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Maestro Pistolero
12-03-2012, 10:34 AM
The level of vitriol, infighting and unnecessary snark here is at times embarrassing and unbecoming of a community has has taken on such a noble fight with such vigor. I'm not pointing fingers at any one person. I readily admit to being caught up in it a time or two. It seems more and more the rule rather than the exception that discourse descends into low level personal attacks that serve nothing and no-one but the egos of those so engaged.

I wish it could end. But in the end, the management here gets exactly the tone that it demands and no more, be that collegial or sophomoric. I realize that splitting the line between unfettered discourse and chaos can't always be easy. But the same actors seem to denigrate this forum with their ad hominem attacks again and again.

Any prospective 2A supporter looking in on some of the dialog here, perhaps shopping around for a spiritual home could hardly be blamed for moving along as quickly as possible.

mag360
12-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Where would they go? Arfcom? I agree all of us taking a midol and coming down from our soap boxes just a tad would be good. But there is still lots of good that comes from this group. Besides sometimes dummies need to be told they're dummies.

hawk1
12-03-2012, 11:07 AM
I'm not sure what brought you to this, so maybe point out what it was?

I've found the internet is very impersonal and can be interpreted negatively, yet it can just be a civil discussion.

Heck, I've read things one way and others have pointed out (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9841680&postcount=27) that it's not always meant the way it was written.

stix213
12-03-2012, 11:18 AM
Haters gunna hate

I wouldn't lose any sleep over them.

Ossa
12-03-2012, 11:19 AM
Please note that I'm not directing this thread at anybody who uses this forum, and I mean no offense to anyone here. The old saying goes something like this: "Never argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their intellectual level and beat you with experience". Simply put, it's up to us as forum members to keep things civilized, and remember that all members views are to be respected, even if we don't agree with everything they may say. Save the vitriol for the anti-gun legislators!

AyatollahGondola
12-03-2012, 11:26 AM
I think the greater harm is in the heavy hand of censorship. I've seen it happen too. One of the more active associates within our forum (not this one) wrote one time in a thread where this very thing was being discussed, "I wonder what the back story was on the founding fathers as they discussed the king, the revolt, the declaration, and the war." Little of that is in the common man's history books

Maestro Pistolero
12-03-2012, 11:33 AM
I'm not sure what brought you to this, so maybe point out what it was?

If I point out individual posts, then I would be attacking individuals, which is part of the problem which then starts the ego war over again. I am just expressing the opinion that we would be better served, and could better serve our cause if the dialog could be kept to a better minimum level of civility.

A more unified front would better telegraph strength and resolve to our own ranks, and more importantly to our opponents.

There are ample means to communicate personal gripes without putting our skid-marked shorts on the the laundry line for all our neighbors to see: Private messages and email.

hawk1
12-03-2012, 11:40 AM
Then I can only guess it has to do with what's going on in the Richards & Peruta thread.

If so, then I agree, they need to grow up and quit the BS.

It's the exact reason I, and many others, will not donate to them.

my .02 cents worth

Maestro Pistolero
12-03-2012, 11:45 AM
Then I can only guess it has to do with what's going on in the Richards & Peruta thread.

If so, then I agree, they need to grow up and quit the BS.

It's the exact reason I, and many others, will not donate to them.

my .02 cents worth

Pointing out individuals is only helpful when it comes from a moderator with the threat of the ban hammer. Otherwise, is is another urination contest. It is ultimately up to the head janitor. The buck can't stop anywhere else.

Big Ben
12-03-2012, 1:56 PM
The level of vitriol, infighting and unnecessary snark here is at times embarrassing ...

I wish it could end.

Well said. Too much chest thumping, not enough insightful and intelligent discourse. It appears to have gotten worse in the recent past, and makes a useful and informative part of this site less enjoyable, and at time intolerable.

Rather than trading snarky jabs and veiled insults, lets try some civilized discussion of ideas and concepts. Please.

bulgron
12-03-2012, 2:14 PM
Then I can only guess it has to do with what's going on in the Richards & Peruta thread.

