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View Full Version : a personal Roster work-around....but is it worth it??


IrishPirate
11-24-2012, 10:49 AM
My mother-in-law lives in NV and is NOT a prohibited person. Would it be worth it to have her buy the off-roster guns I want, then gift them to my wife (going through a CA FFL of course...wife is also not prohibited, just needs her HSC), and then have my wife give them to me?? and yes, I'm aware this must be an "infrequent transaction".

I looked through the intrafamily transfer info on the CGF Wiki page and the parent-to-child, and spouse-to-spouse thing seems in order, but the section about the brother-to-brother had some wording that got me worried too.

(4)No person, corporation, or dealer shall sell, loan, or transfer
a firearm to any person whom he or she knows or has cause to
believe is not the actual purchaser or transferee of the firearm,
or to any person who is not the person actually being loaned the
firearm, if the person, corporation, or dealer has either of the
following:

(A)Knowledge that the firearm is to be subsequently loaned, sold,
or transferred to avoid the provisions of subdivision (c) or (d).

(B)Knowledge that the firearm is to be subsequently loaned, sold,
or transferred to avoid the requirements of any exemption to the
provisions of subdivision (c) or (d).


I know this isn't a brother-to-brother transaction, and I know (d) just says you have to go through an FFL, but what about (c)? I'm not exactly sure which paragraph of which section of PC it's refering to.

Also, what fees would be associated with this type of transfer should it actually be legal as described? I'm assuming we'd pay the full FFL transfer fee, being at least $35 but probably more since it would be mailed from NV (also not sure the best way to accomplish this either), and then after my wife's 10day wait I think the DOJ vol-reg $19 form would be all that's required to put it in my name right?

Not sure what the general price difference is on guns in NV vs CA, but assuming best case scenario of $25(in-law DROS) + $50(mail) + $35(transfer) + $19(vol-reg) = $129 it seems like it might be worth it to get something that just isn't available here in CA.

what do you think....worth it? or way off base? SSE might not be a viable solution for every gun....

Intimid8tor
11-24-2012, 10:53 AM
Some will argue that her purchase would be a straw purchase. That's debatable and I am not going to go there.

I think you might have an issue with a non rostered handgun being brought into CA even on an intra-familiar transfer. I could be wrong though.

buster1960
11-24-2012, 10:55 AM
Your idea will work. It worked for me.

ps. brother to brother is not legal. They are not direct lineal. (BS I know!!!)

ICONIC
11-24-2012, 11:01 AM
If I am not mistaken, the intra-familial transfer option has to have both parties living within the same state. I could be wrong, I am sure there is someone will be along who knows more on this subject.

Honestly, if there is something you want, I would look into SSE (single shot exemption).

buster1960
11-24-2012, 11:04 AM
SSE is the best way but intra-familial is legal out of state.

Canucky
11-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Irish what you looking at (firearm)

corcoraj2002
11-24-2012, 11:21 AM
Out of state intra-familial is legal for on roster weapons as it still has to be shipped to a FFL. If its off roster you both have to be CA residents.

FUD by me see below.

SMR510
11-24-2012, 11:42 AM
You can get non rostered handguns gifted from family out of state as long as the family members are vertical on your family tree. What you are proposing would work but you would have to do the math on both the intrafamiliar and SSE to see what would be the most cost effective.

From what I have seen SSE generally costs $50 + $50 for the transfer and $25 for the DROS. Find the cheapest price online (at a retailer that is willing to ship it here) and add $125 on top of the shipped price, I bet that comes out cheaper than 3 separate transfers (the mom, your wife, then on to you).

keenkeen
11-24-2012, 11:55 AM
Out of state intra-familial is legal for on roster weapons as it still has to be shipped to a FFL. If its off roster you both have to be CA residents.

I don't think so...

Do you have a link to this info?

corcoraj2002
11-24-2012, 12:07 PM
I was wrong, see here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members).

Librarian
11-24-2012, 12:08 PM
IrishPirate had it correct in his first post. He read the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members - so should all the rest of you posting here.

He suggests using the intrafamily transfer exemption to the Roster to transfer an off-Roster handgun to his wife from her mother; this would be a gift.

Because the transfer is NV --> CA, he correctly recognizes the transfer must go through a CA FFL; the Roster exemption still applies.

After the 10 day wait (and other FFL things), his wife would pick up the handgun.

