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phrogg111
12-08-2012, 7:42 PM
So, most of us have seen flaregun inserts for 26.5mm flare guns, sold by places like cheaperthandirt.

If I understand correctly, inserting one of these constitutes "manufacturing a firearm" under federal law, and because the inserts are rifled, they are not "AOWs" under federal law.

Also, if I understand correctly, putting one in while in CA constitutes an "unsafe handgun" because it is a single shot gun with a barrel length of less than 6" and an overall length of less than 10".

Is there any reason a 10" flare insert would be illegal if it had a rifled barrel in it? Overall length and barrel length definitions would be exceeded easily.

jeffxbr
12-08-2012, 8:27 PM
Good question! I been wanting to buy one... OC armory in Laguna Hills sells the launchers..

Quiet
12-08-2012, 8:53 PM
I stayed away from it (flare gun + rifled insert) because I thought it fell under CA's "zip gun" laws.




Penal Code 16590
As used in this part, "generally prohibited weapon" means any of the following:
(z) A zip gun, as prohibited by Section 33600.

Penal Code 17360
As used in this part, "zip gun" means any weapon or device that meets all of the following criteria:
(a) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(c) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(d) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion.

Penal Code 33600
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any zip gun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

Doheny
12-08-2012, 9:02 PM
A no-go with the ATF, regardless of the length. http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/05/050406-openletter-nfa-flare-inserts.html

killmime1234
12-08-2012, 9:04 PM
I stayed away from it (flare gun + rifled insert) because I thought it fell under CA's "zip gun" laws.




Penal Code 16590
As used in this part, "generally prohibited weapon" means any of the following:
(z) A zip gun, as prohibited by Section 33600.

Penal Code 17360
As used in this part, "zip gun" means any weapon or device that meets all of the following criteria:
(a) It was not imported as a firearm by an importer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(b) It was not originally designed to be a firearm by a manufacturer licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(c) No tax was paid on the weapon or device nor was an exemption from paying tax on that weapon or device granted under Section 4181 and Subchapters F (commencing with Section 4216) and G (commencing with Section 4221) of Chapter 32 of Title 26 of the United States Code, as amended, and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(d) It is made or altered to expel a projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion.

Penal Code 33600
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any zip gun is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.

An exemption is granted if you make less than 50 guns per year.

killmime1234
12-08-2012, 9:06 PM
A no-go with the ATF, regardless of the length. http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2006/05/050406-openletter-nfa-flare-inserts.html

It's only a "no-go" with the ATF if it's smooth bore, not rifled.

Adeodatus
12-08-2012, 10:43 PM
Would it be legal to do something very similar to this but slightly different.

Say this. An 18" 37mm 12ga adapter?

Construction of a shotgun?

Ex: 12" Spikes tactical flare launcher with a 2 piece screw apart 12ga barrel adapter that is 18" or longer making it an overall length of 26"+?

From what I see. It would be a homemade shotgun with no grip or stock that has a barrel of 18"+ and an overall length of 26"+.

Go or No-go?

phrogg111
12-08-2012, 11:39 PM
Would it be legal to do something very similar to this but slightly different.

Say this. An 18" 37mm 12ga adapter?

Construction of a shotgun?

Ex: 12" Spikes tactical flare launcher with a 2 piece screw apart 12ga barrel adapter that is 18" or longer making it an overall length of 26"+?

From what I see. It would be a homemade shotgun with no grip or stock that has a barrel of 18"+ and an overall length of 26"+.

Go or No-go?


That's the other one I was wondering about.

Overall length would need to be 26" or 28" though, so I'm thinking 27.5" barrel.

Also, if it wasn't imported as a firearm, but is converted to a firearm, would that interfere with CA's zip gun laws, or would you just be a "manufacturer" of a firearm as clearly it wasn't designed for this, but has been completely redesigned?

phrogg111
12-08-2012, 11:41 PM
An exemption is granted if you make less than 50 guns per year.

That law seems like a total joke, as the "exemption" is provided to anyone making their own firearms for personal use only, and provided they don't make too many.

Adeodatus
12-09-2012, 12:15 AM
That's the other one I was wondering about.

Overall length would need to be 26" or 28" though, so I'm thinking 27.5" barrel.

Also, if it wasn't imported as a firearm, but is converted to a firearm, would that interfere with CA's zip gun laws, or would you just be a "manufacturer" of a firearm as clearly it wasn't designed for this, but has been completely redesigned?

Well if it really is a go, I just found a new project for my CNC, Mill, and Lathe class!

johnny1290
12-09-2012, 2:41 AM
Even if it's legal, I'd be surprised if you wouldn't get arrested if a cop saw it.

That said, I think they're really cool and I've looked into them myself :)

phrogg111
12-09-2012, 4:02 AM
Well if it really is a go, I just found a new project for my CNC, Mill, and Lathe class!

