PDA

View Full Version : Thinking of changing my AR into a precision setup...Need your opinions


proraptor
07-24-2007, 2:42 PM
First off I dont have enough money to just go out and buy another upper....I wish I did....

My AR15 looks like this right now:

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e335/pixiepark/IMG_3071.jpg

My AR in its current form is fun to shoot but I think Id like ti a lot more in a precision type build especially now that Im reloading.

So is it easier to just sell the whole upper and buy a precision upper? Or would it be easier to sell the barrel/micro gas block/rail/BUIS/Fake Can/Aimpojnt clone, Then buy the barrel, gas block, scope and mounts that I want? I kind of want to keep the CMMG upper and BCG as it matches my lower...

Ive been looking at pics of precision AR's lately and think I need to change mine over to one....I know I like the JP handguard and a magpul PRS but for everything else Im a little lost.

What barrel? Gas Block? If I do go through with this Ill be calling you Nate to help me build it!

Thanks for your help guys

wildcard
07-24-2007, 3:10 PM
I'd just sell the entire upper instead of parting it out. As for the parts for your new precision upper questions such as what gas block will depend on the barrel profile. You can't go wrong with the LaRue low profile gas blocks though. For the new rig, i'd buy it part by part instead of a completed upper unless you find exactly what you want of course. Do what i'm doing and build a 6.5 Grendel!

Upper:
Satern Barrel
Alexander Arms Bolt
LaRue Gas Block
RRA Receiver and Charging Handle
LMT Carrier
JP Tactical Compensator
Badger Ordinance Stabilizer Handguard
IOR 10X56 Illuminated Scope
LaRue Scope Base and Rings

Lower:
RRA Receiver
JP Trigger
Magpul 93B
Stag LPK
CProducts Magazine
ERGO Tactical Delux Grip with Palm Shelf

Yup.. costing me a pretty penny. I wonder if Randall at AR15Barrels.com would be interested in assembling this upper for me :) He did a great job with my first!

proraptor
07-24-2007, 3:32 PM
That handguard you are getting looks like a monorail from disneyland....LOL

Thats going to be one nice precision AR....Im not really looking into a different caliber other than .223 though...

rksimple
07-24-2007, 3:49 PM
I'd sell the upper complete and start from stratch. I went the way of the ADCO middy SPR. It has a WOA barrel and shoots pretty well. If I had it to do all over again, I'd probably spec out my parts around a Krieger (or equiv.) barrel put together by Randall. Depending on the trigger you already have, accuracy can really be improved by an upgrade in that department, too.

The Professional
07-24-2007, 3:54 PM
Let me know if you'll let that upper go. Kindly PM me.

Jicko
07-24-2007, 4:00 PM
First off I dont have enough money to just go out and buy another upper....I wish I did....

My AR15 looks like this right now:

What's the spec? Barrel length and twist....

Seems like a rifle length build....

I think, snapping a Leupold 3-9x scope on, and a bipod, you go yourself a precision rig...

proraptor
07-24-2007, 4:04 PM
What's the spec? Barrel length and twist....

Seems like a rifle length build....

I think, snapping a Leupold 3-9x scope on, and a bipod, you go yourself a precision rig...

Its a 16 inch CMMG midlength medcon barrel in 1/7....Id like to get something in the 20-24 inch range

PistolPete75
07-24-2007, 4:07 PM
I'd just sell the entire upper instead of parting it out. As for the parts for your new precision upper questions such as what gas block will depend on the barrel profile. You can't go wrong with the LaRue low profile gas blocks though. For the new rig, i'd buy it part by part instead of a completed upper unless you find exactly what you want of course. Do what i'm doing and build a 6.5 Grendel!

Upper:
Satern Barrel
Alexander Arms Bolt
LaRue Gas Block
RRA Receiver and Charging Handle
LMT Carrier
JP Tactical Compensator
Badger Ordinance Stabilizer Handguard
IOR 10X56 Illuminated Scope
LaRue Scope Base and Rings

Lower:
RRA Receiver
JP Trigger
Magpul 93B
Stag LPK
CProducts Magazine
ERGO Tactical Delux Grip with Palm Shelf

Yup.. costing me a pretty penny. I wonder if Randall at AR15Barrels.com would be interested in assembling this upper for me :) He did a great job with my first!

wow this build sounds really expensive. can't wait to check it out when you finish it.

PistolPete75
07-24-2007, 4:09 PM
Its a 16 inch CMMG midlength medcon barrel in 1/7....Id like to get something in the 20-24 inch range

even with a 24inch barrel, don't you think the barrel would heat up real fast and lose the tight groupings?

DJDace
07-24-2007, 4:10 PM
The unfortunate part is, most 24" precision Uppers are not on the cheap side. Between free-float handguards, Krieger/Wilson/WOA barrels, low-pro gas blocks, muzzle brakes etc they get pricey. I know my factory 24" upper was about $900 alone. Add in a $275 PRS stock and another $400-$900 for glass and precision AR's can be quite the investment.

On the other hand, since you already HAVE a great precision shooter in your Savage, you don't have to go with the best of the best names and the most top of the line options. You could, with a little shopping around, very likely upgrade your AR into a more than adequate precision rig for a reasonable price tag.

PistolPete75
07-24-2007, 4:14 PM
The unfortunate part is, most 24" precision Uppers are not on the cheap side. Between free-float handguards, Krieger/Wilson/WOA barrels, low-pro gas blocks, muzzle brakes etc they get pricey. I know my factory 24" upper was about $900 alone. Add in a $275 PRS stock and another $400-$900 for glass and precision AR's can be quite the investment.

On the other hand, since you already HAVE a great precision shooter in your Savage, you don't have to go with the best of the best names and the most top of the line options. You could, with a little shopping around, very likely upgrade your AR into a more than adequate precision rig for a reasonable price tag.

this is the exact reason why i went to bolt action. ar precisions builds are just way too expensive to achieve extreme accuracy. rather go with a custom bolt build, and make each shot count.

rksimple
07-24-2007, 4:15 PM
On the other hand, since you already HAVE a great precision shooter in your Savage, you don't have to go with the best of the best names and the most top of the line options. You could, with a little shopping around, very likely upgrade your AR into a more than adequate precision rig for a reasonable price tag.

Good point. I've seen guys with heavy barrel DPMS uppers shoot pretty darn good. And they can be had pretty cheap. Something to think about...

PistolPete75
07-24-2007, 4:19 PM
i don't know about you all, but i usually shoot what i like best. the others tend to sit around in the safe.

whatever you like to shoot, build one hell of a build and keep for a long time and shoot the hell out of it.

i've spent the last 6 months buying and selling stuff to see what i like the best. alot of time and money invested, but i figured out exactly what i like.

hope you find your path to "gun" heaven.

Jicko
07-24-2007, 4:20 PM
Its a 16 inch CMMG midlength medcon barrel in 1/7....Id like to get something in the 20-24 inch range

Actually, your setup can take you a LONG WAY... you can chrono your loads in this setup and just use JBM to figure out what's the difference.... in terminal velocity and bullet trajactory.

Since u have the 1/7, you can do heavy bullets.... the muzzle velocity will just be slower, which is not "the best".... but... I bet to 500 yards... what you have would not be TOO bad...

I have a 24" 1/9 ss heavy bull barrel upper, ff handguard etc, that i can trade you, if you want.... I have tested it, it can stablize 77gr Nosler very accurately. No stablization issue, so, I'm lucky! We can go shoot one time and you can tell me if you want that.... just hold onto what you have for now.... just get a bipod for it, you will need a bipod oneway or the other....

proraptor
07-24-2007, 4:21 PM
The unfortunate part is, most 24" precision Uppers are not on the cheap side. Between free-float handguards, Krieger/Wilson/WOA barrels, low-pro gas blocks, muzzle brakes etc they get pricey. I know my factory 24" upper was about $900 alone. Add in a $275 PRS stock and another $400-$900 for glass and precision AR's can be quite the investment.

On the other hand, since you already HAVE a great precision shooter in your Savage, you don't have to go with the best of the best names and the most top of the line options. You could, with a little shopping around, very likely upgrade your AR into a more than adequate precision rig for a reasonable price tag.

I have more in my upper right now than $900.....I have about $1200 into it....

PistolPete75
07-24-2007, 4:22 PM
i have an extra 6-9 harris bipod for sale.

ar15barrels
07-24-2007, 4:35 PM
I wonder if Randall at AR15Barrels.com would be interested in assembling this upper for me :) He did a great job with my first!

Of course.

ar15barrels
07-24-2007, 4:39 PM
Id like to get something in the 20-24 inch range

Bah, a 20" 1:8" twist barrel is the way.
You just don't gain enough with longer barrels to make it worth carrying around unless you were talking about a 17 Remington or 204 Ruger Varmint blaster.

ocabj
07-24-2007, 5:50 PM
What is a "precision AR15"?

proraptor
07-24-2007, 6:11 PM
What is a "precision AR15"?

Scoped, under MOA accuracy

shark92651
07-24-2007, 6:17 PM
I think you should sell your upper and buy a CMMG 20" MedCon uppers with a Midwest Industries low-profile gas block. I just happen to have a link to one I have in stock right here... :D
http://riflegear.com/pc-211-11-cmmg-20-medcon-low-profile-upper.aspx

ocabj
07-24-2007, 6:24 PM
I'd try the complete WOA match upper. It's designed for High Power match rifle category, but it should fit the 'precision' criteria. $672+shipping. Add your rings and scope and it's ready to shoot. Gives you a 26" stainless steel 1-7" barrel with a longer gas system to allow you to shoot slower burning powder more efficiently (ie: N540). I'd estimate you'd be able to push an 80gr out of one of these at 2900fps or higher without pressure problems.

aplinker
07-24-2007, 10:54 PM
First off I'm surprised your upper doesn't shoot better than sub-moa. I have a 14.5" that I finally did a grouping on and it was plugging 10 round groups at 1" sizes at 100yds. I don't bother carting targets out further, but it's just fine to ping the 400yd+ plates (with a 3X magnifier on an EOTech) with, too.

My $600 RRA 24" Wilson upper shoots better, though. If you want it to shoot straight that upper will do it. However it weighs more than my M1A SOCOM that gave me tendonitis. It's a beast. I'd highly encourage you to go 20" or less.

proraptor
07-25-2007, 7:08 AM
First off I'm surprised your upper doesn't shoot better than sub-moa. I have a 14.5" that I finally did a grouping on and it was plugging 10 round groups at 1" sizes at 100yds. I don't bother carting targets out further, but it's just fine to ping the 400yd+ plates (with a 3X magnifier on an EOTech) with, too.

My $600 RRA 24" Wilson upper shoots better, though. If you want it to shoot straight that upper will do it. However it weighs more than my M1A SOCOM that gave me tendonitis. It's a beast. I'd highly encourage you to go 20" or less.

The CMMG I have will shoot MOA easy....Not to mention I can hit metal targets out to 400 no problem at angeles with it......I guess I just want something scoped and I think it would look funny if I had a 16 inch scoped AR....

If a bull barreled upper wont shoot better than my CMMG then Ill just keep it....

Jicko
07-25-2007, 7:21 AM
You are now saying a 14.5" M4 with an ACOG looks *funny*?

:D

I think all these matters at the "long" ranges..... 500yds+....

Basically the slower the bullet is flying, the longer the flight time is, the more susceptible to wind it is, and the MORE drop it is per distance..... and the less consistant is the "calculations"....

So one would want to make the bullet flight's time "as short as" possible, hence, the muzzle velocity as high as possible. So the reduction is "muzzle velocity" basically increase the "inconsistancy" or "expectancy" of the bullet flight path at those longer ranges....

Therefore, if 2 rifles, one shorter and one longer, have identical MOA @ 100yds, their performance will be difference @ long ranges, say 600yds. The longer one will ALWAYS be better and more consistant than the shorter one, just due to the terminal velocities of round, and the drop and drift will be "more" consistant and expected.

You can look at it in a statistical point of view too... say the drop and drift at a certain distance would have a +/- percentage.... the larger the original number is, the more the actual +/- number will be. (ie. 100in drop +/- 5% = 5in; 200in drop +/- 5% = 10in)
So one would want to minimumize the original drop number, hence, you would want a higher velocity, reducing the flight time, reducing the drop amount, in the first place.

DJDace
07-25-2007, 8:38 AM
I have more in my upper right now than $900.....I have about $1200 into it....

Beleive me I know. My STOCK factory Upper for my AR build was over $900. That is before making any custom modifications and upgrades to personalize it to my needs.

All told my rifle was $2000. Add another $1000 for glass and for the amount I put into this AR-15 I could have build a VERY nice precision bolt action rifle.

xenophobe
07-25-2007, 8:38 AM
Why do you need help? I thought you were the king of accuracy? :rolleyes:

Okay, to qualify my "I'm always a jerk" attitude towards you (which you always kindly reciprocate)...

Are you looking strictly for a bench gun?

I personally would go with a WOA or CLE SPR profile in 1:8.

If you're looking for a nice middy with a standard FSB, I think that Denny still has some of the Chrome Lined Mike Rock 5r Operator barrels. Those should hit sub-moa.

As for gas block, pick what you like, it will not affect accuracy in any significant manner.

wildcard
07-25-2007, 8:45 AM
Why do you need help? I thought you were the king of accuracy? :rolleyes:

Haha. Back to that old argument. I say you two just go and settle this with a long range shoot :D Now who should I put $10 on..

proraptor
07-25-2007, 9:08 AM
Why do you need help? I thought you were the king of accuracy? :rolleyes:

Okay, to qualify my "I'm always a jerk" attitude towards you (which you always kindly reciprocate)...

Are you looking strictly for a bench gun?

I personally would go with a WOA or CLE SPR profile in 1:8.

If you're looking for a nice middy with a standard FSB, I think that Denny still has some of the Chrome Lined Mike Rock 5r Operator barrels. Those should hit sub-moa.

As for gas block, pick what you like, it will not affect accuracy in any significant manner.

If I do decide to do this it will be a bench gun....I just want accuracy and and not worried too much with weight....I want to shoot this thing at least 600 yards....Hence wanting the longer barrel....

Im not the king of accuracy and never claimed it.....I am however the king of shooting people I dont like when they least expect it.... :D

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 9:20 AM
I want to shoot this thing at least 600 yards....Hence wanting the longer barrel....

Get a 308 bolt gun.
I suggest a Remington 700.

If it must be semi-auto and mag fed, get an AR-10.

proraptor
07-25-2007, 9:21 AM
Get a 308 bolt gun.
I suggest a Remington 700.

If it must be semi-auto and mag fed, get an AR-10.

I have a Savage 10FP in .308

wildcard
07-25-2007, 9:22 AM
Get a 308 bolt gun.
I suggest a Remington 700.

If it must be semi-auto and mag fed, get an AR-10.

Uh oh.. now you've done it. You just suggested a Remington to Mr. Savage.

proraptor
07-25-2007, 9:26 AM
Maybe Im asking too much from the .223 round....Maybe Ill stick to my Savage for ranges 600+....An AR10 would be pretty cool to have...

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 9:27 AM
I have a Savage 10FP in .308

Good, then just use the right tool for the job.
There is NO AR-15 that's better than your 308 bolt gun at 600 yards.
So don't even waste the money trying to make one.

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 9:28 AM
Uh oh.. now you've done it. You just suggested a Remington to Mr. Savage.

Oh, he's one of those people...
Let me guess.
Lots of tasco scopes and wolf ammo too?

I better not show him the Remington 700 that I bought for $500.
Sendero 26" bull barrel.
HS Stock
HS bottom metal with removable mag.
Very well worked over stock trigger.
$250 worth of heavy duty bolt knob work.
Farrell's picatinny rail.

It was a personally owned SWAT sniper's gun that he sold when the department issued them new guns.
First time to the range, it shot sub 1/2 MOA at 110M with my friend's 165gr ballistic tip loads.

mltrading
07-25-2007, 9:28 AM
My opinion is, get a Tubb2000 or a JP complete rifle. :D

However, not everybody can afford that. The following list is my "poor man's precision AR" spec.

Upper:
(1) 18"-24" high quality barrel, inbetween medium contour and bull, don't flute.
For 18's, get mid-length gas tap. For 20's and up, get rifle-length gas tap.
(2) Free float HG.
(3) JP adjustable gas block (heavy one, not the micro one). Stainless one is even better.
(4) Standard BT/BC will work just fine.
(5) A good scope (whatever brand, as long as it works and holds zero).

Lower:
(1) The cheapest solution is to use RRA 2-stage NM trigger.
(2) A sturdy buttstock like A2 or Magpul PRS.


The other solution:
You may consider not to install the gas system to make it a "manual" AR. It gonna save the gas block and gas tube. All the gas goes to push the bullet and you won't have cycling problem since you cycle it manually.

The Professional
07-25-2007, 9:28 AM
Maybe Im asking too much from the .223 round....Maybe Ill stick to my Savage for ranges 600+....An AR10 would be pretty cool to have...


I'd suggest to get an AR-10 since you already have a bolt action... I have various bolt actions for the .308 caliber but my DPMS Tac-20 could run with the big boys. I just put a Timney Trigger on mine and it is a dream to shoot.

proraptor
07-25-2007, 9:30 AM
I think Im just getting bored with my AR15 configuration.....Its fun to shoot and everything but I think I atleast need a scope

PistolPete75
07-25-2007, 9:33 AM
Oh, he's one of those people...
Let me guess.
Lots of tasco scopes and wolf ammo too?

I better not show him the Remington 700 that I bought for $500.
Sendero 26" bull barrel.
HS Stock
HS bottom metal with removable mag.
Very well worked over stock trigger.
$250 worth of heavy duty bolt knob work.
Farrell's picatinny rail.

It was a personally owned SWAT sniper's gun that he sold when the department issued them new guns.
First time to the range, it shot sub 1/2 MOA at 110M with my friend's 165gr ballistic tip loads.


talk about a killer deal! wow!

proraptor
07-25-2007, 9:37 AM
Oh, he's one of those people...
Let me guess.
Lots of tasco scopes and wolf ammo too?

I better not show him the Remington 700 that I bought for $500.
Sendero 26" bull barrel.
HS Stock
HS bottom metal with removable mag.
Very well worked over stock trigger.
$250 worth of heavy duty bolt knob work.
Farrell's picatinny rail.

It was a personally owned SWAT sniper's gun that he sold when the department issued them new guns.
First time to the range, it shot sub 1/2 MOA at 110M with my friend's 165gr ballistic tip loads.

All that work to your remington and my savage still shoots as good if not better....lol

Jicko
07-25-2007, 9:40 AM
All that work to your remington and my savage still shoots as good if not better....lol

So, now, which department and which SWAT team uses a Savage? :D

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 9:41 AM
All that work to your remington and my savage still shoots as good if not better....lol

Did I forget to mention that I only shot ONE 5 shot group in a hurry to see if the barrel was worth keeping?

The gun was sold to me as a parts gun with a high round count barrel that's known to have a throat so long that you can't seat bullets into the lands and actually have them also seated in the case mouth.

I have a nice Douglas barrel sitting here that I have yet to install.
I want to do some real shooting with it how it is now to see if it's even worth swapping barrels out or not.

proraptor
07-25-2007, 9:51 AM
So, now, which department and which SWAT team uses a Savage? :D

I hope you are kidding....lol

Prc329
07-25-2007, 9:52 AM
Randall, come out to Angeles this weekend. I should be there saturday. We can compare my Savage/IOR combo with your 700 just for ****s and giggles.

Oh, nevermind I think I remember you saying you compete on the weekends.

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 9:55 AM
Randall, come out to Angeles this weekend. I should be there saturday. We can compare my Savage/IOR combo with your 700 just for ****s and giggles.

Oh, nevermind I think I remember you saying you compete on the weekends.

This weekend is 3gun.

I have not loaded amy ammo for the 700 yet, but I did clean up some brass yesterday and the dies are sitting on the bench.
Just need to get to work...

DJDace
07-25-2007, 9:56 AM
I think Im just getting bored with my AR15 configuration.....Its fun to shoot and everything but I think I atleast need a scope

Maybe a new 20" barrel, Harris benchrest bipod and an IOR 10X fixed power scope would do the trick?

After that you could look into putting a Magpul PRS Stock or a Command Arms Sniper Stock (w/ monopod) on it.

Would be a relatively simple little project for you to work on and build up over the next few months. It may help revitalize your interest in your AR-15 as well.

Other than that my opinion on this (and remember it's just an opinion) is that right now you are really into precision shooting. Small groups, long shots and getting the most outta your stick seems to be your passion right now. Why not focus on your Savage for that, and keep your AR-15 as a CQB Rifle so you have 2 separate tools. Either that or sell off the Upper and keep the lower and use the funds to improve your Savage as it's your real interest right now.

Just a thought.

Prc329
07-25-2007, 10:03 AM
Hey Tom, just stick with your current setup and just get a better stock/grip and keep the savage for the precision work. I actually sold what I considered my precision rig because the Savage takes priority.

Or better yet, sell the AK and buy some "real" glass for that savage.

Or something fun like an M1A/M14.

You can stick an Acog on your AR and do rather well with it (clones are reportedly real good if you can't afford a real one) or just build a 3 gun style gun off your CMMG. Kinda like my rifle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/naytwan/IMG_0074-1.jpg

Mute
07-25-2007, 11:09 AM
If you have a spending limit your best bet is to sell the current upper and buy another. If you want to build one, you need to purchase a few tools to assemble the upper. Add that into the cost and you're not going to save any money trying to covert your current upper.

proraptor
07-25-2007, 11:16 AM
nate said he has the tools to do it and would help me...

thanks nate....

Mute
07-25-2007, 11:31 AM
nate said he has the tools to do it and would help me...

thanks nate....

Well, then, have at it. It will be fun to put together your own upper.

RobG
07-25-2007, 11:45 AM
This is a great thread being that I was wanting to do the same thing. I went the cheapo route; took a Stag 2H upper, ground down the front sight, added rifle length FF Midwest tube (replaced the carbine length model I had), Harris bipod, and had at it. So yeah, its probably silly to scope a 16" set-up but, it will put 5 mags full into a quarter at 50 yds. with cheapo Remmy stuff. Gonna hit the 100 yd side tomorrow. I figure it will be good to 3-400 yds. Point being, your CMMG 1:7 upper would probably do better. Just add some glass and see.

aplinker
07-25-2007, 1:33 PM
Proraptor,

Honestly it sounds to me like the only thing you need to do is scope your AR. Your build might look a little abnormal with a scope, since you did the fake can, but so what? You can switch out the optic. One thing I've seen I actually think isn't a bad idea is to cowitness the aimpoint with a scope. Then you can pull the scope as needed and still use the red-dot.

You know as well as I do you don't really gain "accuracy" with a longer barrel as much as velocity. I think "precision" shooting at 600 with 223 is pushing it, no matter the barrel. However, I think you should be able to easily ping the 600yd stuff even with your 16".

If it's just looks you want, change the barrel for an 18" SS 1/8 and be done with it. Maybe a FH or brake to smooth it out in finish.

Jicko
07-25-2007, 1:43 PM
No matter how much I love my SPR.... an 18in is just gonna be an 18in..... don't imagine going from 16 to 18 and then you will have a "sniper", "match", "ultimate long range" AR.... you just won't

Your 16" would do fine.... for most stuff....

A 24" will always be "better".... once the drop and drift kicks in...

for the first couple hundred yards... up to 400ish, the drop wasn't significant one way or the other....

Fjold
07-25-2007, 2:08 PM
So yeah, its probably silly to scope a 16" set-up but, .

A good 16" barrel will outshoot 90% of the shooters using it. My daughters regularly shoot ground squirrels past 300 yards with this one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/Dressed.jpg

Stormfeather
07-25-2007, 3:26 PM
A good 16" barrel will outshoot 90% of the shooters using it.

:44: How true this is! :33:

proraptor
07-25-2007, 5:02 PM
that 16 setup with scope doesn't actually look that bad....maybe ill look into a scope

xenophobe
07-25-2007, 6:38 PM
I agree with you, but that's not a 16" barrel, that looks like a 24". :p

A good 16" barrel will outshoot 90% of the shooters using it. My daughters regularly shoot ground squirrels past 300 yards with this one.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/Dressed.jpg

ar15barrels
07-25-2007, 9:11 PM
I agree with you, but that's not a 16" barrel, that looks like a 24". :p

That's a 20" barrel with a railed gas block.
The front rest is sitting under the barrel which is incorrect.
It should be sitting under the handguard.