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taiwon
12-01-2012, 1:31 AM
my father was a felon over 30 years ago (according to him, but lets just say he is) but basically back in his very early 20's he was a stupid young kid; multiple DUI's, resisting arrest, i think assaulting a police officer (from resisting arrest). im 19 almost 20 and since i turned 18 my dad started feeling obligated to fill me in on all the stupid mistakes that he's made in his past. i guess he feels obligated to do this because im nearing the age when he started doing stupid stuff and he doesn't want me to ever stray away from the straight and narrow life ive been leading. since he met my mother in his mid to late 20's, he completely changed. he's in his mid 50's now and owns a successful restaurant with my mother and we couldnt be a happier family. sorry for all the weird mushy background stuff but here's my actual questions, please answer them as fully as possible:
1) since my dad is a felon on record (to my understanding), he probably can't legally purchase firearms (at least from what he's told me, i actually dont know for sure). since he probably cant legally purchase firearms, is he still allowed to defend himself with one of mine if the situation ever occurred? for instance, im a pretty serious firearm connoisseur (obviously, im a member on calguns) and all the guns that are in my family belong to me. in our restaurant we have a stockless mossberg 500 with a sick-looking heatguard and sidesaddle. if my father were ever forced to defend his life in his restaurant and he ended up killing the crooks in a justified manner with my shotgun, will he get in trouble simply because he lost his gun rights over 30 years ago?

2) is there any way he can overturn his felony that is over 30 years old? is there any stature of limitations?

thanks

OniKoroshi
12-01-2012, 1:59 AM
I believe I read or heard in the news (sactown) sometime this year a felon got into trouble defending himself from a bad guy who broke into his place. I believe felon was protecting his drug stash. Sad isn't it??

Get a lawyer and see what they can do. someone will chime in with the resident CG lawyers.

roushstage2
12-01-2012, 2:06 AM
A lawyer is the person who can best answer that question (based on what your father was actually charged with and if his rights can be restored). Generally speaking, a felon cannot buy, own or possess a firearm. Technically, if he isn't supposed to possess a firearm and your "sick" Mossberg 500 (and ammunition; that counts too) is accessible to him, he could be charged with possession if someone wanted to be a **** and you'd get in trouble too I believe for providing a felon with a firearm. He cannot have access to, or possession of, any of your firearms and ammunition.

OniKoroshi
12-01-2012, 2:10 AM
Here's a good read.

http://michellawyers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Restoration-of-Gun-Rights-Linked-Doc.pdf

As stated above I believe a prohibited person can't have access to a firearm.

roushstage2
12-01-2012, 2:17 AM
Justifiable Possession of a Firearm by Certain Prohibited Classes
Any person found to have committed an offense enumerated in Penal Code section 12021, subdivisions (a) through (e), is prohibited from owning, possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any firearm. A violation of subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is justifiable where all of the following conditions are met:
• The person found the firearm or took the firearm from the person who was committing the crime against him or her.
• The person possessed the firearm no longer than was necessary to deliver or transport the firearm to a law enforcement agency for that agency’s disposition according to law.
• If the firearm was transported to a law enforcement agency, it was transported in accordance with paragraph (18) of subdivision (a) of section 12026.2.
• If the firearm is being transported to a law enforcement agency, the person transporting the firearm has given prior notice to the law enforcement agency that he or she is transporting the firearm to the law enforcement agency for disposition according to law.

Upon the trial for violating subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e), the trier of fact shall determine whether the defendant was acting within the provisions of the exemption created by this subdivision. The defendant has the burden of proving by a preponderance of the evidence that he or she comes within the provisions of the exemption created by this subdivision. (Penal Code § 12021(h).)

Penal Code 12021 (http://theacademy.ca.gov/docs/CA%20Penal%20Code%2012021.pdf)

Librarian
12-01-2012, 11:38 AM
Penal Code 12021 (http://theacademy.ca.gov/docs/CA%20Penal%20Code%2012021.pdf)

12021(h) ... which is new

Librarian
12-01-2012, 11:39 AM
Penal Code 12021 (http://theacademy.ca.gov/docs/CA%20Penal%20Code%2012021.pdf)

12021(h) ... which is new 29850 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/29850.html)

IVC
12-01-2012, 12:12 PM
You should consider talking to attorney regardless of the possible self defense situation. Just the fact that your father can gain access to your firearm by himself could be problematic. Even if it's in the safe, but he knows the combination, it's hard to argue that you didn't know or reasonably couldn't have known that he could reach it.

Knowing how to stay on the right side of the law in a non-trivial situation should be very important.

Kukuforguns
12-01-2012, 12:14 PM
You do not want your father to have access to the shotgun in the restaurant, for his sake and yours. See this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=636365)

Oceanbob
12-01-2012, 12:26 PM
You do not want your father to have access to the shotgun in the restaurant, for his sake and yours. See this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=636365)

This^^^^

We wouldn't want your dad to go to prison; I may be wrong but I think a violation is a mandatory sentence that even a Judge has no discretion to reduce.. Remove that weapon from his work.

JMO

Also, don't ask law enforcement or anyone else, Just quietly remove the weapon and STFU.

Shasta Frog
12-01-2012, 12:37 PM
Wouldnt the defense of "Duress" apply here? This a California law that states you may not be held criminally liable for breaking a law in order to defend your life or the life of another.

Oceanbob
12-01-2012, 12:44 PM
Wouldnt the defense of "Duress" apply here? This a California law that states you may not be held criminally liable for breaking a law in order to defend your life or the life of another.

Post the PC .

I would say in this situation....NO.....

Grizzled Bastard
12-01-2012, 12:52 PM
I can't think of the word right now but under certain circumstances, a felon can petition to have that title rescinded restoring his lost rights. Again, there's a term for it that escapes me but it can be done and from what you say of his situation, being a straight up citizen for all these years, it would seem he would be a good candidate.

DSB
12-01-2012, 12:58 PM
Wouldnt the defense of "Duress" apply here? This a California law that states you may not be held criminally liable for breaking a law in order to defend your life or the life of another.