If so, then I agree, they need to grow up and quit the BS.

It's the exact reason I, and many others, will not donate to them.

my .02 cents worth

Yeah, there's more than one reason why I stopped writing checks to CalGuns, and this would be one of them.

wildhawker
12-03-2012, 2:16 PM
Those who desire to eat one's cake and have it, too, generally get neither.

-Brandon

Maestro Pistolero
12-03-2012, 2:28 PM
Those who desire to eat one's cake and have it, too, generally get neither.

-Brandon

I'm not sure how that platitude applies to my point, Brandon. Are you suggesting that meaningful dialog necessarily includes ad hominem attacks and must lack civility?

wildhawker
12-03-2012, 3:08 PM
I'm not sure how that platitude applies to my point, Brandon. Are you suggesting that meaningful dialog necessarily includes ad hominem attacks and must lack civility?

It's not a platitude at all.

In any case, a point you seem to have missed is that this is a personal battle for all of us. Expecting it to only be personal in some ways and not others is irrational. If you want milquetoast discussion and milquetoast leadership you'll get milquetoast outcomes.

I'd also argue that you're exaggerating things; some topics and subjects invoke more passion while other invoke very little but in no case does your "must lack civility" apply.

-Brandon

Maestro Pistolero
12-03-2012, 4:17 PM
Thanks for your opinion of whether I understand how personal this battle is. You suggest I wish for milquetoast discussion and leadership. Then you go on to argue that I'm exaggerating. In short, you've taken the subject of this thread and the concern I have raised, and made it personally about me.

While I decline to respond to your 2nd and 3rd ad hominem assertions, let me try and tell you how personal it is for me. My family has been in this country since about 1730, around the time George Washington was born. My direct ancestors fought in the American Revolution and the Continental Army to win the freedom that this organization is attempting to restore.

Now, while my family history doesn't make me one bit more American than last week's immigrant, it has instilled in me a sense of ownership and responsibility for our liberty that makes this battle very personal indeed.

Back to the point: It pains me to see the dialog on this forum cheapened and sullied in the way that I have attempted to describe in this thread. It publicly discredits and undermines the credibility of this organization and this community. It seems I am not alone in my opinion.

Maestro Pistolero
12-03-2012, 4:58 PM
I'm doing my best not to be. Thanks for the call, by the way. Hopefully we can have a longer conversation soon.

eaglemike
12-03-2012, 4:59 PM
Let me offer an analogy.

Let's say someone is very successful at building great cars - but they are perceived as jerks by their customers. This will limit marketability of the product.


Class, restraint, and responsibility are always appreciated by this member.

curtisfong
12-03-2012, 5:50 PM
The snark revolves around one individual in particular, who loves to play passive aggressive games, (lol™, etc.)

Can you blame people if they take his bait?

choprzrul
12-03-2012, 6:34 PM
Meh.

When I feel like being snarky, I just go visit one of my liberal local newspapers' site and engage a bunch on anti-gun, anti civil rights libtards. Great fun.

.

Meplat
12-03-2012, 6:36 PM
It's not a platitude at all.

In any case, a point you seem to have missed is that this is a personal battle for all of us. Expecting it to only be personal in some ways and not others is irrational. If you want milquetoast discussion and milquetoast leadership you'll get milquetoast outcomes.

I'd also argue that you're exaggerating things; some topics and subjects invoke more passion while other invoke very little but in no case does your "must lack civility" apply.

-Brandon

While I too would at times wish for a little less rowdiness, we have to admit that Brandon makes some really good points.

I have also noticed the conspicuous absence of the ban hammer lately, but I thought it was used too much at one time. I think it may have to do with the phenomenally rapid growth of this community! I don't think the mods can keep up. Maybe you should help by reporting posts that are over the top?

Mulay El Raisuli
12-04-2012, 6:35 AM
The snark revolves around one individual in particular, who loves to play passive aggressive games, (lol™, etc.)

