PDA

View Full Version : Are these legal in california???


dfxjedi
07-25-2007, 10:53 PM
Check out the link and let me know if they're legal in cali and if they're not,please tell me exactly why.
Thanks
http://www.ioinc.us/ssg97article.jpg

I forgot to mention that i saw these at www.ioinc.us and that I'm only interested in the 7.62x54R.

Tweak338
07-25-2007, 10:56 PM
They are legal, but not in that configuration.
The thumbhole stock would need to be filled in, or a AK bullet button installed.

Call CWS, they can help you out.

Lateralus
07-25-2007, 10:59 PM
the PSL isnt listed, but in its stock configuration isnt leagal, as it has a detachable magazine and evil features.

You could make it legal by fixing the mag, or removing the features. Unless the device on the muzzle is a flash supressor, you would have to do something bout the stock. Either you can fillin the hole, or get a solid stock w/ no pistol grip. Either way, its difficult to explain it to the seller lol.

So as its pictured on the website, no. its not.

Crazed_SS
07-26-2007, 7:53 AM
Check out the link and let me know if they're legal in cali and if they're not,please tell me exactly why.
Thanks
http://www.ioinc.us/ssg97article.jpg

I forgot to mention that i saw these at www.ioinc.us and that I'm only interested in the 7.62x54R.

In it's fully functional configuration, as shown in the article there, it isnt legal.
Thumbhole stock + Detachable Magazine = Assault Weapon. Cmon man, this is day one stuff.

dfxjedi
07-28-2007, 8:15 PM
the PSL isnt listed, but in its stock configuration isnt leagal, as it has a detachable magazine and evil features.

You could make it legal by fixing the mag, or removing the features. Unless the device on the muzzle is a flash supressor, you would have to do something bout the stock. Either you can fillin the hole, or get a solid stock w/ no pistol grip. Either way, its difficult to explain it to the seller lol.

So as its pictured on the website, no. its not.

So you'r saying if it has a muzzle flash supressor it'd be legal?
I thought the mag would be legal for sure,it's only 10 rounds,why would i have to fix it to the rifle?Also someone else mentioned that i'd either have to fill in the thumbhole or put a different stock on it,why in the world would i want to ruin the gun by filling in the thumbhole or changing the stock,i understand that's the law,but why would anyone want to make it ugly looking by putting a different stock on it or filling in the hole?:eek:That would ruin the gun in my opinion:eek:.
Anyway I was mainly curious about weather it was legal in california,
thank you guys for letting me know(I figuired it wasn't legal,too good to be true:().

Josh3239
07-28-2007, 8:54 PM
I got a PSL. Had it transfered into California the thumbhole stock removed, when the DROS ends I will install a magazine lock and re-attach the stock.

And the muzzle device isn't a flash hider, its a brake.

bwiese
07-28-2007, 9:04 PM
So you'r saying if it has a muzzle flash supressor it'd be legal?

What do you mean a 'muzzle flash suppressor'? Sounds like you're mixing terms.

There are two separate items, muzzle brake, and flash suppressor.

A muzzle brake that does not reduce flash is not an 'evil feature' relating to CA assault weapons status.


I thought the mag would be legal for sure,it's only 10 rounds,why would i have to fix it to the rifle?

You are apparently not familiar with CA Penal code 12276.1, which defines configurations that result in assault wepaons status and Calif. Code of Regulations Title 11 sec 5469 which defines the various relevant 'evil features'. These laws differ substantially from the now-expired Federal 'Crime bill' assault weapons ban.

Bottom line, a semiauto centerfire rifle with a 10 round or less fixed magazine can have a pistol grip and/or flash hider and/or folding or collapsible stock.

A semiauto centerfire rifle with a detachable magazine (of any size) cannot have any 'evil features'. [A muzzle brake is not an evil feature, but a flash hider is.]

A semiauto centerfire rifle with a fixed magazine holding more than 10 rounds is also an asssault weapon in CA.

Please review AND UNDERSTAND the above Penal code and regulatory codes cited - there are resources available here -and quite a few knowledgable people - so you stay out of jail.



Also someone else mentioned that i'd either have to fill in the thumbhole or put a different stock on it,why in the world would i want to ruin the gun by filling in the thumbhole or changing the stock,i understand that's the law,but why would anyone want to make it ugly looking by putting a different stock on it or filling in the hole?:eek:

It's called jail, dude. Violation of this stuff results in FELONY charges. Read PC 12280(a) and (b).

People remove/mod the stocks Because they wanna stay out of jail and not have to play 'roomie' for Bubba. The goal here is legal usability, not cosmetics.

That would ruin the gun in my opinion:eek:.

Better that than jail!

This is serious sh*t, and woe to those who don't get the details right.

If it bothers you don't get one at all.


Anyway I was mainly curious about weather it was legal in california,
thank you guys for letting me know(I figuired it wasn't legal,too good to be true:().

Correct. Can't have a thumbhole stock on a semiauto centerfire rifle unless the rifle has a fixed 10 round magazine or less.