If you don't know the definition of a legal term, it is not a good idea to act like you do. You have incorrectly defined duress, and duress has nothing to do with the situation described by the OP.

IVC
12-01-2012, 1:31 PM
Wouldnt the defense of "Duress" apply here? This a California law that states you may not be held criminally liable for breaking a law in order to defend your life or the life of another.

The problem is that there is conscious and deliberate access to the firearm where it shouldn't be, well before any harm or self defense situation. Even in the self defense situation, the sticky question is how did the father have access to *his* firearm (his son's) in the first place.

If he wrestles it out of attacker's hands, or the son gives him access to the safe in real time, there is a PC posted above by Librarian that provides exemption.

roushstage2
12-01-2012, 1:34 PM
12021(h) ... which is new [/URL]

12021(h) ... which is new [URL="http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/29850.html"]29850 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/29850.html)

Thanks for the updates. I got the PC from the 2006 CA Firearms Laws PDF on the OAG/DOJ website. BTW, is there a newer one than that?

taiwon
12-01-2012, 3:36 PM
wow thanks guys this is really surprising and helpful. i just talked to my mother, she said that my father never went to prison before, just county jail for a couple months and it wasn't for a violent crime just DUI stuff. she told me that he actually still has the right to vote and to even purchase firearms but that he doesn't choose to because he would feel embarrassed to put on a firearm form that he's had a felony before or something like that (my dad is a pretty big introvert). as for him having access to my mossberg 500, i was asking this question assuming if he was a felon- it was a big hypothetical. he most likely isnt a felon but im going to find out for sure especially after the posts i have read from some people. he never spent time in prison and he's never been charged with assault or anything like that. i know its a lot of DUI stuff and petty stuff. in fact, im almost certain that he has gun rights because my uncle was slightly worse and he legally buys guns all the time.

taiwon
12-01-2012, 3:44 PM
You do not want your father to have access to the shotgun in the restaurant, for his sake and yours. See this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=636365)

thanks a lot friend, very helpful. im pretty sure my father isnt a felon but i will make sure of course especially after reading the replies here

winnre
12-01-2012, 3:50 PM
Felons know if they are felons. It's like not being sure if you are male or not. If he tap dances, he's a felon. He needs to face the music or get his own rap sheet if he is unsure.

taiwon
12-01-2012, 4:05 PM
Felons know if they are felons. It's like not being sure if you are male or not. If he tap dances, he's a felon. He needs to face the music or get his own rap sheet if he is unsure.

yeah we're definitely going to pull up his rap sheet and make sure. and honestly, it was so long ago and he's changed so much that he isnt really sure what he is. but my mom knows everything about him and she says that he's not felon. but you know, there's no such a thing as being too safe.

he's not hiding from the possible fact that he's a felon, that's why he doesnt vote or buy firearms. he lives by that "better safe than sorry" mindset so he doesnt even bother with that stuff. and the reason why he's not sure is because so much was going on during his early 20's that it was almost impossible for him to keep track of what was going on in his life. i even found out that during that time he had a family before my family lol, i literally found out that i have almost 40 year old step sisters. he joined the army after jail though, doesnt that prove he's not a felon because felons arent allowed into the army? or are they? excuse my naivety.

jrock
12-01-2012, 6:10 PM
I had a roommate whom had an old felony. He told me once he knew I had some weapons in the house.
I did some research for him.
Recordbegone.com or similiar reduced to misdemeanor than expunged the misdemeanor.
So now his record supposedly shows he had a felony charge reduced to misdemeanor which was expunged.

Shasta Frog
12-01-2012, 6:57 PM
Regardless of what any law says I see it one of two ways. (1) Pull the trigger and be alive. Possibly go to prison but at least you get visitation so you can see your family. Or (2) Die worrying about breaking the law defending yourself. For me family comes first.

huntercf
12-01-2012, 7:23 PM
He can fill out the form from the DOJ and see if he is prohibited, I would recommend that if you have guns and there is one in the restaurant. Plus, if he is not prohibited maybe you can take him to the range.

winnre
12-01-2012, 8:23 PM
Regardless of what any law says I see it one of two ways. (1) Pull the trigger and be alive. Possibly go to prison but at least you get visitation so you can see your family. Or (2) Die worrying about breaking the law defending yourself. For me family comes first.

In the book "How to Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail" there is an example of a felon using a gun. I do not know all the points of order to be legal but they do exist in a life and death situation. Good book.

baileymyk
12-01-2012, 8:45 PM
I hate to disagree but... your life is more important than breaking any law .. ever.
Anyone that has ever been in a situation to present a firearm to defend their life understands that their only objective is to stay alive. Everything else is pebbles on the ground.

bruss01
12-01-2012, 8:55 PM
wow thanks guys this is really surprising and helpful. i just talked to my mother, she said that my father never went to prison before, just county jail for a couple months and it wasn't for a violent crime just DUI stuff. she told me that he actually still has the right to vote and to even purchase firearms but that he doesn't choose to because he would feel embarrassed to put on a firearm form that he's had a felony before or something like that (my dad is a pretty big introvert). as for him having access to my mossberg 500, i was asking this question assuming if he was a felon- it was a big hypothetical. he most likely isnt a felon but im going to find out for sure especially after the posts i have read from some people. he never spent time in prison and he's never been charged with assault or anything like that. i know its a lot of DUI stuff and petty stuff. in fact, im almost certain that he has gun rights because my uncle was slightly worse and he legally buys guns all the time.

Was he ever convicted of a felony charge? That is what determines whether he is, now, here, today - a felon... UNLESS that conviction has been pardoned/expunged legally.

If he was convicted of a felony but never served jail time (sentenced to parole only or community service) he is still a felon now, today.

If he was charged with a felony, but plead it down to a misdemeanor charge, he is not now, and never was, a felon.

You need to find out what exactly he was convicted of, a felony or misdemeanor, before this discussion can have any more possible benefit for you or him.

If he WAS in fact convicted of a felony charge, the odds look bleak for him ever regaining his rights but it is worth inquiring about. If he was convicted of a felony and has been voting all these years that is a big NO-NO and he could be in serious trouble for that.... as well as for having access to a firearm in the restaurant, that's a big potential legal quagmire if he gets nailed for it.

