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Bolt_Action
12-10-2012, 8:54 PM
Can someone with an FFL in CA:

1) temporarily possess a registered AW or .50 BMG rifle, borrowed from someone else (for gun smithing, case fitting, etc.)?

2) possess and be loaned a large capacity magazine without getting the loaner of the magazine in trouble?

3) be loaned and/or temporarily possess a handgun or handguns that are registered to someone else?

GUNS4WORK
12-10-2012, 9:08 PM
No. An a.w. permit is required for the 50 or a.w.
A high cap license is reqired for the mags.
A pistol could be brought in for gunsmithing but not lent to the ffl.

Bolt_Action
12-10-2012, 9:12 PM
I thought an FFL could buy and sell guns, even keep dealer samples of stuff that wasn't legal for sale to civilians? They aren't even exempt from the high cap mag permit? I can't even loan them my handguns? I thought I could at least make a short term loan of a handgun to my neighbor if I wanted? What good is the FFL if it doesn't exempt you from any of this stuff?

GUNS4WORK
12-10-2012, 9:25 PM
Sales. Short and simple. We are regulated the same way civilians for most things. An FFL can buy off list guns but can only resell them out of state or to L.E.

GUNS4WORK
12-10-2012, 9:28 PM
The term "dealer samples" is used in the full auto industry. We don't have that out here in Cal.

Bolt_Action
12-10-2012, 9:35 PM
what about this provision:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=31001-32000&file=31050-31055

GUNS4WORK
12-10-2012, 9:50 PM
I never saw that one. The gunsmithing clause is listed. We tried to get and a.w. that was siezed by the doj for a customer so we could ship it out of state for him. They said no, it had to go to an a.w. dealer and then be shipped.

Gunsmith Dan
12-11-2012, 12:23 AM
Yes there is additional laws that further regulate who can have what and for what reason.

The person in charge of issuing AWP and LCMP to FFLs specifically stated that I had to have a LCMP to work on high cap magazine and a AWP to work on California registered AWs. The only excemption was if I had a AWP I did not need the LCMP to work on high cap mags.

Then there was the whole I need to have several letter from LEO's or AW registered owners stating they wanted to use my services for their AWs and LCMs. She also stated I needed to have regular work because if after 6 months they see no repair work on AWs they will not renew the license and maybe even pull it before it expires.

bwiese
12-11-2012, 12:44 AM
Can someone with an FFL in CA:

1) temporarily possess a registered AW or .50 BMG rifle, borrowed from someone else (for gun smithing, case fitting, etc.)?

Generally (99.9%) NO. Rare exceptions:

1. If the AW or 50BMG rifle is in continuous supervision/presence of owner,
who does not leave immediate presence of gun (for lunch, leave overnight,
etc.) and stands by you while you work on it.

Now, if the registered AW is a Category 3 ("by features") AW, it can be converted to a non-AW status by features changes (removals or adding a BulletButton maglock) so it is no longer an AW. On Category 3 RAWs, the actual gun status as an AW (or not) is in essence determined by configured features suite and not by registration; the registration merely *allows* it to be a legally possessed AW. This allows the gun to not be an AW for purposes of transport or service.


2. Limited time window estate disposal assistance in cooperation of executor. [DOJ's Iggy wrapped Tabor's Shooting Supplies "Frank" around a pipe for awhile earlier last decade but was laughed out of court. I do not think they will try this again given the staff changes and a rational DOJ BoF attorney.]

3. Otherwise, if and only if the FFL has a special DOJ permit for AWs or
50BMGs. (these are separate entities). [These are costly and hard to get.]



2) possess and be loaned a large capacity magazine without getting the loaner of the magazine in trouble?

If the FFL has a Large Capacity Magazine permit (fairly easy to get), no issue.


3) be loaned and/or temporarily possess a handgun or handguns that are registered to someone else?
[/quote]

Regardless of FFL, handguns can be lent to non prohibited Californians that have a current HSC card, for a period of up to 30 days. (The "infrequent loan" provision of law.) This gun would be 'personal' and not on the FFL books if done this way.


Now, I have a gut feeling your questions, from their phrasing, do sound like these are personal matters of someone "that just happens to have an FFL" - instead of actual day-to-day FFL business. Unsure of what you're trying to skirt around, if any.

I assume that FFL status is also in parallel with being "California OK" - meaning membership on the Centralized List (which is essentially CA DOJ's version of a state-level FFL).

