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View Full Version : Just curious, how many have to die before we change our minds???


jdmcgee
12-14-2012, 1:14 PM
That title was to rope you in but it was also to make a point. These are like the statements that are made daily by anti-gun groups.

With another tragic mass shooting happening today we as proponents of the 2nd Amendment & all civil rights will undoubtedly come under fire. So we have to ask ourselves how we can change what causes these tragedies without it adversely affecting our rights to defend self, family and country.

I have a few ideas:

1) We have to look at what causes these horrible actions... Simply put, mentally unstable criminals cause these tragedies. I don't want to sound like a broken record or make statements that are cliche but here I go anyway, Guns don't kill people, people do. We all know this to be true but convincing people with anti-gun views isn't easy. A firearm is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. This tool, just like any other, can be used for good or evil. If an insane, homicidal person gets a hold of a hammer, he'll probably kill you with it. So, there's a couple of ways to address this specific point. Truly mentally insane people more than likely don't know that the thoughts they have are insane thoughts. Is this something that most of us can personally attempt to fix? No. I, like most, don't personally have the skills to treat a mentally ill person. All we can do is look for, and I hate this term as much as most of you do, the warning signs of mental illness & do whatever we can to get that person the help he or she needs. All of us, as members of the human race, should feel somewhat responsible for helping, to the best of our ability, our brothers & sisters that are on this planet with us. If we help more people in any & every way we can, the world will be a better place. Now we need to just change people's views on guns... which brings me to my second point.


2) How do we change the anti-gun groups' views about the "evil" guns & their owners? That's the million dollar question, isn't it? It's a fact that we are a product of our environment, meaning, we only learn or know what we are exposed to by either our own curiosities or whatever is shoved down our throats by parents, schools, news media, etc. Are we as legal, non-criminal gun owners represented in the public eye properly? I think the answer all of us would give is an unabashed HELL NO! So that leads to the question "who's fault is it that we aren't represented corectly?" Before you answer that question, think real hard... The answer is Da-Ding: It's my fault, it's your fault, it's your shooting buddy's fault. That's right, it's all of our faults. Ask yourself, what I did I do today & everyday to show anyone & everyone that I am a responsible gun owner that doesn't use my guns for illegal or homicidal acts... not only that, let everyone know that as a legal gun owner you won't stand for anyone who uses any weapon for murder or any illegal purposes. Most people want to blame someone else for the way guns are viewed but if we all took the steps above there would be far fewer problems. Those people that play the blame game for firearms in the public eye brings me to my third point.

3) Far too many people are quick to point out that it's the anti-gun media's fault that we, as legal, non-criminal gun owners aren't represented properly in the public eye. I have news for you, other than NPR, PBS & small, low-wattage community radio stations, nearly all other forms of broadcast media are FOR PROFIT businesses. What that means is that we pay these media organizations to deliver whatever information they deliver to us through advertiser dollars, subscription fees or both. So, if you watch or read a media organization's information than you are essentially paying them to give you information that you may find inaccurate or a blatant lie. This also applies to advertisers that use the media that you disagree with. Everytime you buy a product who's parent company advertises in media that you disagree with, you are blindly showing support to every entity involved before it gets to you. Basically, if you don't like what they stand for, don't pay them. I made this point in another thread & was told by FastFinger (who has over 2 decades working in TV) that this as a tactic wouldn't help due to the fact that the "guns are evil" goes so far up & that they are personal views of the higher ups. Someone who has ever lost a job can affirm that NO ONE IS IRREPLACEABLE. From the CEO to the the mail room, if you or your personal views cost your owner or stock holders money, you can & will lose your job. So, if you don't like a person or business' views, don't pay them. This section about the media brings me to my fourth point.

4) Countless mental health professionals have urged the news media to STOP GLAMOURIZING the tragic shootings by giving them 24/7 coverage. Of course, to a sane person, these images & words on the news about mass shootings aren't glamorous in the slightest but to the menatally ill, who are already possibly on the edge of homocide or suicide, it's hard to tell how they will use the information presented to them. Many, many psychiatrists & psychologists state that this much news coverage of any massacre or disaster does nothing more than fuel the violent & mentally unstable. It's proven that even sane people can have negative mental effects from such a bombardment of horrific acts. Does this 24/7 loop of information impact sane people's anti-gun views? YES! With no doubt, they definitely do. If you have never been personally exposed to the joy of & need for firearms, like a large percentage of our society, and you are repeatedly given terms for the criminals that translate negatively to guns or legal gun users like "Assault Weapon, Shooter, Armed Gunman, Gun Crime or Arsenal" than that's all you have to go off of... If you're only exposure to something is how evil it is you can never think of it in a different light. Refer to point # 3 on how to fix this...

Ultimately, it is up to us, the readers of this post, to remedy these things!

A short recap of my 4 points:

1) Learn the signs of mental illness & urge that person to get help or if you sincerely feel that person is a danger to themselves or others, TAKE ACTION IMMEDIATELY! It's proven time & time again that if nothing is done by the observer of mental illness than something irreversable will be done by the sufferer of mental illness.

2) We as proponents of the 2nd Amenment & all civil rights have to put a more public face on the legal gun owners of USA. As it is right now, we get either NO public attention that paints us postively or when we are getting public attention, we are only defending ourselves & our rights. Always remember, you can never score if you are always only on defense. We need to take more of a pro-active approach with our public image as gun owners, now more than ever. With every gun related tragedy that is commited more & more people reach their personal opinions on guns. Most people that come to those opinions after a tragedy are not going to have PRO-2A opinions.

3) This one is short... If you don't like what a specific media branch has to say, DO NOT SUPPORT THEM FINANCIALLY OR THEIR ADVERTISERS AND LET THEM KNOW WHY YOU WILL NO LONGER SUPPORT THEM.

4) This one ties into solution number 3. If you're not willing to give up your favorite show on NBC after the Costas statements or your favorite laundry detergent because they advertise on 30 Rock than at least let your local, regional & national news that you DO NOT like the glamourization or sensationalism of such horrible acts like a mass shooting in the name of ratings & dollars.

Thanks for reading,

JDMcGee

Laythor
12-14-2012, 1:25 PM
TL;DR

With the economy about to bork itself in a few weeks this new round of gun hysteria will run it's course and then be over shadowed by the fiscal melt down.

So ride this latest wave before it gets pushed off the front page.
FWIW, nothing new will be done to gun control because of this tragedy.

jdmcgee
12-14-2012, 1:41 PM
TL;DR

With the economy about to bork itself in a few weeks this new round of gun hysteria will run it's course and then be over shadowed by the fiscal melt down.

So ride this latest wave before it gets pushed off the front page.
FWIW, nothing new will be done to gun control because of this tragedy.

I wholeheartedly agree that nothing will be done about gun control in the short term directly relating to this event... but, if we don't get to the root of the problem of these shootings than far too many people will die for nothing.

If we want to end the even remote possibility of having our 2A taken away in the future we have to let everyone know that guns don't equal criminals. Ask any policeman that has had his life saved due to dropping the criminal before he got dropped.

akira
12-14-2012, 1:50 PM
its the media's fault these shooting occur.
this is the main reason these shooting happen.

watch this video, spread it, please!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded

Jason_2111
12-14-2012, 1:50 PM
You give some good arguments, but a little perspective is in order.
As shocking and horrible as these events are, they are eclipsed DAILY by things like drunk drivers. Gun incidents have more WOW value, and with kids involved, it has a double gut punch emotional impact.

Criminals, crazy people, evil people... we'll always have them until we can figure out a way to get rid of them, or get them at the very least, sequestered out of society.

Jason_2111
12-14-2012, 1:53 PM
its the media's fault these shooting occur.
this is the main reason these shooting happen.

watch this video, spread it, please!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded

PezlFNTGWv4

akira
12-14-2012, 1:55 PM
our kids are not worth ratings!!!

the media must be stopped!!!

reidnez
12-14-2012, 2:02 PM
I don't know that there is a solution, and I'm OK with saying that (though it is certainly worth exploring). We are unique as creatures in our capacity both for compassion and wanton violence. Sadly, our technology greatly enables the latter (but does not cause it.)

People will talk about better mental health care...OK, but what does that mean exactly? I assume that the citizens of every other country have the same mental health issues that we do, but their rates of gun violence are significantly lower--even when their access to guns and rates of gun ownership are comparable--such as in Israel and Switzerland. What are they doing differently in the area of mental health?

I don't think it does us any good as gun owners to downplay something like this, and assert that it is "rare" or "statistically insignificant." It sure wouldn't be insignificant if that were your kid, would it? I think we are conditioned to respond that way, because the discussion almost inevitably jumps straight to legislation. But these things should not happen, and we'd all like them not to happen, and it is worth having a discussion about it. You can't just dismiss these things as the products of crazy outliers...somehow, they are a product of our society and we need to take a look at why that is.

readysetgo
12-14-2012, 2:05 PM
That title was to rope you in but it was also to make a point.

I've got some idea what you can do with your rope, but I'll refrain. :rolleyes:

akira
12-14-2012, 2:07 PM
the solution is simple to stop this from happening, watch the movie!!!
reduce media coverage of these events, stop placing so much attention to these scum bags who crave attention.

Watch the movie!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded

mikestesting
12-14-2012, 2:10 PM
I know nothing can be done to prevent this problem. The day all of us accept it is the day we can go on living our lives. It's a terrible thing to happen, I know; I'm not downplaying the death of those children. But it still could not have been prevented.

People, in general, like to think they are in control of their world. We want weather prediction; we want financial predictions; we want our car to start when we turn the key in the morning; we want our children safe at school; we want our air conditioning to turn on when the temperature outside hits 100 degrees.

The day one of the above doesn't happen, people freak out and want something done so it doesn't happen again. But the problem with that thinking is that it WILL happen again. Your car will break down at one point no matter how much you maintain it; your A/C will go out; it will rain when the weatherman says it won't; and unfortunately, a child will be shot at school. It's the sick and twisted world we live in.

The only thing to do is to educate people that we don't live in a world that we can control, only a world that we can influence, with limited success. But in a nation full of people who only care about Black Friday and what new smartphone is coming out next, do you really think that will happen? I consider myself one of the few that knows the answer is "no".

HowardW56
12-14-2012, 2:16 PM
Mass death & injuries aren't new Daniel Lee Young (http://articles.latimes.com/1985-03-23/local/me-21124_1_maximum-sentence).

Mental illness isn't either, but it is a commpon thread...

the86d
12-14-2012, 2:17 PM
the solution is simple to stop this from happening, watch the movie!!!
reduce media coverage of these events, stop placing so much attention to these scum bags who crave attention.
...Watch the movie!!!...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded
Good thing guns were banned at the time of the shooting in the UK...

They NEED to stop giving these scumbags attention, as that is what they want!
------------------------
It is sad that Liberals think bans will solve anything. Gun-free School-zone leave people defenseless. If some CCW packing non-lib-tard teachers were able to help, I am sure they would have. Defenseless-victims, this is proof.

I got a TXT from the ex-wife, and she is NOW slated to buy her home (self) at least one firearm, and she is in the more free-state of AZ, after hearing of the tragedy. I hope many more follow suit, so we can combat this type of evil.

paul0660
12-14-2012, 2:18 PM
Shorter posts might change my mind.

frankm
12-14-2012, 2:20 PM
How many must die before you let sane people defend themselves and children.

TreeHugger
12-14-2012, 2:25 PM
I'm sure you all agree it's not the tool that kills. Heck, the crazy SOB could've easily drove a 4x4 into the school yard during recess and mowed them all down. Like others have stated, it's the anti gun people and media that makes gun the cause of these killings.

I have a 5 yr old son in elementary, I just cannot imagine something like this happening at his school. If it did, I would not blame it on guns though.

RIP for those poor kids and adults & their families who were killed by that wacko, hopefully he will rot in his afterlife and I hope there is one, so that he can suffer, just dying and nothing else is too easy for him.

truthseeker
12-14-2012, 3:15 PM
Society is turning to crap, because more people now have the motto "if it feels good do it".

They have lost all morals and believe that there is nothing after death.

The more people that believe "you only live once" so smoke, kill, eat, do whatever you want, the worse society is going to become.

Really sad that people believe they won't have to answer for their indiscretions here on earth.

Guntech
12-14-2012, 3:30 PM
Society is turning to crap, because more people now have the motto "if it feels good do it".

They have lost all morals and believe that there is nothing after death.

The more people that believe "you only live once" so smoke, kill, eat, do whatever you want, the worse society is going to become.

Really sad that people believe they won't have to answer for their indiscretions here on earth.

Your statement is pretty right on as far as society falling apart and your right its going to get a whole helluva lot worse. Unfortunately Some people in a certain part of the world who do believe they will have to answer for what they do in this life believe that means kill the infidels(me and you). So the world has a lot of *** holes to get rid of, and especially high concentrations of em in the "*** hole of the earth". But thats another topic for another time.

wash
12-14-2012, 4:02 PM
With limited information, it's impossible to do anything but speculate about the cause of this tragedy.

My wild speculation is that poor parenting is a likely cause and there are some scary implications to that.

What ever the cause, making sure that only criminals have guns is not the solution.

Laythor
12-14-2012, 4:10 PM
man has been killing one another long before mass media.

there is no way to stop these things from happening, just limit how much damage is done.

concealed carry, better evacuation training, proper steps taken for people who are found to be a danger to themselves and others... all of these things need to be done in conjunction to see any noticeable drop in mass violence.

But not to worry, that won't happen.

Fingers will be pointed, people will be blamed, jimmies will be rustled.. . and nothing meaningful will change.

bgoldber
12-14-2012, 4:13 PM
Society is turning to crap, because more people now have the motto "if it feels good do it".

They have lost all morals and believe that there is nothing after death.

The more people that believe "you only live once" so smoke, kill, eat, do whatever you want, the worse society is going to become.

Really sad that people believe they won't have to answer for their indiscretions here on earth.