Fill out this form and send it in according to the instructions with the required $20 fee. That should tell you what you need to know.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf

IVC
12-01-2012, 8:57 PM
I hate to disagree but... your life is more important than breaking any law .. ever.
Anyone that has ever been in a situation to present a firearm to defend their life understands that their only objective is to stay alive. Everything else is pebbles on the ground.

Again, this is only true IF it comes to the life or death situation. The legal problems start immediately, just on the account that there are firearms around.

oddjob
12-01-2012, 9:05 PM
Do your family and yourself a favor and lock your guns up first. You would hate to see your father get prosecuted for something you did (leaving guns accessible to him).

"He can fill out the form from the DOJ and see if he is prohibited, I would recommend that if you have guns and there is one in the restaurant. Plus, if he is not prohibited maybe you can take him to the range."

Do this next......Cheaper than a lawyer and will probably give you and your father some needed information for the attorney (if an attorney is even needed).

good luck!

roushstage2
12-01-2012, 9:11 PM
thanks a lot friend, very helpful. im pretty sure my father isnt a felon but i will make sure of course especially after reading the replies here

Just because you have a felony, does not mean you have spent time in prison. Also, there are misdemeanors that take away gun rights. The only way to know for sure is: 1. not having been convicted of any felony and 2. not having been convicted of one of the specific misdemeanors that takes away your gun rights.

sholling
12-01-2012, 9:41 PM
A lot will depend on where he was arrested. Many states allow complete expungement with restoration of rights, California usually does not. Have him see see a lawyer to be sure.

taiwon
12-02-2012, 12:23 AM
got an update: my mom said that he did in fact get a felony from a DUI and he spent like.... 3 months in jail. she said something that like all his records are expunged. i know getting expunged is a good thing but is he in the green or no? is there a chance that he's still not suppose to be around firearms?

curtisfong
12-02-2012, 1:03 AM
Did you fill out the PFEC yet? Nobody here knows what your father did or did not do. Fill out the form, send it in.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf

Stop futzing around and do something useful

roushstage2
12-02-2012, 2:45 AM
got an update: my mom said that he did in fact get a felony from a DUI and he spent like.... 3 months in jail. she said something that like all his records are expunged. i know getting expunged is a good thing but is he in the green or no? is there a chance that he's still not suppose to be around firearms?

Did you fill out the PFEC yet? Nobody here knows what your father did or did not do. Fill out the form, send it in.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/pfecapp.pdf

Stop futzing around and do something useful

^^^^^ Do this!!! ^^^^^

donny douchebag
12-02-2012, 4:37 AM
The lesson of this thread is "garbage in, garbage out".

edwardm
12-02-2012, 5:57 AM
The lesson of this thread is "garbage in, garbage out".

That's what happens when the law firm of Armchair, Morning & After pipes up with legal advice in these forums.

bruss01
12-02-2012, 7:45 AM
got an update: my mom said that he did in fact get a felony from a DUI and he spent like.... 3 months in jail. she said something that like all his records are expunged. i know getting expunged is a good thing but is he in the green or no? is there a chance that he's still not suppose to be around firearms?

I have heard of "deals" that are cut sometimes where, if you keep your nose clean for a certain amount of time, they will drop the charge or change it to a lesser charge or some such.

As stated before in this thread by myself and others... send in the eligibility form and get the straight dope. Anything else is just wasted breath and motion.

bwiese
12-02-2012, 11:22 AM
A lotta noobs and mountain people are talkin' out their arse in this thread...



Convicted felons indeed CAN vote in CA. This is a state-to-state thing. Registration/ability to vote is
in no way an indicator of full civil rights restoration.
.
Expungment alone, with or without a Certificate of Rehabilitation, is insufficient to recover gunrights
for a convicted felon. That's more of a 'record sealing' gig for private employment (or for non-
high-security jobs).
.
In CA a pure felony (i.e., not a 'wobbler' that could be sentenced to a misdemanor, infraction and/or
nuisance) would require Governor's action to set aside/restore rights. Don't assume this is other than
rare/super-remotely possible and with huge lawyer fees over extended time.
.
Attempts to reduce felonies in other states must be done working with those states - no CA gov't action
can clear another states' felonies.
.
In CA 'wobbler' felonies can be resentenced to misdemeanors thru the "17(b)" process. Rights can then
be recovered. In some situations the local DA may not like this (given severity or publicity of original act,
or just plain politics) and may try to oppose. Common instances of this going thru, however, are youthful
drug, vandalism, theft/bad check charges and an otherwise-clean background afterward.

Given most DUIs are misdemeanors, a felony DUI usually indicates some sort of signifcant problem/damage.
.
Federal felonies pretty much can't be cleared except thru Presidential pardon. Thru the mid-1980s there used
to be a gun rights "rehabilitation" operation for Fed. felons run thru ATF but Congress has killed funding for it
for the past 25+ years.
.
In limited cases - and in plea bargains only, not judge or jury trials - an error coram nobis petition can be
submitted. This is based on the idea the plea was incorrectly entered because (roughly/broadly) defendant
made an improper decision due to poor or inadequate or undisclosed information. This process, if approved,
essentially resets the 'clock' before moment of trial and is a 'do-over' with the idea that new info may be
mitigating and there might be a less severe (or no) outcome.
.
Convicted felons should not have any access to firearms, magazinesor ammunition. I'd tell any such felon
he should not even be "near" such items or remotely be considered to have access.
..
Gun owners should not have guns, ammo or magazines around felons. If such living situations are unavoidable,
these items need to be REALLY LOCKED UP and NO CHANCE access to is allowed. A locked gun case in a closet
doesn't smell too good to me; a real gunsafe where there is no combo access to the felon, and/or a room where
guns are locked up and felon has zero access to may be enough.

