PDA

View Full Version : .223 Milsurp vs Match - Separating the wheat from the chaff


Stavros
07-24-2007, 12:17 PM
I had a great shooting weekend with my girlfriend and got to shoot up quite a bit of ammo at various ranges, and at different types of targets. We shot quite a variety of ammunition over the weekend like Guatemalan surplus, Radway Green, M855PD, Brown Bear, Federal GMM 69, and some Black hills 73gr berger.

I was able to shoot most of them for groups on paper at varying ranges, and got some scans of the targets made and uploaded. I didn't group the Brown bear or Guat, since it just just like the other surplus 2-4 MOA, and I used it all up shooting steel. I only have targets for the RORG, M855, BH and Federal.

The rifle is a 24" 1/8 twist AR, J&T Upper. I used a 4-16x50 scope. You can see the rifle here (http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/rifle.jpg)

This ammo review is going to seem very common sense, but I think some people will find the informations useful or interesting. As you will see I am using 10 round groups for the ammo analysis, anything less would be misleading. Anyways on to the targets.

This first set is fired from 100 yds.
Don't ask why I only shot 8 rounds on that left RORG group. As you can see match is about MOA and surplus is about double that.

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/5spot1.jpg

Here's one with some Black Hills- The first six rounds went into that big hole at the top, the rest expanded the .5" group to 1"

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/5spot2.jpg

This one here demonstrates why 3 round groups are utter crap. The top two targets I fired, and the bottom two my girlfriend shot. It is utter coincidence that we managed to shoot the same size 9 round groups, and then sub MOA 3 round groups with this milsurp ammo. You can see that the 9 round group demonstrates what the ammo really shoots, but the 3 rounder says that this stuff shoots sub MOA, which is not true at all. Some FUD shooter would handpick these two groups than go boast on the internet that his rifle shoots sub moa with milsurp.....but I digress

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/5spot3.jpg

Here are some more. WOOT a sub-MOA 10 round group

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/5spot4.jpg

The following targets were shot at 200yds

M855 Not too shaby almost hitting 2 MOA - Don't mind the 11th hole, my girlfriend thought it would be funny to shoot my target.

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/200yds1.jpg

Here is the other half of the Gold Medal Box. At $1 per round, I only shot one box. I was very impressed to say the least.

http://www.andysautosport.com/images/solstice/200yds2.jpg

So conclusions? Well its quite obvious, match ammo is well, match ammo and milsurp is just that. I am not banging on the milsurp, but I don't think I'll be sending any more down my precision rifle's tube anymore, unless I feel like plinking at 400 yd steel, which it will do quite well.

Grouping with milsurp is frustrating. It seems futile, grouping all over the place, and then randomly getting a good group size. With match ammo it is a delight that generates a sh*t eating grin.

Lastly I'd like to see less people using 3 round groups of their rifles accuracy, especially for AR's. Your mag holds at least 10 rounds, so why not shoot em all on target before you pull out the ruler. 3 rounds barely scratches the surface.

30Cal
07-24-2007, 12:28 PM
It just depends on what you need the rifle to do. If you're shooting 20rds on a target for score, then a testing via 3rd groups doesn't cut it. But if you're checking loads for a deer rifle, then it's just what the doctor ordered.

Ty

Stavros
07-24-2007, 1:29 PM
It just depends on what you need the rifle to do. If you're shooting 20rds on a target for score, then a testing via 3rd groups doesn't cut it. But if you're checking loads for a deer rifle, then it's just what the doctor ordered.

Ty

There is nothing wrong with shooting 3 round groups to get on target, I was merely stating that it is not a true representation of accuracy as by my own experiences, especially for factory plinking, or milsurp ammo.

I always read people posting their rifles being sub-moa with brand-x factory non-match ammo, and then see a modest .5" 3 round group on a single 100yd target. It means jack to me whether they or their rifle can actually shoot well. If they feel good about boasting about their skills, handpicking tight groups out of the load of crappy ones, thats fine, if it boosts their self esteem. None of that is really my business. The problem is when they actually believe their own lie and then have to eat crow, or make excuses in front of others to prove their claims.

