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View Full Version : Is a red dot site cheating?


GunHo
11-21-2012, 7:53 AM
Hello calgunners. I'm looking for opinions and pointers if any. I am considering getting a red dot site on my browning buckmark. My buddy has one on his buckmark and my accuracy was amazing. It was so easy to hit my target that it felt like cheating. Just when I thought I had all the accessories on my guns, something else always seems to catch my eye. I have to admit, it was fun and gratifying to hit 3 inch targets at 25 yards. But again, it is skill or is it cheating?

Kappy
11-21-2012, 7:59 AM
It depends upon what your purpose is. Red dots don't really require any pointers, as far as I'm concerned... they do what they do. Put the dot on the target and, if they're setup properly, you hit the target. The only thing I can think of is to practice with it so that you can snap the pistol up into position and not have to search.

Now... is it cheating? Nah. If your goal isn't to learn proper sight picture, it's fine. I used one for a bit, but quickly dropped it. It added too much weight to my pistol for pistol league.

shooting4life
11-21-2012, 8:07 AM
I have a vortex red dot on my Buckmark. It is a fun little set up

Black Majik
11-21-2012, 8:14 AM
Hello calgunners. I'm looking for opinions and pointers if any. I am considering getting a red dot site on my browning buckmark. My buddy has one on his buckmark my accuracy was amazing. It was so good, it feels like cheating. Your thoughts?

If your goal is to mainly plink at steel plates quickly, the red dot will be very beneficial since you don't have to worry much about sight alignment. Since you'll be on target quicker, you'll have to still maintain your trigger fundamentals as you may just want to snap the trigger once the dot reaches the target instead of being smooth with the trigger pull.

I don't find red dots to be particularly precise on paper, but for multiple targets it's a significant advantage over iron sights. Give it a try, if you don't like it you can always take it off of the rail and remount it when you feel like using it.

CSACANNONEER
11-21-2012, 8:23 AM
Red dots are ok for speed but severely limit the precision capability of the gun. Depending on type of shooting you are doing, they can either be helpful, a crutch or detramental.

IVC
11-21-2012, 8:49 AM
Not cheating. Acquiring sight picture is only one, relatively small part of accuracy. You still have to work the trigger, which includes holding the gun properly, breathing properly, following through, etc.

vintagearms
11-21-2012, 9:16 AM
Hello calgunners. I'm looking for opinions and pointers if any. I am considering getting a red dot site on my browning buckmark. My buddy has one on his buckmark and my accuracy was amazing. It was so easy to hit my target that it felt like cheating. Just when I thought I had all the accessories on my guns, something else always seems to catch my eye. I have to admit, it was fun and gratifying to hit 3 inch targets at 25 yards. But again, it is skill or is it cheating?

Want to have more fun? Take that target out to 50-75 yards.

RileyBean
11-21-2012, 9:29 AM
Since my experience and training is only LE tactical I personally don't use them (and yes I "feel" they are cheating - or maybe more accurately a crutch). I know our military seems to use them much more recently (and maybe LE agencies are starting too also) - but I just always get concerned about that fact that we will all revert to muscle memory (i.e. training) when a situation occurs. So, I have chosen to not even have fun with them out of fear that it will impede my abilities in a high stress situation/event.

I know people here can/will probably prove the red dots have come a long way in reliability, but "what if" it doesn't work when you really it most, and it is what you have trained with or had fun with for too many range sessions that you accidentally go looking for it in a worst case event?

This may sound funny, but I my play time mimics my training time so I never worry about having accidental bad habits come up in a high stress event.

speedrrracer
11-21-2012, 9:50 AM
How is a red dot cheating but iron sights are not?

How is a straight barrel not cheating? Ammo that flies straight is clearly cheating.

It's all just assistance to help you hit what you're aiming at. If you feel like you're something special with that red dot pistol, try shooting a fast-moving target at 50 yards.

