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View Full Version : Need some help: OLL Range Flyer Project


carsonwales
07-31-2007, 9:00 PM
We are the ambassadors...the modern day Paul Revere's....and we have an obligation and duty we cannot ignore....

I took an OLL build out to the range this last weekend and popped its cherry. Super slick SPR build utilizing a Prince 50...and boy did I get some attention...in a good way.

The range was packed with guys sighting in deer rifles for the coming season. Must have been 50 folks there. Several were admiring my most recent build and were dumbfounded as to how one can have such a killer rig today/now in California.

The level of knowledge concerning AR style variants as it regards to what is legal astounded me. Some of the folks thought ALL AR's had been totally banned in California! Being the owner of a couple of registered AR variants I was astounded at this level of ignorance...though given the massive disinformation propagated by the media and DOJ/BOF its not that surprising.

To further the point, last night I was at Borders buying an AR book and thumbing through some AR/Tactical mags...when a fellow in the aisle said "too bad you can't own those in California". I politely explained that there were tens of thousands of legally purchased AR's that were indeed quite legal to own/posses and use. I went further and dabbled a bit in the OLL issues and explained Type 1,2 and 3 AW's and how OLL's with mag locks are not subject to AW classification....and further still, two of my local shops are still sitting on the fence...playing a wait and see game. Thats unacceptable....we need to push them on to our side...and here is how we are gonna do it....

Its time to fight back outside of these forums.

We are the tip of the spear; it is our duty to educate, inform and turn back the muddy water that the 'general' gun public is swimming in.

I need your help.

I want to put together a very slick comprehensive PDF file that all of us can print and take to ranges and gun-shops with us. It needs to be easy to read and understand. It should have various memos and letters from the DOJ/BOF supporting our current position. It should have clear descriptions/illustrations of the mag locks available. It should have a comprehensive list of OLL friendly FLL's. It should have a list of OLL vendors who are doing business with Californians. It should contain a comprehensive list of Off List Lowers...

Of course we need Gene and Bill to right the cover sheets....

Help me with the order of the layout and outline. Help me with gathering info by posting links to files that can be rolled into it. Lets make this a collaborative effort. What should it look it?

I will put the package together and also contribute as well. I need help in defining the skeleton and the gathering of meat to put on its bones.

We can work on this over time...and versions can be discussed and tweaked.

When we are done...though it will never be truly done because of the dynamic nature of things...we can have our current project version here on Calguns that anyone of us can download, print and disseminate.

I am sick and tired of this nonsense I want to fight back on a grass roots level.

Help me fight back...lets help ourselves!

CW

69Mach1
07-31-2007, 9:12 PM
Here's one that Gramaton76 put out:
http://www.cheapspeech.com/ar-flier.pdf

Maybe you could expand on it.

carsonwales
07-31-2007, 9:22 PM
Excellent start...but we need more.

We need a list a mile long of friendly FLL's...and we need a Gene/Bill style cover text...

I see a 20 page document when its done...all inclusive and comprehensive. Hundreds of listed FLL's....dozens and dozens of off list lowers...prince 50 and bullet button info...snippets of the law and other legal docs....a brief bit on Harrot...and of course that page or two from Gene/Bill to start things off....

We need a full blown Madison Avenue style piece of work....

By the way....this one page flier should be a sticky for now...and we should all be carrying several copies when we go to the ranges....

CW

Here's one that Gramaton76 put out:
http://www.cheapspeech.com/ar-flier.pdf
(Copy and paste)
Maybe you could expand on it.

tiki
07-31-2007, 9:34 PM
Excellent start...but we need more.

We need a list a mile long of friendly FLL's...and we need a Gene/Bill style cover text...

I see a 20 page document when its done...all inclusive and comprehensive. Hundreds of listed FLL's....dozens and dozens of off list lowers...prince 50 and bullet button info...snippets of the law and other legal docs....a brief bit on Harrot...and of course that page or two from Gene/Bill to start things off....

We need a full blown Madison Avenue style piece of work....

By the way....this one page flier should be a sticky for now...and we should all be carrying several copies when we go to the ranges....

CW
I think you mean FFL. :)

hoffmang
07-31-2007, 10:35 PM
The short term plan (that we're waiting on some of Bill's day job on) is to re-write the Assault Weapons Identification Guide to update it and make it accurate.

-Gene

oaklander
07-31-2007, 10:39 PM
Let me know how I can help!!!

:D

CCWFacts
07-31-2007, 11:16 PM
You really need two things: a short flyer that someone can understand quickly (within two minutes) which conveys the basic points:

AR-15 type rifles are covered under strict laws in this state, but it is possible to build them in ways which are fully functional and legal. While the laws, court cases, letters and rulings are complicated, the guidelines for building a typical CA-legal are simple enough that anyone can do it. Come to this website to learn more.

You could put in a little more info, and some graphics, and there's your flyer.

To convey the full details you need a mini-booklet which could be taken from the various FAQs. You want this booklet in two sections: a quick-start guide, similar to what most software projects have these days; and the detailed legal background for those who want to learn the full intricacies.

The quick-start should be a clear instruction manual for how to build a CA-legal AR. The basic points are, you need either a MM-type stock, or you need a tool mag release. Pick one of those options, be aware of other stuff (no flash hiders etc), and you're good to go.

The full details could explain the structure of the law, the court cases, the letters and the rulings. That's way way more detail than 95% of people need to know. People really just need to know that a) you can own an AR in CA (that's the point of the flyer) and b) here's how you configure it (the point of the quick-start).