I had a funny experience doing this to a friend and his father. They claimed their .308 Weatherby would shoot dimes with SA surplus, they even had a target in their shooting bag and all to prove this. So of course, over the weekend when we were shooting, I proposed a wager that at 200 yds my semi-AR with Black Hills will out shoot his Bolt Weatherby with SA .308 in 10 shots, and of course they agreed. They are a big supporter of bolt>semi. I don't know if they actually believed that their rifle would shoot as tight as they thought or not, but both my friend and his father could not even group remotely close to me, or even near the bullseye. Their dime groups claim at 100yds was more like minute of pie plate at 200 yds.

My buddy manned up and handed me his $20, but his father claimed that the scope was loose and didn't pay up at first! Lucky I went through a couple of my ammo cans to find some loose FGMM 168gr and then shot them into a "tighter than a virgin" pattern to earn my other $20.

The sad part is this is their hunting rifle and ammo choice! If they believe that their rifle shoots sub-moa 3 round groups, that is definietly going to hurt out in the field, where their actual accuracy is much less than they expect. That will lead to them taking higher risk shots with chances of missing or maiming, because they believe that they can shoot better than they actually can. I back this up with the knowledge that last season on his ranch property, my friends father shot and wounded a nicely sized buck. After 2 hours of searching he chalked it up *** a loss and gave up. We found the carcass of that deer, or whatever was left of it after the yotes and puma got to it, the following week after he shot it.

Eh, I just had to vent at the audacity of that old man! If your going to make a bet at least pay up when you lose, even if the bet is rigged lol!

Fjold
07-24-2007, 2:04 PM
Yep, one time at sub MOA does not make a submoa gun. Here's a work up target for 5 different loads in my 6.5x284 custom. That's a sub moa gun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/Fjold/DSC00276.jpg

OptionX3
07-24-2007, 8:48 PM
thank you, very helpful.

rksimple
07-24-2007, 9:32 PM
The targets tell the tale. Good shootin'.


I had a funny experience doing this to a friend and his father. They claimed their .308 Weatherby would shoot dimes with SA surplus, they even had a target in their shooting bag and all to prove this. So of course, over the weekend when we were shooting, I proposed a wager that at 200 yds my semi-AR with Black Hills will out shoot his Bolt Weatherby with SA .308 in 10 shots, and of course they agreed. They are a big supporter of bolt>semi. I don't know if they actually believed that their rifle would shoot as tight as they thought or not, but both my friend and his father could not even group remotely close to me, or even near the bullseye. Their dime groups claim at 100yds was more like minute of pie plate at 200 yds.


FWIW, I was at the range bangin' away with my 10fp when I notice a guy down the line shooting what looks like a Blaser. I went down to take a look and sure enough it was. He was running some kind of berdan primed 308 surplus through it and he asked if I wanted to shoot it. I couldn't turn down shooting a rifle I had never seen in person. So, long story short, I had all 5 rounds touching. He continued to do the same. I even asked if I could try 5 rounds of that ammo in my gun to see if it would group, but no luck; it gave me a 5 inch group or so. If I hadn't seen it and done it, I would've never believed it.

30Cal
07-25-2007, 8:09 AM
A good number of factory rifles won't shoot well past that point as they begin to heat up. 3 to 5 shots. If you shoot a 10rd group, you might be sorely dissappointed. That doesn't mean anything about how it'll do in the field though. If it consistantly shoots well for a handful of shots, that's all you need.

I take accuracy claims with a more than a couple grains of salt.

xenophobe
07-25-2007, 8:36 AM
Personally, I'm all for 20 round groups for determining the accuracy of any given load and the equipment you are using.

3 is definitely not enough to tell you anything other than "hey look at what I just did". And while it's nice for showing off, there is no real world use for a 3 shot group.

|-007-|
07-25-2007, 12:45 PM
Great post Stavros, it's really cool to compare ammunition side by side like that. 10 round groupings give me a much better idea of what I would expect to see when I go shooting. Thanks!