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vantec08
12-10-2012, 7:34 AM
http://www.guns.com/wall-street-journal-gun-violence-soaring-america-11581.html


Nevertheless, you can expect that gun control advocates will be referencing this WSJ article and spouting the CDC numbers in the weeks to come. Just know that like many of the claims they often make, there is a lack of hard evidence behind it.

Also, shame on the WSJ for lazy journalism. It goes without saying, but a publication shouldn’t draw a conclusion that has the semblance of being factual based on numbers that are inherently unreliable.

kcjr1125
12-10-2012, 8:07 AM
Just planting the seeds for something else im sure

NytWolf
12-10-2012, 8:09 AM
The answer is ... gun violence, whether or not it is at the level as years before, will always be reported more by the media when the topic of "gun control" is being paraded by the political power in Office. Chalk that up to media frenzy.

vantec08
12-10-2012, 8:36 AM
Figures lie and liars figure . .. . one more time

Clownpuncher
12-10-2012, 9:08 AM
I think it's like anything else that is a hot topic in today's 24 hour news world. Information and news is much more accessable these days so it just seems like it's more prevelant.

howbobert
12-10-2012, 9:17 AM
It is not so much that gun violence is on the increase, I think violence itself is on the increase. It’s just that the MSM likes to showcase gun violence.

Decoligny
12-10-2012, 9:24 AM
If in the previous years, 20 percent of the Hospitals reported gun violence statistics, and the reported figures averaged 1,000 incidents per each percent of Hospitals reporting, that equals 20,000 incidents.

If the latest figures show that 30 percent of Hospitals reported gun violence statistics, and the reported figures averaged 1,000 incidents per each percent of Hospitals reporting, that equals 30,000 incidents.

This by no means indicates an 50% increase in the amount of gun violence. What this indicates is a 50% increase in the population included in the statistical sampling.

20,000 incidents divided by 200,000,000 people is a rate of 1 in 10,000.
30,000 incidents divided by 300,000,000 people is a rate of 1 in 10,000.

Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics.

It reminds me of a candy bar I saw once while checking out at the supermarket.

The old candy bar cost $0.25.
It had two pieces of candy in the package.
The total weight of the candy was 1.5 ounces.

The new candy bar cost $0.30 It had THREE pieces of candy in the package.
It had BIG BOLD LETTERING advertising "50% MORE PEICES", to justify the extra cost.
The total weight of the candy was 1.5 ounces.

The weight of the candy did not change, despite the amount of peices increasing.

tbhracing
12-10-2012, 9:29 AM
All I got-

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/11/e5atuby5.jpg

Curley Red
12-10-2012, 9:38 AM
Not sure if it is more crime or is it more media reporting it. If there is one thing that has grown it is the amount of media that is our there with people having video cameras in their phones. I think we are just finding out more of what has been going on because before there weren't as many people reporting on events.

Spanky8601
12-10-2012, 10:12 AM
The sad fact is that future "news" articles will cite this WSJ article to base their future "factual" basis. :confused:

Sutcliffe
12-10-2012, 12:32 PM
and used by those that seek to sway them.

Despite crime's downward trend I fully expect it to start trending up again. When it does, our previous attempts to show a link between lower crime rates are a result of higher gun ownership may bite us on the (Forrest Gump Accent) BUTTOCKS.

Librarian
12-10-2012, 1:37 PM
Jens Ludwig, a law professor and the director of the University of Chicago Crime Lab, said he was leery of any number beyond reported homicides.

“Homicide is the one thing we’re measuring well,” he said. “Everything else is subject to much more uncertainty,”

If Jens Ludwig (http://www.law.uchicago.edu/faculty/ludwig) doesn't trust it - and Ludwig is a strong anti - then it must really be weak.

Moonshine
12-10-2012, 1:42 PM
Over the last 30 years I've noticed the media like to spend more and more time discussing violence and crime. As I recall from my earlier days the weather, sports, and world news reciever far more air time.

vantec08
12-10-2012, 2:59 PM
Over the last 30 years I've noticed the media like to spend more and more time discussing violence and crime. As I recall from my earlier days the weather, sports, and world news reciever far more air time.

Yes .... and the MSM has been increasingly more interested in entertainment than delivering news.

railgunner
12-10-2012, 4:09 PM
Stupidity is soaring in American and it starts at the top.

Jedediah Munroe
12-10-2012, 4:19 PM
Lt Grossman has brought up the same point in his writings.

http://www.killology.com/print/print_trainedtokill.htm
"The second factor keeping the murder rate from being any worse is medical technology. According to the US Army Medical Service Corps, a wound that would have killed nine out of ten soldiers in World War II, nine out of ten could have survived in Vietnam. Thus, by a very conservative estimate, if we had 1940-level medical technology today, the murder rate would be ten times higher than it is. The magnitude of the problem has been held down by the development of sophisticated lifesaving skills and techniques, such as helicopter medivacs, 911 operators, paramedics, CPR, trauma centers, and medicines."

