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Timberland
08-02-2007, 10:29 PM
Hi all, I know its not gun related but hope somone might know. Here goes:

-If an employer requires you to whear a uniform, but does not allow you to take it home, but require you to leave it on the jobsite, are they or are they not required by law to pay you to change into uniform?

Does anyone know the of any laws regarding this, or how I could find out?
Any help is greatly welcomed.

LECTRIKHED
08-02-2007, 11:04 PM
I'm not an attorney, but here is my evaluation. Take it for what its worth. I actually do a lot of research on the labor code at my job, so I am familiar with it.

If you are at work, performing job duties, you should be paid. I assume that you are saying that you are required to dress up and then punch in. Your employer is wrong. For example, if you were at a construction site and had to change into a protective chemical suit to remove asbestos, they would have to pay you for the time to change in and out of the protective suit. When you are at work, performing job duties, you are working.

My advice is to look for a new job. They're not going to stop being *******s.

Timberland
08-02-2007, 11:18 PM
When you are at work, performing job duties, you are working.

My advice is to look for a new job. They're not going to stop being *******s.

Thats my take, and ive had other jobs pay to change. But I need a legal code to be shure. O and im on the new job part, but they dont pay as well.

Zhukov
08-02-2007, 11:53 PM
Honestly, call the Labor Department. The people on the phone do know their stuff, at least in the cases when I called to inquire. If your employer is being a dick, file an anonymous complaint with them. They are one of the few agencies around here who actually do their jobs.

jmlivingston
08-03-2007, 6:12 AM
Do a web search of these items:


Fair Labor Standards Act
Portal-to-Portal Act of 1947
SCOTUS ruling in IBP, Inc. vs Alvarez.


John

E Pluribus Unum
08-03-2007, 10:30 AM
Hi all, I know its not gun related but hope somone might know. Here goes:

-If an employer requires you to whear a uniform, but does not allow you to take it home, but require you to leave it on the jobsite, are they or are they not required by law to pay you to change into uniform?

Does anyone know the of any laws regarding this, or how I could find out?
Any help is greatly welcomed.

If you keep a detail diary of everything they do.... this..... no breaks or not long enough et cetera... after you quit or get fired the labor board will assign penalties retroactively.

I once saw a guy get 30 minutes pay times every work day for 3 years because the employer said "No breaks".

wayoutwest
08-03-2007, 8:50 PM
On the flip side

You are scheduled for a 8 hour shift, 9-5:30 (1/2 unpaid lunch, 2x 10 min breaks), if you dress on the clock you are taking an extra 5-10 minutes to get ready to work (dress, ****, hair etc.) when you should be ready at 9. Eats into my profitability cause you are not working at your scheduled time. Same for getting undressed.

If you bring the uniform home you are still getting dressed for work on your time.


IMO you should be paid for it

I am expected to be to work on time, ready to work at my scheduled shift, personal belonging put away, dressed and ready to go


are they supplying you with mulitply uniforms, are they cleaning them regularly?

E Pluribus Unum
08-03-2007, 10:09 PM
On the flip side

You are scheduled for a 8 hour shift, 9-5:30 (1/2 unpaid lunch, 2x 10 min breaks), if you dress on the clock you are taking an extra 5-10 minutes to get ready to work (dress, ****, hair etc.) when you should be ready at 9. Eats into my profitability cause you are not working at your scheduled time. Same for getting undressed.

If you bring the uniform home you are still getting dressed for work on your time.


IMO you should be paid for it

I am expected to be to work on time, ready to work at my scheduled shift, personal belonging put away, dressed and ready to go


are they supplying you with mulitply uniforms, are they cleaning them regularly?

Problem with that theory is if they were allowed to bring the uniforms home, he could put the uniform on AT home. Because they are not allowed to they must get dressed for work twice.... once at home... and once at work.

50ae
08-04-2007, 6:54 AM
This might help you some

http://www.rlwlaw.com/pdfs/News_Bulletin_8-01-06.pdf

Gmountain
08-04-2007, 7:18 AM
Hi all, I know its not gun related but hope somone might know. Here goes:

-If an employer requires you to whear a uniform, but does not allow you to take it home, but require you to leave it on the jobsite, are they or are they not required by law to pay you to change into uniform?

Does anyone know the of any laws regarding this, or how I could find out?
Any help is greatly welcomed.

Really, how long does it take you to get dressed? A couple of minutes. You say it's your time, but do you ever spend a couple of minutes on personal business while on the employers time? Or just talking to coworkers without working? Sometimes you can take this liberal crap a little too far, imo.

dfletcher
08-04-2007, 9:43 AM
I presume you are not covered by a CBA - but if you are, that would be your first recourse. The CBA should address this specifically and if it does not the union and company will have to first attempt to resolve the matter. If you are not in a union & covered by a CBA, then you would contact the NLRB.

