PDA

View Full Version : dummy linked ammo


Caribouriver
11-30-2012, 6:31 AM
A recent thread here struck a nerve. What if a person has 100 rds of linked dummy ammo as a decoration or prop? Is that illegal? Should it too be separated into 10 rd segments? Thank you.

killmime1234
11-30-2012, 6:39 AM
If the links will function with live ammunition then technically the belt is an "ammunition feeding device" and is subject to magazine capacity laws. However mere possession of high capacity "ammunition feeding devices" is not illegal. So, to answer your question: no, they would not need to be in links of 10 or less.

Quiet
11-30-2012, 6:56 AM
If the links can be used with any type of ammunition, then they must conform with CA's large capacity magazine laws.


Although it is not illegal to posess...
A large capacity magazine acquired via a non-exempt method is a nuisance item and can be legally confiscated by LEOs. [PC 32390]

Caribouriver
11-30-2012, 7:15 AM
I believe they are dummy 7.62x51 supposedly for the M60 (Pig) from Vietnam days in a little cardboard box inside a cotton bandoleer. It appears that it would be well advised to break the belt up into 10 dummy rd segments in CA. Rather inane to say the least. No weapon, no live ammo, but yes, links. If you made a wind chime out of the links, I guess you'd have to carefully count how long you made the strands.

Ajaxx
11-30-2012, 7:58 AM
I watch a guy linking 25 inert rounds, at a air show . He was selling them as souvenirs I asked if he knew he was breaking the law by making Hi Cap feeding devices & he just looked at me like I was some kind of retard. He told me these were not magazines, no **** Also ask a female CHP officer standing near by the same question & no answer.

killmime1234
11-30-2012, 9:38 AM
If the links can be used with any type of ammunition, then they must conform with CA's large capacity magazine laws.


Although it is not illegal to posess...
A large capacity magazine acquired via a non-exempt method is a nuisance item and can be legally confiscated by LEOs. [PC 32390]

That wording was illegally changed to allow confiscation when it was reorganized from 12020. I believe one would have legal recourse if legally possessed mags were confiscated, but I am not a lawyer.

Librarian
11-30-2012, 9:52 AM
That wording was illegally changed to allow confiscation when it was reorganized from 12020. I believe one would have legal recourse if legally possessed mags were confiscated, but I am not a lawyer.

No, wasn't illegal - just no one had noticed when AB23 failed to amend a part of PC that allowed confiscation and destruction of things like brass knuckles and sword canes when magazines were added to yet a different part.

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9211988&postcount=129

killmime1234
11-30-2012, 12:13 PM
No, wasn't illegal - just no one had noticed when AB23 failed to amend a part of PC that allowed confiscation and destruction of things like brass knuckles and sword canes when magazines were added to yet a different part.

See http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9211988&postcount=129

I see. Thank you for the correction.

OlderThanDirt
11-30-2012, 2:05 PM
A recent thread here struck a nerve. What if a person has 100 rds of linked dummy ammo as a decoration or prop? Is that illegal? Should it too be separated into 10 rd segments? Thank you.

If you owned the linked dummy ammo prior to 1/1/2000, no problem. Prior to y2k linked surplus ammo was fairly common at gun shows and generally cheap since it was considered a nuisance to have to unlink the stuff.

five.five-six
11-30-2012, 2:10 PM
If you owned the linked dummy ammo prior to 1/1/2000, no problem. Prior to y2k linked surplus ammo was fairly common at gun shows and generally cheap since it was considered a nuisance to have to unlink the stuff.

I rather enjoy unlinking .308. I use my handy M1919 delinking tool, makes it a breeze.

tuolumnejim
12-01-2012, 8:49 AM
I rather enjoy unlinking .308. I use my handy M1919 delinking tool, makes it a breeze.

But not with M60 links unless you have the unicorn type Canadian C5 setup that I want. :D

IrishJoe3
12-01-2012, 9:35 AM
I watch a guy linking 25 inert rounds, at a air show . He was selling them as souvenirs I asked if he knew he was breaking the law by making Hi Cap feeding devices & he just looked at me like I was some kind of retard. He told me these were not magazines, no **** Also ask a female CHP officer standing near by the same question & no answer.

:facepalm:

Wow. We ARE our own worst enemy.

Dude, why do you even care? Clearly even the cop didn't care

rromeo
12-01-2012, 10:01 AM
Now, if one owned a 100 round belt of dummy ammo, they could reload it with live rounds, correct? Leave 11 dummy rounds so you never go under, and keep rebuilding.

