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carsonwales
08-06-2007, 5:20 PM
Hypothetical: If went out of state and purchased a 30 round mag, how could I modify it (to a 10 round config) prior to re-entry into the state and stay legal?

How are the present 10/30 mags done?

Are they cross riveted? or are they plugged like shotgun for hunting ducks?

Does someone sell a kit that will convert a 30 or 20 to 10 rounds?

It would seem that a plug of sorts should be available that would slip inside of the spring after removing the floor plate.

Is there a 'method' in the law that states how the magazine must be converted? Is it legal for civilians to modify the mags themselves to 'comply' with the law?

The reason I ask is that 10/30 mags are ridiculously expensive...and regular old 30 rounders are cheaper than dirt out of state.

Comments? Suggestions?

WolfMansDad
08-06-2007, 5:36 PM
Most magazines are easy to modify. All you'd have to do is place something between the follower and floor plate that would prevent the follower from going all the way down. A dowel rod would work, once you cut it to the right length. A pencil would probably also work. Just make sure the spring doesn't bind and is still free to compress.

Mechanically, such a conversion would be dead simple. Is it legal? Well, that's another question. I would have guessed not, but three years ago I would have guessed you couldn't get away with pinning the mag on an unlisted lower, either. :)

slick_711
08-06-2007, 5:40 PM
You may also find some decent info in the first thread you started on this same topic. ;)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=701928#post701928

carsonwales
08-06-2007, 5:42 PM
Most magazines are easy to modify. All you'd have to do is place something between the follower and floor plate that would prevent the follower from going all the way down. A dowel rod would work, once you cut it to the right length. A pencil would probably also work. Just make sure the spring doesn't bind and is still free to compress.

Mechanically, such a conversion would be dead simple. Is it legal? Well, that's another question. I would have guessed not, but three years ago I would have guessed you couldn't get away with pinning the mag on an unlisted lower, either. :)

I have posted this in two places...General Gun and Legal....

Here I want to know the legality of it. What constitutes the degree of permanence to modify a magazine?

Does the same test of magazine release work? ie requiring a tool?

And let me make it real clear. I am asking this question because I do not want to break or flaunt the law....

What is the legal standard for permanence in regards to modifying a magazine so that it DOES comply with the law?

Would it be legal to purchase magazines out of state, modify them out state in accordance with the 'standard' of permanency that the law would be happy with, and then import them into the state?

Legal Eagles please chime in here...

edit: One more question. If a legally owned 30 round mag was to be converted to a 10 round mag...does it cease to be a 30 round mag forever? In other words have you effectively disposed of the 30 round mag and now own a 10 round mag that can no longer ever be converted back despite the fact you legally purchased it and possessed it prior to the ban?

carsonwales
08-06-2007, 5:43 PM
You may also find some decent info in the first thread you started on this same topic. ;)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=701928#post701928

This thread is for the legal reponses....that thread is more for mechanical how to's....

Thanks

slick_711
08-06-2007, 5:48 PM
Would it be legal to purchase magazines out of state, modify them out state in accordance with the 'standard' of permanency that the law would be happy with, and then import them into the state?

That would be perfectly legal. I won't attempt to tell you what that standard of permanency is though, because I haven't the faintest. If you can find the answer to that, your suggested means of doing so would be fine.

But is flying/driving out of state to do all that still going to be less expensive than buying the commercial 10/30s? Personally I see no need for them anyway, 10rd mags are less obtrusive and I don't care about a tacticool look.

However, if your aim is 10/30 mags, you can modify them out of state and then bring them in. For that matter, you could modify the 30s you mentioned already having and then use them in your OLL without ever leaving the state. Just make sure no 30 round magazines touch your OLLs prior to modification.

bwiese
08-06-2007, 5:50 PM
There is no specified degree of permanence in reducing mag capacity to 10rds or less. But the law does use the term 'permanent'.

To me, to be safe, the modification should be so stout that the mag is well-nigh destroyed if it attempts were made to reconvert it to back to a higher-capacity magazine.

Remember, you not only have the permanence issue with the creation of a hicap mag, this mag must be guaranteed to be 10rds or less to also not trigger the 2nd definition of assault weapon. If you don't do this right it could be a double whammy.

I am not fond of homebrew 10-round restrictions. Someone will likely get in trouble.

So far the *only* restricted looks-like-30/works-like-10 mags I would trust are the modded ones done by Calgunners JPGlee1 and rssslvr. These guys understand the law & consequences and it'd take a nuclear weapon to get these 10 rounders apart.

