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View Full Version : Penalty for Owning an Illegally acquired Weapon


ianS
07-27-2007, 3:30 PM
What's the penalty for owning a weapon bought out in the black market? I told someone I met at the range he could go to jail for owning his .22lr rifle and that he should think about turning it in. I wasn't sure about the jail part but I wanted to impart to him what deep doo doo he could get into if he were to get caught.

bwiese
07-27-2007, 3:41 PM
If the gun's not stolen or fundamentally illegal (i.e, AW, machinegun, SBR, etc.), both parties are not otherwise prohibited from firearms ownership (to avoid things like felon-in-possession charges) I believe it's a misdemeanor if no other aggravating issues. Gang member/felon recipient changes the whole picture.

If the recipient is convicted of using the gun in a felony crime I believe escalated charges can apply to the seller.

ianS
07-27-2007, 3:51 PM
I'm just surprised there are people who would blithely flout the law and be completely at ease with it. Again, for some people laws just do not exist.

giarcpnw
07-27-2007, 4:57 PM
22lr rifle or pistol?

If a rifle, if it's not reported stolen and he's not restricted from owning a firearm, why would it matter how he got it? Long guns aren't registered. Is this any different then me going back to Texas and driving home with my 10/22 that's in my parents closet? I wouldn't need to tell a soul i brought it back. It's 20 years old and certainly wasn't registered in Texas back then. That thing hypothetically could have passed hands a thousand times.

Just curious how the guy is flaunting the law? I mean, i under stand how DROS works, don't we all. But really that's just so the state can make money off us for every gun sale. In other states, the check is immediate and free. Either way, the weapon is not registered and there is no record of sale kept.

(discalimer: I am not promoting the illegal sale or trading of guns in the state of california)

C

bwiese
07-27-2007, 5:04 PM
If a rifle, if it's not reported stolen and he's not restricted from owning a firearm, why would it matter how he got it? Long guns aren't registered. Is this any different then me going back to Texas and driving home with my 10/22 that's in my parents closet? I wouldn't need to tell a soul i brought it back. It's 20 years old and certainly wasn't registered in Texas back then. That thing hypothetically could have passed hands a thousand times.

Regardless of ease of rifle trackability or probability of detection, most paper-free private transfers of firearms without DROS/waiting period in CA are illegal.

And whoever boasts about it is stoopid, esp as it gets another person in trouble- that's the 'flaunting' part.


Just curious how the guy is flaunting the law? I mean, i under stand how DROS works, don't we all. But really that's just so the state can make money off us for every gun sale. In other states, the check is immediate and free.


Yes, but that's not the point. The fact is, the subject was about legality - not practicality of tracing.

Fate
07-27-2007, 5:10 PM
Regardless of ease of rifle trackability or probability of detection, most paper-free private transfers of firearms without DROS/waiting period in CA are illegal.

Curio and Relic (over 50 years old) longarms are the exception. ;) In fact, I just sold an old rifle this afternoon. Cash and a handshake. Like it should be.

AJAX22
07-27-2007, 5:26 PM
Just a thought,

but doesnt the State law read that only transactions within the state of CA are required to go through a dealer?

And doesn't the federal law simply require that private party sales occur between residents of the same state? (over simplification but basicly)

so what keeps private citizens from selling eachother long guns (or hand guns even, so long as they fill out the personal handgun importer form) while both citizens are visiting another state?

I haven't done this, but I've often wondered about the legality of it.

Fjold
07-27-2007, 5:44 PM
I see it all the times at ranges. Some guy who's bragging that he just bought this almost brand new gun yesterday off his friend or relative, I'll ask where he got the transfer done and he'll say he doesn't do that, adding something like "The gubbermint should keep their noses out of it".

leelaw
07-27-2007, 5:55 PM
Just a thought,

but doesnt the State law read that only transactions within the state of CA are required to go through a dealer?

And doesn't the federal law simply require that private party sales occur between residents of the same state? (over simplification but basicly)

so what keeps private citizens from selling eachother long guns (or hand guns even, so long as they fill out the personal handgun importer form) while both citizens are visiting another state?