M. Sage
07-28-2007, 10:33 PM
So you'r saying if it has a muzzle flash supressor it'd be legal?
I thought the mag would be legal for sure,it's only 10 rounds,why would i have to fix it to the rifle?Also someone else mentioned that i'd either have to fill in the thumbhole or put a different stock on it,why in the world would i want to ruin the gun by filling in the thumbhole or changing the stock,i understand that's the law,but why would anyone want to make it ugly looking by putting a different stock on it or filling in the hole?:eek:That would ruin the gun in my opinion:eek:.
Anyway I was mainly curious about weather it was legal in california,
thank you guys for letting me know(I figuired it wasn't legal,too good to be true:().

It's crazy sounding at first, but a filled thumbhole stock is actually very comfortable to shoot. Far from ruining the gun.

I'm planning on doing this for an AK build I'm working on. :D

It IS legal, you just have to make a couple of changes. If messing with the stock would "ruin" the rifle, install a bullet button kit, then you have all the looks, and with a ten-round mag on a hunting rifle, what do you need quick changes for?

Look at it this way: they don't want us to have these in ANY configuration, but the letter of the law allows it (because they screwed up... because they're morons). Piss off a legislator: buy an evil rifle.

sen24
07-28-2007, 11:58 PM
I got a PSL. Had it transfered into California the thumbhole stock removed, when the DROS ends I will install a magazine lock and re-attach the stock.
have you tried loading a psl through the ejection port? i own a Tigr in 7.62x54r and you cannot load the rimmed cartridges like that because you have to load them forward into the magazine.

Tweak338
07-28-2007, 11:59 PM
have you tried loading a psl through the ejection port? i own a Tigr in 7.62x54r and you cannot load the rimmed cartridges like that because you have to load them forward into the magazine.

2 words.
Bullet Button.

sen24
07-29-2007, 12:01 AM
gotcha. now i need to get a psl with a BB.

xxG3xx
07-29-2007, 1:50 AM
if it had a bb on it would it be legal to have the flash suppressor on it?

oaklander
07-29-2007, 2:03 AM
if it had a bb on it would it be legal to have the flash suppressor on it?

Yes - BB allows all evil features - EXCEPT - you can only use a 10 round mag.

xxG3xx
07-29-2007, 2:24 AM
what tool is needed for an ak bb?

M. Sage
07-29-2007, 2:29 AM
Umm.... a bullet? Or, I guess, any other reasonably-pointy object.

Josh3239
07-29-2007, 10:44 AM
if it had a bb on it would it be legal to have the flash suppressor on it?

A locked mag can have any evil features. But that has nothing to do with the PSL because the muzzle device is a brake, not a flash hider.

what tool is needed for an ak bb?

I found a punch works best but you can use a bullet, screwdriver or any object that is pointy, won't bend and fits in hole :p.

Larker
07-30-2007, 12:27 PM
You could fit a stock similar to the Saiga (like this (http://www.savvysurvivor.com/saiga_rifles.htm)) rifles on that and keep the detachable magazine, couldn't you?

xxG3xx
07-30-2007, 3:40 PM
i would think so

Josh3239
07-30-2007, 4:36 PM
You could. I am trying to find an extra thumbhole stock so I can fill it in.

dfxjedi
08-01-2007, 5:15 PM
It IS legal, you just have to make a couple of changes. If messing with the stock would "ruin" the rifle, install a bullet button kit, then you have all the looks, and with a ten-round mag on a hunting rifle, what do you need quick changes for?

Look at it this way: they don't want us to have these in ANY configuration, but the letter of the law allows it (because they screwed up... because they're morons). Piss off a legislator: buy an evil rifle.

What in the world is a bullet button?
And in reply to whoever stated that i must not now a sertain law about these type of guns,most of my experience is with bolt action guns (such as the rem 700),so i really don't know any of the actual gun laws for this type of rifle,plus i'm no good at studying and memorizing gun laws(I do know,however,that a lot of the guns aren't legal in california that are on my wish list,at least in the setups i want them in,meaning full auto:D).
Anyway,if someone could,tell me what a bullet button is and perhaps post a link to some site that carries one of the kits I would greatly appreciate it.

P.S. I tried to do a quick search for a "bullet button",but couldn't find one.

Powersauce
08-01-2007, 5:40 PM
plus i'm no good at studying and memorizing gun laws :eek:

Go to http://www.calguns.net/ but do not go into the forum...there is a lot of info on there that you should read first.

M. Sage
08-01-2007, 5:52 PM
+1. The thing that really sucks (or maybe it's a good thing in the end) about being a gun owner in CA is that you practically have to become a gun lawyer.

What in the world is a bullet button?

A bullet button is a mag-locking device that allows you to remove the magazine using a bullet or similarly-shaped tool. The mag won't come out without a tool, therefore it's not "detachable" for purposes of SB23 (features ban.)