Can you blame people if they take his bait?


Yeah. They can just ignore him. ESPECIALLY since the individual you speak of offers very little but passive-agressive gamesplaying.


The Raisuli

wazdat
12-04-2012, 7:45 AM
Yeah. They can just ignore him. ESPECIALLY since the individual you speak of offers very little but passive-agressive gamesplaying.


The Raisuli

That individual's posts have been ignored by me for the last year. Others who just want to goad a fight are headed for the same fate.

I come here for what I hope to be up to date information on my 2A rights and changes in the law(s) that affect them. Not to watch immature kiddies kick sand at one another.

BrokerB
12-04-2012, 7:53 AM
As a somewhat outsider- none of this bothers me at all. I don't like snobby gun owners either, so what. NRA used to never support semi auto shooters..Now they are a black rifle bandwagon. The shooting community is large and wide..lots of different styles good and bad

Crom
12-04-2012, 9:10 AM
I think the OP is correct. It seems to me that there is an attitude of, "You're either with us, or against us." And if any criticism is laid down about the strategy, then that's when the personal attacks seem to fly. The character assassinations are relentless. How dare you criticize, your not one of the "Right People." Also certain people [who's egos are large] it would seem are unable to cope with notion of making a wrong decision or in fact being wrong. And as such the stigmatization in their own mind so great, they regress and descend into to attacking the others character. There is a total lack of humility on their part. Also, what was amusing at first is starting to become a concern, and that is the paranoia about the conspiracy theories. It's becoming extreme.

FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
12-04-2012, 9:15 AM
That individual's posts have been ignored by me for the last year.

That's too bad, you've missed some spot-on predictions in several 2A matters! :laugh:

wildhawker
12-04-2012, 9:27 AM
It's becoming extreme.

If you think what you see on Calguns.net is "extreme", then I might suggest that you don't go turning over rocks at scale.

-Brandon

Wrangler John
12-04-2012, 11:57 AM
This thread amuses me greatly. The conversations here and those in the “Activity in Richards & Peruta” thread represents an unintentional auto-satire, yes? To ask that people refrain from hurling muck-baskets of invective at each other is, in my opinion, the paramount expression of naivete. Aside from the fact that I consider everyone who disagrees with my positions to be moronic self-delusional bed-wetting anemic vegans, I seldom engage in verbal pissing contests with bed-wetters, as that is playing into their strength. I prefer to debase them anonymously behind their backs, where they can only whine about unfair ad hominem attacks, while wetting themselves with copious puddles of denial. This level of discourse is a long tradition in the history of American politics. Here is some actual political verbiage from the 1800 Presidential Election as they would appear today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Drl8fpWTKo&feature=related

The above reference was found here:

http://colonialquills.blogspot.com/2012/10/american-politics-history-of-invective.html

Now go forth and hurl mud. :)

goober
12-04-2012, 12:47 PM
IBTM
(In Before The Move, as this thread is not 2A-related and thus does not belong here.)
"Librarian, clean up on aisle 2A!!!"

donny douchebag
12-04-2012, 12:53 PM
It appears many here need to turn off their computers and go outside. This is nothing more than the GD internet. It's meaningless.

IVC
12-04-2012, 1:17 PM
That's too bad, you've missed some spot-on predictions in several 2A matters! :laugh:

Lupus in fabula...

Maestro Pistolero
12-04-2012, 1:44 PM
IBTM
(In Before The Move, as this thread is not 2A-related and thus does not belong here.)
"Librarian, clean up on aisle 2A!!!"

You are technically correct. This thread is about behavior in, and character of this particular subforum. I suspect that's why it has been allowed to remain here. There is simply no better place for it to have the visibility of those whom it primarily concerns.

CEDaytonaRydr
12-04-2012, 2:59 PM
+1

It's annoying.