Then you'll wish you had more cheating ;)

Czsp-01-9mm
11-21-2012, 10:01 AM
I look at it like a car, red dots are like automatic transmission easy to use and easy to learn, not cheating, iron sights are manual transmission, need to learn the techniques and all that fun stuff, once u master iron sights u can master red dot easier

mif_slim
11-21-2012, 10:10 AM
Cheating is when you have Aimbot on. RDS only helps you get to target faster.

cineski
11-21-2012, 10:18 AM
Why is any device meant to make you faster and more accurate cheating? That's like saying if a criminal is going to break into your house and kill you and take your money, it would be cheating if you didn't fight that person in hand to hand combat.

glassparman
11-21-2012, 10:24 AM
I have a red dot site on my .303 British Jungle Carbine. OK, laugh after I'm finished with my story.

I can move across the range and quickly raise the rifle and site in and shoot 2" MOA at 100 yds.

I think it gives me more accuracy when I'm on the move and have to grab the target quickly.

It is my first red dot and my son and I both love it.

But again, there are other factors. I have shot a great deal with .30 caliber bolt action at 100 yds and I'm comfortable with it.

IMHO :)

viet4lifeOC
11-21-2012, 10:28 AM
Cheating is not doing anything possible for you to get the OPTIMAL performance and fun out of any handgun for your specific need.

killathrilla
11-21-2012, 10:28 AM
In the world of firearms the phrase ...."If u ain't cheatin u ain't tryin!!" applies!!

TMC
11-21-2012, 10:40 AM
Cheating only applies if you're keeping score.

nrgcruizer
11-21-2012, 10:43 AM
Lots of great advice here. I like using my irons because I don't want to lose my discipline. If you made a half-hearted attempt at using your irons, you'd only be cheating yourself. I see too many young guys drop their irons and attaching a laser pointer or red dot on their firearms & still not hit their target. Using your red dot after you've become efficient with your irons can only enhance your skill set.

You should take the advice of those who challenge you to go out 50-75 yds & engage multiple targets. I have never done that with a red dot. Just irons.

Kappy
11-21-2012, 11:00 AM
One final thought... We're talking pistols. If you don't plan to ever carry, no issue. If you do plan to carry and get used to using a red dot, you may have an issue, since I cannot imagine anyone actually carrying a red dot concealed.

Aside from that... Go at it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RileyBean
11-21-2012, 11:07 AM
I look at it like a car, red dots are like automatic transmission easy to use and easy to learn, not cheating, iron sights are manual transmission, need to learn the techniques and all that fun stuff, once u master iron sights u can master red dot easier

That's a GREAT analogy! [and, yeah, if you were a race car driver I'd call an automatic trans a crutch too :p ]

NorCalXJ
11-21-2012, 11:09 AM
Iron sights for life

tbc
11-21-2012, 11:29 AM
If there are no rules, then it is not cheating. For HD or SD purposes, I wouldn't rely on red dot.


Sent from iPhone through Tapatalk

BamBam-31
11-21-2012, 8:31 PM
In a way, it is cheating. You no longer have to deal with three separate planes vying for your eye's attention. Your target, normally out of focus when using iron sights, is now razor sharp edge-to-edge. Of course it should be more accurate.

That said, of all the different factors that go into accurate shooting, I would say trigger pull is probably most significant (likely because it's the most difficult to master). It's easier to teach people grip, stance, breathing, sight picture (which your red dot question falls under), etc. IOW, some REALLY accurate shooting can be done with irons alone if your trigger pull is up to snuff.

You wanna make a million dollars? Invent a device that takes trigger pull out of the equation the same way red dots take sight picture out of the equation.

On a .22lr? Go for it. It's really hard to envision a firearm that's more fun than a .22lr rifle or pistol topped off with a red dot. On steel, it's so much fun you'll get in trouble with the RO's at the range. Just don't overlook the importance of training with iron sights when shooting pistols. Unlike rifles, serious use of a pistol is irons exclusively.

tuna quesadilla
11-21-2012, 9:12 PM
When it comes to gunfighting, if you're not cheating then you're doing it wrong.

enzo357
11-21-2012, 9:46 PM
The dot is a great tool. Use it to practice that great trigger pull. Helps a lot when working fast indexing. Great trainer for new shooters. Not cheating, just another tool in our quest to become better shooters. Plus it is a lot of fun to hit the target at 50 yards rapid fire. Enjoy.

huckberry668
11-21-2012, 10:01 PM
My PPC revolver has iron sights but the sight rib has Weaver cross slots. I tried shooting both iron and 1x red dot to see if I get any accuracy gains with red dot sight. Guess what? NONE what so ever. Dot or post, it's me who's shooting the gun.