Here's a link to an AK bullet button kit at CWS: http://www.coldwarshooters.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25&products_id=362&zenid=b16e15ce3b0588628863312ccf2a96a5

Check out the following post by jjperl; http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=50335 His first post contains a photo of an installed AK-style bullet button.

If you want evil features with semi-auto functionality, you need a bullet button. If you want evil features with a readily-removable magazine: you need to block the gas port and make the rifle a bolt action. If you want full rifle functionality (semi-auto, no tool to drop mag): ditch the evil features and have fun.

Yeah, I think that about covers the ways to legalize it. Hope that helps you understand.

Josh3239
08-01-2007, 5:55 PM
Bullet Button is a magazine lock that allows you to have an attachable magazine and in accordance with SB23, drop a mag with a tool. Basically all a bullet button on an AR is, is a button that your finger cannot manipulate. You legally must use a tool to drop the mag; tool meaning a punch, screwdriver, a pointy object you found or a bullet.

If you cannot remember go to the CA DOJs website and bookmark/favorite SB23, the Kasler List, and Roberti Roos. You'd be surprised that there are plenty of guns we can buy if we used the right time and money to make them either featurless or magazine locked.

At the top of this website are links to retailers who will carry the bullet button. Most of the rifles in the .223 picture thread have bullet buttons installed.

What in the world is a bullet button?
And in reply to whoever stated that i must not now a sertain law about these type of guns,most of my experience is with bolt action guns (such as the rem 700),so i really don't know any of the actual gun laws for this type of rifle,plus i'm no good at studying and memorizing gun laws(I do know,however,that a lot of the guns aren't legal in california that are on my wish list,at least in the setups i want them in,meaning full auto:D).
Anyway,if someone could,tell me what a bullet button is and perhaps post a link to some site that carries one of the kits I would greatly appreciate it.

P.S. I tried to do a quick search for a "bullet button",but couldn't find one.

Ahh, Sage beat me to it :)

virulosity
08-01-2007, 6:18 PM
My advice to you is inform yourself. Do a bunch of reading and searching on these forums. If you want it bad enough you can get it legally, and others here have. Do the ALL of the research before you make a purchase!

M. Sage
08-01-2007, 9:04 PM
If you want it bad enough you can get it legally, and others here have. Do the ALL of the research before you make a purchase!

I agree totally. Do all the research YOURSELF, too. Make sure you're comfortable with the decision you're going to make before you make it. Not everybody else is.

Also, doing this stuff legally is the best slap we can give to the faces of those who tried to keep these out of our hands in any form. It's a middle finger to the Brady Bunch and legislators who think they're better than us... if you keep it legal.

Josh3239
08-01-2007, 9:17 PM
Exactly, the PSL for example that you showed interest in at the first post is very do-able. I just got one! You must find someone to bring it into the state with either the thumbhole stock detached (I did that) or have someone install a magazine lock. But you cannot bring a PSL into this state that can both take detachable magazine and has an attached thumbhole stock.

JustStarting
08-03-2007, 12:50 AM
I got a PSL. Had it transfered into California the thumbhole stock removed, when the DROS ends I will install a magazine lock and re-attach the stock.

And the muzzle device isn't a flash hider, its a brake.
Hey Josh,
Where did you order your PSL from? IOINC? I've been looking for a PSL for quite some time, I'd love to hear where you ordered from and if you're happy with the process so far.

Josh3239
08-03-2007, 11:39 AM
I was actually planning on buying a parts kit and receiver which are all over GunBroker.com. Instead what happend was I looked up complete PSL rifles on Gunbroker.com and sent the seller a message stating California law (mostly banned receivers, over all length, and SB23), how I plan to legalize it, and that my FFL dealer will accept it. He said that he understood and that I could bid. I bought it and had it shipped w/o the stock. So far I am very excited to shoot it.

JustStarting
08-03-2007, 12:12 PM
Thanks for the info Josh, I'll see what I can do. Where'd you find the button lock? I've never seen one for a PSL, AR's and AK's seem to be easy to find though.

xenophobe
08-03-2007, 12:20 PM
i really don't know any of the actual gun laws for this type of rifle,plus i'm no good at studying and memorizing gun laws

If you don't know or are not good at memorizing law, I would seriously avoid getting one of these, or any Off-List rifle.

If you cannot explain why it is legal to a law-enforcement officer with at least some confidence, your chances of going to jail goes way up.

Josh3239
08-03-2007, 12:50 PM
MorePoop4U mag lock didn't work. The space between the trigger guard and the spring in the mag release is to small to place the included screw. A bullet button will probably work, the thing is that the magazine release on a PSL is smaller than on an AK.

I decided to grab another thumbhole stock and fill it in. I already have an AK w/ a bullet button and an AR w/ a bullet button so having a featureless should be interesting.

My suggestion is to basically explain why the PSL is banned (SB23). Explain how to get around SB23 (featureless or magazine locked). Explain that the receiver is not banned and that your FFL will accept the transfer. Also tell them that there are Californians w/ AK, AR, FAL, and PTR series rifles. Also, refer them here if they have any questions about California law.