REH
12-10-2012, 4:26 PM
Figures lie and liars figure . .. . one more time

How about..................liars use percentages and percentages lie.

Librarian
12-10-2012, 4:33 PM
Just looked at WISQARS (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html) for non-fatal gunshot stats

Violence-Related Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100,000
2001 - 2011, United States, All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
Disposition: All Cases

Number of Crude Age-Adjusted
Year injuries Population Rate Rate**

2001 45,316 284,968,955 15.90 15.60
2002 41,262 287,625,193 14.35 14.12
2003 46,894 290,107,933 16.16 15.88
2004 47,834 292,805,298 16.34 16.15
2005 54,437 295,516,599 18.42 18.33
2006 56,739 298,379,912 19.02 18.74
2007 54,165 301,231,207 17.98 17.91
2008 61,406 304,093,966 20.19 20.11
2009 48,158 306,771,529 15.70 15.68
2010 59,344 308,745,538 19.22 19.35
2011 59,208 311,591,917 19.00 18.99

Graph is wobbly, but general trend is indeed up.

00Medic
12-10-2012, 4:37 PM
Shock and Awe. It's what sells. It works and evryone here talking about it proves it. How many hits did their web site get when "angry gun owners" heard about the article?

CrazyPhuD
12-10-2012, 4:50 PM
Gun violence is really going up in places with the most restrictive firearms laws. Just ask the city of Chicago.....

Moonshine
12-10-2012, 5:08 PM
Data is quantifiable and can be spun any way it needs to be. Human behavior is far from quantifiable. How did human beings ever make decisions the last 5,000 years without their precious data?

call-in
12-10-2012, 10:16 PM
I thought I heard or read somewhere that if a person legally used a firearm to defend himself from his attackers that it is also counted as gun violence. I guess technically it is, but most people who reads "gun violence" would never thought it includes legal self-defense cases.

MOA1
12-10-2012, 10:32 PM
Never in the history of the USA has the media had so much influence on the people.

stingray4540
12-11-2012, 12:39 AM
Never in the history of the USA has the media had so much influence on the people.

Never in the history of the USA has the media been so accessible to the people.

CDFingers
12-11-2012, 7:08 AM
I find it always best to go to the actual facts rather than to read someone's writing about the facts.

FBI crime stats show a continuing downward trend in national firearms homicides.

2007: 10,129
2011: 8,583

link:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

That link will take you to the table where I got the two above numbers.

This link will take you to a list of other tables:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

Here is the crime stat home page:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime

(CDF): Do not let pundits do your thinking for you. When you want to know, use your google-fu and find out from a source that deals in facts.

I agree that it was lazy journalism. It does not take into account all kinds of things, such as medtech. I think the article was designed to gin up fear.

CDFingers

CEDaytonaRydr
12-11-2012, 7:54 AM
The problem with gun control statistics is that they often do not distinguish crimes where firearms were used during the crime, from crimes where criminals were shot to stop the crime from happening. In other words, they include the crimes where firearms were used legally to defend someone against a violent criminal...

Moonshine
12-11-2012, 8:00 AM
Why just limit the view to the United States? Violence is increasing in all countries. Even in China there are now incidents of mass violence with knives and axes. It could very well be overpopulation; most animal species tend to become more violent towards each other when they are confined with ever increasing numbers... Why would humans be much different?

vantec08
12-11-2012, 8:17 AM
Why just limit the view to the United States? Violence is increasing in all countries. Even in China there are now incidents of mass violence with knives and axes. It could very well be overpopulation; most animal species tend to become more violent towards each other when they are confined with ever increasing numbers... Why would humans be much different?


Agree. The world is overpopulated, rats-in-the-shoebox scenario.

the86d
12-11-2012, 8:18 AM
Firearms in the US (Estimated 2009): 310,000,000 (probably a LOT more since Obama's Dictatorship...)
Current US population (per last census?): 311,591,917
99.4891% of Americans could be armed if citizens only had one firearm each...

12,996 -- Homicides in the United States in 2010.
8,775 -- Homicides by firearm in 2010.

This means you were 0.0028161834506124% likely to be killed by a firearm in 2010.

8583 - Homicides by firearm - 2011

This means you were 0.0027545643939153% likely to die by firearm in a homicide in 2011

32,367 -- Motor vehicle Deaths 2011

You were 0.010387625042276% likely to die by Motor Vehicle accident in 2011

So this means we all were 377.1059070255088% more likely to die by motor vehicle than a firearm, in 2011... right?
(I did the math on Windows calc, with a copy-paste.)
No really, LET'S BAN IDIOTS FROM DRIVING IF THEY LACK THE COMMON SINCE TO SIGNAL (90%), and traffic will flow like it's NOT TJ!