Then, having taken possession of the gun, IP files an OPLAW form for a second transfer, wife to husband.

His concern is the bit of Penal Code that makes it a crime for the mother-in-law to transfer the gun to her daughter, knowing the subsequent transfer to IP will occur, the whole transfer sequence being (or being seen as) an effort to avoid the strictures of the Roster as applied to IP if he were to transfer through a dealer.

In other words, IP is asking his Nevada-residing mother-in-law if she wants to become a California criminal.

There are issues of detection, enforcement against an out of state resident, and willingness of any agency to investigate and/or prosecute, but that's the summary.

Oceanbob
11-24-2012, 12:30 PM
Your idea will work. It worked for me.

ps. brother to brother is not legal. They are not direct lineal. (BS I know!!!)


Me Too..^^^^

My adult daughter lives in Oklahoma and 'Gifts' dear old Dad off roster handguns all the time...:D

IrishPirate won't have any problems at all.

Just to be CLEAR....and pay attention to this fact:

The Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction Form doesn't even ask for the name or address of the person doing the GIFTING.

Sure, they want the $19 bucks; and they want the handgun registered. That's about it.

Read this:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf

Notice they ask:

Date Acquired: xx-xx-xxxx

How Possession was obtained: Your answer is GIFT

Acquired From: Check box that says x FAMILY MEMBER (specify relationship) Wife

No other questions are asked; send in the $19 and you're good to go.

jackofall
11-24-2012, 1:17 PM
Why even transfer from wife to you.... Avoid the $19 fee.

Unless you're worried about divorce.?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

Capybara
11-24-2012, 5:35 PM
Good grief, people really involve entire lineages of family in multiple states to avoid SSE? Between the phone calls, driving, shipping paperwork and hassle, possible legal violations, I think your nuts to even consider it.

strongpoint
11-24-2012, 6:39 PM
Some will argue that her purchase would be a straw purchase. That's debatable and I am not going to go there.

it's not a straw purchase if it's a legitimate gift, as OP stated. it's only an issue if there's compensation being exchanged for the firearm in question.

tbhracing
11-24-2012, 6:45 PM
Abolish the roster!

BANG BANG
11-24-2012, 7:32 PM
So the firearm must be shipped to a CA FFL ??

What if mom/dad decides to take a road trip into CA with the firearm, then decides to gift it to son/daughter ??

strongpoint
11-24-2012, 8:22 PM
So the firearm must be shipped to a CA FFL ??

What if mom/dad decides to take a road trip into CA with the firearm, then decides to gift it to son/daughter ??

per federal law, it has to go through an FFL either way because the parents reside in another state. but i don't know whether he parents can bring the firearm to the state with them and just walk into an FFL with it. the wiki doesn't address this case -- librarian? anyone?

Librarian
11-24-2012, 8:30 PM
per federal law, it has to go through an FFL either way because the parents reside in another state. but i don't know whether he parents can bring the firearm to the state with them and just walk into an FFL with it. the wiki doesn't address this case -- librarian? anyone?

Sure they can - the law is entirely silent about that. Some FFLs have business practices that make them leery about interstate transfers that do not come directly from an out of state FFL.

But the important issue is that the CA resident may not take possession except from the CA FFL, after all the FFL-things are accomplished.

hundreddollarman
11-24-2012, 8:41 PM
Good grief, people really involve entire lineages of family in multiple states to avoid SSE? Between the phone calls, driving, shipping paperwork and hassle, possible legal violations, I think your nuts to even consider it.

Either through SSE or this chain of transfers it's still the same - a laborious set of hoops to jump through to get a firearm we want, just because we don't live in a free state.

Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain the appeal of SSE-ing a firearm to me? What's the point of having a pistol if you can only fire one shot at a time? It's almost useless for anything other than show 'n' tell.

dwtt
11-24-2012, 8:46 PM
Abolish the roster!

I agree, though it won't help irishpete at all.

BANG BANG
11-24-2012, 8:48 PM
Sure they can - the law is entirely silent about that. Some FFLs have business practices that make them leery about interstate transfers that do not come directly from an out of state FFL.

But the important issue is that the CA resident may not take possession except from the CA FFL, after all the FFL-things are accomplished.

ah understood, good to know !!