I agree with what the OP is saying. Your statement however makes my blood boil. I am a democrat and an atheist, and everything you said here are to me what the problem with everyone seems to be.

There are too many people who think that they can do whatever they want now, and when they die some magical almighty will whisper "I know you feel bad about all those things you did, so you can chill with me for all eternity." I don't believe that anything happens after you die, so it is of the utmost importance to make a positive impact on the world while i'm living it. All these people lording their beliefs in a magical unknown, feeling superior to everyone else because some thousand year old fairy tale says they're special. Do you know how many people the Catholics killed and tortured because of their belief in the "wrong" invisible father? Every day people are persecuted and even killed because of religion. What will you do if you find out this guy killed all these children because god told him to? How dare you assume that a lack of faith in "your personal belief structure" is what caused this tragedy.

Why do you own guns? What government are you going to stop, its insanity to think you could do anything to prevent them from taking your guns away with your guns! I own guns because I like them, I don't hunt, i'm not a cop or a soldier. By your logic there are millions of people like me who shouldn't get to have them because
more people now have the motto "if it feels good do it".

I see a tragedy like this, and it's people who are unwilling to compromise that I blame.

five.five-six
12-14-2012, 4:16 PM
I am waiting to see what Piers Morgan has to say about this befor I decide what to think.

five.five-six
12-14-2012, 4:17 PM
I am waiting to see what Piers Morgan has to say about this before I decide what to think.

dixieD
12-14-2012, 4:19 PM
The other common phrase is if banning guns save one innocent life then it is worth it.

I counter with if access to a firearm saves one life from a predator then it is worth it. Ask the 12-year-old girl here if she thinks firearms should be available or not.

gePA4fwlESw

MrEd
12-14-2012, 4:55 PM
As we as gun owners share in the sorrow and grieve for the victims , we also do not have near enough informations to fathom what actually happened and while We condemn the perpetrator's action , we also are aware that this tragedy as horrible as it might be is not a gun issue but a crime issue .

As things stand at the moment there seems to be a string of failures that have lead to this atrocity , the gun in the end was just the tool this criminal chose to perpetrate his sick plan .
However at this time I for one choose to focus on the innocent victims and say a silent prayer for them and their families . I will wait for all the facts are found before I pass judgement on what this means other then a horrible act .

Guntech
12-14-2012, 5:05 PM
I agree with what the OP is saying. Your statement however makes my blood boil. I am a democrat and an atheist, and everything you said here are to me what the problem with everyone seems to be.

There are too many people who think that they can do whatever they want now, and when they die some magical almighty will whisper "I know you feel bad about all those things you did, so you can chill with me for all eternity." I don't believe that anything happens after you die, so it is of the utmost importance to make a positive impact on the world while i'm living it. All these people lording their beliefs in a magical unknown, feeling superior to everyone else because some thousand year old fairy tale says they're special. Do you know how many people the Catholics killed and tortured because of their belief in the "wrong" invisible father? Every day people are persecuted and even killed because of religion. What will you do if you find out this guy killed all these children because god told him to? How dare you assume that a lack of faith in "your personal belief structure" is what caused this tragedy.

Why do you own guns? What government are you going to stop, its insanity to think you could do anything to prevent them from taking your guns away with your guns! I own guns because I like them, I don't hunt, i'm not a cop or a soldier. By your logic there are millions of people like me who shouldn't get to have them because


I see a tragedy like this, and it's people who are unwilling to compromise that I blame.


Lets not start flaming others religious views or non religious views, unless they want to kill us, in that case flame on!

Wild Squid
12-14-2012, 5:52 PM
"Just curious, how many have to die before we change our minds???"

Down to the very last man, woman, and child. And dog too.

lt05deluxe
12-14-2012, 5:52 PM
How about banning media and cameras instead of banning guns? Switzerland and Canada have way more guns per capita but their murder rate is way lower. Its because of the media.

manuelcardenas77
12-14-2012, 5:57 PM
Because of the media? Wtf???? Man that's a lame as blamming video games... Wow oh wait it's calguns... The same place where the majority said Romney was going to win...

manuelcardenas77
12-14-2012, 5:58 PM
Oh wait I forgot one thing... Bahahha bahahha
Bahbajaha
Thanks for the laughs guys

LMT4ME
12-14-2012, 6:07 PM
The real tradegy is that if we trained the people who are responsible for our children for about 1/3 of day in the art of personnel protection, specifically intensive training in the use of handguns., then this disaster may have been stopped or at least lessened. Similar assessments have been made with respect to 9/11 pertaining to pilots being trained and armed. It seems to me when one or two individuals are responsible for the safety of 30 children or 100 passengers then having them armed and most importantly trained in the art of gun fighting makes sense. Too bad our society is so clueless.

OIFVet03
12-14-2012, 6:15 PM
It is a screwed up world and man has been killing man since we first appeared on this rock. It will keep happening. That is why we need to defend ourselves against it so the threat can be stopped and lives can be saved.

HowardW56
12-14-2012, 6:15 PM
http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt321/HowardW56/israelteacher_zps23c98fb4.jpg

skyscraper
12-14-2012, 6:19 PM
If there's one thing we can learn from history, it's that you aren't going to change their minds, and they aren't going to change yours.

It will be determined by vote.

bubbapug1
12-14-2012, 6:28 PM
I think we are all a bit premature to determine what went wrong here. The shooter was definitely disturbed. Was it because of his parents divorce? His Mom spending more time on her class than he got? Was he just a violent type who had anger issues?

No one knows.

And how would you defend against this attack? he drove his Mom's car to the school and presumably could have talked his way into her class room had he needed to....Even if the teacher had been armed he would have still been able to dispatch her and than do his dirty work.

This was a tough one. Who knew the guy was ready to blow? And how do you really know someone is capable of executing a class full of kids...you don't, because it hasn't happened before in such a way. No one could have anticipated this happening except maybe his mom.

Warrior King
12-14-2012, 6:37 PM
A new debate about gun rights is on due to this tragedy. Just a fact that Bloomberg and others are jumping on this...

Fear is not a good tactic to use to protect gun rights. Arguments based on fear of crime, and other people will backfire. The gun lobby, and gun manufacturers, security etc. have been the biggest fear mongering groups out there for decades.

The problem with fear based propaganda is that once there is this perception of fear, and pervasive crime, and danger it creates a climate where everything is feared including any guns or gun owners in general, not just criminals with guns. In a fear based climate any gun owner is a potential criminal or wacko.

A better strategy is to emphasize that normal people go about exercising their 2nd amendment rights without hurting anyone, just as the majority of people drive cars, or drink alcohol, or do other things that responsible adults are allowed to do.

The gun lobby and gun owners should be in the lead in terms of shifting the argument towards putting more resources towards mental health screening, and keeping guns out of the hands of people with known mental health issues, rather than creating more burdensome laws and regulations and moving towards a European style or California style kill gun ownership through regulation.

wjc
12-14-2012, 6:42 PM
Just an interesting tidbit to throw out there.

I was watching Lou Dobbs just now and he had a graphic up.

20 Democratic Congressman called for gun control

0 Congressman brought up mental health.

Clearly, there is a lack of interest in looking at the root cause.

speedrrracer
12-14-2012, 7:00 PM
Just an interesting tidbit to throw out there.

I was watching Lou Dobbs just now and he had a graphic up.

20 Democratic Congressman called for gun control

0 Congressman brought up mental health.

Clearly, there is a lack of interest in looking at the root cause.

Quick-and-easy is the American way. Give me a pill, doc. Fast food. One-stop-shopping.

No one has the guts to face hard problems. We're too weak as a people. Instead, Democrats will blame guns and pass a quickie law named after some girl and move on to claiming credit so they can get re-elected.

Plus, doing research on mental health costs money. Republicans won't allow that -- only spending on the military and giving money to rich bankers is allowed. They also don't believe in research -- too many damn liberal hippy professors with all that academic mumbo-jumbo.

So neither side will ever do anything to help solve the problem. Ergo, it will continue forever.

bohoki
12-14-2012, 7:01 PM
evil exists people seem to be in denial about that claiming a civilized society doesn't need guns well i say as long as evil exists

banning the tools that good uses to fight evil will not prevent evil

wjc
12-14-2012, 7:03 PM
Quick-and-easy is the American way. Give me a pill, doc. Fast food. One-stop-shopping.

No one has the guts to face hard problems. We're too weak as a people. Instead, Democrats will blame guns and pass a quickie law named after some girl and move on to claiming credit so they can get re-elected.

Plus, doing research on mental health costs money. Republicans won't allow that -- only spending on the military and giving money to rich bankers is allowed. They also don't believe in research -- too many damn liberal hippy professors with all that academic mumbo-jumbo.

So neither side will ever do anything to help solve the problem. Ergo, it will continue forever.

Agree completely

obiwan
12-14-2012, 7:05 PM
Turn it around on them, bait them into saying it is all about our kids safety then drop this on them;

In 2009, 784,507 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 48 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2009 was 15.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years and the abortion ratio was 227 abortions per 1,000 live births.

Far more children die at the hands of their mothers than by firearms each year

SilverTauron
12-14-2012, 7:15 PM
Just an interesting tidbit to throw out there.

I was watching Lou Dobbs just now and he had a graphic up.

20 Democratic Congressman called for gun control

0 Congressman brought up mental health.

Clearly, there is a lack of interest in looking at the root cause.

Getting to the Route Cause requires application of intellect. This poses a problem when you don't have an intellect to apply, a problem quite common among the American electorate.

While arming our teachers responsibly is a right call to make,by that point the die was already cast. The REAL place of prevention was in the family home, where he shot his mother dead before going on the rampage. As someone whose personally experienced a family member making an attempt on my life, let me just say that even the most high speed low drag among us aren't prepared for their closest loved ones turning native. Nevertheless it happens, and sadly quite frequently, as the recent NFL incident and this despicable mess in CT illustrate. One of the NCOs I worked with in the Air Force deployed twice to Iraq and came back unscathed each time, only to die by the hand of his psychotic wife stateside on a Friday night.

My advice to you guys, take a stiff drink and ask yourself if you're prepared to take the life of your mother, father, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband, or best friend in self defense. If one day you wake up next to the love of your life and they're a clear threat to you and society at large, are you capable of blowing their lights out ? We spend all sorts of time drilling for an anonymous bad guy attacking from the bushes, without realizing that we may literally be sleeping next to our attacker every night.

0nTarg3t
12-14-2012, 7:20 PM
I agree with what the OP is saying. Your statement however makes my blood boil. I am a democrat and an atheist, and everything you said here are to me what the problem with everyone seems to be.

There are too many people who think that they can do whatever they want now, and when they die some magical almighty will whisper "I know you feel bad about all those things you did, so you can chill with me for all eternity." I don't believe that anything happens after you die, so it is of the utmost importance to make a positive impact on the world while i'm living it. All these people lording their beliefs in a magical unknown, feeling superior to everyone else because some thousand year old fairy tale says they're special. Do you know how many people the Catholics killed and tortured because of their belief in the "wrong" invisible father? Every day people are persecuted and even killed because of religion. What will you do if you find out this guy killed all these children because god told him to? How dare you assume that a lack of faith in "your personal belief structure" is what caused this tragedy.

Why do you own guns? What government are you going to stop, its insanity to think you could do anything to prevent them from taking your guns away with your guns! I own guns because I like them, I don't hunt, i'm not a cop or a soldier. By your logic there are millions of people like me who shouldn't get to have them because


I see a tragedy like this, and it's people who are unwilling to compromise that I blame.


so you go and do the same thing that makes your blood boil to believers by your posting of fairy tails and such. getting even eh brilliant reply:facepalm:

Laythor
12-14-2012, 7:27 PM
http://i.imgur.com/VXwHX.jpg

WantsToShootStuff
12-14-2012, 7:27 PM
just curious will this affect me purchasing a rifle? im n butte county n i thought the point of hand gun safety was to try n prevent this were the guns even his or stolen cause the shooter looks 15

WantsToShootStuff
12-14-2012, 7:27 PM
just curious will this affect me purchasing a rifle? im n butte county n i thought the point of hand gun safety was to try n prevent this were the guns even his or stolen cause the shooter looks 15

WantsToShootStuff
12-14-2012, 7:28 PM
just curious will this affect me purchasing a rifle? im n butte county n i thought the point of hand gun safety was to try n prevent this were the guns even his or stolen cause the shooter looks 15

WantsToShootStuff
12-14-2012, 7:29 PM
idk y it multi posted

WantsToShootStuff
12-14-2012, 7:29 PM
idk y it multi posted

downfall
12-14-2012, 7:46 PM
what is the bill of rights worth? is it worth the death of innocent children? what would you pay for freedom of speech and the right to defend yourself?

stix213
12-14-2012, 7:56 PM
Without looking at mental health, we'll never get real solutions.

Michael Savage on his radio show, who is probably the least pro-gun out of the top right side talk show hosts, did bring up an interesting solution in his opinion. He suggested banning possession of guns by those on psychiatric medications.

I can't say I fully agree with that, because in part it would keep gun owners from seeking mental help, but I found it refreshing to hear someone actually propose a solution that targets mental health rather than the general law abiding gun owner. We need more thinking along these lines.