Caribouriver
12-01-2012, 2:46 PM
So if I understand correctly, owning/possessing a 100 rd belt of dummy M60 ammo is perfectly legal. No records required indicating how, when or where I came into possession. I just cannot give, sell, loan or barter it away. All those actions are illegal. Correct?

Also, if a CA resident sends away for for such a belt of dummy ammo, that would be a felony. Is that also correct? It seems so illogical if that is true. Get caught in the act of "importing", that's a felony. Be in possession of the imported object, no statute under which you can be charged. Am I missing something?

OlderThanDirt
12-01-2012, 2:56 PM
I rather enjoy unlinking .308. I use my handy M1919 delinking tool, makes it a breeze.

I have the same delinking tool. It was a little expensive, but very enjoyable. I still have a couple of cans of linked 50 BMG that needs to be delinked and need to buy an even more expensive M2 delinker. Funny how times change. I thought I was wasting a lot of money buying the linked 50 BMG at the Pomona gun show for about a buck a round. If only my financial investments did as well.

OlderThanDirt
12-01-2012, 3:06 PM
So if I understand correctly, owning/possessing a 100 rd belt of dummy M60 ammo is perfectly legal. No records required indicating how, when or where I came into possession. I just cannot give, sell, loan or barter it away. All those actions are illegal. Correct?

Also, if a CA resident sends away for for such a belt of dummy ammo, that would be a felony. Is that also correct? It seems so illogical if that is true. Get caught in the act of "importing", that's a felony. Be in possession of the imported object, no statute under which you can be charged. Am I missing something?

Sounds about right, unless the linked ammo can't pass the smell test, such you being too young to have reasonably possessed it prior to 2000 or the dummy ammo/links being manufactured after 2000.

Quiet
12-01-2012, 4:30 PM
Sounds about right, unless the linked ammo can't pass the smell test, such you being too young to have reasonably possessed it prior to 2000 or the dummy ammo/links being manufactured after 2000.

Also, if they can determine you acquired it via a non-exempt method that is not illegal (such as finding) or acquired it illegally but after the statue of limitations has expired; then they can not charge you with a crime, but they can legally confiscate the large capacity magazines.

50BMGBOB
12-01-2012, 7:22 PM
I have the same delinking tool. It was a little expensive, but very enjoyable. I still have a couple of cans of linked 50 BMG that needs to be delinked and need to buy an even more expensive M2 delinker. Funny how times change. I thought I was wasting a lot of money buying the linked 50 BMG at the Pomona gun show for about a buck a round. If only my financial investments did as well.

I like my delinking tool too, but it got to expensive. I had to go get one for delinking 22LR to go with the 308 one. I wish I had laid up more. 50BMG back when it was a buck a pop.

Ratboy
12-02-2012, 8:42 AM
In the mid 80's I bought tons (not literally tons) of linked dummy ammo at the flea market in Santa Cruz. I used it to make belts for me and my friends. I still have them somewhere in a box of my teenage years clothing.

I'm happy to hear that I'm ok legally and sadly not surprised that this is now an "issue" and illegal here.

bohoki
12-02-2012, 10:32 AM
it has not been explored completly but since the ammunition is integral to the function

but my opinion is

loading links with say chunks of dowels is different than loading a magazine with dowels

removing the dowels from the magazine leaves you with a magazine

removing the dowels from links leaves you with a pile of links so when linked with anything other than ammo its hard to make the claim that it is an ammunition feed device

George W
12-02-2012, 10:31 PM
Lets start at the begining

A belt of linked dummy ammo is just that a belt of linked dummy rounds.
It's not an ammo feeding device because it contains no ammunition.
If you have 11 dummy rounds linked together and add a live round to either end of it you have a total of one round of ammunition attached to 11 dummy rounds add ten more rounds of live ammo next to the first round of live ammo and you have 11 rounds of ammunition or a High cap feeding device attached to 11 rnds of dummy ammo it doesn't matter which end of the belt you add onto if there are 11 or more rounds of live ammo linked together with no seperation of dummy rounds between them . You just created a hi-cap feeding device after 1/1/2000. I can't understand how this is so complicated.

