PDA

View Full Version : DOJ transfer nightmare....


Kali Gurl
08-09-2007, 12:19 AM
My story is ludicrous but true. It is, perhaps, humorous as well. But I gotta tell ya...I think I forgot to laugh!.............

I purchased a completely CA legal on-the-roster Ruger GP100 [model #KGPF-331.] It was sent to me via an FFL in CT to my list-chosen FFL here in CA. My obviously inexperienced FFL could not find my gun on the Roster once it arrived here. I explained to her that "GP100" is the name of a whole Ruger series, but that each model in the series has its own identifying number to denote the different calibers, barrel lengths, etc. I even used Springfield Armory's XD series as another example of how the series name is on each gun but not the actual model number. I asked her several times--as I stood there while she tried getting through to the DOJ on the phone--to check the Sturm Ruger website so she could SEE FOR HERSELF that the Ruger KGPF-331in her hand was the VERY SAME one identified on the Roster. She kept saying that GP100 was not on the list and she could not submit the transfer to DOJ unless they confirmed it was OK. I told her to call me when she got through to them and left the store before I totally lost my cool.

Two days later she calls me and says she spoke to a woman at the DOJ who told her, that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES was she to transfer this gun to me because Ruger GP100 is not on the list...and that the gun MUST have the actual model number inscribed on it! Did these people just fall off the turnip truck or what?? Ruger GP100 models have long been sold in CA...and the DOJ is well aware of manufacturer differences in how their various models are identified...the DOJ has been okaying the sales and transfers of GP100's for many years. Sooo, what are the odds that I get a totally inept FFL who then speaks to a totally inept DOJ employee? Obviously, for me the odds were very high!

So, I copied the Sturm Ruger section of the Roster, with my model number highlighted. I sent that along with copies of the Ruger website pages showing photos and all the specs for myGP100/KGPF-331....emailed these all to my FFL, and she emailed this along with an actual photo [of my handsome satin stainless Ruger with the cool HiViz front sight] to the DOJ. We have now been waiting five days for the response that will get the transfer in motion. BUT...I am calling the DOJ tomorrow if my FFL does not have an answer for me yet....Geeeez!!!!! This is total BS!

I've called several other CA FFLs who say they sell GP100s frequently and have never had this problem. Anybody have any suggestions for how I might expedite this situation. Any feedback--or just commiseration--would be much appreciated. Plus, I am just curious if this is a relatively common occurence these days.

Thanks.....Kali Gurl

bear308
08-09-2007, 12:30 AM
welcome to the stupidity. This time it's on both sides. Doesn't the box have the exact model on it? Some people are just overly worried about the list.

As a last resort you can Call around to other FFL's in the area, and see if you can have it transfered to one of them. I guess we really pissed off the doj back in the day, must have sold 100 KGP-141s over the course of one year.

Welcome to the site, try not to let the shenanigans get to you. (I've wanted to use that word on here for the last two years)

kantstudien
08-09-2007, 12:39 AM
Wow, this sounds like an exercise in retardation. Rugers never say the actual model number on the gun, if the DOJ was correct then no Ruger handguns could be sold in CA except for single-action exempt since model number is typed in rather than found in a scroll-down list. Ruger has "popular" model (GP-100, Mini-14, etc.) and also "specific" model (in your case: KGPF-331).

You should have clarified this with your FFL prior to even engaging in this transaction. This is not rocket science, but apparently if a cluster-f can occur, it will. Find another FFL next time.

tenpercentfirearms
08-09-2007, 7:45 AM
I do not like the way Ruger listed their guns. I too have run into this before where it was a complicated process of figuring out what exactly I have to DROS. Basically Ruger is stupid because they have a "catalog" number and a "model" number. The "catalog numbers" are all on the list. And it sounds like there is another model number on the firearm.

I am in Taft, I will DROS it for you. Do you have the original box? That is probably part of the problem too as the box has the catalog number on it. Obviously they need to clean up their listing procedures.