G-Man WC
12-14-2012, 8:01 PM
A sad and senseless tragedy. The local bay area media is reporting that police will be patrolling bay area schools...WTF?
They would have you believe that the gun crazed apocalypse is upon us and everyones at risk of copy cat prozac induced killings!
The bottem feeders in the media and Washington will now be using the blood of children from today as the end game of ownership.
I don't trust the current administration. There's no evil scheme they wouldn't concoct! No depravity they wouldn't commit. The timing of this just smells bad.
Prayers for the children and families. -g

Dinosaur Jr
12-14-2012, 8:56 PM
Words can not express my deep compassion for those families. I've already heard a couple of reports that this young man was mentally challenged in some way. Tragic and sad. However, I stand by my belief that "people kill people" and once determined, will use any means at hand, including plenty of everyday items you may not normally consider a weapon.

battleship
12-14-2012, 9:07 PM
Until mental illness is met head on in a real way that isolates individuals and treats them this will always be an on going problem, trouble is that its a dirty word and not many people want to really address it at the upper levels of government. To expensive to implement and maintain, and my offspring just are not capable of doing that attitude.

daveblandston6
12-14-2012, 9:18 PM
A military psychologist named Dave Grossman has studied mass murders at schools and elsewhere. His findings are astounding. I attended a lecture by Grossman recently and he spent quite a bit of time discussing this type of killer. I highly recommend Grossman's book "On Killing," in which he devotes the last section to societal causes of the explosion of violence in America and worldwide. Also, he has written a book called "Stop Teaching our Kids to Kill" (which I have not yet read) that's devoted to this topic.

cHaOs ReX
12-14-2012, 9:25 PM
We spend all sorts of time drilling for an anonymous bad guy attacking from the bushes, without realizing that we may literally be sleeping next to our attacker every night.

But isn't this in and of itself a huge problem? After this days heinous occurrence I thought to myself, do I know anyone who I feel is a danger to others? If I did know someone I thought was a danger to others what would I do?

I'd reach out to them. I'd reach out to that persons friends and family or whoever I felt I needed to.

But I'm not a person who's been physically attacked by a friend or loved one. I do know people who've had someone very close commit suicide and they say they didn't see that coming.

Is it true that they didn't see it coming or did they ignore it? Both possibilities are scary prospects.

BrokerB
12-14-2012, 9:27 PM
The all time mass murderer used bombs at school . He looked to have lit his stepmom on fire with cooking oil, then threw water on her which spread the burning oil.
20+ years later he levels his farm and a school with dynamite . Then drives his truck to the school after it blew up and detonate his own truck bomb .

Mental cases area tough job . We are lucky these current mental case killers aren't smart enough to do more damage just as easy and easier

1927 school bombing wikilinks has good write up .

On the morning of May 18, Kehoe murdered his wife by beating her to death, then set his farm buildings afire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many schoolchildren. He used a detonator to ignite*dynamite*and hundreds of pounds of*pyrotol*which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his*shrapnel-filled vehicle with his Winchester rifle, killing himself and theschool superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During rescue efforts searchers discovered an additional 500*pounds (230*kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the*basement*of the school's south wing. Kehoe apparently had intended to blow up and destroy the whole school.

Anchors
12-14-2012, 9:50 PM
Worst school killing in U.S. History was 85 years ago and used explosives.

No one cares. It is all about guns I guess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

FoxTrot87
12-14-2012, 10:02 PM
I used to believe in a woman's right to chose but one day realized the hypocrisy of that belief because I also believed in the death penalty.

The left: Abortion of an innocent life is okay but the death of a killer is wrong

The right: Abortion of an innocent life is wrong and the death of a killer is just

tcrpe
12-14-2012, 10:06 PM
:popcorn: IBTB

jdberger
12-14-2012, 10:23 PM
As we as gun owners share in the sorrow and grieve for the victims , we also do not have near enough informations to fathom what actually happened and while We condemn the perpetrator's action , we also are aware that this tragedy as horrible as it might be is not a gun issue but a crime issue .

As things stand at the moment there seems to be a string of failures that have lead to this atrocity , the gun in the end was just the tool this criminal chose to perpetrate his sick plan .
However at this time I for one choose to focus on the innocent victims and say a silent prayer for them and their families . I will wait for all the facts are found before I pass judgement on what this means other then a horrible act .

well said

Dothraki
12-14-2012, 10:55 PM
its the media's fault these shooting occur.
this is the main reason these shooting happen.

watch this video, spread it, please!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded
This video kinda reminds me of how O.J. Simpson made live car chases popular. With so much media attention, it became an idiotic fad. There was a period when you would see it all the time in the news after O.J. made it cool. Mass murders seems to be the in thing right now. The way to go out for some of these lunatics.

Full Clip
12-14-2012, 10:58 PM
The terrible events in OR and CT have only confirmed my belief: Firearms should be kept out of the hands of the mentally ill.
I know, pretty controversial.

skyscraper
12-14-2012, 11:03 PM
This video kinda reminds me of how O.J. Simpson made live car chases popular. With so much media attention, it became an idiotic fad. There was a period when you would see it all the time in the news after O.J. made it cool. Mass murders seems to be the in thing right now. The way to go out for some of these lunatics.

People are naturally going to want to know details on a mass murder. Nothing really shady about it. Do you guys expect the news not to report heavily on a situation like this? I know I was not alone in being glued to the TV for updates this morning.

bgoldber
12-14-2012, 11:14 PM
I used to believe in a woman's right to chose but one day realized the hypocrisy of that belief because I also believed in the death penalty.

The left: Abortion of an innocent life is okay but the death of a killer is wrong

The right: Abortion of an innocent life is wrong and the death of a killer is just

Wrong!

The Left: A pregnant person should get to decide how their life plays out, not society or the government, and People convicted of crimes should rehabilitated to re-enter society

The Right: Women don't know what's good for them and shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions, and incarcerated should be murdered because it will teach others a lesson.

Think about this, people in favor of gun control feel the same way about your guns as you feel about other peoples zygotes. You don't have any more right to your guns than women do to have abortions.


PS. I know I posted a pretty inflammatory post earlier and I apologize it was unnecessary at best; but abortions are not why this shooting happened and honestly what other people do with their lives is none of your business. That is, after all, what you are asking other people to do by way of letting you keep your guns; to stay out of your business.

ChuckBooty
12-14-2012, 11:16 PM
When these things happen, the debate is always the same. My take on it is a little differently. The way I see it, this type of thing, as well as a LOT of other crimes, are able to happen as a result of the misuse of our countries police force. State and local governments treat their law enforcement agencies as a revenue-generating enterprise. Even going so far as to planning income generated by traffic tickets and other citations into their annual budget each year. The result is what you see every day...police spending 90% of their day catching speeders. Is that really the greatest threat to our nation?

Freeing police from these defacto ticket-writing quotas would mean that officers could spend their day being proactive. They could patrol the neighborhood while kids walk to and from school, they could have had a few officers inside the school just checking things out, they could patrol the neighborhoods where people are producing and selling crack, meth, PCP, heroin, etc. They could cruise by sex-offenders houses and keep an eye on former criminals out on probation. They could do all of these things NOW, except for the fact that this would result in the government SPENDING money, since the likelihood of an officer having to make an arrest would increase exponentially. No, instead the government wants it's money from the chicken**** citations handed out by fat *** biker cops.

By all accounts, police officers started arriving on the scene of todays shooting within a minute or two of the initial 9-11 call. Which means that there WERE police officers in the area at the time that this ***** *** retard started pulling the trigger. And what would you guess these officers were DOING at the time?

**** weak *** *****es who want to kill themselves, but only AFTER they inflict as much hurt and sorrow as they can on their fellow human beings. And **** ANYBODY who knows that they have an unpredictable, psychotic maniac living with them but still goes out and buys a bunch of ****ing GUNS just because 'merca. Makes me ****ing SICK!

jmzhwells
12-14-2012, 11:22 PM
There are tons of guns out there. They ban em, someone will have access to em and do what they want. A ban wont help at all.

DannyInSoCal
12-14-2012, 11:26 PM
Trying to change the "antis" opinion is a waste of time -

When shootings like this happen -

We should come out in force and file multi-million dollar lawsuits -

Against the local/state/federal governments for the failed, delusional agenda of "gun free safe zones" -

Until we have crushed the notion that unarmed law abiding tax paying citizens are "safer" being disarmed...

1911Operator
12-14-2012, 11:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mKC3RIPCGs

this basically sums everything up.

SkiDevil
12-15-2012, 12:14 AM
[/Quote] While arming our teachers responsibly is a right call to make,by that point the die was already cast. The REAL place of prevention was in the family home, where he shot his mother dead before going on the rampage. As someone whose personally experienced a family member making an attempt on my life, let me just say that even the most high speed low drag among us aren't prepared for their closest loved ones turning native. Nevertheless it happens, and sadly quite frequently, as the recent NFL incident and this despicable mess in CT illustrate. One of the NCOs I worked with in the Air Force deployed twice to Iraq and came back unscathed each time, only to die by the hand of his psychotic wife stateside on a Friday night.

My advice to you guys, take a stiff drink and ask yourself if you're prepared to take the life of your mother, father, boyfriend, girlfriend, wife, husband, or best friend in self defense. If one day you wake up next to the love of your life and they're a clear threat to you and society at large, are you capable of blowing their lights out ? We spend all sorts of time drilling for an anonymous bad guy attacking from the bushes, without realizing that we may literally be sleeping next to our attacker every night.[/QUOTE]

The majority of victims in homicides were related to or have had some type of relationship with the perpetrator. There is a reason in the process of investigating a murder police look at spouses, immediate family members, friends, and co-workers first.

A terrible tragedy occurred today. However, as more rational voices have conveyed there is little which can be done to stop the actions of a madman.

If there is a God or Heaven may he watch over the innocent souls whom lost their lives today.

phrogg111
12-15-2012, 12:37 AM
Turn it around on them, bait them into saying it is all about our kids safety then drop this on them;

In 2009, 784,507 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 48 reporting areas. The abortion rate for 2009 was 15.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years and the abortion ratio was 227 abortions per 1,000 live births.

Far more children die at the hands of their mothers than by firearms each year

That's the stupidest thing I've heard about this shooting yet.

Saying that abortion is murder and the government needs to ban it is absurd.

That's like saying that if you're a woman, and you're not always pregnant, trying to get pregnant (that's currently having sex), or unable to get pregnant, that you're a murderer. Therefore, the government needs to mandate that you have as many kids as you physically can, or put you in jail for the rest of your life. The baby is equally dead, and you're just as burdened as you were before.

The government CANNOT dictate what a person can do with their body. The government CANNOT dictate that woman have babies because the government said so. The government CANNOT outlaw abortion, because other people's rights DO NOT end where your feelings or religion begin.

Abortion is terrible, but if it is justifiable, then it is just like any other type of justifiable homicide - if someone needs to die, then they need to die. Is it justifiable? That's not for you to decide. That's someone else's choice. Maybe that's terrible, and wrong, and it would be nice if there was something we could do about it, but there isn't. That's all there is to it.

Red Ranger
12-15-2012, 1:06 AM
"Why would someone feel compelled to kill children," was the first thing that went through my mind. Then I looked at the next article and it was about a gun law petition...
Wait a second... why did a person decide to kill children in the first place?

We do not have all the facts yet, my guess is that there was a lack of respect for human life and a disregard for the consequences. I don't care if they had a gun, an SUV, a pipe-bomb, or a pathogen in a spray bottle, the intent was to kill and it happened.

Wrangler John
12-15-2012, 4:15 AM
I don't know that there is a solution, and I'm OK with saying that (though it is certainly worth exploring). We are unique as creatures in our capacity both for compassion and wanton violence. Sadly, our technology greatly enables the latter (but does not cause it.)

People will talk about better mental health care...OK, but what does that mean exactly? I assume that the citizens of every other country have the same mental health issues that we do, but their rates of gun violence are significantly lower--even when their access to guns and rates of gun ownership are comparable--such as in Israel and Switzerland. What are they doing differently in the area of mental health?

I don't think it does us any good as gun owners to downplay something like this, and assert that it is "rare" or "statistically insignificant." It sure wouldn't be insignificant if that were your kid, would it? I think we are conditioned to respond that way, because the discussion almost inevitably jumps straight to legislation. But these things should not happen, and we'd all like them not to happen, and it is worth having a discussion about it. You can't just dismiss these things as the products of crazy outliers...somehow, they are a product of our society and we need to take a look at why that is.

The population of Israel is 7,933,200
Population of Switzerland is 7,639,961
Population of California is 37,800,000
Population of US is 313,780,968

Most of the European countries are smaller in population than California, let alone the United States. Both Israel and Switzerland combined have a smaller population than California. Larger populations, combined with social and cultural differences increase the probabilities for such incidents.

One factor is that national policy is to provide strict security at airports, yet neglect the schools. Schools are effectively confined concentrations of children open to any terrorist or criminal attack as a matter of policy. If the nation has no will to provide effective security measures for innocent children attending schools, then we can conclude that there is something wrong with our priorities.

The murderer in this case, said to have a personality disorder, had access to firearms in his parent's home. This is an area that could be addressed. It is my practice to keep all firearms in a locked safe, inside a locked room. Firearms should not be freely available to individuals with mental disorders any more than felons. This is one area of investigation that should be given some credence.

Tarn_Helm
12-15-2012, 4:57 AM
That title was to rope you in but it was also to make a point. These are like the statements that are made daily by anti-gun groups.

With another tragic mass shooting happening today we as proponents of the 2nd Amendment & all civil rights will undoubtedly come under fire. So we have to ask ourselves how we can change what causes these tragedies without it adversely affecting our rights to defend self, family and country.

I have a few ideas:

1) We have to look at what causes these horrible actions... Simply put, mentally unstable criminals cause these tragedies. . . .
Thanks for reading,

JDMcGee

In both of the the last two cases, at least--Colorado and Arizona--there were enough people, including members of the psychology/psychiatry professions who had strong reason to believe that the perpetrators were experiencing extremely violent ideations.

However, these members of the psychology/psychiatry professions failed to suggest to authorities that the person should not have firearms because of 1) his "patients' rights under federal law" or 2) reluctance to become known as a "snitch" (which would be professionally harmful).

If you go back and read the documents surrounding Jared Loughner (Arizona shooter), for example, the signs were there.

On Loughner's math quiz, he scrawled the phrase "Mayhem Fest" in large letters at the top of the page, apropos of nothing--this in addition to all his other weird behavior, including getting himself officially banned by law enforcement long before he ever "suddenly went off," as the news media like to characterize these things.