Pardon my ignorance, but can someone explain the appeal of SSE-ing a firearm to me? What's the point of having a pistol if you can only fire one shot at a time? It's almost useless for anything other than show 'n' tell.

SSE is just used for the DROS period, the firearm does not need to stay that way after.

buster1960
11-24-2012, 8:50 PM
Once you take possession of the gun you can put it back to its factory configuration up to 10 rounds.

hundreddollarman
11-24-2012, 11:14 PM
SSE is just used for the DROS period, the firearm does not need to stay that way after.

Once you take possession of the gun you can put it back to its factory configuration up to 10 rounds.

So after the 30-day DROS period expires, I can go to a gunsmith and have them undo the SSE? Are there any permanent changes for SSE-ing a handgun?

Thanks for answering my questions. It's tough keeping track of all this stuff, but I'm giving it my best shot.

strongpoint
11-24-2012, 11:26 PM
So after the 30-day DROS period expires, I can go to a gunsmith and have them undo the SSE? Are there any permanent changes for SSE-ing a handgun?

Thanks for answering my questions. It's tough keeping track of all this stuff, but I'm giving it my best shot.

if you think the DROS period is 30 days, you really ARE having trouble.

that's a joke. as soon as you take possession of the gun, you can do what you want with (to?) it. you can turn around and walk right back into the store you just walked out of and ask their gunsmith to do the work.

the work needed to SSE any particular gun may vary, but permanence would generally negate the point.

BANG BANG
11-24-2012, 11:36 PM
So after the 30-day DROS period expires, I can go to a gunsmith and have them undo the SSE? Are there any permanent changes for SSE-ing a handgun?

Thanks for answering my questions. It's tough keeping track of all this stuff, but I'm giving it my best shot.

if you think the DROS period is 30 days, you really ARE having trouble.

that's a joke. as soon as you take possession of the gun, you can do what you want with (to?) it. you can turn around and walk right back into the store you just walked out of and ask their gunsmith to do the work.

the work needed to SSE any particular gun may vary, but permanence would generally negate the point.

lolz no you're probably confusing the 1 in 30 period (1 new handgun in 30 days)

read the sticky !!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692

markw
11-25-2012, 1:04 AM
Once you take possession of the gun you can put it back to its factory configuration up to 10 rounds.

Not restricted to 10 rounds if you already own "hicap" magazines for it.

Quiet
11-25-2012, 7:43 AM
Once you take possession of the gun you can put it back to its factory configuration up to 10 rounds.

As long as it complies with CA's assault weapons and short barrel rifle/shotgun laws.

Not restricted to 10 rounds if you already own "hicap" magazines for it.

As long as the semi-auto pistol does not operate using a maglock to create a fixed magazine.

hundreddollarman
11-25-2012, 10:36 AM
lolz no you're probably confusing the 1 in 30 period (1 new handgun in 30 days)

Ha. Yes, yes I did. I don't know how I made that mistake. Thanks for correcting me.

ke6guj
11-25-2012, 11:51 AM
Me Too..^^^^

My adult daughter lives in Oklahoma and 'Gifts' dear old Dad off roster handguns all the time...:D

IrishPirate won't have any problems at all.

Just to be CLEAR....and pay attention to this fact:

The Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction Form doesn't even ask for the name or address of the person doing the GIFTING.

Sure, they want the $19 bucks; and they want the handgun registered. That's about it.

Read this:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf

Notice they ask:

Date Acquired: xx-xx-xxxx

How Possession was obtained: Your answer is GIFT

Acquired From: Check box that says x FAMILY MEMBER (specify relationship) Wife

No other questions are asked; send in the $19 and you're good to go.
do note that the the oplaw form is unneeded in your scenario and could be used as proof of admission of a federal felony if you did not use a CA FFL to facilitate the intrafamily transfer.

It is two federal felonies to transfer a firearm from an OK resident to a CA resident without using a CA FFL to make the transfer. There is no federal intrafamily exemption to those laws. the state oplaw form would cover CA law but it is still illegal federally.

And if you use that CA FFL to facilitate the transfer, CADOJ already knows about the transfer so there is no need to file an oplaw form and waste an additional $19.

pc_load_letter
11-25-2012, 12:01 PM
Good grief, people really involve entire lineages of family in multiple states to avoid SSE? Between the phone calls, driving, shipping paperwork and hassle, possible legal violations, I think your nuts to even consider it.