I work directly for a company owner in an industry where uniforms are used. I can't answer your "should I be paid for my time" question but I'd like to point out a few practical issues.

I presume your employer maintains uniforms on site rather than allowing employees to take them home because it saves money & ensures they will be properly uniformed. Consider what happens when employees take their uniforms home. They lose them, they mow the lawn in them, they get food or oil stains on them, the kids get ahold of them. If employees become responsible for care & cleaning - well let's say I've seen some disgusting shirts & pants turned in by employees.

I would not make a presumption that if you prevail, and the employer is required to pay, that the way the employer will solve the problem is simply by paying employees an extra 15 minutes or so. The employer may decide the alternative to employees changing at work is issuing you & your co-workers uniforms, whereby you can change at home on your own time and, in part or in whole, be made responsible for uniform care & cleaning.

You will be charged - usually $100.00 to $150.00 - for an initial issue of those uniforms. If the company does the cleaning, you'll be required to drop off & pick up your uniforms at specified times & locations. If you do the cleaning, you'll be paid a stipend - I'd guess about $5.00 per week - for maintaining them. This stipend is not taxable income.

Whether maintained by the company or employee, if you lose or damage a shirt or pants you'll be charged. If you leave the company there will most likely be a cleaning charge.

Since you'll have a hand in maintainence, you'll be subject to disciplinary action for appearance - show up in other than a complete and serviceable uniform and you would be subject to disciplinary action. Do it often enough & I presume you'd be subject to termination.

You may want to consider how your co - workers will take this also. Are they going to thank you for "costing" them a $100.00 uniform issue fee? For making them clean their own uniforms? For being fired because they don't meet company uniform maintainence standards?

This is the part where I'd say that if you succeed you could be fired. Unfair but I suspect probable. Unless your co - workers handle matters on their own - don't take them up on any offers to go shooting in the desert. :eek:

Not saying I agree with the consequences, just some observations on how things can work out.

CA_Libertarian
08-04-2007, 11:17 AM
Honestly, call the Labor Department... They are one of the few agencies around here who actually do their jobs.

Some of them. I've had to file complaints against three employers. The first time they upheld the letter of the law; the last time they made us compromise on our demands (meaning I got half of what I was legally entitled to).

The second time the deputy judge dismissed my case, despite having a letter written and signed by the company owner detailing his plan to fire me if I filed a wage claim. The deputy judge and the company owner hang out once a month at the Portuguese hall; my appeal to the director went unanswered.

So, I would say overall they do about a 50% job (which is pretty good for a CA bureaucracy).

If you're really determined, you can sue the DSLE (Div. of Labor Standards Enforcement) if they don't uphold the law 100%. However, I'm not sure how effective that would be...

cpsca
08-04-2007, 11:31 AM
As with many labor law situations in California, the answer to your question is not simple.

Section 46.6.4 of the DLSE's 2002 update of the Enforcement Manual states:

"Changing Uniforms or Washing Up at Work. Time spent changing clothes or washing up on the employer’s premises is compensable if it is compelled by the necessities of the employer’s business. (O .L. 1994.02.03-3; 1998.12.23) It should be noted, however, that for enforcement purposes, the Division utilizes a de minimis test concerning certain activities of employees (See Lindow v. United S tates 738 F .2d 1057 (9th Cir.1984)) Under this test the Division will consider (1) the practical administrative difficulty of recording the additional tim e; (2) the aggregate am ount of com pensable time, and (3) the regularity of the ad ditional activity. (O.L . 1988.05.16)"

What does this mean for practical purposes? According to the letter of the law (enforcement of it at least), you probably should be paid for the time spent changing into a uniform. But if the uniform just consists of a shirt, pants and shoes (meaning it really wouldn't take you that long to change into), then maybe not. How complex is the uniform? Do you have to put stuff on your belt? Any special safety equipment you have to wear?

All those questions would help determine if the employer really would have to pay you for the time spent changing into a uniform. There is case law to support both sides here.

E Pluribus Unum
08-04-2007, 2:30 PM
But if the uniform just consists of a shirt, pants and shoes (meaning it really wouldn't take you that long to change into), then maybe not. How complex is the uniform? Do you have to put stuff on your belt? Any special safety equipment you have to wear?

All those questions would help determine if the employer really would have to pay you for the time spent changing into a uniform. There is case law to support both sides here.

I think of it being moot anyway.... time is usually calculated in 15 minute intervals and any amount of time half that would be insignificant.