And as an FFL you never call the DOJ about these things. You DROS it, you wait the ten days, you get it out of your shop. Once it leaves, who is going to know the numbers didn't match up exactly? Calling the DOJ just puts you on the radar, just like typing this in a public forum! :eek: The DOJ knows it is legit because why would Ruger have all of those "phantom" models on the list if the guns didn't exist?

rbgaynor
08-09-2007, 8:06 AM
I've often wondered why the DOJ doesn't simply add the standard retail SKU number to the approved list. Many manufacturers already show this on their website, so having it on the list would make it easy to check if a model is legal to acquire new in California. In this case the FFL could just compare the SKU on the original case with the list - no ambiguities, no questions.

emc002
08-09-2007, 8:13 AM
I'd like to know the name of the business. I also live in the Sierra and would want to avoid buying anything there in the future, I have a low threshold of patience for stupidity.
Thanks.

dfletcher
08-09-2007, 8:22 AM
Maybe the solution is for you to put your hesitant FFL dealer in touch with another FFL dealer who can speak the same language to her and clear things up?

6172crew
08-09-2007, 8:29 AM
Ditch the Ruger and get the Springer.:D j/k Didnt you know the BOF is the only one who is proffesh-anal to carry a Ruger?

If you want to get er done call the BOF yourself and ask them which Rugers are on the list and when they name off yours you tell them what happened and that he/she needs to call your FFL asap.

Believe it or not we pay the people who are stopping you from legal commerce.

Wulf
08-09-2007, 8:44 AM
I keep waiting for some manufacturer to start gaming the handgun safety racket. Like maybe kimber would offer a single, generic, model in each of the 3, 1911 frame sizes. Those three models would be the only kimbers certified for sale in the state, and would only be offered in the state. For all practical purposes this model would be only far enough above junk status to pass the tests, and the price would be appropriate for its near junk status. The reciever would be new but the upper would be used.

A person could then buy this gun and immediately ship it off to Kimber's custom shop with a check, and it would come back "much improved". The junk slide would get pulled off an put on another frame headed for CA. The net price of the finished gun would be in the neighborhood of what you would have spent on an equivalent model out of state.

Ruger could do a similar thing. One model of GP-100 certified for sale in CA.; all with used 4 inch barrels, all retailing at 49 state retail price -$50. Send them back to ruger with a 50 buck check and it comes back with any length barrel you want. You'd only be out the shipping fees.

icormba
08-09-2007, 8:52 AM
I ran into this problem when getting my S&W 686 w/ 5" barrel a few weeks back. It was listed on the DOJ online list as one thing and listed on the actual Ca-FFL software list by another description.

To help out my FFL... I mentioned it was the only .357 with a 5" barrel. With that she found it in about 5 seconds.

A few years ago I purchased a FEG PJK-9HP (Hi Power), as listed on the web list (under FEG - Hungary (Hungarian Arm Works). When my FFL started the paperwork, she couldn't find it! It took us about 20 minutes to figure out it was listed by the importer K.B.I. !! The two lists didn't match up.

tenpercentfirearms
08-09-2007, 8:53 AM
I'd like to know the name of the business. I also live in the Sierra and would want to avoid buying anything there in the future, I have a low threshold of patience for stupidity.
Thanks.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the dealer. The FFL has a job to do and it simply isn't worth it to do anything wrong. The dealer is just playing the game as it was set up.

Trust me, the Ruger list is quite confusing. Also take a look at this penal code section.

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.Up to a year in jail is not something a dealer should take lightly, especially a new dealer.

I don't blame the dealer for this. This was the way the policiticans wanted this set up so less guns would get DROSed. You need to work with that dealer and help them get it figured out so they can keep on selling guns to you good citizens of this state.

Exiledviking
08-09-2007, 8:56 AM
Sorry for your troubles. I hope they get it sorted out soon.

If you guys want to see truly stupid stuff, try buying a Browning Buckmark.
Browning has a model number for each gun, the DOJ only uses the DESCRIPTION of the gun. Browning does not have a list of which guns are Cali approved and the DOJ does not have a list using the model numbers.
Total cluster! :banghead:

rkt88edmo
08-09-2007, 9:13 AM
Does this law interfere with commerce? Check!