The signs are always there.

But federal law "patient confidentiality law" (HIPAA and FERPA) and the psychology/psychiatry professions protect the mentally unstable persons who perpetrate these shooters.

(HIPAA is the acronym for the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/formsandpubs/laws/hipaa/Pages/1.00%20WhatisHIPAA.aspx).)

("FERPA (http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html)" is the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA) (20 U.S.C. 1232g; 34 CFR Part 99), a Federal law that protects the privacy of student education records.)

Look at the U.S. Gov't. Health and Human Services website's summary of HIPAA confidentiality law: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/understanding/summary/index.html.

The accompanying photo graphically illustrates the point: a stack of patient files bound with steel chain and padlock.

Under FERPA (http://www2.ed.gov/policy/rights/reg/edpicks.jhtml?src=ln), School administrators are also under enormous pressure not to allow "damaging" education records to leak out.

The bottom line is that state and federal law protecting the crazies needs to be amended so that lunatics can be dealt with effectively before they have done us in.

By the way, the word "lunatic" was recently banned so as not to hurt their feelings.

You can thank Elyn Saks for a lot of the more recent moves in this direction.

Here are a couple articles about her work: http://articles.latimes.com/1998/mar/09/local/me-27083 and http://articles.latimes.com/print/2009/sep/22/science/sci-macarthur22

The latter one mentions that in 2009 she was awarded a "genius" grant from the MacArthur Foundation for standing up for the rights of the mentally ill.

Here are a couple more articles: Tragedy follows landmark court win (http://articles.latimes.com/2007/mar/16/local/me-qawi16). It explains how a fellow who won the "right" to not take his meds then killed his roommate.
:facepalm:

Schizophrenia takes a daughter away (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tiffany29dec29,0,180502.story) (More of a "human interest" angle.)

Shutting door to treatment (http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-reny7dec07,0,5956944,full.story)(Human interest--but shows how dangerous the so-called "harmless" mentally ill can be.)

De-Criminalizing Mental Illness (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1651002,00.html)

GaryV
12-15-2012, 5:35 AM
I think the way to address such questions is to shift the discussion away from gun control entirely. What surprises me is that no one is asking what I see as the most obvious question here - in 2012, several years after Columbine, 911, and the Mumbai massacre, how is it still even possible for an armed man to enter an elementary school in the US? The federal government spends billions buying armored vehicles and surveillance drones for police departments who can only react after the fact; why don't they spend some of that instead on decent doors, locks, and security cameras for schools and other "sensitive places"? After all, if they are sensitive, shouldn't they be protected by something other than a secretary sitting behind a desk?

The example of China, with its ongoing epidemic a school stabbing sprees, is proof that this is not about guns at all, but about security. And even though the psycho who stabbed 22 yesterday didn't kill anyone, that's only because he used too small a knife. When these attackers in China have used larger knives, they've killed in numbers and ratios equivalent to that of school shooters here in the US. So if the psycho yesterday had used a slightly larger knife, we'd probably be looking at a body count almost as high as the one in Connecticut.

Everyone should be asking the question I led with, on every news site in the country. Because even if we could somehow magically make all guns in the US go away forever, there's apparently nothing stopping the next mass murderer from doing the same thing with a knife, a bomb, a can of gasoline and a road flare, etc., and as China shows, we'd still be witnessing classrooms full of dead children when one of them decides to strike out. When you see any post anywhere, or hear anyone discussing, how this should lead to more gun control, call them on their exploitation of this tragedy to support their failed political agenda, and point out this argument as the one we should be addressing.

451040
12-15-2012, 6:28 AM
Do you know how many people the Catholics killed and tortured because of their belief in the "wrong" invisible father?


A very small fraction of the tens of millions tortured and/or murdered by atheists in just the last century alone.


Why do you own guns? What government are you going to stop, its insanity to think you could do anything to prevent them from taking your guns away with your guns!
I own guns because I like them ...


Sorry, but the 2A isn't about such a trivial pursuit.


I see a tragedy like this, and it's people who are unwilling to compromise that I blame.


Obviously you referring to the gun grabbers and their absolute lack of the concept of compromise.


PS.


PS - atheism is your religion.

obiwan
12-15-2012, 6:51 AM
The government CANNOT dictate what a person can do with their body.


They already have in the form of AHCA.

Wiz-of-Awd
12-15-2012, 7:01 AM
You give some good arguments, but a little perspective is in order.
As shocking and horrible as these events are, they are eclipsed DAILY by things like drunk drivers. Gun incidents have more WOW value, and with kids involved, it has a double gut punch emotional impact.

Criminals, crazy people, evil people... we'll always have them until we can figure out a way to get rid of them, or get them at the very least, sequestered out of society.

...and we always have.

I've often thought and wondered about events like this.

Do we as a society - that is ever more connected and able to share information - simply hear about such events more, because there are more means to spread the word so to speak? As well, has our society become one that lives to read about tragedy in our various media, because we have become so bored with our lives and lost track of our own focus in life?

Perhaps even, society itself is laying the groundwork for evil in the world to take hold and become more prevalent.

A.W.D.

truthseeker
12-15-2012, 7:42 AM
Bgoldber,
Because you seem to think you need to make a positive impact since you only live once, dors not mean other people like you (that are atheist democrats) believe the same thing.
As far as the magical being whispering to me, the whole part about religion is Faith. And I am not going to get into a pissing match about religion, but I would bet my house that more Christians have better morals and ethics than Atheists such as you, because they believe the 10 commandments and believe that there are repercussions for the actions you make on earth (i.e. going to hell for eternity).

44fred
12-15-2012, 7:46 AM
Man created the problem, man cannot fix it!

therealnickb
12-15-2012, 7:59 AM
Man is the problem, man cannot fix it!

FIFY.

44fred
12-15-2012, 8:10 AM
FIFY.

"Fixed it for you"

I don't understand.

therealnickb
12-15-2012, 8:11 AM
Man didn't create the problem, man is the problem. We can't fix us.

44fred
12-15-2012, 8:39 AM
Man didn't create the problem, man is the problem. We can't fix us.

I agree with half of your statement. Man is the problem, we can't fix it.

If man didn't create the problem, who or what did?

therealnickb
12-15-2012, 8:52 AM
I agree with half of your statement. Man is the problem, we can't fix it.

If man didn't create the problem, who or what did?

Some say God created us and gave us free will. Others say our molecules slammed together by accident, crawled out of the mud and our actions are simply relative to the environment around us.

Either way, our behavior is the problem. There is no separate problem. Can we fix us? I don't think so. Remove all of our technology and evil people will remain evil.

skyscraper
12-15-2012, 9:05 AM
semantics.

therealnickb
12-15-2012, 9:13 AM
semantics.

What "problem" did we create? If we were dealing with a definable problem like opening a locked door, we could in fact fix it.

44fred
12-15-2012, 9:19 AM
"We" cannot fix evil in man, only one God can.
Until I understood that, (only took 50 years) my life was really not worth living.
The more comfortable we become with this world, the more evil raises its ugly head.

therealnickb
12-15-2012, 9:22 AM
Now you got it!

glock7
12-15-2012, 10:07 AM
A liberal media and an administration that wants to infringe on our rights is what is fueling all of this. Disarm the masses is what they are trying to do, that's the ultimate for this govt. anyone who thinks differently is....I'll put it gently, naive.

Mitch
12-15-2012, 10:14 AM
I would bet my house that more Christians have better morals and ethics than Atheists such as you, because they believe the 10 commandments and believe that there are repercussions for the actions you make on earth (i.e. going to hell for eternity).

This is gonna blow your mind, but believe it or not some of us try to be good not because we are afraid of eternal punishment, but because we just think it's the right thing to do.

Must suck to have to be compelled to be good.

readysetgo
12-15-2012, 10:23 AM
People are naturally going to want to know details on a mass murder. Nothing really shady about it. Do you guys expect the news not to report heavily on a situation like this? I know I was not alone in being glued to the TV for updates this morning.

You might not be alone, doesn't mean you're in good company. :(

therealnickb
12-15-2012, 10:25 AM
You might not be alone, doesn't mean you're in good company. :(

Now there is a great sig.

44fred
12-15-2012, 10:59 AM
This is gonna blow your mind, but believe it or not some of us try to be good not because we are afraid of eternal punishment, but because we just think it's the right thing to do.

Must suck to have to be compelled to be good.

I thought that way for a long, long time and lived my life accordingly.
I challenge any man do do extensive research on God, Jesus, The Bible, heaven and hell.
I guarantee you will fear hell if you do.
Christians are not compelled to do anything. It's all our choice.
I pray my fellow man sees what is now obvious to me now.
God bless, Fred

jdmcgee
12-15-2012, 1:13 PM
I thought that way for a long, long time and lived my life accordingly.
I challenge any man do do extensive research on God, Jesus, The Bible, heaven and hell.
I guarantee you will fear hell if you do.
Christians are not compelled to do anything. It's all our choice.
I pray my fellow man sees what is now obvious to me now.
God bless, Fred

I've waited a while to throw another post to this thread that I started.

I'd like to reply now.

Pertaining to the post that I quoted above, if religion or a belief in God is your answer for a moral compass, so be it & please, believe what you will. What I'm about to say is not a popular belief among a number of people involved in this thread or the majority of pro 2A folks. I personally believe, only for myself, God isn't my answer for said moral compass because I'm an atheist & I am not a criminal, I have morals, kindness & know that killing anyone for any reason other than self-defense is wrong. Before someone states something like "have you sought a relationship with God?", yes, I have, & I still am... I would love to believe in God but the evidence & more importantly, faith isn't there for me. I grew up in church, I attended seminary to become an evangelist & I've spent many years searching for a personal relationship with God. The more I learned & put my trust in God, the less I believed until I came to my current lack of belief in God. A belief in an all powerful God doesn't stop people from doing evil things. If you look at past & present, there have been more people blindly murdered in the name of their God than any other cause... EVER. What people do need is morality & kindness, if your trust & belief in God gives you these qualities, again, so be it... As long as that belief in God gives you morals & kindness, please, by all means, believe.

In reference to an even larger amount of replies to my thread, if you honestly feel that we can do nothing to change people's anti 2A opinions on firearms, we are already on the fast track to lose our rights. There are only 2 options to keeping our 2A rights in the long run:

1) Attempt to influence & ultimately change people's anti-gun views through education & non-confrontational means

OR

2) Wait until we lose our 2A right & try to regain those rights through confrontation

If you are one of the many, many people that's convinced there's nothing we can do to change the "anti-gun media" or anti-gun groups views, you are only leaving yourself option #2. I along with millions of others DO NOT want it to come to option #2. You have to change your own mind before you can ever expect to influence anyone else's mind.

JD

GunOwner
12-15-2012, 1:27 PM
Wrong!

The Left: A pregnant person should get to decide how their life plays out, not society or the government, and People convicted of crimes should rehabilitated to re-enter society

The Right: Women don't know what's good for them and shouldn't be allowed to make their own decisions, and incarcerated should be murdered because it will teach others a lesson.

Think about this, people in favor of gun control feel the same way about your guns as you feel about other peoples zygotes. You don't have any more right to your guns than women do to have abortions.

SOOOO WRONG!

It is NOT about a women deciding about their own lives - it is about a women deciding about the life of an UNBORN HUMAN. A fetus is a human being. That discussion - when does life begins is OVER - even pro-abortion rights people concede this.

If you don't believe me check what happens if I punch your pregnant wife in the stomach and kill it. I go up on MURDER. Why should the mother have a special right to MURDER her child when there are other options (adoption) that while they inconvenience the mom they do not end up with a murdered baby.

The cold hard fact is some people believe that the mom has a RIGHT to kill the baby rather than endure that inconvenience - IS THAT REALLY A RIGHT. What about the babies right to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

I a aware of Roe v. Wade but when life began was an open question when Roe v. Wade came down. That is why some of us think it should be thought through again in light of current understanding.

jdmcgee
12-15-2012, 1:46 PM
SOOOO WRONG!

It is NOT about a women deciding about their own lives - it is about a women deciding about the life of an UNBORN HUMAN. A fetus is a human being. That discussion - when does life begins is OVER - even pro-abortion rights people concede this.

If you don't believe me check what happens if I punch your pregnant wife in the stomach and kill it. I go up on MURDER. Why should the mother have a special right to MURDER her child when there are other options (adoption) that while they inconvenience the mom they do not end up with a murdered baby.

The cold hard fact is some people believe that the mom has a RIGHT to kill the baby rather than endure that inconvenience - IS THAT REALLY A RIGHT. What about the babies right to "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness."

I a aware of Roe v. Wade but when life began was an open question when Roe v. Wade came down. That is why some of us think it should be thought through again in light of current understanding.

Sorry but opinions on abortion have literally absolutely nothing to do with firearms, 2A legal views or 2A political views. Please everyone stop opening that can of worms when it has nothing to do with this website, forum or specific thread. There are plenty of other places on the web that are specifically for the topic or at least welcome debate on abortion.

GunOwner
12-15-2012, 2:34 PM
Sorry but opinions on abortion have literally absolutely nothing to do with firearms, 2A legal views or 2A political views. Please everyone stop opening that can of worms when it has nothing to do with this website, forum or specific thread. There are plenty of other places on the web that are specifically for the topic or at least welcome debate on abortion.


But your views on atheism and God are OK - right? How does that work? Two points: a) it was brought up by another person who misstated the facts about "women's rights" (to murder their babies) so I corrected them, and b) MOST importantly, it IS relevant to the discussion here. The LIBERAL LEFT is ranting that because 20 children were killed they want to limit my EXPLICIT constitutional right to bear arms but when MILLIONS of children are murdered by their mothers a THOSE SAME LIBERALS do NOT want to take away the mothers NON-explicit constitutional right to murder the baby. The point is it is HYPOCRISY. If they care so much about these children and their catchphrase "if it saves one life" then they would halt abortion yesterday and leave the guns alone.