I haven't done this, but I've often wondered about the legality of it.

Fed's also state that both parties need to be residents of the state where the sale is taking place, and that the transfer needs to meet the legal requirements of the state for both the seller and receiver state. SinceCalifornia requires DROS, you need to use it.

Hoop
07-27-2007, 6:18 PM
I'm just surprised there are people who would blithely flout the law and be completely at ease with it. Again, for some people laws just do not exist.

I bet you got lots of people sent to the office for writing on the bathroom wall and talking in class when you were in kindergarten huh?

Bishop
07-27-2007, 6:32 PM
I'm just surprised there are people who would blithely flout the law and be completely at ease with it. Again, for some people laws just do not exist.

Especially in california due to the AW ban there are TONS of guns that are "illegally" in private ownership. Someone posted the AW registration numbers once, and there are quite a few guns out there that are illegal because of california's current law. I'd even wager that a large number of those are on accident because gun owners were not adequately informed of the changes in the law before they went into place. Most are of the mind that if they do nothing wrong with them, there's no problem. Some cops have even expressed that sentiment. I think you'd be very surprised to know how common this is.

I should note that I don't like trouble, and I like to stay informed, so I'm not one of those people.

I'm not even getting into the question of obeying an unconstitutional law... :rolleyes:

CRTguns
07-27-2007, 9:07 PM
I own a gun shop in Modesto...
goes like this.... True story.. disturbing at very least.

-2003, Bob brings in S&W pistol to PP sale to John. 10 days go buy, all laws complied with, John takes gun home.

-2007 John brings in SAME gun, PP sale to Bill. 10 days go buy, all laws complied with, Bill takes gun home.

-Bob and John live in Modesto, Bill lives in Merced.

AFTER 10 day wait, Merced PD calls,
PD, "we need that gun- it was reported stolen in 2001! Do you still have it?'
Me, "No, the guy waited 10 days, as required by law, it's gone now."
PD, "well, you can't sell as tolen gun."
Me, "I know- that's why there's a 10 day wait and onfo transmitted to DOJ and LE for background check into seller/purchaser/gun history/background/status, etc..."
PD, "well, things fall through cracks."
Me, "you mean crack like Modesto PD?"
PD, "yes, I need address of Bill, he's in trouble."

so- what should I have done. Bob, John and Bill were all compliant with laws re: transfer of gun. Bill did not know gun was stolen, Bob did not know, John did not know. Fact is, Modesto PD, and/or DOJ don't actually check transactions.

happy ending- intent to process DROS and PP transfer absolve all involved of potential posession or conspiracy charges, but the gun was taken, and no restitution paid by the flaky PD.

The end.

socalguns
07-27-2007, 9:24 PM
you can't take people at their word, unless you believe i'm the sofa king, emperor of the north pole :)

thedrickel
07-27-2007, 9:42 PM
I don't think anybody cares who claims ownership, but if you are caught in POSSESSION of a hot gun, good luck!

ianS
07-27-2007, 11:40 PM
I bet you got lots of people sent to the office for writing on the bathroom wall and talking in class when you were in kindergarten huh?


Yeah, you're so right. And if you break the law say, buying and selling automatic weapons out of your trunk I'll rat you out too. So you better watch it buddy.:rolleyes:

Mark in Eureka
07-27-2007, 11:58 PM
That you can legally transfer without a dealer any Curio or Relic firearm (50 years or older or listed by the ATF as a Curio and Relic) that is not a handgun, or assualt weapon. That means you my transfer almost all rifles and shotguns over the age of 50, and a few select otheres.

This is only citizen to citizen. If a dealer is involved all law apply.

Mssr. Eleganté
07-28-2007, 2:39 AM
That you can legally transfer without a dealer any Curio or Relic firearm (50 years or older or listed by the ATF as a Curio and Relic) that is not a handgun, or assualt weapon. That means you my transfer almost all rifles and shotguns over the age of 50, and a few select otheres.