Linked belts of 11 rnds or more of live ammunition owned and possesed in California before 1/1/2000 are legal in Calif. Once you shoot it below 11 rnds it ceases to exist. You can't pick up the links and reassemble them into anything other then 10 rnd belts or less if you do you just broke the law and created or manufactured a Hi-cap feeding device. Plain and simple. There is no wiggle room thats the law.
You could take said 11 plus rounds of linked live ammo legaly owned before 1/1/2000 in California and add as much ammo as you want onto it before shooting it making sure that it doesn't get shot below 11 rounds and the same existing hi-cap feeding device will still exist. But you better make sure which end of the linked belt you add onto . If it's going in a1919 you had better make sure you add the ammo onto the end with the double loop and if your smart you will paint or tag or somehow identify the original pre ban belt so as not to shoot it smaller then 11 rounds. Once you do it ceases to be. And if you create a new one you are breaking the law.

A cloth belt loaded or unloaded that will hold 11 or more rounds however owned before 1/1/2000 in Calif. is a Hicap feeding device just like a 20 rnd or 30 rnd AR-mag and legal in Calif.
Unless you cut it into pieces it will exist as a hi-cap mag or feeding device by definition loaded or unloaded.

I hope this helps.
GW

bohoki
12-02-2012, 10:59 PM
the whole ldisintegrating link situation is quite confusing

i still cant get this one answered

if you have one 100 round belt and take a round out of the middle now you have 2 a 50 rounder and a 49 rounder which half is the illegally manufactured LCFD

gunsandrockets
12-02-2012, 11:38 PM
the whole ldisintegrating link situation is quite confusing

i still cant get this one answered

if you have one 100 round belt and take a round out of the middle now you have 2 a 50 rounder and a 49 rounder which half is the illegally manufactured LCFD

:rofl2:

Dude! I hadn't thought of that one.

Another example, take one of the cloth 200-round belts and cut it in half. Or quarters! What then?

I bet the DOJ would prosecute.

50BMGBOB
12-03-2012, 1:46 AM
:rofl2:

Dude! I hadn't thought of that one.

Another example, take one of the cloth 200-round belts and cut it in half. Or quarters! What then?

I bet the DOJ would prosecute.

You wouldn't even have to cut one, just shoot it enough to wear it out and it tears.:eek:

George W
12-03-2012, 7:13 AM
the whole ldisintegrating link situation is quite confusing

i still cant get this one answered

if you have one 100 round belt and take a round out of the middle now you have 2 a 50 rounder and a 49 rounder which half is the illegally manufactured LCFD

Since you don't seem to understand it the one with the tagged ,painted, marked , or identified end is the original pre ban belt the other one is a newley made hi-cap.

Don't try to make it more complicated then it is.

Guns and Rockets:
Why on Gods green earth would you want to cut a preban cloth belt in half?

Caribouriver
12-03-2012, 12:54 PM
I think I get it now. Whether your 100 rd belt of M60 is loaded with live ammo, dummy rounds, dowels or just links doesn't matter. If it was acquired preban it's legal and if it's post ban it's illegal. And if it's post ban you could be charged with a felony for importation of a high capacity ammunition feeding device. Is that correct?

bohoki
12-03-2012, 1:40 PM
Since you don't seem to understand it the one with the tagged ,painted, marked , or identified end is the original pre ban belt the other one is a newley made hi-cap.

Don't try to make it more complicated then it is.

Guns and Rockets:
Why on Gods green earth would you want to cut a preban cloth belt in half?


what the heck do you mean painted marked end? which end the front end or the back end

say its already shucked into your m60 and while ramboing it half the belt pops getting snagged on a splintered cow mountain bench
is the end attached to the gun the illegal one or is the one wiggling around on the ground like a lizard tail the bad one

gunsandrockets
12-03-2012, 7:40 PM
Since you don't seem to understand it the one with the tagged ,painted, marked , or identified end is the original pre ban belt the other one is a newley made hi-cap.

Don't try to make it more complicated then it is.

Guns and Rockets:
Why on Gods green earth would you want to cut a preban cloth belt in half?

Do you know what a thought experiment is?

defcon
12-04-2012, 11:14 AM
im using dummy links for my .22LR conversions.

i usually get the range officers and some of the vets to do double takes.

even had a sheriff at my local gun range shoot these. he had a huge grin afterwards. :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8204/8177889195_3ff9cc869d_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8478/8242865977_74bd44a436_c.jpg

Ajaxx
12-04-2012, 3:43 PM
im using dummy links for my .22LR conversions.

i usually get the range officers and some of the vets to do double takes.

even had a sheriff at my local gun range shoot these. he had a huge grin afterwards. :D

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8204/8177889195_3ff9cc869d_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8478/8242865977_74bd44a436_c.jpg

OK, now those are Bad A** looking. Whats the story behind them?