Given the OP'S dad's estaraunt situation is not a living situation and is under control/ownership of the felon, I
don't think any employee or family member should store a gun, ammo and/or magazines there.
.
People CAN be charged for 'providing' guns to a felon.
.
Ignore any "mountain people" idiots above who think there's some sort of 'duress' ability to, long term, possess
firearms for defensive uses. There is a limited short-term exemption for a felon to, say, somehow defensively use
one introduced to a situation (i.e, truly happened to be nearby or taken away from an assailant). In no way
does that mean an illegally-possessed gun stored in a closet and "legitimately used" by the felon will not result
in felon-with-gun charges - even if the actual *use* of the gun in defense was OK.
.
It appears from OP's posting that English is a 2nd langauge perhaps to him and most likely to his father. Given
this, he should not try to do any wobbler-felony-to-misdemeanor reduction result himself, but contact a lawyer
who does this.

Meplat
12-02-2012, 1:30 PM
Bill:

What about ditching the shotgun and the OP and or other non-prohibited persons in the restaurant actually carrying side arms on their persons? As long as they never took them off, left them laying around, or stored them there?



A lotta noobs and mountain people are talkin' out their arse in this thread...



Convicted felons indeed CAN vote in CA. This is a state-to-state thing. Registration/ability to vote is
in no way an indicator of full civil rights restoration.
.
Expungment alone, with or without a Certificate of Rehabilitation, is insufficient to recover gunrights
for a convicted felon. That's more of a 'record sealing' gig for private employment (or for non-
high-security jobs).
.
In CA a pure felony (i.e., not a 'wobbler' that could be sentenced to a misdemanor, infraction and/or
nuisance) would require Governor's action to set aside/restore rights. Don't assume this is other than
rare/super-remotely possible and with huge lawyer fees over extended time.
.
Attempts to reduce felonies in other states must be done working with those states - no CA gov't action
can clear another states' felonies.
.
In CA 'wobbler' felonies can be resentenced to misdemeanors thru the "17(b)" process. Rights can then
be recovered. In some situations the local DA may not like this (given severity or publicity of original act,
or just plain politics) and may try to oppose. Common instances of this going thru, however, are youthful
drug, vandalism, theft/bad check charges and an otherwise-clean background afterward.

Given most DUIs are misdemeanors, a felony DUI usually indicates some sort of signifcant problem/damage.
.
Federal felonies pretty much can't be cleared except thru Presidential pardon. Thru the mid-1980s there used
to be a gun rights "rehabilitation" operation for Fed. felons run thru ATF but Congress has killed funding for it
for the past 25+ years.
.
In limited cases - and in plea bargains only, not judge or jury trials - an error coram nobis petition can be
submitted. This is based on the idea the plea was incorrectly entered because (roughly/broadly) defendant
made an improper decision due to poor or inadequate or undisclosed information. This process, if approved,
essentially resets the 'clock' before moment of trial and is a 'do-over' with the idea that new info may be
mitigating and there might be a less severe (or no) outcome.
.
Convicted felons should not have any access to firearms, magazinesor ammunition. I'd tell any such felon
he should not even be "near" such items or remotely be considered to have access.
..
Gun owners should not have guns, ammo or magazines around felons. If such living situations are unavoidable,
these items need to be REALLY LOCKED UP and NO CHANCE access to is allowed. A locked gun case in a closet
doesn't smell too good to me; a real gunsafe where there is no combo access to the felon, and/or a room where
guns are locked up and felon has zero access to may be enough.

Given the OP'S dad's estaraunt situation is not a living situation and is under control/ownership of the felon, I
don't think any employee or family member should store a gun, ammo and/or magazines there.
.
People CAN be charged for 'providing' guns to a felon.
.
Ignore any "mountain people" idiots above who think there's some sort of 'duress' ability to, long term, possess
firearms for defensive uses. There is a limited short-term exemption for a felon to, say, somehow defensively use
one introduced to a situation (i.e, truly happened to be nearby or taken away from an assailant). In no way
does that mean an illegally-possessed gun stored in a closet and "legitimately used" by the felon will not result
in felon-with-gun charges - even if the actual *use* of the gun in defense was OK.
.
It appears from OP's posting that English is a 2nd langauge perhaps to him and most likely to his father. Given
this, he should not try to do any wobbler-felony-to-misdemeanor reduction result himself, but contact a lawyer
who does this.

bwiese
12-02-2012, 1:43 PM
Bill:

What about ditching the shotgun and the OP and or other non-prohibited persons in the restaurant actually carrying side arms on their persons? As long as they never took them off, left them laying around, or stored them there?

Visitors CCWing? Sure.

I worry about staff members with guns in relation to this. (Unrealistic as 99.9% of biz except gun shops don't allow staff to carry.)

I do recall some court drama regarding DEA informant Barry Seal. As he was (approximately) let go for Fed 'time served' being a cooperating but convicted witness - it seems the court nevertheless ordered him not to have a firearm - and to not even hire armed bodyguards as he would 'constructively possess' firearms. [These are the broad strokes I recall readng from a writeup as well as the Dennis Hopper movie.] Seal was killed shortly afterward.

Meplat
12-02-2012, 3:39 PM
Visitors CCWing? Sure.

I worry about staff members with guns in relation to this. (Unrealistic as 99.9% of biz except gun shops don't allow staff to carry.)

I do recall some court drama regarding DEA informant Barry Seal. As he was (approximately) let go for Fed 'time served' being a cooperating but convicted witness - it seems the court nevertheless ordered him not to have a firearm - and to not even hire armed bodyguards as he would 'constructively possess' firearms. [These are the broad strokes I recall readng from a writeup as well as the Dennis Hopper movie.] Seal was killed shortly afterward.


Please don’t be derisive, I was just asking questions of someone I thought knew the answers.

I did not say CCW that was your assumption and we are talking about family members not mear "visitors".

This is not the 99% this is a family owned business seeking to defend its self. It is a matter of PR and liability, not the law.

I thought it was obvious that I was asking questions about the law; not movies and court orders; big difference.

Your reply seems to be advocating a personal opinion rather than being informational; sorry I bothered you.

Mike

bwiese
12-02-2012, 3:59 PM
Meplat you are reading a tone into my response that is not there.

I was replying in an attempt to cover all ground.

Remember that both CA law and Fed law are involved btw.

