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View Full Version : Change on veteransí gun rights lights fire


vantec08
12-04-2012, 2:05 PM
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/3/change-on-veterans-gun-rights-lights-fire/?page=all#pagebreak



"A major defense-spending bill hit an unexpected bump on its journey through the U.S. Senate over an amendment on veteransí gun rights, which devolved into a heated floor debate and foreshadows a potential battle over Democratsí vows to tweak the filibuster rules in the clubby, traditionally collegial body."

OleCuss
12-04-2012, 2:20 PM
The fun part is that the Democrat refusal to protect the rights of veterans could result in a nice court case which could help a whole lot of people who have been denied their rights without adjudication.

There simply have to be lawyers paying attention.

There should also be Representatives who are going to ensure that anything that comes out of conference committee includes the provision protecting veterans' rights. I'm not counting on it, though.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-04-2012, 4:17 PM
The fun part is that the Democrat refusal to protect the rights of veterans could result in a nice court case which could help a whole lot of people who have been denied their rights without adjudication.

There simply have to be lawyers paying attention.

There should also be Representatives who are going to ensure that anything that comes out of conference committee includes the provision protecting veterans' rights. I'm not counting on it, though.

The truth is that neither side actually cares about US Service Veterans. They simply say they do in order to get elected, or to pander to donors at fundraising events.

If politicians actually cared about US service veterans, they would fix the problems within the VA healthcare system that I experience every time I go in there. It's a national disgrace, if you ask me... :mad:

vantec08
12-04-2012, 5:30 PM
The truth is that neither side actually cares about US Service Veterans. They simply say they do in order to get elected, or to pander to donors at fundraising events.

If politicians actually cared about US service veterans, they would fix the problems within the VA healthcare system that I experience every time I go in there. It's a national disgrace, if you ask me... :mad:

I vote for this one.

GaryV
12-04-2012, 7:33 PM
The truth is that neither side actually cares about US Service Veterans. They simply say they do in order to get elected, or to pander to donors at fundraising events.

If politicians actually cared about US service veterans, they would fix the problems within the VA healthcare system that I experience every time I go in there. It's a national disgrace, if you ask me... :mad:

As a 3rd generation veteran with a lot of experience with how the government treats vets, I agree completely.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-04-2012, 8:07 PM
As a 3rd generation veteran with a lot of experience with how the government treats vets, I agree completely.

It's enough to drive you mad, honestly. My experience with the VA is what turned me off of socialized medicine. I mean, if this is how the government is going to treat our veterans, how bad do you think the rest of the "serfs" are going to be treated? :eek:

Plus, there's no recourse. If you complain to the "patient advocate", he/she is just as useless as the rest of the VA employees. You can't really sue them because they are a government agency. It's disgusting... :mad:

We're wondering off topic, but suffice it to say that I don't believe the author of this bill cares about our well being, and I'm more than sure that the opponents to this bill don't either.

OleCuss
12-04-2012, 10:12 PM
Oh, come on guys! Your hopes of the VA ever being fixed are just not reasonable. There is no hope for that system and I have long considered it the obvious illustration of why you don't want the government running healthcare.

Some of the stuff that comes out of the VA is just bizarre. . .

sunborder
12-04-2012, 10:38 PM
Mom worked for VA in first job as a nurse. Never went back. Worst experience of her life (bureaucrats, not patients).

Father still receives VA benefits. Not impressed with VA either.

Lived in a country with socialized medicine: Never had a problem getting in to see a doctor within 1 business day, paid practically nothing outside of national insurance fee, had excellent quality of care, and could go to damn near any doctor I wanted. I have excellent coverage here in Kali (by US standards), but it doesn't hold a candle to the convenience of care I got under socialized medicine.

As for protecting vet's gun rights, practically none of the a**-clowns in congress really want the people to be armed. Kind of a joke to expect them to do any better than this.

wash
12-04-2012, 10:50 PM
A friend of mine had his father die of easily treatable cancer in a paradise of socialized medicine. I wonder what went wrong?

Meplat
12-05-2012, 3:46 PM
I am a veteran who is eligible for VA medical benefits, but I have never tried to access them because of the horror stories I heard from my friends who are vets. I have been blessed with good health care through my employer most of my life. And I couldn’t see overloading the system when I had other options.

That said; my father in law died in a veteran’s hospital and I found the doctors and nurses to be very competent, compassionate, and accommodating people.

sunborder
12-05-2012, 7:10 PM
A friend of mine had his father die of easily treatable cancer in a paradise of socialized medicine. I wonder what went wrong?

Well, odds are that neither my experience, nor your friend's father's is enough to create a statistical universe. Just anecdotes.

My mother passed from what was probably an easily treatable cancer that went untreated because a #$%$#@%$#@^$@# of an oncologist took her as a patient then stopped making appointments right after he diagnosed her because he was retiring. He didn't bother to let his patients know, just saying that they would "call us back." Took a month to get get it straightened out, and by that time it had metastasized. That happened here. She was a nurse. Had excellent health coverage from her health-care industry employer. But she couldn't just go and see her friends/former co-workers that were some of the best oncologists/oncology nurses in SoCal--because of our lovely private insurance system. It killed her. Doesn't mean that private insurance is a bad system, just an example of one way that this particular system failed. *shrug*

Getting back to the thread, though, the idea that these vets could be stripped of their rights without due process is absurd, and reprehensible, but it's part of a long-standing trend in this country of stripping away people's rights in favor of big government and big business. There's a social contract that we take care of these people who have sacrificed for us. Firefighters, teachers, medical workers, cops, and especially soldiers are largely motivated by altruism, and a sometimes (we hate to admit it) naive desire to make the world a better place. That we would then turn around and stigmatize a group of these people because those very sacrifices have taken their toll on them, *without due process* is a travesty. The cynic in me, though, doesn't see this country taking care of our soldiers once they have returned and those wars are out of the public mind. I wish it were different.