For example.

If one clocks in at 8:00 he gets paid the same as the man who is late and clocks in at 8:06. The only time I would think this would become a valid concern is if it takes more than 6 minutes to get dressed.

cpsca
08-04-2007, 7:01 PM
EPU just hit the nail on the head in regard to the time being significant or not.

The only point of contention is that most commercially available ETRS (employee time recording systems) calculate on 1/10's of a minute. These are most commonly used with hourly employees for clocking in and out. Which means anything more than 6 minutes could be significant.

E Pluribus Unum
08-04-2007, 7:54 PM
I think the issue would be if the employer told the employees that it is a requirement to get to work early enough that they be dressed and ready by 8:00am. Again my statement applies; if it takes less than 6 minutes to put the uniform on, then even if you were allowed to clock in at 7:55 one would still get the same amount of pay as someone who clocked in at 8:00. In order to get an extra 15-30 minutes of pay one would have to clock in before 7:54. 6 minutes is plenty of time to get ready... even the complex chemical suits don't take 6 minutes to put on. If it takes 10+ minutes to suit up then raise a stink about it. If its less then this than move on and forget about it.

rhunter
08-04-2007, 9:15 PM
Look up the "Law of Donning and Doffing" In some cases, if you are working with Haz Mat you are covered. In others, you are not; Call a Liar.

Roger

Zhukov
08-05-2007, 11:24 AM
Some of them. I've had to file complaints against three employers. The first time they upheld the letter of the law; the last time they made us compromise on our demands (meaning I got half of what I was legally entitled to).

The second time the deputy judge dismissed my case, despite having a letter written and signed by the company owner detailing his plan to fire me if I filed a wage claim. The deputy judge and the company owner hang out once a month at the Portuguese hall; my appeal to the director went unanswered.

So, I would say overall they do about a 50% job (which is pretty good for a CA bureaucracy).

If you're really determined, you can sue the DSLE (Div. of Labor Standards Enforcement) if they don't uphold the law 100%. However, I'm not sure how effective that would be...

Yes, but a deputy judge isn't part of the Division of Labor Standards Enforcement. I'm referring to the people I called on the phone in the Oakland office. The lady I spoke to answered all of my questions right away and even offered to send me an anonymous complaint form so my name wouldn't get mentioned.

Timberland
08-05-2007, 1:22 PM
Ok more details, an employee is expected to walk 1/4 mile to the back of store, get uniform, return to front, punch in, takes 5-6 minutes. Also employee cant leave store with uniform, thus 30 minute break if you want to leave means 5 min before exit then another 5 to get back. ive read that apon cloking out an employee must be then free to leave, thus ur not on lunch, or final punch outs.
Dawning and duffing fits, but its not a hazmat type uniform.
What are my best choices, lawyer, fial a complaint?

E Pluribus Unum
08-05-2007, 3:43 PM
Dawning and duffing fits, but its not a hazmat type uniform. What are my best choices, lawyer, fial a complaint?

You forgot the final option..... man up and deal with it happy that you have a good job. At the very most you are complaining about 30 minutes of pay. In then end after taxes, thats about $5 a day. There are many people willing to give that up to have a good job.

Fjold
08-05-2007, 5:53 PM
Ok more details, an employee is expected to walk 1/4 mile to the back of store, get uniform, return to front, punch in, takes 5-6 minutes. Also employee cant leave store with uniform, thus 30 minute break if you want to leave means 5 min before exit then another 5 to get back. ive read that apon cloking out an employee must be then free to leave, thus ur not on lunch, or final punch outs.
Dawning and duffing fits, but its not a hazmat type uniform.
What are my best choices, lawyer, fial a complaint?

You're store is 1/4 mile (440 yards) front to back?

wayoutwest
08-05-2007, 7:25 PM
Yeah 1/4 mile is a long ways, from the front of Walmart to the back of the stockroom where lockers would be might be that far, maybe. But generally the timeclock is also located there, or the breakroom/office .

I also think you can be required to stay on property but you have to be released of all duties, say you only have 2 part coverage. If you are not released of duties then they have to pay you for the time as you would be required to work.

cpsca
08-05-2007, 8:49 PM
Timberland,

Based on this additional information, you may have a claim for past wages.

Do you get any "walking" or "changing" time at the end of your shift? Is there a practice (doesn't have to be a firm policy) of leaving your work area a little early to get to the locker room and change out of your uniform? Lot more questions must be asked.

Contact the DLSE to get the ball rolling IF you really want to begin this process. Remember, it won't be easy, you may be discriminated against and you may find that the fight is far worse than the reward ever could be.

