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Kicker0429
12-12-2012, 6:16 PM
1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

2nd Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

10th Amendment: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

FIrst question: Why is the 1st Amendment an individual right, but the 2nd is a collective right?

Second question: If the framers meant the 2nd to apply to the states' militia then why did they use the word people in the operative clause? The 10th Amendment proves that they use people and states distinctly and that they are not interchangeable.

I am pretty sure that this was discussed when Heller was winding its way through the courts, but that was before I joined Calguns. Would one of you kind veterans point me to some references to the collective rights arguments?

dantodd
12-12-2012, 6:35 PM
The framers didn't intend the second to apply to the states. This is settled law and argumentsto the contrary were disposed of as the tripe they were.

Kicker0429
12-12-2012, 6:43 PM
The framers didn't intend the second to apply to the states. This is settled law and argumentsto the contrary were disposed of as the tripe they were.

Perhaps I did not make my intention clear. I know that the 2nd Amendment applies to the people, but I would like references to the the collective rights arguments.

1JimMarch
12-12-2012, 6:54 PM
Heller destroyed the "collective right" argument. It is dead. It has ceased to be. It is an ex-argument. It is no more. It has shuffled off this mortal coil. Even if you nail it to a stick it doesn't matter, it's not pining for the courts, it's dead dead dead dead dead dead DEAD.

:D

dantodd
12-12-2012, 6:54 PM
There are none. LCAV, Brady etc. have all accepted the fact that it is an individual right. If you want to see any of them look at the amici in favor of D.C. in Heller.

Kicker0429
12-12-2012, 7:05 PM
There are none. LCAV, Brady etc. have all accepted the fact that it is an individual right. If you want to see any of them look at the amici in favor of D.C. in Heller.

Ok, thank you dantodd and 1JimMarch.

Librarian
12-12-2012, 8:08 PM
There are none. LCAV, Brady etc. have all accepted the fact that it is an individual right. If you want to see any of them look at the amici in favor of D.C. in Heller.

... which you can find at http://dcguncase.com/blog/ and http://www.chicagoguncase.com/

Kicker0429
12-12-2012, 8:44 PM
... which you can find at http://dcguncase.com/blog/ and http://www.chicagoguncase.com/

Thank you, Librarian.

nicki
12-12-2012, 11:34 PM
Heller destroyed the "collective right" argument. It is dead. It has ceased to be. It is an ex-argument. It is no more. It has shuffled off this mortal coil. Even if you nail it to a stick it doesn't matter, it's not pining for the courts, it's dead dead dead dead dead dead DEAD.

:D

The "Collective right" argument belonging to the "states" is "DEAD", however I would contend that "Collective" isn't dead.:43:

We have much focus on our "right to keep and bear arms", but with rights also come responsibilities.:eek:

I would take the position that most of us have a "Collective Duty" to own, maintain and regularly train with arms suitable for "militia duty" should we ever get called to defend our country.

From a historical text, we had mandatory militia duty because the guys who founded this country felt standing armies and select militias were dangerous to our liberty.

We had to have some way to defend our country and the citizen's had militia duty. Of course militia duty back then was probably as popular as jury duty is today with many people.;)

Of course since generations of Americans have been negligent on their militia duties, we have had to build a professional army that goes around the world playing policeman on our dime.

The various alphabet fed agencies (DEA,FBI,ATF,IRS,DHS etc) probably would be good examples of modern day "select mlitias".

Collective right of the state, DEAD and hopefully will be kept that way.
Collective duty of the people, close to effectively dead unless we revive it.

The Liberal Justices all across the US tend to be actually pretty good on the rest of the bill of rights, perhaps they got confused and got duty and right mixed up with this "collective" thing.:rolleyes:

Nicki

fizux
12-12-2012, 11:57 PM
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated into the collective."

... Oh wait, that idea got shot down.

voiceofreason
12-13-2012, 5:59 AM
The framers didn't intend the second to apply to the states. This is settled law and argumentsto the contrary were disposed of as the tripe they were.

Tripe is yummy! :D

voiceofreason
12-13-2012, 6:01 AM
There are none. LCAV, Brady etc. have all accepted the fact that it is an individual right. If you want to see any of them look at the amici in favor of D.C. in Heller.

That's why they now have to retreat to the (very weak) position that Heller establishes that the 2A right exists only in the home.

(this argument is easily dismissed by asking the question)
Why discuss/establish "sensitive places" outside the home if the right is limited only to the home?

Nick Justice
12-13-2012, 8:26 AM
Continuing 1JimMarch: The collective right argument wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts throught it!

1JimMarch
12-13-2012, 8:56 AM
At least somebody around here is a Monty Python fan.