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/13/more-guns-more-murders-part-ii/

Moonshine
12-11-2012, 8:35 AM
I believe I read somewhere (and I wish I remember where because its almost humorous) that you're more likely to be struck by lightning than a bullet.

Vladimir
12-11-2012, 8:45 AM
Firearms in the US (Estimated 2009): 310,000,000 (probably a LOT more since Obama's Dictatorship...)
Current US population (per last census?): 311,591,917
99.4891% of Americans could be armed if citizens only had one firearm each...

12,996 -- Homicides in the United States in 2010.
8,775 -- Homicides by firearm in 2010.

This means you were 0.0028161834506124% likely to be killed by a firearm in 2010.

8583 - Homicides by firearm - 2011

This means you were 0.0027545643939153% likely to die by firearm in a homicide in 2011

32,367 -- Motor vehicle Deaths 2011

You were 0.010387625042276% likely to die by Motor Vehicle accident in 2011

So this means we all were 377.1059070255088% more likely to die by motor vehicle than a firearm, in 2011... right?
(I did the math on Windows calc, with a copy-paste.)
No really, LET'S BAN IDIOTS FROM DRIVING IF THEY LACK THE COMMON SINCE TO SIGNAL (90%), and traffic will flow like it's NOT TJ!

http://www.humanevents.com/2012/08/13/more-guns-more-murders-part-ii/

Interesting statistics

Fundamentals
12-11-2012, 8:54 AM
From Uniform Crime Report

Robbery:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_15_crime_trends_additional_information_about _selected_offenses_by_population_group_2010-2011.xls
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-21

Murder:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-20

Aggravated Assault:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-22

Overall Changes from 2010 to 2011:
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_15_crime_trends_additional_information_about _selected_offenses_by_population_group_2010-2011.xls

Colonel Monk
12-11-2012, 9:58 AM
It's been shown before that homicide rates and the economy are related.

When the economy is flailing, there is unrest in the population and some people turn to crime. I don't mean murder per se, but robberies, carjacking, burglary (and the possibility that homeowners shoot the robbers) and other types of illegal activity, drug smuggling, etc...

It's really not suprising in the least.

CM

Colonel Monk
12-11-2012, 10:58 AM
I'd like to know what percentage of gun-related homicides are registered legal firearms vs unregistered, stolen, or otherwise illegal firearms.

I'm guessing that tells to much of a pro-gun tale and you won't find those studies....

Decoligny
12-11-2012, 11:36 AM
I find it always best to go to the actual facts rather than to read someone's writing about the facts.

FBI crime stats show a continuing downward trend in national firearms homicides.

2007: 10,129
2011: 8,583

link:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

That link will take you to the table where I got the two above numbers.

This link will take you to a list of other tables:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded/expanded-homicide-data

Here is the crime stat home page:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime

(CDF): Do not let pundits do your thinking for you. When you want to know, use your google-fu and find out from a source that deals in facts.

I agree that it was lazy journalism. It does not take into account all kinds of things, such as medtech. I think the article was designed to gin up fear.

CDFingers

The author of the article starts out by stating that firearms homicide rates have been going down.

The author is trying to say that while gun HOMICIDES have indeed declined, GUN VIOLENCE has increased.

The FBI also does not track GUN VIOLENCE as a seperate statistic. They only show "Violent Crime" and group all the different types together.

I agree that it was lazy journalism, and that the facts do not support the conclusions.

I also have to point out that the data that you have linked to do not contain any breakout to enable someone to either confirm or disprove the assertions made by the author.

CDFingers
12-12-2012, 4:56 AM
I'm just afraid someone's going to shoot me with a car...

CDFingers

Fundamentals
12-12-2012, 4:46 PM
I'd like to know what percentage of gun-related homicides are registered legal firearms vs unregistered, stolen, or otherwise illegal firearms.

I'm guessing that tells to much of a pro-gun tale and you won't find those studies....
They do have those statistics, but they are generally not published in reports.

Librarian
12-12-2012, 5:17 PM
I'd like to know what percentage of gun-related homicides are registered legal firearms vs unregistered, stolen, or otherwise illegal firearms.

I'm guessing that tells to much of a pro-gun tale and you won't find those studies....

That implies two things:

1) Registration is a good thing

2) all 'legal' guns are registered.

Neither one is true. For example, in California only 'registered assault weapons' are registered long guns - all the rest are not known to the State by make/model/caliber nor are they associated with an owner.