That's not quite correct. California law allows the kinds of transfers you describe, but the wording of the law says the long guns have to be 50 years old and Federally defined as C&R. Your post says "or listed" but it should say "and defined".

So any long guns that are defined as C&R only because they are on ATF's C&R list but aren't yet 50 years old would not qualify for the California Dealer transfer exemption.

ViPER395
07-28-2007, 3:52 AM
Yeah, you're so right. And if you break the law say, buying and selling automatic weapons out of your trunk I'll rat you out too. So you better watch it buddy.:rolleyes:

I'm, with Hoop..

At what point do YOU draw the line? Would you harass or turn in someone with a flash-hider? How about a high-capacity mag? How about an OLL?

Who made you the gun police? Who made you judge and jury?

People like you, IanS, are almost as bad as DiFi and the other gungrabbers. You give them fodder. They use people like you to get ahead. Gun owners should stick together.

Short of your example of some gangbanger peddling automatic weapons out of the trunk on 1st street, i'd keep my mouth shut, and I don't think i'd be accusing anyone on the firing line that they are a criminal. No matter what's on their rifle, or what story they give you.

It's sad when your fellow gunowners have become DOJs puppets.

I have a dozen rifles and the only ones i've DROSd or have any paperwork for are the ones I bought new at the shop. They're intrafamiliar transfers and C&R transfers (where applicable) :43:... I'd like the DOJ or you, Ian to prove me a criminal... Wait lemme put this doobie out. :rolleyes: Okay now.


Deleted please read the rules regarding suggesting illegal activity.

CalNRA
07-28-2007, 4:04 AM
so would you be okay with segregation laws if they are instituted again? I mean, after all they are laws.

I'm just surprised there are people who would blithely flout the law and be completely at ease with it. Again, for some people laws just do not exist. http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r117/calnra/1010_hall_monitor_cartman.jpg

-Cartman: I know. It's like a hall pass doesn't even matter to her.

saki302
07-28-2007, 4:49 AM
Don't forget- until 1991 (I think- somewhere around there anyhow) you were not required to DROS all private party transfers, so there are still LOTS of old un-DROS-registered handguns floating around in some folks' collections.
I vaguely remember the 'good old days' and the subsequent tightening up of transfers at the gun shows.

But obviously, if you own an H&K USP or 5.7, you didn't buy it legally in 1990...

-Dave

supersonic
07-28-2007, 5:44 AM
Curio and Relic (over 50 years old) longarms are the exception. ;) In fact, I just sold an old rifle this afternoon. Cash and a handshake. Like it should be.

My M1 & my SKS are both WAY more than 50 yrs. old, and I had to go thru all the b*****t! Think maybe they have to be a little older & probably single shot/blackpowder(?)
S.S.:43:

yoteassasin
07-28-2007, 8:12 AM
ha its amazing what i see here. first it was some one saying they wouldn't help a woman getting accosted 'cause its not THEIR BUSINESS and now people want to tadle on each other come on guys ... first off where the hell is your moral compass and since when did you start bowwing down to our government we give them the power and some day soon WE are going to take it back come on cal guners

yoteassasin
07-28-2007, 8:15 AM
I bet you got lots of people sent to the office for writing on the bathroom wall and talking in class when you were in kindergarten huh?

HA....... what he said.

maxicon
07-28-2007, 8:18 AM
My M1 & my SKS are both WAY more than 50 yrs. old, and I had to go thru all the b*****t! Think maybe they have to be a little older & probably single shot/blackpowder(?)
S.S.:43:

If you bought from a dealer, it doesn't matter - you still need all the paperwork. If you bought from an individual in a PPT, long guns over 50 years old are cash and carry.

SemiAutoSam
07-28-2007, 8:29 AM
I own a few handguns that didn't go through the DROS process. there are the ones that were purchased in a PPT situation prior to 1991 and then there is another gap.

The handguns that I and others brought into the state when I moved back here from Nevada prior to 1998. as Jan 01 1998 is the date that the DOJ or rather by law? (citation needed) those moving into California from another state were required to declare their handgun ownership According to a poster on the wall of the DMV.