With all due respect, the SSE workaround is not the panacea many make it out to be. Plenty of firearms out there that I'd love to own but the shops that perform the SSE do only a small market of arms and even for off brands, many times barrels cannot be located to perform the work.

For instance, I want a SAR ST10- Sarsilmaz, a Turkish gun. No aftermarket barrels for SSE. The OP's post would be great for me. Sadly mother is passed away.

Oceanbob
11-25-2012, 12:10 PM
After the 10 day wait (and other FFL things), his wife would pick up the handgun.

Then, having taken possession of the gun, IP files an OPLAW form for a second transfer, wife to husband.

There are issues of detection.

do note that the the oplaw form is unneeded in your scenario and could be used as proof of admission of a federal felony if you did not use a CA FFL to facilitate the intrafamily transfer.

It is two federal felonies to transfer a firearm from an OK resident to a CA resident without using a CA FFL to make the transfer. There is no federal intrafamily exemption to those laws. the state oplaw form would cover CA law but it is still illegal federally.

We know that^^^and the OP isn't going to do that

And if you use that CA FFL to facilitate the transfer, CADOJ already knows about the transfer so there is no need to file an oplaw form and waste an additional $19.

Yes, the transfer to the WIFE. I was addressing the wife to husband (OP) transfer.^^^

I have no scenario. I will just pointing out that the CDOJ doesn't give a rat's a/ss about original ownership of handguns as long as the OP pays his $19 bucks and gets the weapon registered with the State.

As Librarian pointed out, issues of detection are to be considered. However I suggest that detection is a MOOT POINT considering the CDOJ doesn't ask for the name or address of the person making the GIFT or supplying the weapon being transfered. Since the CDOJ has no information on the name, address or anything else concerning the gifting owner, they don't plan on checking anybody. They want the handgun registered to a person with a HSC card and $19 for their time. :cool2:

This transaction will fall into the daily pile of 4,279 transactions the CDOJ did last Tuesday. (guessing)

ke6guj
11-25-2012, 12:18 PM
Yes, the transfer to the WIFE. I was addressing the wife to husband (OP) transfer.^^^ok, missed the "wife to husband" portion of your post, but you seemed to be pushing the fact that the address of the transferor is not listed on the form so it seemed like you were saying that you could do a direct OK>CA intrafamily transfer with that form since they don't ask for the address.

Oceanbob
11-25-2012, 12:20 PM
ok, missed the "wife to husband" portion of your post, but you seemed to be pushing the fact that the address of the transferor is not listed on the form so it seemed like you were saying that you could do a direct OK>CA intrafamily transfer with that form since they don't ask for the address.

No problem Jack...:D

In addition, the Law will be followed.

Have a good Sunday. :cool2:

AAShooter
11-25-2012, 12:22 PM
If it was my mother, I would not ask her to do that . . . now a mother-in-law . . . hmmm.

IrishPirate
11-27-2012, 8:12 PM
Me Too..^^^^

My adult daughter lives in Oklahoma and 'Gifts' dear old Dad off roster handguns all the time...:D

IrishPirate won't have any problems at all.

Just to be CLEAR....and pay attention to this fact:

The Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction Form doesn't even ask for the name or address of the person doing the GIFTING.

Sure, they want the $19 bucks; and they want the handgun registered. That's about it.

Read this:

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/firearms/forms/oplaw.pdf

Notice they ask:

Date Acquired: xx-xx-xxxx

How Possession was obtained: Your answer is GIFT

Acquired From: Check box that says x FAMILY MEMBER (specify relationship) Wife

No other questions are asked; send in the $19 and you're good to go.

good to know, makes me feel better about it.


Good grief, people really involve entire lineages of family in multiple states to avoid SSE? Between the phone calls, driving, shipping paperwork and hassle, possible legal violations, I think your nuts to even consider it.


yes, i know SSE might be less of a hassle, and perhaps less expensive...but not all the time. It's not like every gun under the sun can be SSE'd, and here in the great PRK most gun shops dont stock off roster guns in the hopes that LEO's or SSE interested parties will stop by to purchase them. It usually means having to order the gun, wait for it to get there, have the SSE work done to it, DROS, then have the work undone. If time or availability is a concern it's much easier to have out of state family run to a store, buy the gun, mail it out 10 minutes later to a CA FFL (who knows it's en route), DROS, OPLAW, and send them a check for the cost.

and that's where i was concerned (as Librarian pointed out). It seems like me paying them would negate the "gift" part of the PC. Not sure how anyone would ever know about it, but if the cold hard fact was that I would be breaking the law, I'm not really interested in commiting a felony and involving my family in the act.