armygunsmith
12-04-2012, 3:56 PM
Wow, those .22 conversions are pretty awesome! I suppose it wouldn't hurt to start a new thread with more details, that way we don't overrun this one.

defcon
12-04-2012, 4:06 PM
i post all my .22 conversions on the rimfire section

2 of them are 10/22. other 2 are Marlin 60's

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=9335831&postcount=21
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=652233
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=641084
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=570525

DRH
12-05-2012, 9:28 AM
what the heck do you mean painted marked end? which end the front end or the back end

say its already shucked into your m60 and while ramboing it half the belt pops getting snagged on a splintered cow mountain bench
is the end attached to the gun the illegal one or is the one wiggling around on the ground like a lizard tail the bad one

With disintegrating links there is a legal grey area on whether you can shoot the whole belt and then rebuild it from the links. To avoid this unresolved issue most pre-ban belt owners don't shoot it down below 11 rounds. I have wrapped duct tape around the pre-ban segments and labeled them. GeorgeW spray painted his ends and tagged them. I have seen others use a dummy round as a stop before the end but I am not a fan of this method. Obviously the end not fed through the gun (trailing) would be the end marked. (on a 1919 this is the single loop end). Cloth belts are a different issue as they never lose the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, with them you just need to get the belt loader and needles set up just right (frustration at it's best).

As for the other question if you have one belt and make it into two, you have manufactured one that did not exist before and I am sure the DOJ would take issue. I am pretty sure GeorgeW uses a ammo box on his M60D so he does not have to worry about snagging a belt and it breaking.

To the original poster, you have a belt of dummy rounds not a high capacity device as it contains no ammunition. If you removed the dummy rounds and reassembled it with live ammo you would be manufacturing a high capacity belt which would be illegal.

GMG
12-08-2012, 8:20 PM
Lets start at the begining

A belt of linked dummy ammo is just that a belt of linked dummy rounds.
It's not an ammo feeding device because it contains no ammunition.
If you have 11 dummy rounds linked together and add a live round to either end of it you have a total of one round of ammunition attached to 11 dummy rounds add ten more rounds of live ammo next to the first round of live ammo and you have 11 rounds of ammunition or a High cap feeding device attached to 11 rnds of dummy ammo it doesn't matter which end of the belt you add onto if there are 11 or more rounds of live ammo linked together with no seperation of dummy rounds between them . You just created a hi-cap feeding device after 1/1/2000. I can't understand how this is so complicated.

Linked belts of 11 rnds or more of live ammunition owned and possesed in California before 1/1/2000 are legal in Calif. Once you shoot it below 11 rnds it ceases to exist. You can't pick up the links and reassemble them into anything other then 10 rnd belts or less if you do you just broke the law and created or manufactured a Hi-cap feeding device. Plain and simple. There is no wiggle room thats the law.
You could take said 11 plus rounds of linked live ammo legaly owned before 1/1/2000 in California and add as much ammo as you want onto it before shooting it making sure that it doesn't get shot below 11 rounds and the same existing hi-cap feeding device will still exist. But you better make sure which end of the linked belt you add onto . If it's going in a1919 you had better make sure you add the ammo onto the end with the double loop and if your smart you will paint or tag or somehow identify the original pre ban belt so as not to shoot it smaller then 11 rounds. Once you do it ceases to be. And if you create a new one you are breaking the law.

A cloth belt loaded or unloaded that will hold 11 or more rounds however owned before 1/1/2000 in Calif. is a Hicap feeding device just like a 20 rnd or 30 rnd AR-mag and legal in Calif.
Unless you cut it into pieces it will exist as a hi-cap mag or feeding device by definition loaded or unloaded.

I hope this helps.
GW

George,

Me thinks your summary is falling on deaf ears !

George W
12-08-2012, 9:53 PM
Agreed.

Decoligny
12-09-2012, 10:31 AM
I think I get it now. Whether your 100 rd belt of M60 is loaded with live ammo, dummy rounds, dowels or just links doesn't matter. If it was acquired preban it's legal and if it's post ban it's illegal. And if it's post ban you could be charged with a felony for importation of a high capacity ammunition feeding device. Is that correct?

Not quite. Simple possession isn't illegal. If you illegally imported the belts on January 2, 2000, you commited a felony in 2000. The ststute of limitations has passed. You cannot be charged. The can however take the belt away under current law as a Hi-cap is considered "a nuisance".

If you illegally imported the belt last week, then you commited a felony last week and if caught will probably werve some time.