Red dot did help me shoot a lot faster due to the single vivid aiming point and 'center' on 'center' nature of the aim. But your movement is seen amplified.

With iron it takes a lot more focus to align the sights on target. And because you don't see the wobbling of the sights you feel more confident taking the shot.

For some of us older guys with tired old eyes, red dot helps tremendously.

nicki
11-21-2012, 10:11 PM
Cheating only applies with agreed upon rules such as a competition.

Even though the red dot is helping you see your target better, it does nothing in regard to your trigger control and other motor skills with regards to shooting.

Where you may have a problem is if you become dependent on using red dots and you find yourself without one.

As far as self defense situations go, there are no rules and if you come in second, you may come in dead.;)

Nicki

Steve_In_29
11-21-2012, 10:26 PM
Cheating? Tell that to GySgt Zins who won at Camp Perry using a red dot (as did all the other serious competitors).

A dot is just another tool but you need to stay in practice with all your tools.

JNunez23
11-21-2012, 10:38 PM
Not my cup of tea, but to each his own. I totally see the purpose of it, but it might make it too easy..

bubbapug1
11-21-2012, 10:52 PM
Are eyeglasses cheating?

Are trigger jobs cheating?

Is knowing your zero's cheating?

Is knowing your ballistics cheating?

Is buying an Iphone ballistics calculator cheating?

If you chrony your loads is that cheating?

Is hearing protection cheating?

Is having a dog to bark at intruders cheating?

Is having a home alarm system cheating?

Is reloading more accurate ammo cheating?

Is practicing cheating?

All of them make you better in shooting and HD....

There are purists, and than there are cry babies who ***** when someone with a red dot beats them in a match or shoots them dead when they are caught over matched red handed in an armed robbery...because they are stuck on 1700 technology or don't have the scratch to arm up to the best technology they can get to shoot better.

I am not sure what your cheating at....

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr177/bubbapug1/race9.jpg

JTROKS
11-22-2012, 12:03 AM
I think 9mm Major is cheating.

Just kidding. ;)

The red dot is an advantage as in faster target acquisition. Accuracy is still dependent on the shooter, but they should be classified in a different category like in USPSA/IPSC. If one is just shooting for recreation it's not cheating. If you start comparing how good your grouping against an iron sighted shooter then it's cheating.

Are eyeglasses cheating?

Are trigger jobs cheating?

Is knowing your zero's cheating?

Is knowing your ballistics cheating?

Is buying an Iphone ballistics calculator cheating?

If you chrony your loads is that cheating?

Is hearing protection cheating?

Is having a dog to bark at intruders cheating?

Is having a home alarm system cheating?

Is reloading more accurate ammo cheating?

Is practicing cheating?

All of them make you better in shooting and HD....

There are purists, and than there are cry babies who ***** when someone with a red dot beats them in a match or shoots them dead when they are caught over matched red handed in an armed robbery...because they are stuck on 1700 technology or don't have the scratch to arm up to the best technology they can get to shoot better.

I am not sure what your cheating at....

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr177/bubbapug1/race9.jpg

Bug Splat
11-22-2012, 12:15 AM
I have a red dot on my Buckmark and its great for speed, below average for accuracy. I built it for plate matches and man could I run the plates like a pro with time to spare. I have not competed in years but I still bring it to the range for fun and to let noobs shoot with it. They like how easy it is to aim with. Its really surprising how many people don't understand how to use iron sights. I just hand them the buckmark and tell them to put the red dot on the target and pull. They have much more fun not having to try and align irons.

CrippledPidgeon
11-22-2012, 5:32 AM
I suggest mastering your fundamentals before cutting corners with the dot. But that's just me.

44fred
11-22-2012, 5:59 AM
I can imagine this question coming up 150 or so years ago when the world was introduced to the first optics.
Come to think of it, when was the first scope introduced? Should I start another post? Yes.
The older my eyes get, the more I'm looking at "cheating". :-)

HighLander51
11-22-2012, 6:30 AM
it is skill or is it cheating?