Guntech
12-15-2012, 2:34 PM
Try to stay focused on the task at hand folks, the other side counts on dissension in times like these.

hookah
12-15-2012, 2:51 PM
I am a strong believer in my and your right to bear arms...But I can't help but bring up japan in this situation, which from what I have read, banned the right to private firearm ownership back in 1958 I believe. It states in the article I attached that in 2008 the U.S. had 12,000 firearm related homicides, while japan had 11, yes 11. I would never want to be stripped of my weapons and with the amount of firearms owned in the U.S., I think that kind of law would be inaffective...I just can't help but wonder what your thoughts are on this? and if japans fundamentals on guns would change anything here in the U.S. in relation to these shootings. Check out this article.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

jdmcgee
12-15-2012, 2:52 PM
But your views on atheism and God are OK - right? How does that work? Two points: a) it was brought up by another person who misstated the facts about "women's rights" (to murder their babies) so I corrected them, and b) MOST importantly, it IS relevant to the discussion here. The LIBERAL LEFT is ranting that because 20 children were killed they want to limit my EXPLICIT constitutional right to bear arms but when MILLIONS of children are murdered by their mothers a THOSE SAME LIBERALS do NOT want to take away the mothers NON-explicit constitutional right to murder the baby. The point is it is HYPOCRISY. If they care so much about these children and their catchphrase "if it saves one life" then they would halt abortion yesterday and leave the guns alone.

Point taken... but if you read my post again pertaining to God it is clearly in response to a comment about God or Christianity being the only way to have enough morality & common sense to own or use a firearm responsibly, which it is not.

Also, this area of the forum is for legal or political firearm discussion and whether you personally agree with the abortion law or not (which I don't) makes little difference because currently from a legal standpoint, abortion is not murder.

Let's get back to guns & 2A discussion.

JD

bwolcott
12-15-2012, 2:59 PM
the government isn't stupid they know the statistics and that banning guns wont prevent crimes, they want to ban them because its our only defense against a overpowering tyrant government, the government is supposed to be for the people, look around does it look like they are for the people?

jdmcgee
12-15-2012, 3:13 PM
the government isn't stupid they know the statistics and that banning guns wont prevent crimes, they want to ban them because its our only defense against a overpowering tyrant government, the government is supposed to be for the people, look around does it look like they are for the people?

Our current form of government is undoubtedly NOT for or by the people in very many areas. If you think it is try to get an appointment with your elected Senators or Representatives to discuss constitutional or legal issues if you or an organization you're affiliated with didn't donate a large sum of money to their campaign. Another question I've always asked is how can my congressman be in touch with their constituents (i.e. me or you) if they are rarely in their respective districts.

Stupendous_Man
12-15-2012, 4:20 PM
My heart is broken, and this disturbing and tragic event comes after a series of horrific shootings... I just don't know anymore. Maybe someone on here can help me out.

I get the "it's not the gun it's the person" logic, but these aren't gang shootings anymore. These aren't really cases where, if guns were outright banned, these guys would have guns. They weren't criminals before this, and a lot of them may have passed for sane before the fact. I don't know how much longer we can argue that a total gun ban (hypothetically) wouldn't solve this. I think it's not that simple, and I think it's a balancing of rights v. safety.

I've gotten to the point where my faith in our community (maybe our species) has been shaken. I'm embarrassed to admit my gun ownership to non-gun owners. It's hard for me to look at my arsenal, knowing that I have the weapons capability to commit this kind of atrocious act myself, and the only thing standing between any of us and something like this is that we're sane. I sometimes wonder, hypocritically of course, if I could just ban guns for everyone but myself, if my family would be safer out there.

Like most of you, I'm lucky enough to never have needed guns for self-defense, and I don't expect I ever will. So personally, and I know my situation isn't everybody's, I feel guilty that protecting my recreational hobby is allowing lunatics to kill children. I would give this up if it meant preventing one instance like this happening in the future.

Long post, sure I'll get burned for it here. Going to go hug my family and try to process.

SilverTauron
12-15-2012, 6:30 PM
My heart is broken, and this disturbing and tragic event comes after a series of horrific shootings... I just don't know anymore. Maybe someone on here can help me out.

I get the "it's not the gun it's the person" logic, but these aren't gang shootings anymore. These aren't really cases where, if guns were outright banned, these guys would have guns. They weren't criminals before this, and a lot of them may have passed for sane before the fact. I don't know how much longer we can argue that a total gun ban (hypothetically) wouldn't solve this. I think it's not that simple, and I think it's a balancing of rights v. safety.

I've gotten to the point where my faith in our community (maybe our species) has been shaken. I'm embarrassed to admit my gun ownership to non-gun owners. It's hard for me to look at my arsenal, knowing that I have the weapons capability to commit this kind of atrocious act myself, and the only thing standing between any of us and something like this is that we're sane. I sometimes wonder, hypocritically of course, if I could just ban guns for everyone but myself, if my family would be safer out there.

Like most of you, I'm lucky enough to never have needed guns for self-defense, and I don't expect I ever will. So personally, and I know my situation isn't everybody's, I feel guilty that protecting my recreational hobby is allowing lunatics to kill children. I would give this up if it meant preventing one instance like this happening in the future.

Long post, sure I'll get burned for it here. Going to go hug my family and try to process.


Thank your for posting this. Ill bet millions of gun owner feel the same way you do.

Liberty comes at a price, and its a painful and bloody one. As a veteran, I can't tell you how angry it makes me when I read about some politician passing a law which strips us of rights me and my forbears bled and in some cases died for. 30 kids dying is a tragedy , no doubt-but every year thousands of US troops are killed in action to defend our right to be free individuals in a world which is ignorant of the entire concept.If you disagree, try explaining freedom to a native Chinese citizen who's never left his home nation.

I consider the kids who died last week to be in the same category as war veterans who've laid down their lives for this nation, because in both cases they've paid the ultimate price so that you and I among millions of others have the right to exercise our freedoms. I cannot speak for your convictions, but I WILL NOT dishonor the memories of those victims and those of every shooting victim before by caving into the protectionist, statist agendas of those who would piss on the graves of everyone that's laid down their lives for freedom. The very thought makes me ill.

Selling your guns is more than just transferring property. You're giving up a right 26 kids died to protect.

We could have taken the easy road a long time ago and banned civil ownership of arms. The anti's almost won in 1934 with the NFA, which originally was supposed to include ALL semi automatic rifles. It would probably have prevented Columbine, VT, Connecticut, Colorado, and other spree shooting incidents through the years. The other side of the scale is that I, and millions of others , would probably be injured or dead from criminal attack due to not being able to use a gun for self defense.

Make no mistake, disarming not only disrespects the ultimate sacrifices made by men and women better then any of us , but is in effect trading one holocaust for another.

glock7
12-15-2012, 7:25 PM
I have no problem telling people that I am a RESPONSIBLE firearms owner. As sad as the situation in CT is, that is no reason to feel embarrassed about your gun rights and ownership. Hug your children and keep them and close, and be proud that you are an American and can protect your family with your firearms. You give up your 2a rights and you'll be a slave. Don't ever give up. Endeavor to persevere.

jdberger
12-15-2012, 8:56 PM
My heart is broken, and this disturbing and tragic event comes after a series of horrific shootings... I just don't know anymore. Maybe someone on here can help me out.

I get the "it's not the gun it's the person" logic, but these aren't gang shootings anymore. These aren't really cases where, if guns were outright banned, these guys would have guns. They weren't criminals before this, and a lot of them may have passed for sane before the fact. I don't know how much longer we can argue that a total gun ban (hypothetically) wouldn't solve this. I think it's not that simple, and I think it's a balancing of rights v. safety.

I've gotten to the point where my faith in our community (maybe our species) has been shaken. I'm embarrassed to admit my gun ownership to non-gun owners. It's hard for me to look at my arsenal, knowing that I have the weapons capability to commit this kind of atrocious act myself, and the only thing standing between any of us and something like this is that we're sane. I sometimes wonder, hypocritically of course, if I could just ban guns for everyone but myself, if my family would be safer out there.

Like most of you, I'm lucky enough to never have needed guns for self-defense, and I don't expect I ever will. So personally, and I know my situation isn't everybody's, I feel guilty that protecting my recreational hobby is allowing lunatics to kill children. I would give this up if it meant preventing one instance like this happening in the future.

Long post, sure I'll get burned for it here. Going to go hug my family and try to process.

The guns used in this tragedy were simply tools. I realize that you can intellectualize this, however, you're internalizing the fears and projections of others who can't.

A couple years ago, a disturbed man drove his car at top speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Russell_Weller)onto a crowded market in Santa Monica, killing something like 10 people.

In 2003, a disturbed ex-cabbie set a subway train on fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daegu_subway_fire)in Daegu, Korea killing almost 200, wounding 150.

In 1990, a disguntled airline pilot flew his loaded airplane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990)into the ocean, killing all 217 aboard.

After any of these incidents did you hear calls to ban automobiles, gasoline or airline travel? Did you look at your car and shudder in horror? Did you contemplate shredding your Southwest Airlines Rapid Rewards card in the fear that you were somehow complicit in the deaths of hundreds?

Of course not. It would be absurd to blame an inanimate object for the actions of a deranged individual.

In the end, what do you have in common with this fruitcake? You're male? You're white? You might have the same hair and eye color. And what else? You want to see the world burn? You want to take revenge upon a society that you feel has wronged you? You want to punish them by taking away the things they value above all others?

Why would you let others affix that label to you? Reject those preposterous accusations. Their assertions are offensive and vile. Treat them as such.

GunOwner
12-15-2012, 9:10 PM
Stupendous_man I can appreciate your emotional response and like others have said if it makes YOU want to give up your guns - go ahead just don't force me to give up my guns. I do not see my guns as a Hobby - I see them as a necessity for self defense. A right the founders thought was important enough to build into the constitution. DO you know why? Because they had seen what governments do to a disarmed populace.

But even putting the constitution aside keeping guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is CRUCIAL. Here are a few random thoughts.

First, there is no magic that can make all the guns go away. Even in countries that confiscate some residual guns remain. What is accomplish? Criminals have guns and we go back to primitive days where the physically stronger can dominate (and government can dominate the populace).

Second, ALL products on the market have consequences (check out how many kids die from taking aspirin; killed by cars and the like) and taking products off the market has consequences. Keeping things on the market is a cost benefit calculation. The numbers of people that defend themselves from violent crime with guns every year is Staggering. Taking guns away from those people would result in many more deaths and violent crimes. They might not be these sweet innocent children that we mourn but it would be a LOT larger number over any period of time than the number of people killed in these tragedies. All life is sacred but it is a mistake to think eliminating guns would result in fewer deaths.

Guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is the SOLUTION NOT the problem. If someone at the school had a gun it may have ended soon if not before it started. The statistics on how many die when the police stop the shooter (~14) vs. when an armed lawful citizen stops it (~3) should say all we need to know.

Crazy people happen and there is NO WAY to prevent it or predict it - cops - guards can't be everywhere. GUNS in the hands of well trained law abiding citizens is the ONLY solution to this problem.

451040
12-16-2012, 4:42 AM
Maybe someone on here can help me out.


sell all your firearms ... ASAP


:rolleyes:

rodeoflyer
12-16-2012, 7:27 AM
From My Cold Dead Hands.

/discussion

gunbuddha
12-16-2012, 9:03 AM
Originally posted by Tarn_Helm "The bottom line is that state and federal law protecting the crazies needs to be amended so that lunatics can be dealt with effectively before they have done us in."

I was saying this Friday morning the moment the news broke...before we knew the magnitude of the situation. Everyone I work with thought I was the crazy one....

HermanH
12-16-2012, 9:20 AM
I've been reading these comments, looking at other comments following a Youtube snippet of the shooting, as well as the links in this thread.

I don't believe there's an answer to the OP's title. I know it was a bit of bait but it worked. It was intended I suppose, to help us get to what I felt, was an ambiguous comment by Obama: " find a meaningful solution".

We all know he had gun control on his mind but he didn't want to politicize the situation and he was visible shaken about this so like some, I want to hear all the fact; I just wish they (the TV stations) would stop pulling everybody's heart strings to fuel their next agenda, big TV news on gun control debate and mental illness ( bonus for them ). I get it that TV is still a business and the longer they keep eyes on whatever media we choose, they will be happy and we continue to be saddened, angry, debating, and generally, wanting us to chime in, so long as it's aired.

Oddly, I went to review the 'Declaration of Independence' and the 10 Amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

I do this once in awhile to remember how the 2A came about and in the era and conditions in which it was written and forged. Being born here doesn't necessarily mean I understand every inch of American history. But being Asian, I didn't get a really decent education living in Chinatown and then in the Red Light District of San Francisco (and like some kids in school, history didn't seem relevant when the Vietnam war was raging so I take blame for that) so I really do enjoy re-reading the American Constitution to reconnect why I love this country despite it's short comings in some 236 years later.

The word that keeps sticking to my mind is the word "amendment". Correct me if I'm wrong, but it means the 2nd right of US citizens to bear arms was an addition and then later, also changed a little of it's terminology very slightly to be succinct in supporting their Declaration document.

In reading both, I am humbled in their courage to sign and support such a document, knowing they could lose everything including their lives, should the 13 Colonies fail the war (and yes, the French too.) As someone once put it, their signatures on the Declaration was also their own death warrant but they knew that. That takes a large pair to do.

With the current problems today, it might be easy to think perhaps the 2A needs to be 'amended' again. I think not. I think we need to remind people that we can't have our freedoms without some consequence. I also believe given the chance to declaw us, the government could control more of our lives than they already do. I'm not naive as I was some 40 years ago in my youth. Like some here, as a gun owner, I'm also fairly level headed too. Having my firearm allowed me a bit of security when a quarry worker had shot 5 people dead, and wounding 2 others, before heading to my neighborhood. My daughters school was in lock down. I came back home from work, took out my 45ACP and paced the house until I could get my daughter, both her best friends and their parents into MY house, where I knew I cold protect them (because nobody knew where this out of control shooter was hiding or moving - the blood hounds were constantly used in every neighbors back yard since they had a good strong scent from the car he left behind just 2 blocks from my house.)

