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View Full Version : who broke the law in a PPT w/o DROS?


scottj
08-01-2007, 1:43 PM
If someone bought a gun in CA yesterday from a friend without doing the DROS, did both parties commit a crime? I read the relevant law sometime ago and it seemed to me that only the seller was committing a crime. But from recent discussion of this topic its been implied both parties are legally culpable. Is that correct?

Scott

FatKatMatt
08-01-2007, 2:02 PM
If it's a FTF with a rifle over 50 years old (i.e. a C & R) there was no law broken. Handguns and rifles under 50 years old cannot be traded FTF, they must go through a dealer. I would figure both parties are at fault here.

StukaJr
08-01-2007, 2:10 PM
If someone bought a gun in CA yesterday from a friend without doing the DROS, did both parties commit a crime? I read the relevant law sometime ago and it seemed to me that only the seller was committing a crime. But from recent discussion of this topic its been implied both parties are legally culpable. Is that correct?

Scott

Both are still a crime - or people wouldn't be deterred from illegally buying guns from a trunk of a car...

I suggest your "friend" takes your other "friend" to your local FFL and does a proper PPT :chris:

dfletcher
08-01-2007, 2:13 PM
If it's a FTF with a rifle over 50 years old (i.e. a C & R) there was no law broken. Handguns and rifles under 50 years old cannot be traded FTF, they must go through a dealer. I would figure both parties are at fault here.

I'm at work without my books, so maybe I shoudn't take a bit of a guess but I think all handgun sales must go through FFL, even a 50+ or C & R. I wouldn't bet my life - maybe an ex wife's life though. ;)

FatKatMatt
08-01-2007, 2:27 PM
I didn't make it clear in my second sentence, but I meant that handguns and rifles were seperate legal entities, so all handguns have to go through an FFL, but rifles over 50 years old can be FTF transferred.

scottj
08-01-2007, 3:05 PM
Lets say it wasn't a C&R.

Hunter
08-01-2007, 3:16 PM
Lets say it wasn't a C&R.

From this recent situation,

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=64928

it appears the receiver/buyer will be charged with at least illegal firearm possession. The seller will be nailed for selling it in the first place.

With further digging, it looks like all parties involved in the transaction will be cited for violation of PC 12072 which states:

12072(d) Where neither party to the transaction holds a dealer's license issued pursuant to Section 12071, the parties to the transaction shall complete the sale, loan, or transfer of that
firearm through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

Then if the weapon was a hangun, there can be further charges applied, such as failure to report ownership of it and maybe more.

-hanko
08-01-2007, 5:08 PM
If someone bought a gun in CA yesterday from a friend without doing the DROS, did both parties commit a crime? I read the relevant law sometime ago and it seemed to me that only the seller was committing a crime. But from recent discussion of this topic its been implied both parties are legally culpable. Is that correct?

Scott
What kind of gun did you get??:D

-hanko

metalhead357
08-02-2007, 7:24 AM
I'm at work without my books, so maybe I shoudn't take a bit of a guess but I think all handgun sales must go through FFL, even a 50+ or C & R. I wouldn't bet my life - maybe an ex wife's life though. ;)


Per #14 on the DOJ public-asked FAQ's
I want to sell a gun to another person, i.e., a private party transfer. Am I required to conduct the transaction through a licensed California firearms dealer?
Yes. Firearm sales must be conducted through a fully licensed California firearms dealer. Failure to do so is a violation of California law. The buyer (and seller, in the event that the; buyer is denied), must meet the normal firearm purchase and delivery requirements. "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement.

Firearms dealers are required to process private party transfers upon request. Firearms dealers may charge a fee not to exceed $10 per firearm for conducting a private party transfer. Example:
For a private party transfer involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00 for the first handgun and $31.00 for each additional handgun involved in the same transaction.
For private party transfers involving one or more long guns, or a private party transfer involving one handgun, the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00. The dealer may charge an additional dealer-service fee of$10.00 per each additional firearm transferred.(PC section 12072(d))


But yep,I'd venture a guess BOTH parties could/would be charged with something.

tgriffin
08-02-2007, 7:46 AM
Isnt this what billionare boy Harry is dealing with right now? IINM, the situation as described takes this beyond state law to federal.

Bill_in_SD
08-02-2007, 11:09 AM
Inter state transfers are a federal issue. ie BATFE gets involved. The billionaire's son is up on federal charges related to a transfer without an FFL for guns from AZ. (from what I have read, details are sketchy)

Not possession as some have speculated on various news sources, they are highlighting the AK47s in the case, but he is also on the hook for some handguns as well.

Bill in SD

emc002
08-02-2007, 11:32 AM
I inherited 3 guns from my grandpa many years ago (1986 or so) and have been thinking about trading them (I don't have time/dies/etc. to create rounds for these).
They are an:
1881 Vetterli M78 Rifle
1893 Iver Johnson .38 Revolver
1941 Type 99 Japanese Rifle

Given DOJ #14 FAQ answer "Antique firearms," as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code, and curio or relic rifles/shotguns, defined in Section 178.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations that are over 50 years old, are exempt from this requirement."
My question is, can I trade these for another rifle over 50 years old? (I've been looking for an older lever action in .45-70 or .308)
I'd probably do so at a gun show (CA or NV), so I'm leary of ATF entrapment issues and want to make sure I do everything above board, but with the least amount (none if possible) of Big Brother paperwork.
Thanks in advance.

stator
08-02-2007, 3:39 PM
EMC - get yourself a CCR FFL license and have no worries regarding interstate purchase of 50yr old firearms.