If it is a newbie FFL, it is the time to help get them on our side and get them good info, not to turn our backs on them because they are new to the marketplace and not as gun savvy yet.

If I had to do business under BoF and BATFE scrutiny, well, I probably just wouldn't unless I had some very healthy other lines of business to support me as well.

metalhead357
08-09-2007, 11:59 AM
Sorry to hear of thy troubles............ best thought; get yer' own FFL licence! We need more of them in state!!!!!!!!!!:D

Harbinger
08-09-2007, 12:19 PM
Sorry for your troubles. I hope they get it sorted out soon.

If you guys want to see truly stupid stuff, try buying a Browning Buckmark.
Browning has a model number for each gun, the DOJ only uses the DESCRIPTION of the gun. Browning does not have a list of which guns are Cali approved and the DOJ does not have a list using the model numbers.
Total cluster! :banghead:

All that for a little .22 pea-shooter.

I went through the SAME THING for my Micro-bull.

Mike

Librarian
08-09-2007, 1:15 PM
I keep waiting for some manufacturer to start gaming the handgun safety racket. Like maybe kimber would offer a single, generic, model in each of the 3, 1911 frame sizes. Those three models would be the only kimbers certified for sale in the state, and would only be offered in the state. For all practical purposes this model would be only far enough above junk status to pass the tests, and the price would be appropriate for its near junk status. The reciever would be new but the upper would be used.

A person could then buy this gun and immediately ship it off to Kimber's custom shop with a check, and it would come back "much improved". The junk slide would get pulled off an put on another frame headed for CA. The net price of the finished gun would be in the neighborhood of what you would have spent on an equivalent model out of state.

Ruger could do a similar thing. One model of GP-100 certified for sale in CA.; all with used 4 inch barrels, all retailing at 49 state retail price -$50. Send them back to ruger with a 50 buck check and it comes back with any length barrel you want. You'd only be out the shipping fees.
Perfectly legal - it's only FFLs who need to worry about selling from the list. Once the sale is approved and the pistol delivered, individuals can customize them any way they like (other than creating 'assault weapons', of course).

But why would dealers carry low-ball models? Where's the $$ for them? And manufacturers would have to expand their custom shops a little bit. Aside from that, pretty good idea.

emc002
08-09-2007, 1:57 PM
I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the dealer. The FFL has a job to do and it simply isn't worth it to do anything wrong. The dealer is just playing the game as it was set up.

It's not jumping on the dealer, it's simply reducing my chances of dealing with people that may or may not clearly understand the business in which they purport to be. Call it what you like, I'd rather deal with a FFL that is well versed and knowledgable.

Outlaw Josey Wales
08-09-2007, 4:11 PM
Go to the CA DOJ website. Click on Roster of Handguns Certified For Sale. Enter Sturm Ruger for manufacturer. Click Sort by model. Then you will see this:

There are 122 matching records for Sturm, Ruger & Co.
The matching records list is sorted by Model
This list is valid for Thursday, August 09, 2007

Model Gun Type Barrel Length Caliber Exp Date
GP-141 / Blue Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GP-161 / Blue Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GP160 / Blue Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GPF-331 / Blue Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GPF-340 / Blue Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
GPF-341 / Blue Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGP-141 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGP-141TG / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 6/3/2008
KGP-160 / Stainless Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGP-161 / Stainless Steel Revolver 6" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-330 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-331 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-340 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-341 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-840 / Stainless Steel Revolver 4" .38 Spl 12/31/2007

Inoxmark
08-09-2007, 4:33 PM
OJW, my understanding is that Kali Gurl is asking for advise on how to prove to the transfer dealer that GP100 in question is in fact model KGPF-331.