Even some mfgrs of 10rd mags for special non-AR applications (who shall remain nameless) had issues understanding this, but I hope they are clear now after I talked to them.

rssslvr
08-06-2007, 5:51 PM
Well what kind of gun are you talking about having 10/30 mags for?Lets see,the mag parts alone cost around $10-15 for an 10/30 AK mag,then the cost of having the parts shipped here and the cost of materials to block them down to 10 rounds and then the time it takes for someone to make them.$30 is not all that much for a 10/30 when you think about it.

carsonwales
08-06-2007, 6:00 PM
Well what kind of gun are you talking about having 10/30 mags for?Lets see,the mag parts alone cost around $10-15 for an 10/30 AK mag,then the cost of having the parts shipped here and the cost of materials to block them down to 10 rounds and then the time it takes for someone to make them.$30 is not all that much for a 10/30 when you think about it.

OLL 15

Well if you could take a 10 dollar gunshow mag and pull the plate and then drop in a twenty five cent plastic plug and then reinstall the floor plate your 3 to 1 up over buying the absurd 30 buck a crack 10/30's

carsonwales
08-06-2007, 6:04 PM
There is no specified degree of permanence in reducing mag capacity to 10rds or less. But the law does use the term 'permanent'.

To me, to be safe, the modification should be so stout that the mag is well-nigh destroyed if it attempts were made to reconvert it to back to a higher-capacity magazine.

Remember, you not only have the permanence issue with the creation of a hicap mag, this mag must be guaranteed to be 10rds or less to also not trigger the 2nd definition of assault weapon. If you don't do this right it could be a double whammy.

I am not fond of homebrew 10-round restrictions. Someone will likely get in trouble.

So far the *only* restricted looks-like-30/works-like-10 mags I would trust are the modded ones done by Calgunners JPGlee1 and rssslvr. These guys understand the law & consequences and it'd take a nuclear weapon to get these 10 rounders apart.

Even some mfgrs of 10rd mags for special non-AR applications (who shall remain nameless) had issues understanding this, but I hope they are clear now after I talked to them.

Thanks Bill...

So then riveting the floor plate wouldn't cut then?

I have this near useless supply of 30 round mags...I guess I should just be thankful I have them at all....

rssslvr
08-06-2007, 6:07 PM
OLL 15

Well if you could take a 10 dollar gunshow mag and pull the plate and then drop in a twenty five cent plastic plug and then reinstall the floor plate your 3 to 1 up over buying the absurd 30 buck a crack 10/30's

I wish it were that easy.If you knew what went into making 10/30s and did the work you would know that $30 is not absurd.If you make them right you make very little profit for your time spent

Surveyor
08-06-2007, 6:43 PM
...I have this near useless supply of 30 round mags...I guess I should just be thankful I have them at all....

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Don't convert them to tens!!!!!

If you truly have a large supply of hi-caps, then you should do a MonsterMan build.

I just did one and I can tell you that it looks much better in person than online. I always thought they looked pretty lame in pictures (sorry MM) so I put off buying one. In person they look fine. See:

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w1/1021matt/MattsPics746.jpg

After one trip to the range with a featureless build and a stack of 30 rounders, I was converted ;).

carsonwales
08-06-2007, 6:44 PM
I wish it were that easy.If you knew what went into making 10/30s and did the work you would know that $30 is not absurd.If you make them right you make very little profit for your time spent

Well what is the process then? What do you do to make them 10/30's?

carsonwales
08-06-2007, 6:46 PM
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Don't convert them to tens!!!!!

If you truly have a large supply of hi-caps, then you should do a MonsterMan build.

I just did one and I can tell you that it looks much better in person than online. I always thought they looked pretty lame in pictures (sorry MM) so I put off buying one. In person they look fine. See:

pic removed

After one trip to the range with a featureless build and a stack of 30 rounders, I was converted ;).

Nice stick...

I got em alright...whole pile of em [fully legal 30's]

The MM OLL is going to be my second to next OLL build...you convinced me...but I already got a SHTF/Kiss Carb build that will be done this week with a BB

hoffmang
08-07-2007, 10:07 PM
I think you can get some guidance on what constitutes permanence from the DOJ definition they attempted to create for permanent magazines. Welding or rivets seemed to be enough.

Either way, don't waste your legal 30's. Just get a few 10s and build a MM or U-15 build.

-Gene

XDshooter
08-07-2007, 10:43 PM
What about all the C-products mags. They just put a rivet in the mags.

Carbide
08-07-2007, 10:45 PM
i need to get a mmg or u15 build going on, tired of using my 100rd beta c only in nevada.