I knew at that moment, why the 2A was important to me.

So if I were to answer the OP's more detailed reason for his post, it's not about guns; it has always been about how to address the root cause - which is the hardest - a person that has lost or never had a moral compass to follow. In this light, I think American's in general have gotten so lazy and so complacent that they think legislation will solve a problem. This is one place in can NEVER fix it. It requires the one thing it seems to be contradictory to Americans - to actually help those that need a path.

I see "it's none of your business what I do so long as it doesn't affect anyone else" and I respect that. But if we see someone that needs guidance, it seems to become " it's not my problem." ... unfortunately, I believe it is but we're so scared of repercussions due to some anal law, that it's easy to walk away. I'm not immune to this either. It would take the fortitude of a strong person, someone like those 56 signatures on our Declaration of Independence, to acknowledge the consequences and then forge ahead to remedy a situation. I believe we're going to have a very ugly battle on our hands.

Just rambling here. I wish I had an answer though.

Stupendous_Man
12-16-2012, 10:44 AM
I really appreciate the thoughtful (and even the unthoughtful) responses to my post. A lot to think about. I especially am grateful to the veteran who pointed out that an all out ban may have prevented these tragedies but at a big cost; i think a realistic conversation about what that cost is and what it's worth is the only way to save our gun ownership. It's kind of like football right now in that if head injuries keep going on we may lose the sport entirely whether its right or not.

To the "sell your guns" responses, selling MY guns wouldn't solve my problem, it's not that I don't trust myself with guns (I'm a responsible gun owner), it's that I don't trust everyone else with guns, which yes is an emotional and hypocritical response. But the problem is, in advocating for OUR right to own guns, we are also advocating for some disturbed loser's right to own a gun, and that doesn't sit right with me, I'm sure everyone on this forum is responsible and that the vast vast majority of Americans are. I'm speaking generically, none of us knows what weirdo out there who has no history of crime and no documented mental illness is buying guns for this kind of thing. And yeah, cars/knives/bats etc kill people, but is anyone arguing that they are as effective? There was just a school stabbing in China where something like 11 kids were injured before they stopped this guy, but 0 killed... knives don't change the playing field for one person as much as our guns do, which is exactly why we want them ourselves.

Maybe the solution is staffing an armed officer on every campus? A mental health evaluation before purchase? More restrictions? Arm teachers and kids? And all out ban? There are no easy answers, but I don't think we can just keep writing these off as tragedies and move on in the status quo. For now, I agree with that viral Morgan Freeman quote. The best thing we can do is forget the killer's face, name, and story, and focus on only the lives&healing of the victims and their families. Don't give these losers the satisfaction of the fame they were looking for and maybe less people will do this.

ENDO
12-16-2012, 10:48 AM
Outlaw bad people.

MT1
12-16-2012, 11:13 AM
Quick-and-easy is the American way. Give me a pill, doc. Fast food. One-stop-shopping.

No one has the guts to face hard problems. We're too weak as a people. Instead, Democrats will blame guns and pass a quickie law named after some girl and move on to claiming credit so they can get re-elected.

Plus, doing research on mental health costs money. Republicans won't allow that -- only spending on the military and giving money to rich bankers is allowed. They also don't believe in research -- too many damn liberal hippy professors with all that academic mumbo-jumbo.

So neither side will ever do anything to help solve the problem. Ergo, it will continue forever.

Absolutely, I've said this several times over the last few days.

MT1
12-16-2012, 11:16 AM
Without looking at mental health, we'll never get real solutions.

Michael Savage on his radio show, who is probably the least pro-gun out of the top right side talk show hosts, did bring up an interesting solution in his opinion. He suggested banning possession of guns by those on psychiatric medications.

I can't say I fully agree with that, because in part it would keep gun owners from seeking mental help, but I found it refreshing to hear someone actually propose a solution that targets mental health rather than the general law abiding gun owner. We need more thinking along these lines.

People on their meds are responsible and treating their chemical imbalance, it's the undiagnosed and those who refuse to take meds who are the danger.

That suggestion is akin to saying that anyone who has to wear glasses shouldn't be allowed to drive a car. :rolleyes:

jdmcgee
12-16-2012, 11:28 AM
I've been reading these comments, looking at other comments following a Youtube snippet of the shooting, as well as the links in this thread.

I don't believe there's an answer to the OP's title. I know it was a bit of bait but it worked. It was intended I suppose, to help us get to what I felt, was an ambiguous comment by Obama: " find a meaningful solution".

We all know he had gun control on his mind but he didn't want to politicize the situation and he was visible shaken about this so like some, I want to hear all the fact; I just wish they (the TV stations) would stop pulling everybody's heart strings to fuel their next agenda, big TV news on gun control debate and mental illness ( bonus for them ). I get it that TV is still a business and the longer they keep eyes on whatever media we choose, they will be happy and we continue to be saddened, angry, debating, and generally, wanting us to chime in, so long as it's aired.

Oddly, I went to review the 'Declaration of Independence' and the 10 Amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

I do this once in awhile to remember how the 2A came about and in the era and conditions in which it was written and forged. Being born here doesn't necessarily mean I understand every inch of American history. But being Asian, I didn't get a really decent education living in Chinatown and then in the Red Light District of San Francisco (and like some kids in school, history didn't seem relevant when the Vietnam war was raging so I take blame for that) so I really do enjoy re-reading the American Constitution to reconnect why I love this country despite it's short comings in some 236 years later.

The word that keeps sticking to my mind is the word "amendment". Correct me if I'm wrong, but it means the 2nd right of US citizens to bear arms was an addition and then later, also changed a little of it's terminology very slightly to be succinct in supporting their Declaration document.

In reading both, I am humbled in their courage to sign and support such a document, knowing they could lose everything including their lives, should the 13 Colonies fail the war (and yes, the French too.) As someone once put it, their signatures on the Declaration was also their own death warrant but they knew that. That takes a large pair to do.

With the current problems today, it might be easy to think perhaps the 2A needs to be 'amended' again. I think not. I think we need to remind people that we can't have our freedoms without some consequence. I also believe given the chance to declaw us, the government could control more of our lives than they already do. I'm not naive as I was some 40 years ago in my youth. Like some here, as a gun owner, I'm also fairly level headed too. Having my firearm allowed me a bit of security when a quarry worker had shot 5 people dead, and wounding 2 others, before heading to my neighborhood. My daughters school was in lock down. I came back home from work, took out my 45ACP and paced the house until I could get my daughter, both her best friends and their parents into MY house, where I knew I cold protect them (because nobody knew where this out of control shooter was hiding or moving - the blood hounds were constantly used in every neighbors back yard since they had a good strong scent from the car he left behind just 2 blocks from my house.)

I knew at that moment, why the 2A was important to me.

So if I were to answer the OP's more detailed reason for his post, it's not about guns; it has always been about how to address the root cause - which is the hardest - a person that has lost or never had a moral compass to follow. In this light, I think American's in general have gotten so lazy and so complacent that they think legislation will solve a problem. This is one place in can NEVER fix it. It requires the one thing it seems to be contradictory to Americans - to actually help those that need a path.

I see "it's none of your business what I do so long as it doesn't affect anyone else" and I respect that. But if we see someone that needs guidance, it seems to become " it's not my problem." ... unfortunately, I believe it is but we're so scared of repercussions due to some anal law, that it's easy to walk away. I'm not immune to this either. It would take the fortitude of a strong person, someone like those 56 signatures on our Declaration of Independence, to acknowledge the consequences and then forge ahead to remedy a situation. I believe we're going to have a very ugly battle on our hands.

Just rambling here. I wish I had an answer though.

IMHO, one of the best posts, if not THE best post in this thread... besides possibly my own (just kidding).

You stated "I believe we're going to have a very ugly battle on our hands" & I agree 100%. The important thing to remember is that freedom is a battle worth fighting... If we don't believe we can influence the anti-freedom battle in our favor that the anti-gun folks support, than we have already lost the war.

As the quoted post states, the founders of this great country made it known what their aspirations were for freedom even though if in the beginning, their opinions weren't popular... or even if they were possibly signing there own death warrants.

What will you do today, tomorrow & every day to let everyone know that you will not stand quietly for a loss of freedom? Even if it means many of those people you tell are fundamentally opposed to your views.

The minute you decide that you can't influence people's opinions on a topic, even one as touchy as the 2A, you are clearly accepting that you have lost your freedom.

There are many, many people in this country or for that matter, the world, that are only against the right to keep & bear arms because they are ignorant to the possibility of the said right being there to protect them as individuals.

Why are they ignorant? Simply because you, me & all of our like minded friends haven't educated them to the contrary!

So, again, I ask all of you, what will you do today & everyday to personally raise awareness on just how important the right to keep & bear arms is?

If you choose to do nothing to ensure your freedoms, than soon you will have no freedom to fight for.

JD

skyscraper
12-16-2012, 11:30 AM
You might not be alone, doesn't mean you're in good company. :(

You didnt watch any of the news about this?

jdmcgee
12-16-2012, 11:50 AM
For now, I agree with that viral Morgan Freeman quote. The best thing we can do is forget the killer's face, name, and story, and focus on only the lives&healing of the victims and their families. Don't give these losers the satisfaction of the fame they were looking for and maybe less people will do this.

100% agree! We have to let the organizations that are printing or broadcasting these things to stop spewing this garbage that only appeals to sadists... which sadly, by the amount of people watching or reading the trash giving recognition to a homicidal maniac, there are far to many sadists out there.

Remember, for-profit news organizations only put out what they're being paid to broadcast, by us through subscription or advertiser dollars. If you don't like it, stop paying them & it will (slowly) go away.

vantec08
12-16-2012, 11:59 AM
the government isn't stupid they know the statistics and that banning guns wont prevent crimes, they want to ban them because its our only defense against a overpowering tyrant government, the government is supposed to be for the people, look around does it look like they are for the people?

You bet. That is why DiFi and others bring it up regularly -- they dont want an armed revolution coming at them because they know about 60% of what they are involved in is unconstitutional on its face, and they will resist getting honest and realistic at all cost. I remember her standing at a podium, with a CCW permit herself, surrounded by armed agents, telling us we dont need a gun to protect ourselves. The hypocrisy and denial in our society is pernicious and insidious, especially among the Ruling Classes.

kbenson
12-16-2012, 12:00 PM
I think couple of the major things which needs changed is:

1.addition of mental health check (gun buyers and individuals who will use them)
2. The gun safety test (In cali @ least it is a joke) + make this test a requirement for rifle as well.

jdmcgee
12-16-2012, 12:06 PM
You didnt watch any of the news about this?

I read or watched enough to get the facts just so I could know if there was anything I could do to help this tragedy or possibly avoid a future tragedy & then stopped.

So much rehashing of such an evil act can be poisonous in many, many ways. In this instance, it can make ignorant people fear responsible, non-criminal gun owners, the mentally ill or even worse. If you remember Columbine, you might remember that there were many, many teenagers across the country harassed afterwards because of the clothes they wore because clearly no sane person should wear black clothes or trench coats.

It gets far too ridiculous far too fast.

jdmcgee
12-16-2012, 12:13 PM
I think couple of the major things which needs changed is:

1.addition of mental health check (gun buyers and individuals who will use them)
2. The gun safety test (In cali @ least it is a joke) + make this test a requirement for rifle as well.

Mental health check? REALLY? There are many major religions in the USA with millions of members that wouldn't pass a scientific test for sanity due to their beliefs... Do you really want to go down that road?

jdmcgee
12-16-2012, 12:35 PM
You bet. That is why DiFi and others bring it up regularly -- they dont want an armed revolution coming at them because they know about 60% of what they are involved in is unconstitutional on its face, and they will resist getting honest and realistic at all cost. I remember her standing at a podium, with a CCW permit herself, surrounded by armed agents, telling us we dont need a gun to protect ourselves. The hypocrisy and denial in our society is pernicious and insidious, especially among the Ruling Classes.

This has always been an enigma to me. DiFi is a poster child for the anti-2A movement yet her staff & herself make no excuses other than self-defense for being armed themselves. How does that make sense to anyone, especially anti-2A folks? Is not everyone entitled to a means of self-defense?

wjc
12-16-2012, 12:38 PM
This has always been an enigma to me. DiFi is a poster child for the anti-2A movement yet her staff & herself make no excuses for being armed themselves. How does that make sense to anyone, especially anti-2A folks?

It's called "hypocrisy".

Just one of the many tools in a politicians toolbox.

jdmcgee
12-16-2012, 12:43 PM
It's called "hypocrisy".

Just one of the many tools in a politicians toolbox.

True, but the people that are whole-heartedly anti-gun (I mean a total ban) are OK w/ DiFi having one. I know a number of anti-2A folks & they're OK with this... I always feel a little more stupid after I've had them try to explain this reasoning to me.

wjc
12-16-2012, 12:50 PM
True, but the people that are whole-heartedly anti-gun (I mean a total ban) are OK w/ DiFi having one. I know a number of anti-2A folks & they're OK with this... I always feel a little more stupid after I've had them try to explain this reasoning to me.

Indeed.

Regrettably, in most cases where I've had to deal with them they don't understand the consequences of a restriction.

They'd rather watch American idol and live sheltered lives.

I site the movie "Idiocracy" as an example of todays culture.

kcbrown
12-16-2012, 12:55 PM
Thank your for posting this. Ill bet millions of gun owner feel the same way you do.

Liberty comes at a price, and its a painful and bloody one.


But lack of liberty also comes at a price, and that price is also a painful and bloody one.