That's how I would organize this. Keep the flyer simple! If you had to express the flyer in one sentence, it would be, "You can legally own an AR-15 type gun in California if you use the correct configuration; we will show you how." If that's the only idea you get across with a flyer, you have succeeded!

grammaton76
07-31-2007, 11:26 PM
*grin* Or, you could just do what the current flier does - provide a link to Calguns, where we've got all that info.

First off, though, credit where credit's due - Soopafly did the graphics and layout for both the original version of the flier, and the current one.

Now, I originally toyed with the thought of putting a lot more text into the one page, but quickly discovered that you need to pull folks in with a flash page, then get 'em to read the actual information.

I certainly don't mind the thought of more folks doing more evangelism - however, the only thing I could see as an enhancement would be if you guys did a quick-startup guide, and the existing flier were updated to include a link to it.

Thegunwiki, for instance, would provide readily accessible hosting - it already has the AR/AK FAQ and history of the off-list lower on it. A page on it is also easily updated.

On a side note, as for an open list of FFL's... that's somewhat of a dicey issue. When you create a central list like that, the DOJ starts hassling them more - or at least, that's their perception. I've secured permission from a few FFLs to list them on TGW's FFL list. I've spoken to many others who are VERY openly talked about on here, and they didn't want to be on a list. Your project will have to keep that in mind, since you don't want to anger folks by listing them when they don't want to be.

By the way, on a similar note - while I applaud your enthusiasm, presenting a gun shop owner with "this is a printout here from the Internet" is not going to win them over. The off-list thing has been going on long enough that pretty much all the FFLs are aware of it, and have formed opinions by now. The only thing that's going to change them at this point, is time and seeing that other FFLs aren't being closed down for it. As I'm sure you've discovered, gun shop owners tend to believe they know everything, and it IS indisputable that off-list FFLs get harrassed far more in audits than non-off-list FFL's. A lot of them simply aren't willing to put up with it. They MAY listen to other FFLs, or to a customer they personally know and trust (but this is VERY unlikely), but a guy off the street with a pamphlet simply isn't going to convince them - they're unlikely to even bother reading it.

xenophobe
08-01-2007, 12:56 AM
Let me know how I can help!!!

:D

+1

Maybe next time in chat we can talk about splitting up the contents to get something comprehensive like this done...

Bizcuits
08-01-2007, 4:42 AM
[B]and further still, two of my local shops are still sitting on the fence...playing a wait and see game.

I'm sitting on the fence with them, I'd love to grab up an OLL Ar build. Sadly, even have a few old 30rds sitting around for a MMG build. With the cases of arrests I hear about, I'm still alittle nervous and perfer to avoid any possible trouble. So here I sit on my fence with my mini14 waiting to get a more solid view of the picture.

Although on the note of fliers and booklets, I've actually wondered the same. I'd be willing to pass some around.

Fate
08-01-2007, 8:11 AM
I'm sitting on the fence with them, I'd love to grab up an OLL Ar build. Sadly, even have a few old 30rds sitting around for a MMG build. With the cases of arrests I hear about, I'm still alittle nervous and perfer to avoid any possible trouble. So here I sit on my fence with my mini14 waiting to get a more solid view of the picture.

A build using the MonsterMan grip with no "evil" features is one of the safest routes to take. Cast aside your mental chains, brother!

MudCamper
08-01-2007, 9:47 AM
I made this flyer:

http://www.paul.net/guns/CaliforniaRifles.pdf

It's short and sweet.

I also carry a copy of bweise's copmemo (http://www.calguns.net/copmemo2.pdf) with me if more detail is needed.

pnkssbtz
08-01-2007, 11:36 AM
Also, I've offered in the past, but I work for a printing company and can print up 1000 to 2,500 flyers if we need too.

spencerhut
08-01-2007, 12:21 PM
I've printed up and subsequently passed out 50 fliers to members of my gun club. Most of them are a tad bit confused about the whole thing. Weren't we all at some point? A little patience goes a long way in these discussions.

CRTguns
08-02-2007, 9:47 PM
The madison society has already told me it would be in our best interest to create something like this- they will help with printing costs and logistics. We'd need to do this on the cheap too- find a gun friendly print shop. Mailing can get spendy. We'd have to be like those door to door bible salesmen. We'd need to carry this flyer everywhere and take advantage of ther opportunity to educate everyone we come in contact with- all those undecided or uninformed members of the public BEFORE the news media gets to them. making OLLs seem like a normal part of the legal gun pffering should be the goal so that it seems extreme to exercise legal action against their owners.

CRTguns
08-02-2007, 9:49 PM
The OLL cult out looking for new members...
lol
"Join us! All your firearm dreams will come true!"

Glock22Fan
08-03-2007, 12:50 PM
I could get hold of, out of state, one of the banned rifles (my source thinks it might be an SKS (?) but he can't remember very well).

Is it feasible to pick up and strip this rifle (still out of state, of course), bring the legal parts into California and rebuild it with an acceptable lower (and whatever else it needs). Or wouldn't this work, or would this not save enough money to make it worth doing? My source cannot be bothered to try selling the rifle, or anything like that - it has been collecting dust for years.

Sorry if this question sounds as if I'm ignorant in this area. This is probably because it is true.

Thanks for anyone with the patience to enlighten me.

carsonwales
08-03-2007, 4:33 PM
I am dedicating 4-6 hours of my Sunday in compiling things together and putting together a very rough draft.

I may be handing out some homework assignments next week....

Cheers....