How's that class treating you? I really want to learn to use those things.

ke6guj
12-09-2012, 9:44 AM
That law seems like a total joke, as the "exemption" is provided to anyone making their own firearms for personal use only, and provided they don't make too many.

realize that the CA zip gun law was written when there wasn't a federal FAET exemption for <50 firearms a year. it used to be that FAET was due when just one firearm was made.

now that the feds modified the FAET rules, it basically neutered CA's law. That's what happens when you rely on another jurisdiction's rules that if changed, will alter your law.

Adeodatus
12-09-2012, 3:15 PM
How's that class treating you? I really want to learn to use those things.

It's actually about to start. I have been prepping for it by learning the basics online. There are a few really good lessons on YouTube.

12voltguy
12-09-2012, 3:20 PM
It's actually about to start. I have been prepping for it by learning the basics online. There are a few really good lessons on YouTube.

links?

Meplat
12-09-2012, 4:57 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how enterprising gunnies continue to come up with strange, wonderful, impractical, and nearly useless new ways to get into trouble.:rolleyes:

Adeodatus
12-09-2012, 7:59 PM
links?

Start here for this one. Follow the chapters and absorb the basics.
U99asuDT97I

Here is another one. I really enjoyed this series.
H0AyVUfl8-k

Adeodatus
12-09-2012, 8:03 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how enterprising gunnies continue to come up with strange, wonderful, impractical, and nearly useless new ways to get into trouble.:rolleyes:

lol

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m06tdb4Ngp1qji09vo1_500.jpg

12voltguy
12-09-2012, 8:06 PM
Start here for this one. Follow the chapters and absorb the basics.
U99asuDT97I

Here is another one. I really enjoyed this series.
H0AyVUfl8-k

thx
I just fixed motor on my 16speed mill
got a new vice and chuck
time to work on my 80%er's and maybe do a left side charge ar15

Adeodatus
12-09-2012, 8:56 PM
thx
I just fixed motor on my 16speed mill
got a new vice and chuck
time to work on my 80%er's and maybe do a left side charge ar15

Glad I could help!

Cool! Im right behind you on that. I might be picking up a mini mill from harbor freight and starting to do my own 80% lowers in the near future.

phrogg111
12-10-2012, 12:30 AM
Glad I could help!

Cool! Im right behind you on that. I might be picking up a mini mill from harbor freight and starting to do my own 80% lowers in the near future.

I just got done using one of those! Lol. A good friend of mine bought that mill on my advice, and there's a lathe coming tomorrow!

Turns out that with the vise I ordered:

http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G7156-Premium-Milling-Vise/dp/B0000DD66V/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1355127958&sr=8-3&keywords=mill+vise

I had to pull the rotary table off the vise just to be able to use it with my mill. Also, I needed a hand drill to drill the 3/8ths inch safety hole, because the up/down axis on the mini mill is so small (and the vise is so tall). The left/right is huge. The forward/back is small, too, though.

I also realized a little bit too late that there's a stop for the Z axis (up/down). I could have just drilled one measured hole to depth, then set the stop, then drilled a ton more without having to measure or do passes and spend all that time vacuuming stuff out.

Aluminum - use a 2 flute bit. I actually discovered that a 2 flute upspiral router bit from Lowe's works better than all of the 1/4" 4-flute bits that I ordered for removing large amounts of material.

Anyway - I can't wait. I'm teaching myself so far, lol. Started with a drill press, then got a mill vise, now I'm on an actual mill - loving life!

Adeodatus
12-10-2012, 10:15 AM
I just got done using one of those! Lol. A good friend of mine bought that mill on my advice, and there's a lathe coming tomorrow!

Turns out that with the vise I ordered:

http://www.amazon.com/Grizzly-G7156-Premium-Milling-Vise/dp/B0000DD66V/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1355127958&sr=8-3&keywords=mill+vise

I had to pull the rotary table off the vise just to be able to use it with my mill. Also, I needed a hand drill to drill the 3/8ths inch safety hole, because the up/down axis on the mini mill is so small (and the vise is so tall). The left/right is huge. The forward/back is small, too, though.

I also realized a little bit too late that there's a stop for the Z axis (up/down). I could have just drilled one measured hole to depth, then set the stop, then drilled a ton more without having to measure or do passes and spend all that time vacuuming stuff out.

Aluminum - use a 2 flute bit. I actually discovered that a 2 flute upspiral router bit from Lowe's works better than all of the 1/4" 4-flute bits that I ordered for removing large amounts of material.

Anyway - I can't wait. I'm teaching myself so far, lol. Started with a drill press, then got a mill vise, now I'm on an actual mill - loving life!

Awesome! Thanks for the info!