If you ever decide to run Steel Challenge, you will be in Open Division. That means shooting a competition match under the clock which is scored. But that's still not cheating. The real definition of cheating in competition is knowing the rules better than anyone else.

HighLander51
11-22-2012, 6:32 AM
I think 9mm Major is cheating.



Yes, that is cheating because 9mm major should be allowed in Limited....

IronWorksTactical
11-22-2012, 6:34 AM
Not cheating. Acquiring sight picture is only one, relatively small part of accuracy. You still have to work the trigger, which includes holding the gun properly, breathing properly, following through, etc.

Nail on the head. Trigger control is detrimental. If you have sights on target whether its a laser, red dot, irons, riflescope and you can't do a proper trigger draw and reset you won't be hitting where you intend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grumpyoldretiredcop
11-22-2012, 10:43 AM
As has already been said, if there ain't rules against it, it ain't cheating. Your Buckmark being a range toy, the whole "bet your life" thing doesn't factor in. Try it, have fun with it, but don't neglect the use of iron sights if you have other pistols, have one for HD or carry.

TempleKnight
11-22-2012, 10:54 AM
One final thought... We're talking pistols. If you don't plan to ever carry, no issue. If you do plan to carry and get used to using a red dot, you may have an issue, since I cannot imagine anyone actually carrying a red dot concealed.

Aside from that... Go at it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've had an Optima RDS on my S&W 59 for over 20 years. It doesn't make it any less concealable. I do prefer my HK USPc for carry purposes, though.

For competition, a C-More isn't cheating on an open gun; it's almost required. I would disagree about RDS being less accurate than irons. It depends a lot on the size of the dot. Open shooters have a huge advantage over ltd/prod shooters at 25/30 yards.

USMC 82-86
11-22-2012, 12:07 PM
I seldom use my sights out to 10 yards. I focus on a spot and press the gun forward and fire. I have become very good with this method out to 10 yards. I guess I have shot a longbow for so long and focus on a spot on the target or deer and let the arrow fly. I believe the red dot is a very good way to pick up a target very quickly and engage multiple targets. It would also work well for defensive shooting and in that case there is no cheating.

I have only used the red dot a few times but it was cool when I did and it did seem to help me out around 20-25 yards but my eyes are not what they used to be at that distance either. Regardless of the sighting system used trigger control is key for precision type shooting. I just hitting the target quick is a priority then that red dot will be a great help. Either way they are fun to use, so enjoy.

Can't buy anything here
11-22-2012, 12:15 PM
It's only cheating if you pull it on someone while playing cards.

huckberry668
11-22-2012, 12:26 PM
I've brought many new shooters into the sport. Young, old, men and women. Red dot sights and scopes make it easy for them all to learn and have fun. Changes the perceptions of firearms for the better for most of them.

The different classes in competition are to level the playing field and physically challenges. Optics class allows new shooters and vision challenged shooters to compete and that's a great thing for the sport.

Shooting is supposed to 'safe' first then 'fun'.. lots of fun for a long time hopefully. Make it challenging is up to the individual.

cannon
11-22-2012, 12:33 PM
Cheating? Wait until your old, half deaf and need glasses for reading and different glasses for seeing.

Cheating? Hell son they are mandatory.

myk
11-22-2012, 1:56 PM
Cheating? Cheating is such a "negative" word, and it depends on the context of the situation. I consider red dots/sighting tools as aids to further increase your chances of hitting your target. I guess if another shooter and I were to square off in a competition at the range and I run irons while he/she runs a red dot it could be considered cheating. Other than that, red dots are just sighting tools...

bubbapug1
11-22-2012, 2:22 PM
It's only cheating if you pull it on someone while playing cards.


The new American ethos.....It's only cheating if you get caught AND convicted.

bombadillo
11-22-2012, 2:24 PM
I know I personally shoot much better with the same gun and irons than I do with a red dot sight. I had 3 different sights that were all quality sights and I kept going back to the original adjustable gun sights. The only thing I really liked to do was shoot at 100/200 yards with a red dot and practice off hand shooting.