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entgunguy
07-25-2007, 3:20 PM
this is probably a stupid question. actually two questions.
#1 if i add a buttstock extension that slips on (no tools required) does that count towards the length?
#2 if i attach a flashlight on a rail system, and the end of the flashlight extends passed the end of the barrel, does that count towards the overall length?

C.G.
07-25-2007, 3:31 PM
this is probably a stupid question. actually two questions.
#1 if i add a buttstock extension that slips on (no tools required) does that count towards the length?
#2 if i attach a flashlight on a rail system, and the end of the flashlight extends passed the end of the barrel, does that count towards the overall length?

No.

Sal
07-25-2007, 3:59 PM
by california law as long as its on the gun and makes it longer it does actually count to the overall length, the CA laws have nothing in the overall length that states it has to be permanently attached.

So as long as the gun meets federal requirements before the addons then it should be fine.

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 4:17 PM
I sometimes get this mixed up, but the state measures the OAL different than the feds do.
I believe the feds are more lenient in that they measure with a colapsable stock in the extended position.
The federal OAL is also shorter than the state to boot...

PIRATE14
07-25-2007, 4:19 PM
MIN 26" inches which should be permament...........for the BATF/FED requirement.....:chris:

Get the PUMP for another 4" inches for all the CALI girls..........size does matter:eek:

I don't think the flashlight angle will work but a good idea......

C.G.
07-25-2007, 5:39 PM
by california law as long as its on the gun and makes it longer it does actually count to the overall length, the CA laws have nothing in the overall length that states it has to be permanently attached.


Do you want to spend a lot of money on lawyer fees to prove that point?

So as long as the gun meets federal requirements before the addons then it should be fine.

Incorrect, CA and Federal overall length laws are different.

SemiAutoSam
07-25-2007, 5:43 PM
Does anyone have a source for their info ? Federal title and section or CCR or PC section for your state law cite.

Here is what I found looking at the PC section.

http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12275.htm

(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

AKman
07-25-2007, 6:02 PM
Get the PUMP for another 4" inches for all the CALI girls..........size does matter:eek:

OUCH!:(

saki302
07-26-2007, 12:53 AM
If the Overall length law in CA required things to be permanently attached, then, unfortunately, ALL AKs and OLLs are now illegal. The buttstocks can easily be removed with tools, rendering them under 30" (or some variants, anyhow- anything with a 16" bbl).

The only thing which must be permanent is a barrel extension on a short barrel which makes the overall BBL length 16"+ in rifles, or 18"+ in shot guns- this is a federal law.

-Dave

bwiese
07-26-2007, 1:34 AM
Here's the skinny:

Fed measurement of min. firearm length: with stock opened/unfolded

CA measurement of min. firearm length: with stock CLOSED

Fed rifle min bbl length . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16"
Fed shotgun min bbl length . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18"
Fed min overall length . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 26"

CA min. rifle bbl length . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16"
CA min. shotgun bbl length . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18"
CA min. NONSEMIAUTO/ NONCENTERFIRE rifle OAL . . . 26"
CA min. semiauto centerfire rifle length . . . . . . . . . . 30" (semiauto centerfire rifles under 30" OAL are AWs!!)
CA min. shotgun (of any type) length . . . . . . . . . . . 26"


For both federal and state law, muzzle attachments required to bring barrel lengths up to min. legal length, as appropriate, must be permanently attached (ATF specifies pinned/welded, 1200deg silver solder, and this works for CA).

Inadvertent removal of a part from an ordinary semiauto centerfire rifle that originally was 30+" long and not a CA AW could possibly turn the rifle into an assault weapon.

However, a rifle without a buttstock isn't really a rifle: rifles are defined in 12020, and a stockless firearm surely is not intended to be fired from the shoulder, a concept required for the rifle definition to be active.

There is no specified permanence regarding any characteristic features in Calif. AW laws - we've already beaten down the DOJ on the fixed mag issues, where only a tool is required. No other AW-related feature - characterstic or otherwise - requires a tool, or permanence. Really, the only aspect of CA AW law (and also magazine law) where any measure of permanence applies is to magazines whose capacity is reduced to 10 rounds or less when used as a fixed mag.

We know constructive possession does not apply to AW configurations: removal of any attachments that were used to bring the rifle to 30" or more would be a 'construction' done by another party.

However using a slip-on pipe to extend bbl length to get the rifle above 30", or a slip-on buttpad to achieve similar goal is pretty edgy. We all saw what the San Jose Police Dept did trying to remove swimmingpoolguy's fixed magazine - they used a sledeghammer (which certainly was an 11 CCR 5469(a) 'tool'!) - so expect if push comes to shove things these things could fall off in the evidence locker.

Far more rational in such a situation would be to use a real extended-length trimmable buttpad or buttstock extension that's actually installed (screwed down, etc.) on the stock - or increase the rifle overall length with a welded-on bbl extension or a longer bbl.

bwiese
07-26-2007, 2:15 AM
If the Overall length law in CA required things to be permanently attached, then, unfortunately, ALL AKs and OLLs are now illegal. The buttstocks can easily be removed with tools, rendering them under 30" ...


Well, that's really a side issue.

A rifle without a buttstock is not a rifle as it cannot be intended to be shoulder fired, which is what the 12020 definition of 'rifle' requires.

To exploit matters in this manner, I would however put some kind of screwed-down cap on the area where the buttstock would have attached - to show that this is "not a defective rifle" and indeed a non-rifle long gun.

ar15barrels
07-26-2007, 9:01 AM
We all saw what the San Jose Police Dept did trying to remove swimmingpoolguy's fixed magazine - they used a sledeghammer (which certainly was an 11 CCR 5469(a) 'tool'!)

We did not ALL see this.
Please provide a link so that we can.

bwiese
07-26-2007, 9:50 AM
We did not ALL see this.
Please provide a link so that we can.

This happened back in Nov/Dec 2006 timeframe. Look under 'swimmingpoolguy'.

Basics: young guy in San Jose had a legally-constructed fixed-mag OLL rifle in his vehicle. Parents wigged out for some (for unjustifiable family/social) reason, cops called. Young guy gets full felony traffic stop, gun seized, arrested etc.

Dude was charged with AW possession and/or transport (can't remember).

Bails out and gets a young female attorney who appears to be quite tenacious. She and her investigator talk with xenophobe, I had a chat with her and gave her materials, and also had her talk with the nice folks at Trutanich-Michel.

It turns out the SJPD had used a sledghammer/mallet in an attempt to remove the fixed magazines. (Sorry, I wish I had a video!) I believe this was an attempt to render the rifle 'safe' (i.e, mag removed) in a rack rather than any investigation of fixed magazine attachment methods.

A few days later, charges were dropped. It appears that the SJPD's use of a 'tool' helped, as well as the existence of the proposed DOJ regulatory definition changes - which had just been rewritten again as of early November, and which in essence affirmed that the existing 'tool is required' definition stood.

bwiese
07-26-2007, 10:06 AM
We did not ALL see this.
Please provide a link so that we can.

This happened back in Nov/Dec 2006 timeframe, search under 'swimmingpoolguy'....

Basics: young guy in San Jose had a legally-constructed fixed-mag OLL rifle in his vehicle. Parents wigged out for some (for unjustifiable family/social) reason, cops called. Young guy gets full felony traffic stop, gun seized, arrested etc.

Dude was charged with AW possession and/or transport (can't remember).

Bails out and gets a young female attorney who appears to be quite tenacious. She and her investigator talk with xenophobe (who was working at San Jose Gun Exchange at the time) who inundated the investigator w/legal material. I too had a chat with her and gave her materials, and also had her talk with the nice folks at Trutanich-Michel.

It turns out the SJPD had used a sledghammer/mallet in an attempt to remove the fixed magazines. (Sorry, I wish I had a video - that'd be priceless!) I do believe this was an attempt to render the rifle 'safe' (i.e, mag removed) in a rack rather than any investigation of fixed magazine attachment methods.

A few days later, charges were dropped by DA. It appears that the SJPD's use of a 'tool' helped as well as the existence of the proposed DOJ regulatory definition changes - which had just been rewritten again as of early November, and which in essence affirmed that the existing 'tool is required' definition stood.

After filing of an LEGR, our friend got his rifle back.

theseacow
07-26-2007, 10:16 AM
"CA min. shotgun (of any type) length . . . . . . . . . . . 26""

Bill-

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that California did not have a shotgun OAL requirement, and because of that, we revert to the federal requirement of 26". Is that correct?

bwiese
07-26-2007, 10:27 AM
"CA min. shotgun (of any type) length . . . . . . . . . . . 26""

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that California did not have a shotgun OAL requirement, and because of that, we revert to the federal requirement of 26". Is that correct?

Nope.... one portion of CA's definition of term 'short-barreled shotgun' specifies that a firearm firing a shotgun shell and under 26" overall length is an SBS...

12020(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
...
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned
to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
...

theseacow
07-26-2007, 10:29 AM
Nope.... one portion of CA's definition of term 'short-barreled shotgun' specifies that a firearm firing a shotgun shell and under 26" overall length is an SBS...

12020(c)(1) As used in this section, a "short-barreled shotgun" means any of the following:
...
(B) A firearm which has an overall length of less than 26 inches and which is designed or redesigned
to fire a fixed shotgun shell.
...


thanks. I wasn't aware of that lil' guy.