Bolt_Action
12-11-2012, 6:26 AM
I'm trying to help get someone setup with a business (here in CA) where they can make custom foam interiors for handguns, rifles, shotguns. I told them that in order to send and receive guns in the mail that they would need to have a valid FFL, which I still think is true, right? But because they are in CA, it sounds like the FFL may not be enough to run their business properly. Both in-state and out-of-state guys might want to have interiors cut and fit for "assault weapons" but it looks like they will need to get an additional AW permit to do this legally? Also, what happens when someone in state (or out of state) wants to give them a gun which has one or more large capacity magazines? They need to have temporary possession of the mags in order to scan them and cut the interior, but is that temporary possession allowed? Perhaps the best approach would be to either sit with them and stay in the "immediate vicinity" while they do the scanning, or send them mags with the guts stripped out so they don't count as large capacity magazines (i.e. just tubes with base plates attached)?

I believe that what they are doing would count as "gun smithing" since it is custom work performed on firearms requiring customer's firearms, and this sort of thing is becoming more and more necessary with CA outlawing the carrying of firearms that aren't locked in a case.

Anyway, I'm just trying to help this guy setup his business and stay legal. I thought the FFL would be needed since in the past I know that I haven't been able to ship a gun to someone without checking their FFL status, so now that they have one I thought people could ship guns to them FedEX/UPS.

Bolt_Action
12-11-2012, 6:31 AM
Generally (99.9%) NO. Rare exceptions:

1. If the AW or 50BMG rifle is in continuous supervision/presence of owner,
who does not leave immediate presence of gun (for lunch, leave overnight,
etc.) and stands by you while you work on it.



The link I found above (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=31001-32000&file=31050-31055) doesn't seem to indicate that the .50 BMG rifle or AW must remain in the immediate presence of the owner so long as it has been given to a CA licensed dealer for the purposes of "gun smithing", repair, service, etc?

Mitch
12-11-2012, 6:50 AM
I believe that what they are doing would count as "gun smithing" since it is custom work performed on firearms requiring customer's firearms, and this sort of thing is becoming more and more necessary with CA outlawing the carrying of firearms that aren't locked in a case.

I think a business like that would be better off - for themselves as well as their customers - simply requiring an outline on paper of the firearms and accessories be sent through the mail for use as a template to produce the custom foam. Mailing firearms around is a hassle, and so, BTW, is maintaining an FFL.

Bolt_Action
12-11-2012, 6:51 AM
I think a business like that would be better off - for themselves as well as their customers - simply requiring an outline on paper of the firearms and accessories be sent through the mail for use as a template to produce the custom foam. Mailing firearms around is a hassle, and so, BTW, is maintaining an FFL.

What these guys can do is way too precise; you wouldn't get anywhere near the accuracy of the cutout by just tracing an outline on a piece of paper.

bwiese
12-11-2012, 9:43 AM
The link I found above (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=31001-32000&file=31050-31055) doesn't seem to indicate that the .50 BMG rifle or AW must remain in the immediate presence of the owner so long as it has been given to a CA licensed dealer for the purposes of "gun smithing", repair, service, etc?


Please don't correct me when you don't know really know the whole background, etc.

Now, I haven't memorized the new Penal Code arrangement/renumbering but it was back in the old Penal Codes in the 12280s and the rearrangement was 'neutral' and did not change any area of legal force. When in the 12280s they speak of licenses/permits etc they mean "AW permit in addition to regular FFL".

Bottom line: in CA, items defined as 'assault weapons' [registered or otherwise] simply CANNOT be possessed by a regular CA FFL unless he has an AW permit (similarly for 50BMG

Otherwise, there wouldn't need to be any DOJ AW permit, fees, etc., would there?

An AW at a CA FFL can get the FFL in big trouble - anything from losing his CA status as a dealer (which then can trigger a subsequent Fed FFL loss) up to and including multiple felony charges. When the whole 'off-list rifle' thing began in CA back in late 2005, DOJ was in fact trying to put FFLs in jail and scare them out of legal gun trade by articulating weird and invalid constructive possession scenarios. Fortunately we were able to push back against their over assertion of non-law.

I am unclear if 'foam case cutting' would remotely be a justifiable (in eyes of CA DOJ) reason to issue an AW permit - my more than reasonable guess is NO.. I would also say the business entity for AWs would be nonviable given the fees for AW permits/inventory would not be supportable by such a businesses' margins. I also, personally speaking, would not send a nice guy away - with consequent risk of loss/damage, esp a collectable or heirloom - for "foam shaping" when there's perfectly acceptable pick'n'pluck foam.