E Pluribus Unum
08-09-2007, 4:51 PM
I am in Taft, I will DROS it for you......And as an FFL you never call the DOJ about these things. You DROS it, you wait the ten days, you get it out of your shop. Once it leaves, who is going to know the numbers didn't match up exactly? Calling the DOJ just puts you on the radar, just like typing this in a public forum! :eek:

As a former Taft resident....and a former client of the OTHER gun store in Taft.... I remember what the ATF did to him.... do you?

Tread carefully friend....

Inoxmark
08-09-2007, 5:00 PM
I've often wondered why the DOJ doesn't simply add the standard retail SKU number to the approved list. Many manufacturers already show this on their website, so having it on the list would make it easy to check if a model is legal to acquire new in California. In this case the FFL could just compare the SKU on the original case with the list - no ambiguities, no questions.
There may be fewer ambiguities, but this system would be a hell of a lot more restrictive than what we have now. For example the following one line on the roster:
"M&P 9 (Mag Safety) / Stainless Steel, Polymer"
would cover the following SKUs:
109201: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, Std Sights, 2 Mags
109601: 10 Rd, Mag Safety, Night Sights, 2 Mags
Would also cover the following SKUs provided the 17rd mags are replaced with 10rd ones:
209201: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Std Sights, 2 Mags
209601: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Night Sights, 2 Mags
309201: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Std Sights, 3 Mags
309601: 17 Rd, Mag Safety, Night Sights, 3 Mags

Also, as we know the color of the slide on M&P9 is black. Who can say that at some point they wouldn't release actual stainless steel versions of the above, which would also be covered by the quoted description.

Also, just about everyone doing interstate transfer of a used gun would be in the same position as the original poster: how to prove that the gun is question is the actual listed SKU. That is just about impossible without original box with original manufacturer label containing both SKU and the handgun's serial number.

thomasanelson
08-09-2007, 5:24 PM
I agree this is insane, but so are most CA gun laws. Really can't fault the dealer, as the penalties are harsh. Ruger is just causing more problems by either not putting the "real" name on the gun or changing the real name to reflect what is already on the gun. BUT....in all fairness, my Sig P229R DAK only says P229 on the slide.

tenpercentfirearms
08-09-2007, 5:47 PM
As a former Taft resident....and a former client of the OTHER gun store in Taft.... I remember what the ATF did to him.... do you?

Tread carefully friend....

This isn't the ATF. This is the DOJ. And one can aruge that it was actually the Taft PD that did that to him, if you like to listen to rumors.

Basically, they screwed up and put down the catalog numbers for these guns instead of their model numbers. I just looked at a Ruger Single Six I have in. The catalog number that is on the gun is no where on the firearm.

So if the dealer just says, yeah, it was the KGPF-331 and as long as the DOJ doesn't show up at the shop in that time, you got nothing to worry about it. If they do show up at the shop, it won't be any different than if I ordered a KGPF-331 new from a wholesaler in the box. It isn't going to say it is a KGPF-331 on the gun, it just says it on the box.

Basically, this is a big SNAFU on both the DOJ and Ruger's part and it should be addressed. I would never fault a dealer for covering their rear and not doing this with this ambiguity present, especially a new dealer who thinks the DOJ has the resources to screw with piddly stuff like this. Of course they are going to give you a canned answer over the phone, but reality is something different.

Welcome to the world of confusing gun laws.

Kali Gurl
08-11-2007, 4:56 PM
Hey...thanks to everyone for their replies! Sometimes airing what you feel seems to get things moving at other levels...an example being that within 8 hrs of posting my message, my FFL leaves me a cheery phone msg that the DOJ okayed the transfer of my GP100/KGPF-331. It was just one of those odd synchronistic events but it struck me as being rather "amusing." Now... what I DO blame my FFL for is her utter lack of interest in following my suggestion to check out the Ruger catalog BEFORE she got on the phone to call the DOJ. I will maintain that someone who refuses to use his/her brain to actually think about the situation or who has no problem-solving skills, should not be an FFL. I had to spend my own time and numerous phone calls to her, emailing information, photos, etc...in order for this to get resolved. I did the work, she collects the fee. It was a pain in the butt, period. From the Roster:

KGPF-330 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007
KGPF-331 / Stainless Steel Revolver 3" .357 Magnum 12/31/2007

Had she simply noted the ONLY TWO Ruger model numbers on the Roster that could have matched my gun, and then checked the Ruger online catalog [as I suggested three times while I stood there] then my transfer papers could have been completed that very first day. KGPF-331 is full shroud and the 330 is the half shroud model. The picture for the 331 is a 100% match to my 331 so...duh...I can understand been cautious but she was unwilling to even go to the Ruger online catalog and look at the frickin' photo. Her actions showed no interest or curiosity to my assertions that I was 100% certain of the model of my gun. Actually, she seems uncomfortable with guns...sort of pretending she was holding a hand mixer or an iPod or something...you know, outwardly matter of fact but obviously uncomfortable. I did go and complete the transfer but, no, I would never go there again. This is a large Mercantile Store and they sell everything from ATVs to lightbulbs. They also do firearm transfers and sell ammo but they do not carry any guns for sale...strictly transfers only. Just as an aside, my FFL blamed the whole mess on the DOJ employee she got on the phone who said a big NO! on the transfer. I thought about this later, and what else was that person going to say? She couldn't see the gun in question and my FFL was telling her straight out that she didn't see the gun on the list. I would've said no myself if I'd been on the other end of the phone. Ruger isn't the only manufacturer who doesn't put the actual model number on their handguns; surely an FFL should know this, and how to verify specific models. Besides a lack of experience, I believe my [former] FFL is afraid of the DOJ and of making a mistake. And while I sympathize, she could vastly minimize her fear/paranoia by simply educating herself. Anyway, this experience was a real drain. I'm done venting...sigh! Thanks again for all the responses.

Kali Gurl

BTW, no I didn't have the original box. It would've made a big difference since the label reads GP100/KGPF-331.
At the very least, there should be some kind of guide for new FFLs on how to decipher the Roster and that there is NOT a standardized method for model identification amongst manufacturers. A simple solution to this riduculous and unnecessary confusion would be a short, simple guide with a few examples...then maybe a ten question quiz that the FFL candidate must submit with their application. This would be a positive response to this problem, rather than the DOJ just telling FFLs that they could be slapped with a big fine for making a mistake.

E Pluribus Unum
08-11-2007, 6:02 PM
This isn't the ATF. This is the DOJ. And one can aruge that it was actually the Taft PD that did that to him, if you like to listen to rumors.

I know the rumors and I know the story... :)

I know the Taft officer that shot him.

The coroner said the fatal shot was the shot to the head sustained by his own 45....

The ATF said they were struggling over the gun and it went off... Taft PD officer shot post mordum.

Outlaw Josey Wales
08-12-2007, 4:25 AM
I know the rumors and I know the story... :)

I know the Taft officer that shot him.

The coroner said the fatal shot was the shot to the head sustained by his own 45....

The ATF said they were struggling over the gun and it went off... Taft PD officer shot post mordum.

In any event the state got what it wanted, another FFL out of business!:(

tenpercentfirearms
08-12-2007, 6:55 AM
In any event the state got what it wanted, another FFL out of business!:(

Well it helps not to sell full auto guns out the back door.

Shane916
08-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Well it helps not to sell full auto guns out the back door.

haha I imagine that would not help ones cause :)

E Pluribus Unum
08-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Well it helps not to sell full auto guns out the back door.

They never found any illegal weapons... they only had a warrant.

tenpercentfirearms
08-12-2007, 10:19 PM
They never found any illegal weapons... they only had a warrant.

That doesn't prove or disprove anything. That is why you have cameras in your shop so everything is on tape. If they murder me in my shop, there will be evidence. Assuming they murder me and I don't just try to committ suicide.

I just find it hard to believe that four cops from three different agencies are going to keep their story straight if one of them decides to murder a guy. Or were all four of them out to get him?

I wasn't there, so I don't know. Only five people know the truth and one of them is dead.

Lets make a new thread on this topic so as not to hijack this one.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=65952