Too many "know it alls". :rolleyes:

Meplat
12-04-2012, 3:56 PM
That's too bad, you've missed some spot-on predictions in several 2A matters! :laugh:


You know what they say about blind squirrels. :D

Meplat
12-04-2012, 3:58 PM
If you think what you see on Calguns.net is "extreme", then I might suggest that you don't go turning over rocks at scale.

-Brandon

:confused:Scale??

OlderThanDirt
12-04-2012, 5:47 PM
My brother-in-law used to get all worked up when he posted here and on a few other forums. He ended up blowing out his aorta and bled out in about 10 minutes. I just ignore the noise from the blowhards and pick out the information that I find useful. In the end, opinions are like azzholes; everybody has one and some people are one. If we just ignore the main offenders, their conversation will end. While tempted to rebut some lame comments, I just move on and spare myself the aggravation. Eventually some of these people will get tired of talking to themselves since they won't get the desired reaction.

Simply115
12-04-2012, 7:52 PM
At least it's not Arfcom, which is ten times as worse. But you have a point. It's something we can turn down.


Sent from the Realms Of The Haunting :73:

bubbapug1
12-04-2012, 8:10 PM
Thanks for your opinion of whether I understand how personal this battle is. You suggest I wish for milquetoast discussion and leadership. Then you go on to argue that I'm exaggerating. In short, you've taken the subject of this thread and the concern I have raised, and made it personally about me.

While I decline to respond to your 2nd and 3rd ad hominem assertions, let me try and tell you how personal it is for me. My family has been in this country since about 1730, around the time George Washington was born. My direct ancestors fought in the American Revolution and the Continental Army to win the freedom that this organization is attempting to restore.

Now, while my family history doesn't make me one bit more American than last week's immigrant, it has instilled in me a sense of ownership and responsibility for our liberty that makes this battle very personal indeed.

Back to the point: It pains me to see the dialog on this forum cheapened and sullied in the way that I have attempted to describe in this thread. It publicly discredits and undermines the credibility of this organization and this community. It seems I am not alone in my opinion.

Finally someone who is willing to stand up to the bullies on the board who disgrace the 2A campaign with their lack of maturity...and instead call it passion.

And now for further attacks....

tcrpe
12-04-2012, 10:09 PM
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc23/tcrpe/5A2E9157-13FD-4425-87FC-D26E39351C97-303-000000616369B075.jpg

SNARK. -- REAL FIREPOWER

taperxz
12-05-2012, 4:57 AM
I guess my opinion on "snark" being funny on this site is not relevant to leave here?

Is the site not here for enjoyment? Do you really think its NOT funny to see two people argue to the death on an internet web site? TO ME its fricken funny!!

What gets me is that (sometimes me included) people get so worked up about this stuff, its like getting caught up in "Alice in Wonderland". How does one actually get bothered by what others write when most have know idea who you are or you them?

Are we really letting someones text in regards to our text bother us so much that you actually get hurt feelings???? REALLY? Anyway, just my honest opinion and take on things.

Glock22Fan
12-05-2012, 10:21 AM
Meh.

When I feel like being snarky, I just go visit one of my liberal local newspapers' site and engage a bunch on anti-gun, anti civil rights libtards. Great fun.



Yes, they usually let you get far more personal than (fortunately) our moderators do here.

I take great delight there sometimes being outrageously provocative; believe it or not I never go that far here.

kcbrown
12-05-2012, 11:04 AM
+1

It's annoying.

Too many "know it alls". :rolleyes:

I hope against all hope that I'm very, very wrong...

wildhawker
12-05-2012, 12:38 PM
+1

It's annoying.

Too many "know it alls". :rolleyes:

Or, perhaps, too few.

-Brandon

taperxz
12-05-2012, 4:25 PM
Or, perhaps, too few.

-Brandon

I certainly agree that good information from many here is in fact very wrong. Then when someone like yourself, Bill or Gene set the record straight many that gave out wrong intel feel a little butt hurt that they were corrected.