Don't forget- until 1991 (I think- somewhere around there anyhow) you were not required to DROS all private party transfers, so there are still LOTS of old un-DROS-registered handguns floating around in some folks' collections.
I vaguely remember the 'good old days' and the subsequent tightening up of transfers at the gun shows.

But obviously, if you own an H&K USP or 5.7, you didn't buy it legally in 1990...

-Dave

ianS
07-28-2007, 10:21 AM
Some of you guys are ridiculous.

There are laws I disagree with (like marijuana, most gun laws) and laws I agree with. Like prohibiting buying and selling of guns on the black market. What if this .22 was stolen out of your home? If some y'all want to make me into a Boy Scout and a fodder for the Anti's (please:rolleyes:) fine. But I didn't snitch on the dude either. I was in my way trying to tell him he should be careful but it also pissed me off that he didn't know where it came from and he didn't care. If some crack whore steals your precious CA compliant black rifle for their next fix I'll have little sympathy for ya.

Wild Bill
07-28-2007, 1:12 PM
Some of you guys are ridiculous.

If some crack whore steals your precious CA compliant black rifle for their next fix I'll have little sympathy for ya.


If you let someone like that near your collection. Then you deserve what will probably happen.

:nuts:

saki302
07-28-2007, 3:50 PM
Also, if the guy bought that .22LR off a buddy or at a gun show, it's probably not stolen, and hardly a 'black market' gun.
'Black Market' makes it sound like he walked into a warehouse with some euro dude and a cache of G36 and MP5s on the wall.

-Dave

ianS
07-28-2007, 10:37 PM
The guy (seller) was a stranger. I asked who he bought it from and it was some guy he was introduced to when he asked around for a gun for protection for his liquor store.

supersonic
07-29-2007, 1:06 AM
Yeah, you're so right. And if you break the law say, buying and selling automatic weapons out of your trunk I'll rat you out too. So you better watch it buddy.:rolleyes:

Just the fact that you would be in a position to be able to view such a crime going down says a lot about you. One thing comes to mind : you probably shouldn't even be posting on this forum:confused:
S.S.:43:
by the way, what in the hell does "fodder for the anti's" mean, and how does it relate to Calgunners vs. you? I'm confused. It IS what y'all said, ain't it?

ianS
07-29-2007, 7:18 AM
Just the fact that you would be in a position to be able to view such a crime going down says a lot about you. One thing comes to mind : you probably shouldn't even be posting on this forum:confused:
S.S.:43:
by the way, what in the hell does "fodder for the anti's" mean, and how does it relate to Calgunners vs. you? I'm confused. It IS what y'all said, ain't it?

It was a "joke". Purely hypothetical. People accuse me of being a some kind of boy scout or "hall monitor". Where in this thread does it say I did that?

1. I post a question about what the penalty is about some guy buying a gun from a total stranger. Simple question. I wanted to make sure I told him the accurate info regarding the law if there is a next time. What's wrong with trying to help someone be informed of the law? What people do with the knowledge that it is illegal is their concern.

2. Yes, it'd be great if people could trade their guns like baseball cards, like all private property. No restrictions and no Gov't involvement. But yes, I am sensitive when it comes to stolen guns. It didn't seem like he cared where it came from.

3. Its obvious some people are senstitive about this topic. Exactly what it is I posted I'm not quite sure. Lots of people are inferring and assuming more than there really is. There was a question recently about attaching a pistol grip to an AK with a detachable magazine. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=64521 Members here overwhelmingly urged him not to do it. How is what I'm asking about and doing any different?

The anger and vitriol directed at me is unreal. I'm confused. What is it that I don't "get"? :confused:

supersonic
07-29-2007, 9:43 AM
It was a "joke". Purely hypothetical. People accuse me of being a some kind of boy scout or "hall monitor". Where in this thread does it say I did that?