The tragedy that happened in Connecticut did so in very large part because the teachers and administrative staff lacked the liberty to possess firearms for the protection of the children and of themselves, and 20 children and six adults are dead because of it.

You can't prevent evil people from doing evil things without stuffing them into straitjackets and locking them in padded cells, but you can ensure that the good people have the means to immediately and decisively respond to evil acts when and where they happen. It was precisely because the good people at that school lacked the means to respond decisively that this murdering scumbag managed to kill so many in the way he did.



I consider the kids who died last week to be in the same category as war veterans who've laid down their lives for this nation, because in both cases they've paid the ultimate price so that you and I among millions of others have the right to exercise our freedoms.


But that's not the case here at all. In this case, the evil bastard blew through all the gun control laws that are on the books, the ones that eliminate liberty, and did his deed against good people who were unable to effectively respond because their very freedom had been usurped by some of those very same laws!



I fully agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but the fact of the matter is that those kids are victims of the very liberty-killing laws we fight against.

kcbrown
12-16-2012, 1:11 PM
I really appreciate the thoughtful (and even the unthoughtful) responses to my post. A lot to think about. I especially am grateful to the veteran who pointed out that an all out ban may have prevented these tragedies but at a big cost;


An all out ban would have done nothing. Want proof? There's already an all-out ban in the United Kingdom, and yet the Cumbria shootings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings) happened anyway.


You can't ban your way out of this problem. You just can't. What you can do is make it possible for the people on the scene to respond decisively and effectively.

In other words, the solution isn't to reduce liberty, it's to restore it.

Had the people at that school possessed firearms of their own, they could have responded effectively to the murdering scumbag who took the lives of so many.


But the problem is, in advocating for OUR right to own guns, we are also advocating for some disturbed loser's right to own a gun, and that doesn't sit right with me,


It may not feel right to you, but it's how liberty works. By taking away someone else's liberty, you do nothing but eventually destroy your own. That's because the very people who you want to control are the ones who will do what they want no matter what laws you pass. The ones you trust are the only ones who will obey the laws you would pass.


This entire dialog comes about as a result of a grave misunderstanding of the purpose of the law. With few specific exceptions involving cooperative activities (e.g., traffic laws), the purpose of the law is not to control what others in society do, because those we would control in that way are precisely those who will simply ignore what you tell them to do and instead do their own thing anyway. No, the purpose of the law in general is to make it possible to identify and remove from our midst those who would do us harm.

readysetgo
12-16-2012, 5:12 PM
You didnt watch any of the news about this?

Not really. I pretty much refuse to watch the tv news but I have looked at online stuff.

Curiosity is natural to all of us and it's good to be well informed but it's a thin line into morbid curiosity and obsession.

We're obviously all sickened by this but I refuse to dwell on it more than is necessary. Meaning, I'll pray to God for these people, stay vigilant against the remaining pieces of chit still walking around and send monetary relief if called to.

"Talking" about our feelings of this subject isn't going to bring these people back and is more akin to a knitting circle then the way grown men should conduct themselves. Especially lame baiting threads like this.

But skyscraper the above wasn't all meant at you and I shouldn't have flamed you earlier, please excuse me... Just frustrated, I guess, like everyone else. :)

downfall
12-17-2012, 8:44 AM
Is this the cost we must bear in order to live in a free society?

GunOwner
12-17-2012, 9:06 AM
Is this the cost we must bear in order to live in a free society?

NO. It's the cost we pay because we DON'T have a free society. Gun control idiots prevented the adults at the school from having the means to protect themselves and those precious children. They should be ashamed of themselves for this, Virginia tech and the other "gun free" zone shootings. How many times does this have to happen before they see that "gun free" zones turn into mass murder zones - it sickens me.

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 9:08 AM
Not really. I pretty much refuse to watch the tv news but I have looked at online stuff.

Curiosity is natural to all of us and it's good to be well informed but it's a thin line into morbid curiosity and obsession.

We're obviously all sickened by this but I refuse to dwell on it more than is necessary. Meaning, I'll pray to God for these people, stay vigilant against the remaining pieces of chit still walking around and send monetary relief if called to.

"Talking" about our feelings of this subject isn't going to bring these people back and is more akin to a knitting circle then the way grown men should conduct themselves. Especially lame baiting threads like this.

But skyscraper the above wasn't all meant at you and I shouldn't have flamed you earlier, please excuse me... Just frustrated, I guess, like everyone else. :)

Oh, you're probably right... talking about a subject in a public forum has never solved anything (full sarcasm intended). One thing you stated is very true, talking about this topic will never bring anyone back to life BUT addressing the topics voiced in this "lame baiting thread" will undoubtedly make people think about their personal views & possibly, even solutions to the problems we face So, that maybe, just maybe, tragedies of this magnitude won't occur again or at least lessen said tragedies. If no steps are taken to help come to a solution to stop these types of tragedies, than you can always expect the same outcome... just more of the same tragedies. I think we owe it to the memory of all the lives taken far too early to at least discuss possible solutions.

You just need to ask yourself if you personally want the actions taken in the wake of a tragedy to possibly be in line with your views or someone else's views that you fundamentally oppose.

Next, ask yourself, would you prefer more or less infringement on your freedoms. I personally will always pick more freedom.

If you would like less freedom & have someone else make your decisions for you, please, by all means, do or say nothing, it's your freedom at work that gives you the right to make that choice. But, I hate to tell you, if you do nothing to influence the people's opinions or views on topics you personally feel strongly about, you can never expect people to have similar views to yours.

In other words, people aren't aware of your differing opinions until you, personally, make them aware of those differing opinions... Even if it is sometimes through a "lame baiting thread".

JD

GunOwner
12-17-2012, 9:22 AM
But, I hate to tell you, if you do nothing to influence the people's opinions or views on topics you personally feel strongly about, you can never expect people to have similar views to yours.
JD


+++10000

The media spreads the gun control side's misinformation so if we don't evangelize on the truth about gun ownership popular opinion swings the wrong way. We must not be afraid to have people look at us funny when we advocate for gun ownership. In my experience their expression changes after they hear and verify the truth of what we say.

Remember: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 9:22 AM
NO. It's the cost we pay because we DON'T have a free society. Gun control idiots prevented the adults at the school from having the means to protect themselves and those precious children. They should be ashamed of themselves for this, Virginia tech and the other "gun free" zone shootings. How many times does this have to happen before they see that "gun free" zones turn into mass murder zones - it sickens me.

Sad but true... If we were a free & legally armed society & maybe if even only one of those armed members of the faculty had the proper training, this could've turned out entirely differently. Could a CCW at that school have saved every life that was ultimately lost under the circumstances, probably not... but if they could've saved just 1 life, all of the discomfort felt by people afraid of an "Armed Society" would be temporarily forgotten... especially if that life saved was your child's or your own.

JD

GunOwner
12-17-2012, 9:30 AM
Sad but true... If we were a free & legally armed society & maybe if even only one of those armed members of the faculty had the proper training, this could've turned out entirely differently. Could a CCW at that school have saved every life that was ultimately lost under the circumstances, probably not... but if they could've saved just 1 life, all of the discomfort felt by people afraid of an "Armed Society" would be temporarily forgotten... especially if that life saved was your child's or your own.

JD

Fact is these types of citizen interventions happen all the time (one a couple of days ago in Oregon); they should be celebrated but they get little press attention so it is up to us to spread the word about the lives saved.

We also need to address the fear of people regarding an "Armed Society" the gun control people tout surveys that more guns make people feel less secure but two points on that: a) the surveys don't distinguish between gang bangers with guns or trained law abiding citizens, and b) when there are more law abiding citizen's with guns (as has happened in "must issue" CCW states) crime ACTUALLY DO GO DOWN. So when people are made aware of that it may assuage the fear. Our biggest problem is that the truth about the benefits of trained law abiding citizen gun ownership never get presented in a fair and accurate way.

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 9:31 AM
+++10000

The media spreads the gun control side's misinformation so if we don't evangelize on the truth about gun ownership popular opinion swings the wrong way. We must not be afraid to have people look at us funny when we advocate for gun ownership. In my experience their expression changes after they hear and verify the truth of what we say.

Remember: All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Thanks for the words of agreement. I get shot down on this forum far too often for advocating that it is our own personal responsibility, as proponents of the 2nd Amendment, to educate & inform the masses on the true need of the right to keep & bear arms. Too many gun owners feel that there is nothing they can personally do short of donating to the NRA or Calguns to change a person's opinion on firearm rights.

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 9:40 AM
Fact is these types of citizen interventions happen all the time (one a couple of days ago in Oregon); they should be celebrated but they get little press attention so it is up to us to spread the word about the lives saved.

We also need to address the fear of people regarding an "Armed Society" the gun control people tout surveys that more guns make people feel less secure but two points on that: a) the surveys don't distinguish between gang bangers with guns or trained law abiding citizens, and b) when there are more law abiding citizen's with guns (as has happened in "must issue" CCW states) crime ACTUALLY DOE GO DOWN. So when people are made aware of that it may assuage the fear. Our biggest problem is that the truth about the benefits of trained law abiding citizen gun ownership never get presented in a fair and accurate way.

That last statement is very true. This is addressed in the opening post of this thread.

If you want to influence any for profit news organization in your favor you must hit them where it hurts, their profits. With a large loss of revenue, a for profit news organization will either change their reporting tactics to regain revenue or go out of business. Either way is a result in our favor.

If we don't like what the news reports as news, we need to make them aware by ultimately not paying them to report inaccurate or misleading news stories.

JD

GunOwner
12-17-2012, 9:53 AM
Too many gun owners feel that there is nothing they can personally do short of donating to the NRA or Calguns to change a person's opinion on firearm rights.

Currently our society thinks that gun owners are paranoid simple minded red necks because that is the image portrayed by the media. I understand that some gun owners want to keep a low profile so neighbors, government and others don't know they have guns. They want to avoid being thought of as a red neck rube or targeted by government or thieves. So I understand (but regret) that choice but it is a choice they have the freedom to make (I am sure you agree with me).

However, the only way we are going to change minds is with a grass roots campaign armed with facts about the many benefits of gun ownership and even if that person doesn't want to own a gun the benefits of a trained armed group of law abiding citizens. So I hope many of us get informed and get vocal because these tragedies MUST stop; there are solutions. The main causes of these tragedies are NOT Guns they are: failure of our society to effectively deal with mental health, and failure of our society to allow free citizen's to have the means to protect themselves. For this one we need to lay the blame where it belongs the gun control advocates failed "gun Free zone" experiment - we have tried it and it has failed miserably - too many have died - this must stop.

readysetgo
12-17-2012, 9:54 AM
Oh, you're probably right... talking about a subject in a public forum has never solved anything (full sarcasm intended). One thing you stated is very true, talking about this topic will never bring anyone back to life BUT addressing the topics voiced in this "lame baiting thread" will undoubtedly make people think about their personal views & possibly, even solutions to the problems we face So, that maybe, just maybe, tragedies of this magnitude won't occur again or at least lessen said tragedies. If no steps are taken to help come to a solution to stop these types of tragedies, than you can always expect the same outcome... just more of the same tragedies. I think we owe it to the memory of all the lives taken far too early to at least discuss possible solutions.

You just need to ask yourself if you personally want the actions taken in the wake of a tragedy to possibly be in line with your views or someone else's views that you fundamentally oppose.

Next, ask yourself, would you prefer more or less infringement on your freedoms. I personally will always pick more freedom.

If you would like less freedom & have someone else make your decisions for you, please, by all means, do or say nothing, it's your freedom at work that gives you the right to make that choice. But, I hate to tell you, if you do nothing to influence the people's opinions or views on topics you personally feel strongly about, you can never expect people to have similar views to yours.

In other words, people aren't aware of your differing opinions until you, personally, make them aware of those differing opinions... Even if it is sometimes through a "lame baiting thread".

JD

130+ posts and while there may be 4-5 nuggets of useful info, the rest of this thread including your post above is an incoherent mess. Yeah, this is a baiting thread, start with a strawman argument for a question and then proceed to tell me how I've been "roped" in to have some sort of deep meaningful discussion. If this was going to be a deep meaningful discussion w/ ideas exchanged and have positive or impactful results, then why "rope" me in, why not come out and say it?

As to your OP, I decline to engage. It's a strawman argument from the get go. We're supposed to answer to "ban these guns now!" in the context of this shooting? WTF, why? Other than some physiological traits shared by the human species, I DO NOT HAVE A SINGLE DAMN thing in common with this murderer of innocents. To fall into that trap is to legitimize they're argument which is not even a real argument, it's a "comparison". It's insulting and should be treated as such.

So, let's have a discussion that's not based on a comparison of us vs. a sick monkey.

patweb
12-17-2012, 10:05 AM
In my opinion, a large part of the problem is the dismantling of our Institutional Mental Health system by Reagan (and others) in the 80's. Someone decided it was better to close down facilities and put these people out on the streets. In addition, people known to be mentally insane are regularly released after a mear 72 hours hold. People that were in lockdown specifically because they were deemed a treat to themselves or others.

That being said, people need to be responsible for thier weapons. It's times like this we wonder if it's better to turn in our own guns or grip them tighter out of fear. Until the government can cleanse the streets of illegally owned weapons, I'll never give up mine.

451040
12-17-2012, 10:10 AM
To the "sell your guns" responses, selling MY guns wouldn't solve my problem, it's not that I don't trust myself with guns (I'm a responsible gun owner), it's that I don't trust everyone else with guns, which yes is an emotional and hypocritical response.


You posted:


It's hard for me to look at my arsenal, knowing that I have the weapons capability to commit this kind of atrocious act myself, and the only thing standing between any of us and something like this is that we're sane.


It's best that you sell your firearms before you lose your sanity and commit an atrocity.