Just nice to know that if i were visiting and saw something I wanted, I could (possibly) make it happen. It's entirely possibly that a KelTec PMR30 might find its way to my safe through this chain of events :43:

mugiwara
11-27-2012, 8:16 PM
if the mother in law wants the gun, buys it, then decides to give it to her daughter, whats the harm in that?
the real problem is that this thread needed to be made in the first place. get with it, california...

caldude
11-27-2012, 9:49 PM
Why even transfer from wife to you.... Avoid the $19 fee.

Unless you're worried about divorce.?

Exactly what I was thinking. California is a community property state - what's her's is your's (and vice versa). There's no real need to transfer to your name. My wife and I shoot each other's guns all of the time. As long as you're still living together, it doesn't really matter who "owns" the gun.

Librarian
11-27-2012, 9:59 PM
Exactly what I was thinking. California is a community property state - what's her's is your's (and vice versa). There's no real need to transfer to your name. My wife and I shoot each other's guns all of the time. As long as you're still living together, it doesn't really matter who "owns" the gun.

CA gun law doesn't really have the concept of guns having more than one owner - the intersection between community property law and penal code is not well defined.

Saym14
11-28-2012, 7:45 AM
IrishPirate had it correct in his first post. He read the wiki -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members - so should all the rest of you posting here.

He suggests using the intrafamily transfer exemption to the Roster to transfer an off-Roster handgun to his wife from her mother; this would be a gift.

Because the transfer is NV --> CA, he correctly recognizes the transfer must go through a CA FFL; the Roster exemption still applies.

After the 10 day wait (and other FFL things), his wife would pick up the handgun.

Then, having taken possession of the gun, IP files an OPLAW form for a second transfer, wife to husband.

His concern is the bit of Penal Code that makes it a crime for the mother-in-law to transfer the gun to her daughter, knowing the subsequent transfer to IP will occur, the whole transfer sequence being (or being seen as) an effort to avoid the strictures of the Roster as applied to IP if he were to transfer through a dealer.

In other words, IP is asking his Nevada-residing mother-in-law if she wants to become a California criminal.

There are issues of detection, enforcement against an out of state resident, and willingness of any agency to investigate and/or prosecute, but that's the summary.

if mother in law inteds the gift to be common property to the two married adults, one of whcih is her daughther, isnt this legal ?

also if duaghter wants to keep the gift ( gun), then why cant husbmand/ son in law borrow it any time he wants since its common property . ?

Librarian
11-28-2012, 11:10 AM
(1) if mother in law inteds the gift to be common property to the two married adults, one of whcih is her daughther, isnt this legal ?

(2) also if duaghter wants to keep the gift ( gun), then why cant husbmand/ son in law borrow it any time he wants since its common property . ?

(1) as the post immediately above yours notes, CA doesn't 'get' gun ownership by more than one individual. The intrafamilial transfer exception would apply only to mother-daughter, not mother-in-law to son-in-law.

(2) A gift from someone is SEPARATE property; details of CA community property law are outside the scope of this thread, and not something I have studied carefully, so I won't say more.

However, no reason at all a husband could not borrow his wife's gun, presuming all the other circumstances are legal.

Dubels
11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
Exactly what I was thinking. California is a community property state - what's her's is your's (and vice versa). There's no real need to transfer to your name. My wife and I shoot each other's guns all of the time. As long as you're still living together, it doesn't really matter who "owns" the gun.

No true with family gifts, they remain separate property unless expressly given to the community. *Librarian beat me to it.

But you can get around community property if you really want to avoid the $19 fee.

markw
11-28-2012, 12:57 PM
Good grief, people really involve entire lineages of family in multiple states to avoid SSE? Between the phone calls, driving, shipping paperwork and hassle, possible legal violations, I think your nuts to even consider it.

It's actually pretty simple. Dad, this is a cool pistol. Some time later, call from dad, "I shipped a gift to your ffl, enjoy". You go to your ffl and do the same paperwork you would if you'd bought a rostered pistol. Done.

Mark