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View Full Version : Crazy Idea for Featureless with what most would call a pistol grip


FXR
12-04-2012, 2:27 PM
The flow chart defines a pistol grip as:

"Definition of a "Pistol Grip" PC 12276.1 & CCR 11 § 5469 (d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

On a standard AR, the top of the exposed portion of the trigger seems to line up with the horizontal seam between the receiver and the A2 grip, as seen here:
http://www.impactguns.com/data/default/images/catalog/535/colt69201.jpg

What about a handrest used such that the web of the shooters hand is forced above this line? The handrest below, properly adjusted, could easily force the web of the shooting hand above the highest exposed portion of the trigger:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41hcIMD9bjL._SL500_SS500_.jpg

This particular handrest might not be aggressive enough, but one that was larger in diameter or had a wing on the outside, ensuring that the hand couldn't spill off of it, might be better.

Alternatively, a grip could be designed with a grip safety located near the top of the radius, to prevent firing unless it was depressed by the shooting hand. [Edit: Pic of this added:]

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=183131&d=1354747912

Am I crazy for thinking that this might escape the definition of pistol grip?

The biggest problem with the handrest idea that I see is that if adjusted for a large hand, a smaller handed person could still be breaking the law. This is one way in which the grip safety idea seams superior, although it is more complex.

KarLorian
12-04-2012, 2:35 PM
like this?

https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/images/exm1/TYPE_I.JPG

https://www.exilemachine.net/shop/exile-machine-hammerhead-ar-15-grip-black-1.html

FXR
12-04-2012, 2:49 PM
like this?


No, just like it's intended, just adjusted high enough to make sure the web of the hand is above the top of the trigger.

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/6641/sdc10182w.jpg

sdub518
12-04-2012, 3:01 PM
Good luck with that

CitaDeL
12-04-2012, 3:04 PM
So, are you volunteering to be a test case in this interpretation of the definition?

the86d
12-04-2012, 3:06 PM
I still don't get it, as the action is not part of the buffer tube, so I would think that even a monsterman with the fin cut off would place the web of your hand not * below the action...

FXR
12-04-2012, 3:15 PM
My interpretation is that the "conspicuously protrudes" and the "action of the weapon" are part of the title of the definition, but not the definition itself, which is based on the relationship between the top of the exposed portion of the trigger and the shooting hand.

If CGF thinks it's defensible I just might be a test case. You'd rather hear from me now than after my arrest right?

Fate
12-04-2012, 3:30 PM
The prosecution will hand the gun to a tiny little asian woman and her hand will in no way be in a legally defensible position. Sorry, but this isn't a good idea.

CitaDeL
12-04-2012, 3:41 PM
My interpretation is that the "conspicuously protrudes" and the "action of the weapon" are part of the title of the definition, but not the definition itself, which is based on the relationship between the top of the exposed portion of the trigger and the shooting hand.

If CGF thinks it's defensible I just might be a test case. You'd rather hear from me now than after my arrest right?

I dont think it is defensible because you are either 1) attempting to make a legal distinction that would be defeated by as someone suggested, handing it to a asian woman or 2) attempting to reinvent the mousetrap with features that have already been invented.

Librarian
12-04-2012, 3:52 PM
My interpretation is that the "conspicuously protrudes" and the "action of the weapon" are part of the title of the definition, but not the definition itself, which is based on the relationship between the top of the exposed portion of the trigger and the shooting hand.

If CGF thinks it's defensible I just might be a test case. You'd rather hear from me now than after my arrest right?

Ah, no - not a title; it's 30515(a) (a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also
means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action
of the weapon.
which 11 CCR 5469 says means (d) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

FXR
12-04-2012, 9:08 PM
Librarian, If 11 CCR 5469 defines (says it means) the 30515(a)(1)(A), how is the content of 30515(a)(1)(A) not a "title" or "reference" to 11 CCR 5469?

[Edit: Thank you Librarian, I agree that "definition" is most appropriate and what I was trying to convey.]

Clearly the legislative intent was to prohibit scary looking pistol grips, but they may have written a flawed technical description of what constitutes a pistol grip. "A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" is subjective because "conspicuous" is not an empirical quality. 11 CCR 5469 therefore defines the above very specifically; thus any "pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can not be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" is not prohibited by the statute.

Below is a representation of my grip safety idea in Tactical Red. This would make no distinction in hand size, although a handrest might be helpful in achieving an effective grip.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=183131&stc=1&d=1354747928

Edit: clipped pic and added an arrow showing movement of the new grip safety. Safety works just like on an XD, hinged on top, must be depressed to fire, forcing the web of the hand to remain above the top of the exposed portion of the trigger.

Librarian
12-04-2012, 10:19 PM
Librarian, If 11 CCR 5469 defines (says it means) the 30515(a)(1)(A), how is the content of 30515(a)(1)(A) not a "title" or "reference" to 11 CCR 5469?

Clearly the legislative intent was to prohibit scary looking pistol grips, but they may have written a flawed technical description of what constitutes a pistol grip. "A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" is subjective because "conspicuous" is not an empirical quality. 11 CCR 5469 therefore defines the above very specifically; thus any "pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can not be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing" is not prohibited by the statute.

Below is a representation of my grip safety idea in Tactical Red. This would make no distinction in hand size, although a handrest might be helpful in achieving an effective grip.



An explicit bit of a Penal Code section isn't a title.

Ordinarily, one could take a 'definition' and make an in-line substitution. For example, PC 25505 says 25505 In order for a firearm to be exempted under this article,
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall
be unloaded and kept in a locked container, and the course of
travel shall include only those deviations between authorized
locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.and PC 16580 says As used in Sections 17740, 23925, 25105, 25205, and 25610,
and in Article 3 (commencing with Section 25505) of Chapter 2
of Division 5 of Title 4, "locked container" means
a secure container
that is fully enclosed and
locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar
locking device. so 25505 could be re-written as

'25505 In order for a firearm to be exempted under this article,
while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall
be unloaded and kept in a secure container
that is fully enclosed and
locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar
locking device., and the course of
travel shall include only those deviations between authorized
locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.'

I won't argue that the 11 CCR 'definition' language is 'good', but it would still be possible to make that in-line substitution --
"(a) Notwithstanding Section 30510, "assault weapon" also
means any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to
accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."
-- but we really don't know anything more than we did in the first place.

If we can understand anything at all from that - and CA-DOJ purports to understand - it would appear that anything that allows a somewhat 'normal' pistol grip would not qualify as 'not a pistol grip'; I can't quite see what your picture portrays, but it seems to me, unless I am mistaken, that it moves the place for the web of the hand up - but does not prevent taking a normal grip on the handle there by moving the hand lower.

Meta: can you trim that picture smaller? Really blows up the forum display.

mej16489
12-05-2012, 11:52 AM
I can't quite see what your picture portrays, but it seems to me, unless I am mistaken, that it moves the place for the web of the hand up - but does not prevent taking a normal grip on the handle there by moving the hand lower.

Meta: can you trim that picture smaller? Really blows up the forum display.

I think he's talking about incorporating a grip safety into the back of the lower receiver such that it would require the web of the hand to be above the action of the trigger.

Saber2Golf
12-05-2012, 1:55 PM
All I can think of is how uncomfortable it sounds having my hand crammed against the buffer tube, when there are already comfortable and effective homemade and off-the-shelf solutions to the problem.