9 before it got on the roster.

It is not a straw purchase.

Ron-Solo
12-26-2012, 10:33 PM
Yes, provided you father is capable of legal purchase in that state. To bring a pistol into CA for transfer the pistol will need magazines with 10rd limits, even if others are also transferred. Generally and FFL transfer is necessary for ppt, but there is a form for familial gifts.
Stop by any FFL and tell them that you have a gift pistol that you want to register, or go to the sheriff's office.

As mentioned, there is some "stickiness" with getting a pistol that is off roster, but that assumes that there is some malicious or nefarious intent with the gift. Enjoy.

Welcome to CalGuns, but the info you provided is not correct, so maybe you shouldn't be telling people to "just answer the question" since you are off course.

Librarian
12-26-2012, 10:47 PM
Yes, provided you father is capable of legal purchase in that state. To bring a pistol into CA for transfer the pistol will need magazines with 10rd limits, even if others are also transferred. Generally and FFL transfer is necessary for ppt, but there is a form for familial gifts.
Stop by any FFL and tell them that you have a gift pistol that you want to register, or go to the sheriff's office.

As mentioned, there is some "stickiness" with getting a pistol that is off roster, but that assumes that there is some malicious or nefarious intent with the gift. Enjoy.

Work at a gun store, do you?

Sorry, low blow. But bad information all the same.

See the Calguns Foundation Wiki articles on

Intrafamilial transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members

Interstate transfer - http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_firearms_Interstate

SMClurker
12-26-2012, 10:58 PM
Not to hijack the thread but what about if it were a step parent, that was involved in the child's life since birth?

Librarian
12-26-2012, 11:17 PM
Not to hijack the thread but what about if it were a step parent, that was involved in the child's life since birth?

Please read the wiki articles. Summary: step-parents seem to be excluded.