Bolt_Action
12-11-2012, 10:24 AM
Please don't correct me when you don't know really know the whole background, etc.

Now, I haven't memorized the new Penal Code arrangement/renumbering but it was back in the old Penal Codes in the 12280s and the rearrangement was 'neutral' and did not change any area of legal force. When in the 12280s they speak of licenses/permits etc they mean "AW permit in addition to regular FFL".

Bottom line: in CA, items defined as 'assault weapons' [registered or otherwise] simply CANNOT be possessed by a regular CA FFL unless he has an AW permit (similarly for 50BMG

Otherwise, there wouldn't need to be any DOJ AW permit, fees, etc., would there?

An AW at a CA FFL can get the FFL in big trouble - anything from losing his CA status as a dealer (which then can trigger a subsequent Fed FFL loss) up to and including multiple felony charges. When the whole 'off-list rifle' thing began in CA back in late 2005, DOJ was in fact trying to put FFLs in jail and scare them out of legal gun trade by articulating weird and invalid constructive possession scenarios. Fortunately we were able to push back against their over assertion of non-law.

I am unclear if 'foam case cutting' would remotely be a justifiable (in eyes of CA DOJ) reason to issue an AW permit - my more than reasonable guess is NO.. I would also say the business entity for AWs would be nonviable given the fees for AW permits/inventory would not be supportable by such a businesses' margins. I also, personally speaking, would not send a nice guy away - with consequent risk of loss/damage, esp a collectable or heirloom - for "foam shaping" when there's perfectly acceptable pick'n'pluck foam.

Pull and pluck foam is coarse and totally inadequate for my needs. I'm talking about a precision water jet cut interior made by scanning the actual items on a flatbed and cutting an interior that is perfectly form fitting, even for dozens of small parts.

Now I know that you can find parts of the penal code that state that FFL's must possess an AW permit in CA to deal in AW's, but that doesn't change the fact that there's an exemption written in black and white under penal code section 31050(a), which states "any licensed gun dealer may take possession of any assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle for the purposes of servicing or repair from any person to whom it is legally registered". Let's not get all in a huff about being corrected, we all make mistakes. If I'm mistaken about the meaning of 31050(a) then please let me know, I'm genuinely interested in what it means.

Anyway it seems clear that since FFL's and gunsmiths can possess registered AW's for the purposes or servicing and repair, the primary question here is whether or not a scanned custom made interior would count as gunsmithing type service. It sounds like this might be worth getting in writing from the DoJ. Perhaps I (or maybe Jason Davis) can look into it further.

bwiese
12-11-2012, 10:52 AM
Now I know that you can find parts of the penal code that state that FFL's must possess an AW permit in CA to deal in AW's, but that doesn't change the fact that there's an exemption written in black and white under penal code section 31050(a), which states "any licensed gun dealer may take possession of any assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle for the purposes of servicing or repair from any person to whom it is legally registered". Let's not get all in a huff about being corrected, we all make mistakes. If I'm mistaken about the meaning of 31050(a) then please let me know, I'm genuinely interested in what it means.


Yes, let's not. That 'licensed' refers to coverage under the relevant AW permits discussed elsewhere/adjoining [what used to be in the 12280s]. it does not mean the ordinary CA gunshop FFL + Centralized list membership. There's a <1% chance you avoid conviction on basis of clarity, or you just lose your FFL (even outside of CA licensure matters, there's a separate Fed obligation of FFLs to follow state laws).

Go directly to jail. I am right, you are wrong. I've been dealing with this crap for 6 years and am just too lazy to dig thru the new renumbered codes which have the same unchanged force as the original pre-renumbering 12775 - 1228x PC law, where 'licensed' and other similar terms of reference mean the AW permit (and not the 12072? -9? regular CA gunshot FFL stuff....)


Anyway it seems clear that since FFL's and gunsmiths can possess registered AW's for the purposes or servicing and repair,


You've been told otherwise and have not done a remotely sufficient job of reading or analysis.

the primary question here is whether or not a scanned custom made interior would count as gunsmithing type service. It sounds like this might be worth getting in writing from the DoJ. Perhaps I (or maybe Jason Davis) can look into it further.