I am unsure this has really ever been addressed in courts directly either.

taiwon
12-02-2012, 11:11 PM
A lotta noobs and mountain people are talkin' out their arse in this thread...



Convicted felons indeed CAN vote in CA. This is a state-to-state thing. Registration/ability to vote is
in no way an indicator of full civil rights restoration.
.
Expungment alone, with or without a Certificate of Rehabilitation, is insufficient to recover gunrights
for a convicted felon. That's more of a 'record sealing' gig for private employment (or for non-
high-security jobs).
.
In CA a pure felony (i.e., not a 'wobbler' that could be sentenced to a misdemanor, infraction and/or
nuisance) would require Governor's action to set aside/restore rights. Don't assume this is other than
rare/super-remotely possible and with huge lawyer fees over extended time.
.
Attempts to reduce felonies in other states must be done working with those states - no CA gov't action
can clear another states' felonies.
.
In CA 'wobbler' felonies can be resentenced to misdemeanors thru the "17(b)" process. Rights can then
be recovered. In some situations the local DA may not like this (given severity or publicity of original act,
or just plain politics) and may try to oppose. Common instances of this going thru, however, are youthful
drug, vandalism, theft/bad check charges and an otherwise-clean background afterward.

Given most DUIs are misdemeanors, a felony DUI usually indicates some sort of signifcant problem/damage.
.
Federal felonies pretty much can't be cleared except thru Presidential pardon. Thru the mid-1980s there used
to be a gun rights "rehabilitation" operation for Fed. felons run thru ATF but Congress has killed funding for it
for the past 25+ years.
.
In limited cases - and in plea bargains only, not judge or jury trials - an error coram nobis petition can be
submitted. This is based on the idea the plea was incorrectly entered because (roughly/broadly) defendant
made an improper decision due to poor or inadequate or undisclosed information. This process, if approved,
essentially resets the 'clock' before moment of trial and is a 'do-over' with the idea that new info may be
mitigating and there might be a less severe (or no) outcome.
.
Convicted felons should not have any access to firearms, magazinesor ammunition. I'd tell any such felon
he should not even be "near" such items or remotely be considered to have access.
..
Gun owners should not have guns, ammo or magazines around felons. If such living situations are unavoidable,
these items need to be REALLY LOCKED UP and NO CHANCE access to is allowed. A locked gun case in a closet
doesn't smell too good to me; a real gunsafe where there is no combo access to the felon, and/or a room where
guns are locked up and felon has zero access to may be enough.

Given the OP'S dad's estaraunt situation is not a living situation and is under control/ownership of the felon, I
don't think any employee or family member should store a gun, ammo and/or magazines there.
.
People CAN be charged for 'providing' guns to a felon.
.
Ignore any "mountain people" idiots above who think there's some sort of 'duress' ability to, long term, possess
firearms for defensive uses. There is a limited short-term exemption for a felon to, say, somehow defensively use
one introduced to a situation (i.e, truly happened to be nearby or taken away from an assailant). In no way
does that mean an illegally-possessed gun stored in a closet and "legitimately used" by the felon will not result
in felon-with-gun charges - even if the actual *use* of the gun in defense was OK.
.
It appears from OP's posting that English is a 2nd langauge perhaps to him and most likely to his father. Given
this, he should not try to do any wobbler-felony-to-misdemeanor reduction result himself, but contact a lawyer
who does this.


what the hell?? where do you get that english is a 2nd language to me?? even if that were true, (which it isnt) what the hell does that matter? my english is fine thank you very much and for your information my parents talked to a lawyer over 13 years ago and paid a lot of money to get his non violent felony expunged. way to make a blank unsupported statement, that was way outta left field. and i agree with the guy before you, your argument seems more emotional than anything else. i dont like felons either, but you seem to be hell-bent on disarming my restaurant over the possible fact that my father MIGHT be a felon from a non violent crime that happened 30 years ago. i emphasize the word "MIGHT" because i never said that he was a felon, so you can cool down with wanting to disarm me. im not going to need to contact a lawyer for this, im just going to fill out that form that one guy above posted and see what happens from there. if my dad ends up being a felon still then my family will contact a lawyer and see what we can do in regards to his gun rights. the thing is though, the situation i mentioned in the beginning of this thread, is highly hypothetical. he would only be near my shotgun if it was literally the last option on earth. he doesn't even really like guns or care about his right to bear arms, he just supports my hobby (which i think is really awesome). He's fully aware that he MIGHT be a felon and therefore MIGHT be unable to be around guns, that's why him and our family are dependent on ME to defend them with any firearms (im at the restaurant 99% of the time he is there which is every single day every year except major holidays). during the time this form is going to take to get authorized, im just going to assume he's not a felon and continue to keep the weapon at the store because the family knows that its my responsibility to protect them with a firearm if it ever came down to it, it would have nothing to do with him. but of course, you never know what the outcome of one of those god awful situations could be and if my worse dreams come true and i end up in court somehow with a liberal-@ss gun-hating prosecutor that somehow finds out my dad is a felon; well... id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 anytime. so no regrets. especially since our family business has been stuck-up 3 times in one year by bad guys with guns. that's why i became a gun owner.

Mesa Tactical
12-03-2012, 7:14 AM
i dont like felons either, but you seem to be hell-bent on disarming my restaurant over the possible fact that my father MIGHT be a felon from a non violent crime that happened 30 years ago. i emphasize the word "MIGHT" because i never said that he was a felon, so you can cool down with wanting to disarm me. im not going to need to contact a lawyer for this, im just going to fill out that form that one guy above posted and see what happens from there.

Dear N00b,

As you will learn after reading more of his (admittedly snarky, and often entertainingly so) posts, Bill W doesn't want to disarm anyone. He's simply offering you some concrete advice based on years of experience working closing with gun rights lawyers in California. If you did not want such advice I'm not sure why you started the thread.

Starting a thread like this is a first step to seeking truth. Lots of opinions are tossed around, but in the end what usually becomes apparent is that every case is different and a lawyer should probably be consulted. But you don't want to do that either.