Its certainly not you fault for the correction, its in fact what needs to be said. Unfortunately many in this day and age have a problem with being corrected. Its just no longer politically correct in the eyes of some to be told flat out that they are wrong and should refrain from giving out poor intel in a serious legal subject.

FWIW almost never listen to me!:D Unless you want to kill game that is.

phrogg111
12-05-2012, 4:51 PM
I don't like everyone's attitude or how they talk to people. I am clearly better than them, and as I'm also clearly smarter than them, I'm going to use as many big words as I can.

Seriously - if everyone else's opinions matter so much to you, then you're doing it wrong.

My opinion of me matters, and that's it.

If everyone around you is spouting uneducated BS about something you feel strongly about, then educate people. Don't talk down to them.

There's a bigger picture here than your opinion.

moleculo
12-05-2012, 9:20 PM
I certainly agree that good information from many here is in fact very wrong. Then when someone like yourself, Bill or Gene set the record straight many that gave out wrong intel feel a little butt hurt that they were corrected.

Its certainly not you fault for the correction, its in fact what needs to be said. Unfortunately many in this day and age have a problem with being corrected. Its just no longer politically correct in the eyes of some to be told flat out that they are wrong and should refrain from giving out poor intel in a serious legal subject.

FWIW almost never listen to me!:D Unless you want to kill game that is.

Be careful about a double standard. FGG has a pretty damn good record telling some of those same people you just named precisely how their litigation is going to unfold. So when he ends up being right, do you feel that he said, "what needed to be said", and was justified telling us that they were, "wrong and should refrain from giving out poor intel in a serious legal subject."?

Obviously I'm purposely being a bit provocative, but you can't have it both ways. If you like Gene, Brandon, etc., "telling us how it is", then you have to also accept the truth from those who tell us how it "really is" and tend to be right more often than they are wrong....even if you don't like the message.

moleculo
12-05-2012, 9:24 PM
+1

Too many "know it alls". :rolleyes:

Or, perhaps, too few.

-Brandon


And probably too many who don't know how to tell the difference.

wildhawker
12-05-2012, 10:14 PM
And probably too many who don't know how to tell the difference.

Good thing we're the one's who are 2-0 at SCOTUS, then, isn't it.

-Brandon

moleculo
12-05-2012, 10:32 PM
Good thing we're the one's who are 2-0 at SCOTUS, then, isn't it.

-Brandon

So you NOW you want to develop a CGF balanced scorecard as I've advocated? You do realize that if we're keeping score, it includes more than just SCOTUS cases, right? Honestly, if such a scorecard were to be created, I don't know how it would be graded out at this moment in time, but I do know that CGF wouldn't be able to pick and choose the two cases (that didn't originate from CA, btw) that made it to SCOTUS as the only grading criteria.

Brandon as a side note, do you REALLY want to keep digging yourself into the foxhole that you're creating by continuing to respond to this thread in the manner that you are? I swear, sometimes it appears that you feel so completely justified in defending everything said about or by CGF that you can't restrain yourself from commenting for the benefit of good public relations with your constituents.

Meplat
12-06-2012, 12:16 AM
So you NOW you want to develop a CGF balanced scorecard as I've advocated? You do realize that if we're keeping score, it includes more than just SCOTUS cases, right? Honestly, if such a scorecard were to be created, I don't know how it would be graded out at this moment in time, but I do know that CGF wouldn't be able to pick and choose the two cases (that didn't originate from CA, btw) that made it to SCOTUS as the only grading criteria.



But sometimes a loss is a win and sometimes a win is a loss. Ain’ all at cut-n-dried.

ElDub1950
12-06-2012, 12:28 AM
May not be reasonable to expect that having a single common interest in firearms make everyone a sensible person.

We seem to have an equal percentage of blowhards, buffoons, bullies, jerks and douchbags as the general population.

We may even have a higher percentage of people desperately searching out things about which they can be offended and start an argument.