1. If you take in any guns in your business you need an FFL. If you are not selling guns you might be able to avoid certain CA dealer requirements.

2. To take possession of an AW or 50BMG rifle, without its owner being present in *continious* immediate vicinity will at best either lose your your FFL or get you charged with a felony.

NON-AW PERMITTEE CA FFLs CANNOT POSSESS AWs IN INVENTORY AND CANNOT GUNSMITH THEM IF OWNER NOT PRESENT. Period.

WTF don't you listen? I've seen too many get in trouble. One was popped in East Bay awhile back for having a Benellie shotgun w/AW features.

Another FFL was importing AWs and modifying them to be CA-compliant OLL non-AWs for legal sale. But the problem was he was committing a felony in the first place by getting them (unmodified) from outside CA.


Yes, I am harsh and abrasive and am an arsehole: I am right, you are wrong. You have to learn how to read in context. I admit the renumbering and supposed 'clarification' of the penal code has screwed things up a bit.


3. I encourage you to pay Jason Davis money (I love our gun lawyers getting money!) for him to tell you what I have already told you.

DOJ may or may not tell you anything. It may or may not be correct. These are glorified phone clerks.

Bolt_Action
12-11-2012, 11:00 AM
Geez Bill, just saying you must be right and that's that doesn't really inspire confidence. Lots of us have been dealing with the DOJ for some time, in my case much longer than 6 years. Anyway, it's not that I'm not listening, but I would like to hear what you think 31050(a) means?

bwiese
12-11-2012, 11:11 AM
Geez Bill, you need to chill out there, I must be hitting close to a nerve or something. OK, in your opinion then: what does 31050(a) mean?

No I just don't like noobs taking a simple initial reading and saying "I can do that".

This is how orange jumpsuits happen and I get enough sad phone calls at midnight, often over stupid AW violations that I've gotten tired of gunnies losing their rights.

The answer really is, "Whatever it originally met, pre-renumbering, when it was back in the 12280s." - which I have explained.

The ACR73-derived renumbering/rearrangement can only be passive and cannot change meaning/force from its original legislatively-passed status [and supporting regulations]. If there is a change in meaning, it's invalid [and at best is a defense].

There are many usages of terms 'licensure', permit etc. in the PC. The most immediate/proximate one for your section is so-called AW permit on top of regular FFL/Centralized List status.

Really all this means is that AW permittees can work on AWs as well as sell/trade/dispose of them.

ke6guj
12-11-2012, 12:43 PM
ok, here is the old code,

12290. (a) Any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c), who lawfully possesses an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to Section 12285, in addition to the uses allowed in Section 12285, may transport the firearm between dealers or out of the state if that person is permitted pursuant to the National Firearms Act, display it at any gun show licensed by a state or local governmental entity, sell it to a resident outside the state, or sell it to a person who has been issued a permit pursuant to Section 12286. Any transporting allowed by this section must be done as required by Section 12026.1.
(b)(1) Any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c), may take possession of any assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle for the purposes of servicing or repair from any person to whom it is legally registered or who has been issued a permit to possess it pursuant to this chapter.
(2) Any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c), may transfer possession of any assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle received pursuant to paragraph (1), to a gunsmith for purposes of accomplishing service or repair of the same. Transfers are permissible only to the following persons:
(A) A gunsmith who is in the dealer's employ.
(B) A gunsmith with whom the dealer has contracted for gunsmithing services. In order for this subparagraph to apply, the gunsmith receiving the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle shall hold all of the following:
(i) A dealer's license issued pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(ii) Any business license required by a state or local governmental entity.
(c) The term "licensed gun dealer," as used in this article, means a person who is licensed pursuant to Section 12071, and who has a permit to sell assault weapons or .50 BMG rifles issued pursuant to Section 12287.


in the new code, they just refer to "licensed gun dealer" and do not mention AW permits. So, if you look up the definition of "licensed gun dealer" in the PC, you'll find this,

16790. As used in Article 5 (commencing with Section 30900) and
Article 7 (commencing with Section 31050) of Chapter 2 of Division 10
of Title 4, "licensed gun dealer" means a person who is licensed
pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, and who has a permit
to sell assault weapons or .50 BMG rifles pursuant to Section 31005.

and 31050 is the section that you were hoping would allow you to "repair" AWs by just being a "licensed gun dealer" without an AW permit.