OleCuss
12-05-2012, 7:27 PM
Well, actually, the VA as a system is not about taking care of the vets. It is about protecting bureaucratic fiefdoms.

There are some very good personnel within the system who really do want to do the best thing for the veteran, but the system sabotages that.

In this case, the bureaucracy is considered omniscient and wise and is thus trusted to make durable decisions about the rights of the veteran. I even suspect that most of the time they will make the right decision - but I don't think anyone should ever have their rights revoked for anything but a very short time period without representation in a court of law.

cdtx2001
12-05-2012, 7:42 PM
So without reading the article, what are the snags on veteran's gun rights? Lemme guess, they want to limit them somehow...

Dieseldog
12-05-2012, 9:33 PM
The truth is that neither side actually cares about US Service Veterans. They simply say they do in order to get elected, or to pander to donors at fundraising events.

If politicians actually cared about US service veterans, they would fix the problems within the VA healthcare system that I experience every time I go in there. It's a national disgrace, if you ask me... :mad:

I agree. Kaiser is better than the VA.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-05-2012, 9:37 PM
Well, actually, the VA as a system is not about taking care of the vets. It is about protecting bureaucratic fiefdoms.

It's a form of social welfare for piss-poor healthcare providers who can't hack it in the real world. In the VA system, patients are forced to see them (whether they want to, or not), they can treat their patients like garbage (because they can't be fired), and it's nearly impossible to sue them when they screw up.

I really think the veterans would be better off without the Veterans Administration. Just privatize everything and refer veterans out for medical care. The vets would get better care, it would save the Government money and it would eliminate the bureaucracy that the VA has to maintain to manage the VA. It is literally doing the veterans a disservice. :mad:

Meplat
12-06-2012, 2:46 AM
Despite the fact that Americans are a peaceful people who abhor war. We consistently field the finest fighting men in the world. We don’t like war, but we are damn good at it. And the American soldier has demonstrated over and over again an ability to adapt, improvise, and overcome far beyond any other fighting man in the world.

Consider the Quaker cannon of the American Revolution, or Washington’s surprise attack on Trenton. Think about the roughly one dozen Marines that found a way to take the city of Tripoli and stop the Barbary pirates. Then there is Bastogne where the 101st Airborne was surrounded, badly outnumbered and out gunned, with no hope of resupply. Guadalcanal was like Bastogne with water and palm trees, almost nothing to eat and little to fight with. They prevailed!

Today we have a lot of ge-wizz high-tec weapons, but it is the hart, the creativity, and the adaptability of the American fighting man that sets him apart. The big government statists and the elitists know that. It has also been said that the American fighting man does not fight because he hates what is in front of him; he fights because he loves what is behind him. The elites know this also.

Bottom line? The statist big government elites are scared out of their minds of American veterans. And there are a bunch of us out here! Thanks to all the bull**** little wars they delight in getting us into. It’s not that they don’t care about veterans; they actively fear and hate veterans. They would be delighted if no veteran could ever again get his hands on a gun!

vantec08
12-06-2012, 7:15 AM
Despite the fact that Americans are a peaceful people who abhor war. We consistently field the finest fighting men in the world. We don’t like war, but we are damn good at it. And the American soldier has demonstrated over and over again an ability to adapt, improvise, and overcome far beyond any other fighting man in the world.

Consider the Quaker cannon of the American Revolution, or Washington’s surprise attack on Trenton. Think about the roughly one dozen Marines that found a way to take the city of Tripoli and stop the Barbary pirates. Then there is Bastogne where the 101st Airborne was surrounded, badly outnumbered and out gunned, with no hope of resupply. Guadalcanal was like Bastogne with water and palm trees, almost nothing to eat and little to fight with. They prevailed!

Today we have a lot of ge-wizz high-tec weapons, but it is the hart, the creativity, and the adaptability of the American fighting man that sets him apart. The big government statists and the elitists know that. It has also been said that the American fighting man does not fight because he hates what is in front of him; he fights because he loves what is behind him. The elites know this also.

Bottom line? The statist big government elites are scared out of their minds of American veterans. And there are a bunch of us out here! Thanks to all the bull**** little wars they delight in getting us into. It’s not that they don’t care about veterans; they actively fear and hate veterans. They would be delighted if no veteran could ever again get his hands on a gun!


How true, bottom line. That is why obama has offered to triple military families health care, among other things. I hear liberals say things like "the GI bill and VA should be extended to everyone" without realizing the GI bill and VA are a result of a business deal: you do something for us, we do something for you. You be willing to take a bullet for us for a few years, we will do something for you. That is a straight-up contract. I agree with CED that privatizing the entire system is probably better. At least that way, having choice and competition would hopefully improve things for the vet.