Bill also suggested that you, personally, could get into trouble by making firearms available to a felon (if he's a felon; none of us really know and it sounds like you might not be sure either). You may have no reason to believe Bill knows what he's talking about, but assuming he's right your refusal to accept his advice could cost you your gun rights. Probably unlikely, but that should be enough for you to look more closely into the matter and, again, seek the advice of a experienced (in gun law) attorney.

roushstage2
12-03-2012, 8:16 AM
what the hell?? where do you get that english is a 2nd language to me??
It was a joke since you haven't grasped the concept of grammar.

he would only be near my shotgun if it was literally the last option on earth....He's fully aware that he MIGHT be a felon and therefore MIGHT be unable to be around guns, ...im just going to assume he's not a felon and continue to keep the weapon at the store...
Again, you are missing the point. You shouldn't assume he's not. You should assume he is a restricted person until you know for certain. Your father AND YOU can get in trouble for the firearm being accessible to him if he is restricted. You came and asked for advice and information. Don't get upset over the conversation being personal. It was a personal question about your family and yourself; how did you expect the conversation to go?

id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 anytime. so no regrets. especially since our family business has been stuck-up 3 times in one year by bad guys with guns. that's why i became a gun owner.
Based on your reply and this attitude, you don't seem to care much either way. The possibility is there that the firearm shouldn't be there, but you "don't care" because you'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6...whatever that has to do with your original question/concern.

Meplat
12-03-2012, 8:28 AM
It was a joke

Yikes! That went over like a fart in church.:D

Meplat
12-03-2012, 8:50 AM
Meplat you are reading a tone into my response that is not there.

Sorry I misread you.:o


I was replying in an attempt to cover all ground.

Remember that both CA law and Fed law are involved btw.

I am unsure this has really ever been addressed in courts directly either.

I think I am confused again.:confused: A felon with access has been addressed as has providing access for a felon; no?

Mike

fiddletown
12-03-2012, 9:08 AM
Keeping a gun where a prohibited person has access to it could result in the non-prohibited gun owner being tried in federal court on a charge of aiding and abetting a prohibited person's possession of a gun.

When the Third Circuit looked at the issue a while ago, it let stand an indictment for aiding and abetting the unlawful possession of a gun by a prohibited persons in a situation in which a gun owner had a cohabitant who was a prohibited person.

The point in that case, United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), was that the gun the prohibited person was charged with possessing was not secured against the prohibited person's access, supporting both the prohibited person's conviction for unlawful possession of a gun and the indictment of his cohabitant. From the opinion (at pg. 593, emphasis added):...on June 6, 2008, a valid search warrant (the “search warrant”) was executed on the couple‟s Clarion County home. Agents seized an SKS, Interordnance M59/66 rifle (“SKS rifle”) from an upstairs bedroom.

Although Huet is legally permitted to possess a firearm, Hall was convicted in 1999 of possessing an unregistered firearm, in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 5861(d), and is therefore prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm. After being informed of the raid, Huet allegedly told investigators that the guns in the house belonged to her and that it was not illegal for her to purchase weapons. Despite Huet‟s assertions that she alone possessed the SKS rifle, the Government sought and obtained an indictment charging Hall with illegal possession of the weapon, and Huet with aiding and abetting Hall‟s possession....

roushstage2
12-03-2012, 9:12 AM
Yikes! That went over like a fart in church.:D

Just about, lol :D

bwiese
12-03-2012, 10:18 AM
what the hell?? where do you get that english is a 2nd language to me??
even if that were true, (which it isnt) what the hell does that matter?


Perception garnered from writing and your username.

My worry was you and/or your dad would try to go read some laws without counsel and make an incorrect determination - and get both you and your dad in trouble.

This happens to many people, not just you - look at a bunch of the incorrect info others have posted here.


my english is fine thank you very much


Paragraph separation, grammar and avoidance of run-on sentences really do help continuity and readability.


and for your information my parents talked to a lawyer over 13 years ago and paid a lot of money to get his non violent felony expunged.

You were just informed that expungement has zero legal force in gun rights recovery. A decent lawyer would have explained that to your family.



way to make a blank unsupported statement, that was way outta left field. and i agree with the guy before you, your argument seems more emotional than anything else

Jeez get a grip sonny. I laid out the most detailed reply in this thread showing areas of concern and methods of (possible) rights recovery.

The fact you have such concerns means YOUR DAD SHOULD NOT BE AROUND GUNS, AMMO AND MAGAZINES, and you should NOT until you learn better remotely create an unfortunate legal situation WHERE YOU BOTH GET INTO TROUBLE.

It's very funny that you state your case (not that clearly), someone spends time 'covering all the bases' and then you get mad when you hear answers you don't want to hear.

FROM YOUR WRITINGS
- YOUR DAD IS A CONVICTED FELON.
- AT BEST HE'S HAD AN 'EXPUNGEMENT' WHICH does NOT restore gun rights;
- IF YOU HAVE 'LOOSE' GUN IN BIZ THERE IS LARGE RISK OF FELON-IN-POSSESSION, either as CA State and/or a Federal matter.

I AM NOT B.S.ing you!!!


. i dont like felons either, but you seem to be hell-bent on disarming my restaurant over the possible fact that my father MIGHT be a felon from a non violent crime that happened 30 years ago.

WTH does 'violent' vs' 'non-violent' have to do with 'felon in possession'??

And given your dad indeed appears to be still a felon for gunfights purposes you have no business trying to get him 'closer to a gun'.



i emphasize the word "MIGHT" because i never said that he was a felon, so you can cool down with wanting to disarm me. im not going to need to contact a lawyer for this, im just going to fill out that form that one guy above posted and see what happens from there.

1. You sure as hell said he was convicted of a felony.
2. If you ain't sure, you err on the side of caution. Felon-in-possession is no joke.

Also, you are mistaking the PFEC check for 'reality'.

Just because that accidentally somehow may not show your dad is a prohibited person, it is a database that can have errors. California DOJ does a very poor job of database administration. Gun records are terrible in other related spheres, and lord knows there's enough *CLEARED* records that are still indicating felonies.