But the problem is, in advocating for OUR right to own guns, we are also advocating for some disturbed loser's right to own a gun, and that doesn't sit right with me, I'm sure everyone on this forum is responsible and that the vast vast majority of Americans are. I'm speaking generically, none of us knows what weirdo out there who has no history of crime and no documented mental illness is buying guns for this kind of thing. And yeah, cars/knives/bats etc kill people, but is anyone arguing that they are as effective? There was just a school stabbing in China where something like 11 kids were injured before they stopped this guy, but 0 killed... knives don't change the playing field for one person as much as our guns do, which is exactly why we want them ourselves.


Move to Red China? To borrow a quote from ol' Ben Franklin "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


And all out ban?


Are you proposing the banning of the Bill of Rights? :facepalm:

HowardW56
12-17-2012, 10:14 AM
In my opinion, a large part of the problem is the dismantling of our Institutional Mental Health system by Reagan (and others) in the 80's. Someone decided it was better to close down facilities and put these people out on the streets. In addition, people known to be mentally insane are regularly released after a mear 72 hours hold. People that were in lockdown specifically because they were deemed a treat to themselves or others.

That being said, people need to be responsible for thier weapons. It's times like this we wonder if it's better to turn in our own guns or grip them tighter out of fear. Until the government can cleanse the streets of illegally owned weapons, I'll never give up mine.

The "dismantling of our Institutional Mental Health system" was the direct result of Connor v. Donaldson 422 U.S. 563 (1975) Supreme Court.


.

HowardW56
12-17-2012, 10:15 AM
In my opinion, a large part of the problem is the dismantling of our Institutional Mental Health system by Reagan (and others) in the 80's. Someone decided it was better to close down facilities and put these people out on the streets. In addition, people known to be mentally insane are regularly released after a mear 72 hours hold. People that were in lockdown specifically because they were deemed a treat to themselves or others.

That being said, people need to be responsible for thier weapons. It's times like this we wonder if it's better to turn in our own guns or grip them tighter out of fear. Until the government can cleanse the streets of illegally owned weapons, I'll never give up mine.

The "dismantling of our Institutional Mental Health system" was the direct result of Connor v. Donaldson 422 U.S. 563 (1975) Supreme Court.


.

Wildhawk66
12-17-2012, 10:16 AM
how many have to die before we change our minds???

How many thousands upon thousands have died fighting for this country to insure that Americans will have the right of self defense, among others? Are their lives not worth something? If the gun control debate is to be about the dead, let it center on these brave men and women.

How many thousands upon thousands have lived because someone was able to use a firearm to protect themselves, or others, from those sick or evil individuals who would have taken those lives? Are these lives not worth something too? If the gun control debate is to center on protecting the living, let it center on the brave men and women who lawfully use firearms everyday to protect life.

PRSTIFJ
12-17-2012, 10:18 AM
I agree that something needs to be done. I don't believe that we need bans on anything. The whole situation is complicated and I have no answer. What I can say, Is as law abiding responsible gun owners, lets do our part and do everything we can to secure our fire arms so they don't end up in the hands of psycho. I know they might be able to still get them on their own, but I want to do my part and make sure no one can use my guns to commit crimes. I have to wonder why the mother didn't have hers secured. Could simply having her firearms secured where her son had no access have prevented this tragedy? I think it might have.

readysetgo
12-17-2012, 10:19 AM
@451040

Way off topic... I wouldn't propose we ban your rights under the 1st amendment, however your avatar is straight up disrespectful, regardless of what meaning you think's behind that. What gives?

451040
12-17-2012, 10:27 AM
I wouldn't propose we ban your rights under the 1st amendment


There is no 1st amendment right in a private forum.


your avatar is straight up disrespectful


Disrespectful to? Statists?


regardless of what meaning you think's behind that.


Do you have any idea what meaning is behind it?


What gives?


I'm expressing my opinion regarding the condition of our republic.

readysetgo
12-17-2012, 10:47 AM
There is no 1st amendment right in a private forum.

Semantics.

Disrespectful to? Statists?

Not statists, to me. I'm American and that's my flag.

Do you have any idea what meaning is behind it?

Yeah, it's a sign of disrespect, flying our colors in a way that they're not meant to be flown.

I'm expressing my opinion regarding the condition of our republic.

Whatever floats your boat, I'll just know not to take you seriously on here. Thanks for the heads up. :rolleyes:

Wiz-of-Awd
12-17-2012, 11:23 AM
@451040

Way off topic... I wouldn't propose we ban your rights under the 1st amendment, however your avatar is straight up disrespectful, regardless of what meaning you think's behind that. What gives?

My understanding of the Flag being flown upside is as a symbol of distress.
Many people in our country today feel our country is in distress from within.

I personally don't see this avatar as disrespectful, but then again - my understanding could certainly be flawed.

A.W.D.

patweb
12-17-2012, 11:31 AM
Interesting read-

http://now.msn.com/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-says-mom-of-mentally-ill-son

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 11:43 AM
130+ posts and while there may be 4-5 nuggets of useful info, the rest of this thread including your post above is an incoherent mess. Yeah, this is a baiting thread, start with a strawman argument for a question and then proceed to tell me how I've been "roped" in to have some sort of deep meaningful discussion. If this was going to be a deep meaningful discussion w/ ideas exchanged and have positive or impactful results, then why "rope" me in, why not come out and say it?

-----------

So, let's have a discussion that's not based on a comparison of us vs. a sick monkey.

Firstly, the "rope you in" comment was made in jest & in reference to how anti-gun groups will spin this tragedy to "rope" the public in with similar statements. Basically, to remind all of the proponents of the 2A what we should expect to read or hear.

Secondly, after I in fact did "rope you in" with my thread title I felt I, along with a large number of other people involved in this thread, made some very good points. If the words, examples or terms I or anyone else used were too complicated for you to comprehend, I sincerely apologize. I personally can be more than a little "long-winded" due to speaking being my primary source of income for a good number of years, as opposed to writing.

Thirdly, I never made the argument that a law-abiding firearm owner & the "sick monkey", as you put it, were one & the same... actually, many times my statements were quite to the contrary. I only alluded to the fact that many people with anti-gun views consider us to be one & the same. If you don't want to be compared to a murdering, mentally ill person by people opposed to firearm rights, you first have to let those people know that you are in fact NOT one & the same... & I'm definitely sure that name calling of a person with a clear illness that includes diminished mental capabilities won't get very many anti-gun folks on your side, no matter how horrific his crimes but hey, what do I know? I'm just married to a Dr. that treats people with mental disabilities every day. :)

JD

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 11:46 AM
How many thousands upon thousands have died fighting for this country to insure that Americans will have the right of self defense, among others? Are their lives not worth something? If the gun control debate is to be about the dead, let it center on these brave men and women.

How many thousands upon thousands have lived because someone was able to use a firearm to protect themselves, or others, from those sick or evil individuals who would have taken those lives? Are these lives not worth something too? If the gun control debate is to center on protecting the living, let it center on the brave men and women who lawfully use firearms everyday to protect life.

I couldn't agree more!

readysetgo
12-17-2012, 12:11 PM
Firstly, the "rope you in" comment was made in jest & in reference to how anti-gun groups will spin this tragedy to "rope" the public in with similar statements. Basically, to remind all of the proponents of the 2A what we should expect to read or hear.
JD

We seem to be at a stand still here, I think you're a troll and you feel this threads righteous. Nothing more to be discussed, I guess.

Secondly, after I in fact did "rope you in" with my thread title I felt I, along with a large number of other people involved in this thread, made some very good points. If the words, examples or terms I or anyone else used were too complicated for you to comprehend, I sincerely apologize. I personally can be more than a little "long-winded" due to speaking being my primary source of income for a good number of years, as opposed to writing.
JD

Please, I'll match wits with you anytime, long winded and unclear/incoherrent are two different animals.

Thirdly, I never made the argument that a law-abiding firearm owner & the "sick monkey", as you put it, were one & the same... actually, many times my statements were quite to the contrary. I only alluded to the fact that many people with anti-gun views consider us to be one & the same. If you don't want to be compared to a murdering, mentally ill person by people opposed to firearm rights, you first have to let those people know that you are in fact NOT one & the same... & I'm definitely sure that name calling of a person with a clear illness that includes diminished mental capabilities won't get very many anti-gun folks on your side, no matter how horrific his crimes but hey, what do I know? I'm just married to a Dr. that treats people with mental disabilities every day. :)

JD

Maybe I wasn't clear on that point. I don't think that's your position, my point is you play into that argument when you feel you have to defend a strawman argument. A response to an insult like this is not justified.

I've also gotta say, what you or wife do for a living doesn't concern me in the least, your wifes a Dr. and that makes you an expert on this? Or you're just talking about me calling names there? I've no inhibitions about calling this type of subhuman any name whatsoever and I don't think every person who needs a little counseling and some prozac equates to him, so your assumption there isn't valid, at least from my perspective.

You don't treat a rabid dog, you put his a** down.

Finally, let me know when you come to some breakthrough revelation about "How many have to die" through your little pet thread here.

I'm out, you may continue...

A-J
12-17-2012, 12:36 PM
We have to look at what causes these horrible actions...

It's them evil guns. Silly. Nuff said.

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 12:45 PM
We seem to be at a stand still here, I think you're a troll and you feel this threads righteous. Nothing more to be discussed, I guess.



Please, I'll match wits with you anytime, long winded and unclear/incoherrent are two different animals.



Maybe I wasn't clear on that point. I don't think that's your position, my point is you play into that argument when you feel you have to defend a strawman argument. A response to an insult like this is not justified.

I've also gotta say, what you or wife do for a living doesn't concern me in the least, your wifes a Dr. and that makes you an expert on this? Or you're just talking about me calling names there? I've no inhibitions about calling this type of subhuman any name whatsoever and I don't think every person who needs a little counseling and some prozac equates to him, so your assumption there isn't valid, at least from my perspective.

You don't treat a rabid dog, you put his a** down.

Finally, let me know when you come to some breakthrough revelation about "How many have to die" through your little pet thread here.

I'm out, you may continue...

It's not that I feel this thread is righteous, far from it. I feel that the right to keep & bear arms is a righteous cause and more importantly, one worth educating the ignorant on & if need be, fighting for. Also, I don't claim to be an expert on Mental Illness but the beautiful lady that I share my life with undoubtedly is... Maybe, just maybe, I've gleaned a little common sense knowledge on this topic from her.

Thank you for your reply and I'm comfortable speaking for myself as well as many others when I say good riddance... Your repeated negativity & confrontational attitude is counterproductive to a positive outcome in a discussion between like-minded individuals.

JD

PS - If you need me to explain any of the words or their context used in this post, please Private Message me... or you can contact me in person, I'm the troll that lives under the second bridge on the left. Let's not waste anyone else's time with your superior wit. :D

KEO
12-17-2012, 1:18 PM
For society to change we need to re grasp the concept of logic. We need to embrace, education, awareness, support, and personal accountability. Only then will we be able to curb violence. Random violence is something we can never be fully prepared for and it will always exist in society so it's a given. But if we as a society take the time to embrace the aforementioned ideals then we can at least curb violence in our society.

Wherryj
12-17-2012, 2:02 PM
its the media's fault these shooting occur.
this is the main reason these shooting happen.

watch this video, spread it, please!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4&feature=player_embedded

It's no more the media's "fault" than it is the "gun's fault", but the media is complicit in the copycat acts that occur due to their glamorization of the events.

The real fault lies with those who view other people as disposable pawns in their own grand schemes of wanton destruction. The problem is that we can NEVER be rid of the mentally ill and the criminally driven predators in society. The easy reaction to these events is to take away the ability for EVERYONE to protect themselves from these monsters. The hard path is to actually have to come to realize that monsters DO exist.

Sunday
12-17-2012, 4:37 PM
You have to realize that better than half of the population in this country are absolute mindless zombies that do not think. They just react to what they see on T.V. Think of the women who watch Opra.

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 5:09 PM
You have to realize that better than half of the population in this country are absolute mindless zombies that do not think. They just react to what they see on T.V. Think of the women who watch Opra.

VERY GOOD POINT!

The Oprah viewers & the like are a segment of the population that entire industries are devoted to.

Just imagine how the anti-gun climate would change if we had a large portion of this group of people exposed to the facts of the personal benefits of the 2A.

Simply put, with the proper training, they don't have to be defenseless victims to evil acts inflicted upon them ever again.

It's up to you, me & anyone reading this to attempt to influence every person's opinions on the right to keep & bear arms... especially the ones who disagree with us due to simple ignorance of the facts.

JD

jdmcgee
12-17-2012, 5:21 PM
It's no more the media's "fault" than it is the "gun's fault", but the media is complicit in the copycat acts that occur due to their glamorization of the events.

The real fault lies with those who view other people as disposable pawns in their own grand schemes of wanton destruction. The problem is that we can NEVER be rid of the mentally ill and the criminally driven predators in society. The easy reaction to these events is to take away the ability for EVERYONE to protect themselves from these monsters. The hard path is to actually have to come to realize that monsters DO exist.

An even harder path is to personally attempt to convince every person you can that it is their personal right AND responsibility to at least attempt to protect themselves from the monsters that do in fact exist... but this rocky path is worth walking on until the bitter end.

JD

dodge
12-17-2012, 5:23 PM
u.s.a. is @ an all time low for # of deaths due to these 'evil' rifles. & only 2-4% of all violent crime involves anything on ban list

http://www.waguns.org/images/smilies/reaction.gif http://www.waguns.org/images/smilies/runforthehills.gif

451040
12-17-2012, 5:45 PM
Semantics.


Fact. :)


Not statists, to me. I'm American and that's my flag.


You must be part of the group of people that believes it has a right not to be offended. :rolleyes:


Yeah, it's a sign of disrespect, flying our colors in a way that they're not meant to be flown.


You are clueless. :facepalm:


Whatever floats your boat


Thanks for giving me your approval to do what I feel. :thumbsup:


I'll just know not to take you seriously on here.


I couldn't care less. You don't know me and I don't know you from a hole in the wall. :yawn:


Thanks for the heads up.


No problem. :laugh: