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View Full Version : M1a accuracy vs AR .308 ... upgrade stock or build AR ...


Scouter
07-22-2007, 10:09 PM
This question is for anyone who's got the MCS or JAE-100 on their m1a, does it help out with accuracy at all? Wanted to know how they compare to an AR in 308.

Opinions?



Thanks.

saki302
07-22-2007, 10:25 PM
I've got a true NM M1A, built according to the book, unitized gas band, smooth spring guide, steel glass bedding- the works, basically.

I also have an AW-papered AR-10 (armalite original).

The M1A turns in gropus 2-3X the size of the AR10. Meaning, it'a about a 1 MOA gun at best, maybe slightly less with handloads- the AR10 wuill shoot sub 1/2MOA all day long with loads it likes.

You have two things going against you with the M1A- barrel isn't free floated, gas piston/rod which must be glass smooth and consistent, and bedding which will wear over time.
The most accurate M14 money can buy is probably the M25 white feather- my buddy has one, and it wtill won't match my AR10(T) on a side by side shoot- it is close though, incredibly so for an M14.

The better stocks will help some, but there are still a lot of moving parts around the barrel. They will probably help more for ergonomics and heavier weight to make you shoot better :)

If it's a consolation, I still give the M14 an edge in reliability- it's a proven design which works well in the field. The AR10 is a great city/urban rifle- no forward assist, etc. Mine has never jammed, but I keep it clean, and haven't fired more than 150 rounds before cleaning. The way I fire mine, a fixed mag would really be no bother at all- I usually shoot with a 10 round mag off the bench. Then again, I use the 5 rounder most in the M1A, and top load :D

-Dave

FatKatMatt
07-22-2007, 10:36 PM
M1/M1A was never designed for target accuracy; it's a battle rifle and it fills that role admirably. Sure, you can make it into a target rifle, but I wager an AR-10 will be cheaper and more accurate in the long run.

ar15barrels
07-22-2007, 10:42 PM
The AR10 is a great city/urban rifle- no forward assist, etc. Mine has never jammed, but I keep it clean, and haven't fired more than 150 rounds before cleaning.

The DPMS 308's have a forward assist.

PIRATE14
07-22-2007, 10:46 PM
The DPMS 308's have a forward assist.

Not all but some.......but so far the carriers aren't notched.....

If you already have the M1A get the stock and buy a AR 308 as well....:chris:

BossHogg
07-22-2007, 11:46 PM
Its all about that SASS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCH8TSm_Wdg

C.G.
07-23-2007, 12:04 AM
The DPMS 308's have a forward assist.

I haven't found a need for a forward assist on the AR-10, although if they had a version with it I would probably get it, just in case.

Prc329
07-23-2007, 6:21 AM
I've been contemplating the same thing. M1A/M14 or an AR10. I am leaning toward a POF lower since it uses Ar15 parts kit. I am very close to pulling the trigger and just selling off a rifle to complete the build.

Scouter
07-23-2007, 8:15 AM
Not all but some.......but so far the carriers aren't notched.....

If you already have the M1A get the stock and buy a AR 308 as well....:chris:

Thanks Pirate, I just placed my order in for all three, the JAE100 in titanium grey, MCS with PRS stock and BUIS flip up sites and complete POF III lower.

It's a wrap, I'll find out about accuracy when they all get here I guess.

Be ordering the glass today after I finish these files in a minute, think I'll just do leupolds on them all since I can't figure out what to top them off with.

Prc329
07-23-2007, 8:34 AM
Ior :d

Scouter
07-23-2007, 8:38 AM
Ior :d

Ah yes, forgot about our conversation about the ior my friend, forgot to ask you how is mirage at 14x ... and does your ior have side focus?

Thanks!

Prc329
07-23-2007, 8:54 AM
It does have side focus. Not sure about mirage. I have shot from 100 to 600 with it and it tracked well and returned to zero fine. I used it Saturday and will probably be at angeles again this saturday with y little bro tagging the pig. The range at burro was guesstimated at 75 yards and I was on target coming down 2 clicks.

The scope impresses me everytime I shoot it.

capitol
07-23-2007, 10:09 AM
Thanks Pirate, I just placed my order in for all three, the JAE100 in titanium grey, MCS with PRS stock and BUIS flip up sites and complete POF III lower.

It's a wrap, I'll find out about accuracy when they all get here I guess.

Be ordering the glass today after I finish these files in a minute, think I'll just do leupolds on them all since I can't figure out what to top them off with.

Is there a wait time for the JAE-100 and if so, what is it?

Hoop
07-23-2007, 10:36 AM
Its all about that SASS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCH8TSm_Wdg

I'm swinging between building an AR 308 and buying a DSA FAL. The main thing keeping me from an AR setup is I have no clue what lower to get. I want to use DPMS uppers, but beyond that I don't know.

Fulton Armory I guess?

Prc329
07-23-2007, 10:50 AM
POF but you have to use a sleeve around the front pen according to CWS.

This thread has been a big help to me. I am going to sell two rifles that just take up space in my safe and build an AR10 off of a POF lower.

EricCartmann
07-23-2007, 11:00 AM
I've got a true NM M1A, built according to the book, unitized gas band, smooth spring guide, steel glass bedding- the works, basically.

I also have an AW-papered AR-10 (armalite original).

The M1A turns in gropus 2-3X the size of the AR10. Meaning, it'a about a 1 MOA gun at best, maybe slightly less with handloads- the AR10 wuill shoot sub 1/2MOA all day long with loads it likes.

You have two things going against you with the M1A- barrel isn't free floated, gas piston/rod which must be glass smooth and consistent, and bedding which will wear over time.
The most accurate M14 money can buy is probably the M25 white feather- my buddy has one, and it wtill won't match my AR10(T) on a side by side shoot- it is close though, incredibly so for an M14.

The better stocks will help some, but there are still a lot of moving parts around the barrel. They will probably help more for ergonomics and heavier weight to make you shoot better :)

If it's a consolation, I still give the M14 an edge in reliability- it's a proven design which works well in the field. The AR10 is a great city/urban rifle- no forward assist, etc. Mine has never jammed, but I keep it clean, and haven't fired more than 150 rounds before cleaning. The way I fire mine, a fixed mag would really be no bother at all- I usually shoot with a 10 round mag off the bench. Then again, I use the 5 rounder most in the M1A, and top load :D

-Dave

+1 on that. Go AR-10. M1A's/M14's are way over rated and are pretty much on their way out. Not only do you have to do a lot to get them to be accurate, at the end of the day they still will not be as accurate as an AR10 and you can have 3 AR-10's for the price of one really accurate M14.

M14's are:
- hard to scope
- scope mounts are hit and miss with Springfield Recievers
- you need a gun smith to put on a barrel.
- Stocks are also expensive, especially the designer ones.
- Unless you plan to get an LRB or Norinco/Polytech reciever, your barrel choices will also be limited as they nice GI barrels are also hit and miss with Springfields.

My M1A with a Marstar stock (which is free float), USGI bolt, gas block, oprod, and trigger. Barrel is NM Stainless from Springfield. As you can see it is accurate but the AR-10 is more accurate off the shelf. Also with an AR-10, you do not need a scope mount and you can get rails for it for cheap.

Here was my last range session with my M1A and an AR-10 from one of the members on the M14 forums. As you can see both of the rifles deliver about the same size groups but one took a hell of a lot of work and a lot more money (cough cough M1A).

AR-10, basically bone stock with some goodies, @ 100 yards with custom handloads
http://images25.fotki.com/v896/photos/9/932051/5089387/ar10halfmoa-vi.jpg

M1A with Marstar and all the goodies mentioned above, also at 100 yards and the same custom handloads.
http://images25.fotki.com/v904/photos/9/932051/5105831/M14ECmatch100yds-vi.jpg



Here are some pics of the 2 rifles used that day.

http://images26.fotki.com/v887/photos/9/932051/5089387/ar10close-vi.jpg

http://images22.fotki.com/v810/photos/9/932051/4822193/ECmk14-vi.jpg

capitol
07-23-2007, 11:09 AM
+M14's are:
- scope mounts are hit and miss with Springfield Recievers


No, I think it's more like SA receivers are hit and miss with scope mounts. It's the non mil spec SA receivers that are the problem and not the scope mounts.

saki302
07-23-2007, 11:44 AM
Looks like your Ar10 wants to shoot tighter groups- two are touching :)

-Dave

EricCartmann
07-23-2007, 12:01 PM
No, I think it's more like SA receivers are hit and miss with scope mounts. It's the non mil spec SA receivers that are the problem and not the scope mounts.

yep.. use whatever rhetoric you want.

Springfield recivers are way out of spec it is not even funny. I had all sorts of issues with my Springfield when it came in contact with stuff that was in spec.

Get a Polytech!

6079Winston
07-23-2007, 3:46 PM
Mounts for real M-14's are made to fit forged receivers and may not fit commercial receivers which are cast (Springfield, Fed Ord), since the castings are usually thicker to compensate for their reduced strength (compared to a forging). The military dealt with the problem of making super accurate M-14's for use as sniper rifles by developing the M-24 and M-40, relegating the M-14 to use as a DMR. While the AR in .308 is a more accurate platform as regards accuracy and maintaining zero, they have a spotty reputation for reliability, largely courtesy of Armalite in the late 90's. The M-14 has never had any reliability issues.

BossHogg
07-23-2007, 4:45 PM
While the AR in .308 is a more accurate platform as regards accuracy and maintaining zero, they have a spotty reputation for reliability, largely courtesy of Armalite in the late 90's. The M-14 has never had any reliability issues.

I doubt these new GAS PISTON POF AR-.308's will have reliability issuses nor have I heard anything bad about the DPMS LR-308 series.

C.G.
07-23-2007, 5:19 PM
I doubt these new GAS PISTON POF AR-.308's will have reliability issuses nor have I heard anything bad about the DPMS LR-308 series.

Time will tell on the POF and as reported on ARF.com the LR-308 sometimes short strokes when new and some will not feed SA well.

BossHogg
07-23-2007, 5:45 PM
Yeah I heard those short strokes were fixed after a gas tube redesign. As for steel ammo , any one who puts that in there near $3000 rifle deserves to have malfuntions. Even if it were to feed , over time you will ALLWAYS break the lip off extractors in ar-15 type bolts. Are the ar-308 extractors a thicker steel like ak's?

C.G.
07-23-2007, 5:48 PM
Yeah I heard those short strokes were fixed after a gas tube redesign. As for steel ammo , any one who puts that in there near $3000 rifle deserves to have malfuntions. Even if it were to feed , over time you will ALLWAYS break the lip off extractors in ar-15 type bolts. Are the ar-308 extractors a thicker steel like ak's?

SA is not steel, it is brass ammo.

BossHogg
07-23-2007, 6:02 PM
SA is not steel, it is brass ammo.

My mistake .... I thought you were abbreviating steel ammo

C.G.
07-23-2007, 6:09 PM
My mistake .... I thought you were abbreviating steel ammo

LOL, it actually stands for South African 7.62 surplus; decent surplus, but as one would expect it is berdan primed. Shoots well out of my FAL and AR-10.

EricCartmann
07-23-2007, 6:22 PM
Yeah I heard those short strokes were fixed after a gas tube redesign. As for steel ammo , any one who puts that in there near $3000 rifle deserves to have malfuntions. Even if it were to feed , over time you will ALLWAYS break the lip off extractors in ar-15 type bolts. Are the ar-308 extractors a thicker steel like ak's?


I am the opposite. I think the more expensive a gun is, it should shoot everything I feed it. Dolls are meant to be looked at but guns are meant to be used.

PIRATE14
07-23-2007, 6:34 PM
DPMS 308s choking on surplus ammo is a known quantity....we do have a guy that has over a 1000 rds on his DPMS 308 and it now shoots SA surplus:eek:

M-14 had a bunch of problems when they were first issued as w/ any rifle....M1, M-14, M-16.....etc,

The POF guys shoot Wolf out of the piston 308 since they figure it's the lowest common denominator.....we'll see:chris:

I do like that JAE stock but scope mounting on a M1A is trial and error....

EricCartmann
07-23-2007, 6:49 PM
I do like that JAE stock but scope mounting on a M1A is trial and error....

I don't like the idea that you have to pay $200-$300 just for the rights to mount a scope. Only after you buy the rights, then you are allowed to scope it.

BossHogg
07-23-2007, 6:59 PM
LOL, it actually stands for South African 7.62 surplus; decent surplus, but as one would expect it is berdan primed. Shoots well out of my FAL and AR-10.

Are they lead core? All the surplus I seem to find in .30 cal are steel core and can't use at my local ranges.

I am the opposite. I think the more expensive a gun is, it should shoot everything I feed it. Dolls are meant to be looked at but guns are meant to be used.

True, It probably should feed it. But I personaly would'nt want it to. Steel on steel is just a physics no no. Im sure you don't use steel rods, jags or brushes to clean that expensive gun. Not to metion dirty propellants that most steel ammo use.

EricCartmann
07-23-2007, 8:27 PM
True, It probably should feed it. But I personaly would'nt want it to. Steel on steel is just a physics no no. Im sure you don't use steel rods, jags or brushes to clean that expensive gun. Not to metion dirty propellants that most steel ammo use.

so you are telling me that physically all steel have the same hardness? Plastic is naturally softer than steel but it won't get off the residue as it is too soft, Copper is naturally softer then steel and it is hard enough to get off the residue. I am not a material engineer, but I am almost sure you can even manipulate steel to be just hard enough for casing, and yet still softer than brass.

don't you think it is a shame that a $300 AK can take unlimited steel case ammo but a $3000 gun cannot take even a couple hundreds?

All my guns earn the right to stay in my safe, I don't care if it is a $3000 gun, if it can't shoot any known good ammo (this includes steel case ammo) then it is not a gun worth a dam.

BossHogg
07-23-2007, 10:29 PM
Were talking about accurate close tolerance ar's and m1a's here. It would be hard to believe there is a match grade ar in that safe that feeds wolf of brown bear flawlessly all the time with no broken extractors.