Given what you have written, even if the PFEC came back clear, if I were you/your dad I would in fact
1. go find old record/history and double check felony conviction;
2. see if the expungement really is just expungement with no 17(b) motion.

If that situation exists, the PFEC record is invalid. Never let an accidental record status override such a situation - if you/he know he's a felon from the above, the erroneous PFEC is not really relevant.

BTW, a felon that had an incorrectly clear PFEC may still have not that much of a defense against Fed 'felon in possession' charges. You perhaps have a *defense* but that's about it.


he would only be near my shotgun if it was literally the last option on earth. he doesn't even really like guns or care about his right to bear arms,


The situation you outlined with SG at biz definitely risks felon-on possession charges unless you are super super careful - please see case cite from 'fiddle town' above to show the risks.

Please be careful.

bwiese
12-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Sorry I misread you.:o

I think I am confused again.:confused: A felon with access has been addressed as has providing access for a felon; no?

Mike

Yes, *access* indeed - at home.

I see perhaps some risk of different handling if employee, working for prohibited person, brings gun to work and really doesn't have great separate super-locked storage etc.

Shane916
12-03-2012, 10:48 AM
To help out Bill, everything he states is correct. Further, to answer your question regarding:

i dont like felons either, but you seem to be hell-bent on disarming my restaurant over the possible fact that my father MIGHT be a felon from a non violent crime that happened 30 years ago. i emphasize the word "MIGHT" because i never said that he was a felon,

You actually said multiple times he is a felon


my father was a felon


got an update: my mom said that he did in fact get a felony

You seem to contradict yourself multiple times though:

. he most likely isnt a felon

im pretty sure my father isnt a felon

. but my mom knows everything about him and she says that he's not felon....he's not hiding from the possible fact that he's a felon

mxadam579
12-03-2012, 10:54 AM
just my .02 if sumone has a felony kep guns away

tbhracing
12-03-2012, 11:00 AM
Side note/question- How about Dad using a pepper spray canister for self defense in the resturant?

boxbro
12-03-2012, 12:37 PM
i never said that he was a felon

Read the title of this thread, which YOU created.

Meplat
12-03-2012, 1:02 PM
my father was a felon over 30 years ago

thanks

Taiwon:

You and your mother need to visit your favorite gun shop. Get your mother to buy a pistol and gift it to you. You cannot buy a handgun until you are 21, but it is legal for you to own and possess one if your mother transfers it to you via an inter family transfer. If your mom is willing to have a gun, and will do the training and practice needed to be safe and effective with it, get her to buy one for herself also.

Then get some training. It sounds like you were not born into the gun culture and you are having to figure things out on your own. It also sounds like you have experience with only long guns. A hand gun is a whole different animal! Get training!!! I cannot emphasize that enough! Find an instructor who will train you one on one; or at least in a group of no more than four students. He should also teach the dos and don’ts of self defense, the nuts and bolts of tactics, situational awareness, the legal and emotional consequences of homicide, even when justifiable. Start asking around at ranges and gun shops for their recommendations. Then try to find people who have trained with him and ask them about their experience.

Getting into a gunfight at a restaurant is a deadly serious matter. I have a CCW and carry every day. I have my favorite restaurants that I frequent. When you spend a lot of time at a place you get to know the staff, they become friends. I learned in the Navy to sit with my back to the wall, facing the door. If someone comes in and sticks a gun in the cashier’s face and all they want is the money, no problem, but if I think they are about to hurt someone, I’ll blow them away. But the only reason to shoot is if you are truly in fear of death or great bodily harm coming to yourself or others.

The consequences are just overwhelming. Consider the fact that where you live the DA will probably try to crucify you. That means that you and your family will probably lose every cent you have paying for your defense. Your home, your cars, your business, will all be gone. Win or lose, you lose. And win or lose you will have to defend yourselves in a wrongful death suite where the standard of proof is not ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’, but a preponderance of the evidence. That means 51%; if the jury thinks the likelihood of you being guilty is over 50% you lose. YOU DON’T WANT TO SHOOT ANYONE; even if you are callous enough to want to, you still don’t want to. And god help you if you shoot an innocent bystander. When you are twenty you think you are bullet proof, that is why they send 19 & 20 year olds to war. But you can ruin your whole life in an instant with one mistake. Let them have the money.

Get a book by Masad Ayoob titled “In The Gravest Extreme” and read it often. And get training! And let them have the money! Remember, you must legitimately be in fear of death, or great bodily harm.

When at the restaurant, ware the gun on your person; never take it out or off. Never try to intimidate a bad guy with a gun, don’t let the BG see it until you have decided you have to shoot, then get on with it as quickly as possible. Get training.

I welcome all the critique I am sure I will get from the community.

P. S. Get that shotgun out of the store yesterday!

P. P. S. If you live at home and don’t have a gun safe, get one, and don’t let Dad have the combo. Keep everything locked up unless it is in your immediate control.

AVS
12-03-2012, 1:15 PM
To the OP....

I find Bwiese to be acerbic and needlessly derogatory at times. I have told him this more than once as I think it's divisive, which is dangerous.

That said, when he talks about gun laws, I listen. You should too.

tcrpe
12-03-2012, 1:55 PM
because i never said that he was a felon

Um, you said it four times in your first post, alone . . . . . . . . . . .:shrug:

tcrpe
12-03-2012, 3:12 PM
It seems to me:

If you want to know the truth about whether your dad has a felony conviction, you won't get the truth from your dad, the felon, or your mom, his enabler.

If you want to know the facts about your dad's felony conviction, you won't get them for your dad, the felon, or your mom, his enabler.

taiwon
12-03-2012, 3:57 PM
To the OP....

I find Bwiese to be acerbic and needlessly derogatory at times. I have told him this more than once as I think it's divisive, which is dangerous.

That said, when he talks about gun laws, I listen. You should too.