The anger and vitriol directed at me is unreal. I'm confused. What is it that I don't "get"? :confused:

Maybe I didn't read it right (or maybe you didn't convey what you were trying to say in writing), but I've been flamed unexpectedly on this forum enough to know that you are probably nursing a very sore rectum right now, so................uh................peace be w/ you, fellow human.
S.S.:43:

ianS
07-29-2007, 9:53 AM
Maybe I didn't read it right (or maybe you didn't convey what you were trying to say in writing), but I've been flamed unexpectedly on this forum enough to know that you are probably nursing a very sore rectum right now, so................uh................peace be w/ you, fellow human.
S.S.:43:

Uh, right. It only seems "some" people want to misunderstand one another and find every opportunity to get on their soap box and grand stand.

GTKrockeTT
07-29-2007, 9:56 AM
let's lay off ianS, he's one of the good guys, and a true firearms enthusiast.

socalguns
07-30-2007, 1:47 AM
So you're saying they were laying on ianS? Eeeew :p

supersonic
07-30-2007, 6:15 AM
So you're saying they were laying on ianS? Eeeew :p

Hence the sore.........what I said earlier.:eek:
S.S.:43:

KDOFisch
07-30-2007, 8:38 AM
Also, if the guy bought that .22LR off a buddy or at a gun show, it's probably not stolen, and hardly a 'black market' gun.
'Black Market' makes it sound like he walked into a warehouse with some euro dude and a cache of G36 and MP5s on the wall.

-Dave

Lol Willkommen to Fritz's Super-Cool Gunshop- Vee take Visakarten!:cool2:

ianS
07-30-2007, 8:44 AM
Hence the sore.........what I said earlier.:eek:
S.S.:43:


Knowing this group its a good thing I prepared and wore a cast iron cod piece. Notice I've opted out of the Calguns group shower in my personal profile.

Rob Jones
07-30-2007, 10:19 AM
That's not quite correct. California law allows the kinds of transfers you describe, but the wording of the law says the long guns have to be 50 years old and Federally defined as C&R. Your post says "or listed" but it should say "and defined".

So any long guns that are defined as C&R only because they are on ATF's C&R list but aren't yet 50 years old would not qualify for the California Dealer transfer exemption.

Per USC, the definition of a C&R weapon is:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to
collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with
firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons.
To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of
the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the
current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal,
State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics
of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their
monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or
because of their association with some historical figure, period, or
event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this
category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence
that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or
that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial
channels is substantially less.

So, if the firearm is simply older than 50 years, it is automatically considered a C&R firearm (at the Federal level) which I interpret to mean that it doesn't need to be explicitly listed in ATF's C&R List, which does in fact contain lots of firearms that are NOT 50 years old....

If anyone else has more info about this, please post it...

Rob

supersonic
07-30-2007, 11:02 AM
Knowing this group its a good thing I prepared and wore a cast iron cod piece. Notice I've opted out of the Calguns group shower in my personal profile.
I thought cod piece only protects FRONTAL AREA!:confused:
s.s.:43:

Glock22Fan
07-30-2007, 11:44 AM
The guy (seller) was a stranger. I asked who he bought it from and it was some guy he was introduced to when he asked around for a gun for protection for his liquor store.

He wanted protection for his liquor store and he bought a .22 rifle?????

I've got some oceanside property in Kansas I'm selling, if he's interested.

ianS
07-30-2007, 12:10 PM
I thought cod piece only protects FRONTAL AREA!:confused:
s.s.:43:

I think you might need a cod piece for your FRONTAL LOBE.

You can have the last word. But look for another thread to crap on. Move on.

1064chubbs
07-30-2007, 1:21 PM
ian the guy may not know the gun laws in the state. I did not and in my younger days I would buy handguns and rifles in the "Black Market" I still talk to some of my former providers and they are felons now because of the selling of firearms (and yet they still sell just about anything you want from FA's to SBR's):eek:. I dont have any more firearms that I aquired illegaly but it took the ATF to come after me before I started to look for help and in finding what was legal and what was not (thats when I found this site). Fortunately I was not charged with anything and I can still buy firearms legally through FFL's and the ATF agent that was on my case is now a person that I talk to regularly for advice.