The good news is, there is plenty of case law covering this area of employment law.

E Pluribus Unum
08-06-2007, 3:31 AM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA



Employees like this need a union to secure thier jobs.... wining and complaining about 10 minutes of dress time.... employees that are like this are usually worthless and lazy anyway.

whatever.....

Paratus et Vigilans
08-06-2007, 7:32 AM
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA



Employees like this need a union to secure thier jobs.... wining and complaining about 10 minutes of dress time.... employees that are like this are usually worthless and lazy anyway.

whatever.....

Not to dogpile on you, Timberland, but I'm with EPU on this one. I'm a sole proprietor and have no employees, but back when I worked with and for others, I did have a semi-management kind of function, and the LAST thing I wanted working with or for me was a clock-watcher. You want to move up in the world? Think like a boss, not like a worker. Come a little early, be ready to work on time. Stay a little late, don't dash for the door when your shift is up. Be committed to doing a good job, and giving value to the employer for the dollar your employer pays you. Do that, and you will move up in the world, and one day, if you want, you will be the boss. Think like an employee, and that's what you'll be for the rest of your life. What you do and how you act will get noticed. My old college football coach, may he rest in peace, had a name for the guys who were the last ones dragging their butts out to the practice field before we got started and were the first ones sprinting off the field and into the showers when the last whistle blew. He called them "quick change artists." Want to guess how many of them were starters, or ever became starters? Believe me, it ALL gets noticed. The question for you is, how do you want to be seen? Employee for life, or candidate for promotion? The choice is yours. And if this job is not one you want to keep and is not a place where you can or want to be promoted, then move on, the sooner the better. Remember, the bosses generally can afford more guns and more ammo and more range time than the workers. :D There - - I made it about guns, too!

Timberland
08-08-2007, 4:39 PM
Dont bash me, the job sucks and im looking to move on, but I just cant shake the idea of how this job screws everyone who works there. I just want this (evil corperation) to follow the law.

dfletcher
08-08-2007, 6:30 PM
Dont bash me, the job sucks and im looking to move on, but I just cant shake the idea of how this job screws everyone who works there. I just want this (evil corperation) to follow the law.

Timber

I have to tell you - the best thing you can do is print the previous post and read it every day. That was top notch advice worth a big "Thank You". You could buy a bunch of "How to Succeed in Business" books and not get better info.

E Pluribus Unum
08-08-2007, 7:26 PM
I just want this (evil corperation) to follow the law.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA A


Good luck with unemployment.

eta34
08-08-2007, 8:31 PM
I don't know what type of work you do, but you may want to read your MOU and see what it says. Ours specifically says that we do not get paid for changing clothes. Either way, do you really think that it is reasonable to have to pay you for the 10 minutes you take to change?

E Pluribus Unum
08-09-2007, 12:47 AM
Either way, do you really think that it is reasonable to have to pay you for the 10 minutes you take to change?

There is no work ethics any more. Today people do not EARN their checks.... they are DESERVED....

In the old days, good hard-working employees were exploited and abused by money-hungry employers... the unions came along and fixed all that....

....but now its gone the other way... now employees have lost the mentality of earning an honest day's wage. Its all about what is "OWED"; what are their "rights"; what can they GET from the company.

I take pride in EARNING my money by working hard and doing my job day in and day out. If something is happening I do not like then I find another job.

colossians323
08-09-2007, 5:20 AM
There is no work ethics any more. Today people do not EARN their checks.... they are DESERVED....

In the old days, good hard-working employees were exploited and abused by money-hungry employers... the unions came along and fixed all that....

....but now its gone the other way... now employees have lost the mentality of earning an honest day's wage. Its all about what is "OWED"; what are their "rights"; what can they GET from the company.

I take pride in EARNING my money by working hard and doing my job day in and day out. If something is happening I do not like then I find another job.

You must own your own business, or are in management, what about the little guy.
It seems like "the man" is always trying to bring him down.;)

Fjold
08-09-2007, 8:00 AM
We provide uniforms to all employees and we don't want then to take them home because we pay the laundry service to clean them and we don't want the employees to take them home and get oil and stuff in their home washing machines.

All my guys know when we start work and are ready to go everyday, neither they nor I sweat a minute or two either way. Of course I personally interview every prospective employee and I look for people who are eager to work and have pride in what they do. Hiring those types of people means that I don't have problems with people watching the clock or sweating the small stuff.

E Pluribus Unum
08-09-2007, 11:02 AM
You must own your own business, or are in management, what about the little guy.
It seems like "the man" is always trying to bring him down.;)

I am self-employed but I am also employed... I work hard.