This is exactly what happened. It's a sensitive issue to me and of course I expected truthful and informative answers. people who sent me links were very helpful and one person even sent me a PM and that was helpful as well. Bwiese is actually very helpful too but his very derogatory tone at certain times kinda blinded me from anything helpful he told me so for that, I apologize for acting immature. on top of that, I've never encountered him before so for all I knew, he could've been some 19 year old kid like me trying to school me. I didn't know he was a respected and known member of calguns.
As for the grammar mistakes and whatever well I'm sorry that I don't really care about writing A+ quality paper when I'm online lol. Still, the deragatory meter couldve been turned down a little. In the future, I'll know this is his style and not take offense to it.

taiwon
12-03-2012, 3:59 PM
On a totally unrelated matter, how do you delete old threads? I have two threads that don't have any activity anymore and I would like to delete them if possible

bwiese
12-03-2012, 4:19 PM
Taiwon,

I am sorry you took my fact-based post above as derogatory. Wasn't intended that way, except one snarky section directed to another poster [Sierra-somebody] that said to ignore the laws.

I had more than rational reason to think - in combination with your user name and writing styles - that you (and/or your dad) aren't native english speakers. It does help when you ask a question to state matters accurately and in an easy-to-read fashion; I admit that much poor writing and formatting is in part due to our poor public school systems [and parenting].

Please do understand we have enough issues with folks BORN & RAISED here not reading/knowing the laws properly that those with more of a lingusitic burden are liable to step into deep doo-doo.

Felons-with-guns is a serious legal issue -whether or not the felony was due to violence. These are EASY cases to prosecute. That's why, in a doubtful situation as you apparently posed, that you run with an abundance of caution.

Please remember one was attacking you - and many folks here were indeed trying to keep you and Dad out of jail. When I answer a question here, I generally attempt to "cover the ground" of not just your stated specific situation, but surrounding matters/edge cases that you or other readers might wander into....

One other advantage of writing posts in at least a slightly snarky fashion is that the subject gets more attention/retention by other readers, and information gets wider dispersal, even if they're p*ssed off. In other words, the information in the response may help out more than one guy (you) and not suddenly get forgotten by everyone else ;-)

taperxz
12-03-2012, 4:43 PM
Dear OP, Bwiess knows nothing about gun laws. (perhaps:rolleyes:) I do know one thing though, he could school your lawyer on anything related to firearms.

You can pretty much take that to the bank. You are arguing with the expert. Someone who took the time and knowledge to give it to you the way it really is.

Mesa Tactical
12-03-2012, 4:59 PM
If Bill was prohibited from being snarky he'd probably stop posting and then where would we be?

taiwon
12-03-2012, 5:00 PM
If Bill was prohibited from being snarky he'd probably stop posting and then where would we be?

we'd be pretty uninformed from what im getting

roushstage2
12-03-2012, 5:07 PM
we'd be pretty uninformed from what im getting

Well, you're not wrong :)

bwiese
12-03-2012, 5:14 PM
If Bill was prohibited from being snarky he'd probably stop posting and then where would we be?

It's my writing style.

People who have met me in person will prob not say I am snarky or mean except when I am talking about legalities of dead hookers in your trunk if your taillights work OK ;-)

... or when I am yelling at the magnetic bullet-button override idiots at gunshows!

... or the cops who wrote me after a TV appearance saying I didn't understand, AWs required special training that BulletButton rifles didn't.
[No joke.]

Meplat
12-03-2012, 5:23 PM
Taiwon,

I am sorry you took my fact-based post above as derogatory. It Wasn't intended that way, except one snarky section directed to another poster [Sierra-somebody] that said to ignore the laws.

I had more than rational reason to think - in combination with your user name and writing styles -(I did not know that hyphens could be substituted for commas) that you (and/or your dad) aren't native english speakers. It does help when you ask a question, to state matters accurately and in an easy-to-read fashion; I admit that much poor writing and formatting is in part due to our poor public school systems [and parenting].

Please do understand we have enough issues with folks BORN & RAISED here not reading/knowing the laws properly. Those with more of a lingusitic burden are liable to step into deep doo-doo.

Felons-with-guns is a serious legal issue (Is this a comma, or a typo?)-whether or not the felony was due to violence. These are EASY cases to prosecute. That's why, in a doubtful situation as you apparently posed, that you should run with an abundance of caution.

Please remember no one was attacking you - and many folks here were indeed trying to keep you and Dad out of jail. When I answer a question here, I generally attempt to "cover the ground" of not just your stated specific situation, but surrounding matters/edge cases that you or other readers might wander into....

One other advantage of writing posts in at least a slightly snarky fashion is that the subject gets more attention/retention by other readers, and information gets wider dispersal, even if they're p*ssed off. In other words, the information in the response may help out more than one guy (you) and suddenly get forgotten by everyone else ;-)

Most of what I detected in Taiwon's first posts is typical of Americans of Asian decent. After being chided he has cleaned it up considerably. I have had the pleasure of being around these fine people on many occasions. They tend to slip back into their unique version of English when among friends and family, even if they can do much better. But I guess we put him in his place about thinking he was among friends!

All in all they are still easier to understand than a lot of Cajuns.

BTW; folks in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You should proof read some of your own stuff. You leave out words a lot and you tend to use "one" when you mean "on" once in a while, and vice versa. But please don't proof read any of my stuff.:43:

Is this snarky enough to be remembered? No offence intended Bill. I’m just having too much fun with this!:D

Meplat
12-03-2012, 5:38 PM
It's my writing style.

People who have met me in person will prob not say I am snarky or mean except when I am talking about legalities of dead hookers in your trunk if your taillights work OK ;-)

... or when I am yelling at the magnetic bullet-button override idiots at gunshows!

... or the cops who wrote me after a TV appearance saying I didn't understand, AWs required special training that BulletButton rifles didn't.
[No joke.]

They were probably confusing AW’s with true assault rifles. The users of which are benefited by extra training, especially cops.

winnre
12-03-2012, 8:16 PM
THis thread should be locked until the PFEC results come back. Until then we are all trolling.

IVC
12-03-2012, 8:56 PM
As for the grammar mistakes and whatever well I'm sorry that I don't really care about writing A+ quality paper when I'm online lol.

That's good because you are excelling at not writing A+ quality... :)

On a serious note, make sure you understand this is not a game and what looks naive or mundane can have serious consequences.