Bolt_Action
12-11-2012, 12:52 PM
ok, here is the old code,

12290. (a) Any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c), who lawfully possesses an assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle pursuant to Section 12285, in addition to the uses allowed in Section 12285, may transport the firearm between dealers or out of the state if that person is permitted pursuant to the National Firearms Act, display it at any gun show licensed by a state or local governmental entity, sell it to a resident outside the state, or sell it to a person who has been issued a permit pursuant to Section 12286. Any transporting allowed by this section must be done as required by Section 12026.1.
(b)(1) Any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c), may take possession of any assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle for the purposes of servicing or repair from any person to whom it is legally registered or who has been issued a permit to possess it pursuant to this chapter.
(2) Any licensed gun dealer, as defined in subdivision (c), may transfer possession of any assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle received pursuant to paragraph (1), to a gunsmith for purposes of accomplishing service or repair of the same. Transfers are permissible only to the following persons:
(A) A gunsmith who is in the dealer's employ.
(B) A gunsmith with whom the dealer has contracted for gunsmithing services. In order for this subparagraph to apply, the gunsmith receiving the assault weapon or .50 BMG rifle shall hold all of the following:
(i) A dealer's license issued pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(ii) Any business license required by a state or local governmental entity.
(c) The term "licensed gun dealer," as used in this article, means a person who is licensed pursuant to Section 12071, and who has a permit to sell assault weapons or .50 BMG rifles issued pursuant to Section 12287.


in the new code, they just refer to "licensed gun dealer" and do not mention AW permits. So, if you look up the definition of "licensed gun dealer" in the PC, you'll find this,

16790. As used in Article 5 (commencing with Section 30900) and
Article 7 (commencing with Section 31050) of Chapter 2 of Division 10
of Title 4, "licensed gun dealer" means a person who is licensed
pursuant to Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive, and who has a permit
to sell assault weapons or .50 BMG rifles pursuant to Section 31005.

and 31050 is the section that you were hoping would allow you to "repair" AWs by just being a "licensed gun dealer" without an AW permit.

Ah OK, this is much better, thanks ke6guj. Strange that they would use the words "any" when describing a licensed gun dealer, when in fact they mean "only licensed gun dealers who have a permit to sell assault weapons and .50 BMG rifles".

On a related note, I found that one of the ways to relinquish a .50 BMG rifle or RAW is to remove them from the state. Does this mean it would be legal to sell a RAW if you made it clear both the buyer and their FFL had to be out of state?

Curtis
12-11-2012, 1:10 PM
Regarding the OP's friend's business idea: I would think there would be a way to work around the need to ship most guns to be scanned. Be it an database of standard guns or the use of pictures. Some way to have a client take a picture. A tape measure or dollar bill could be used for scale. Sending high dollar guns for a case seems to increase the cost and liability while cutting down on potential clients.

In regard to bwiese's "attitude", it is completely justified in my opinion. My job is to interpret codes (not legal or gun related) and it is much more of an art and history knowledge than reading comprehension. In my business, I know how specific jurisdictions read and interpret the codes...sometimes down to the specific person I will be dealing with. It is frustrating when people ignore or disregard your opinion to their own detriment. And I'm not dealing with people who could face criminal charges, life long gun bans, or jail time.

bwiese
12-11-2012, 1:26 PM
On a related note, I found that one of the ways to relinquish a .50 BMG rifle or RAW is to remove them from the state. Does this mean it would be legal to sell a RAW if you made it clear both the buyer and their FFL had to be out of state?

CA does not control your behavior in this instance outside CA.

You can thus:

1. ship them out of CA using mandatory services of CA FFL with AW permit (expen$ive given fees/labor);
2. drive or fly outside CA with AW, and meet at an out-of-state FFL to conduct transaction
3. drive/fly to point outside CA and ship gun via appropriate carrier to an FFL elsewhere.

In cases of estate/inheritance matters, the executor can cross the state lines with the AW and deliver gun to inheritor without FFL use.

Category 3 RAWs can be shipped directly to an out of state FFL if they are converted into non-AW form (BulletButton maglock, evil
features removal, shipping halves separately). Category 1 and 2 AWs should not be treated this way

['Appropriate carrier': USPS and UPS can handle long guns; USPS cannot accept handguns for shipment from CA FFLs.]

motorhead
12-12-2012, 7:57 AM
he could use non gun replicas as models, this avoids the ffl issue entirely. the gun owner(s) could send him a 3D scan.