Basically it just comes with the territory in any public forum on any topic.

wildhawker
12-06-2012, 12:36 AM
But sometimes a loss is a win and sometimes a win is a loss. Ain’ all at cut-n-dried.

Thank you for acknowledging what some others seem to be overlooking.

-Brandon

nicki
12-06-2012, 1:49 AM
Something I'd like everyone to consider.

Calguns has more than doubled in size in the last few years, we are getting many new faces here, if we come off badly, we lose them.

The battle for gun rights is being waged in California, that is why we are getting a growth of new members from other parts of the country.

There is the NRA model for gun rights which has been primarily defense at the legislative level.

Calguns is focusing in court, so we are offense and because of the second amendment foundation, what we are doing here in California will spread across the country.

The NRA is somewhat predictable, we're not and that scares the crap out of our opponents.

Because of opponents are afraid of us, they bog down their own events to try to keep us out. In the process they cut down the number of their own supporters.

The Suprme court will rule on carry cases and so called AW bans probably within the next 3 to 5 years and some of those cases may come from here.

Members from this board have already stopped local gun ordinances from being passed, ordinances that in the past would have been rubber stamped.

The push for new gun laws often starts with trial balloons in regional areas and we shut down SB249. Sen Yee made us stronger, his actions and the free publicity our local news channel provided probably increased gun sales and put us in the public eye.

We don't fit the typical gun owner profile, as such, we will be able to reach many people that the NRA hasn't been able to do.

We have a lot of great potential, but in order to achieve that potential we have to grow.

We will not grow if people reading our forums seeing people making personal attacks.

Stirring the pot is a good thing, good spirited debate and arguing is necessary to foster creative thought and action.

I have found this forum both educational and entertaining. For those of you who get a chance, you should really meet with people off the net, definitely worth it.

Nicki

hornswaggled
12-06-2012, 4:30 AM
Just win, baby.

taperxz
12-06-2012, 5:08 AM
Be careful about a double standard. FGG has a pretty damn good record telling some of those same people you just named precisely how their litigation is going to unfold. So when he ends up being right, do you feel that he said, "what needed to be said", and was justified telling us that they were, "wrong and should refrain from giving out poor intel in a serious legal subject."?

Obviously I'm purposely being a bit provocative, but you can't have it both ways. If you like Gene, Brandon, etc., "telling us how it is", then you have to also accept the truth from those who tell us how it "really is" and tend to be right more often than they are wrong....even if you don't like the message.

Once again you are true to form moleculo. Its almost like every street on earth is a one way street in your mind.

My comments above has absolutely NOTHING to do with court cases or FGG! It has everything to do with all the advice CGF gives on current legal issues in this state. Everyday firearm stuff.

You seem to troll certain threads that may include some kind of court ordeal but i never see you helping out others here with every day questions that will let them enjoy gun ownership, hunting, shooting ect. and stay out of jail.

There really is more to this site than your cherry picked threads and cheer leading for a CGF collapse. YES FGG has predicted some out comes but FGG has also admitted to being wrong in issues too. These are all just battles regardless of what happens. The strategy is to win the war.

Maestro Pistolero
12-06-2012, 5:17 AM
A little introspection and self-policing can go a long way. And it's so much more dignified than inspiring the use of some ban hammer. If we just ask ourselves, before we post that expertly crafted, sharp-witted, cutting retort, if there is maybe a way to say this that is coming less from our own ego and more from our deeper, better intentions.

Decimating those with whom we mostly agree but sharply disagree on smaller details is almost never the wisest course. But many of us proceed in exactly that manner. When debating something about which we are all passionate, it is no badge of honor to humiliate our colleagues. It takes far more skill, intelligence, maturity, and wisdom to make one's point just as forcefully, but with kindness and respect.

Mulay El Raisuli
12-06-2012, 8:35 AM
You are technically correct. This thread is about behavior in, and character of this particular subforum. I suspect that's why it has been allowed to remain here. There is simply no better place for it to have the visibility of those whom it primarily concerns.


"Sticky" time, then?


The Raisuli