Carrying a knife might bring criminal record

[Dump1567]

I posted this at Arfcom Home town, but figured it might serve as a heads-up over here. Same article could have been written about gun laws.

http://www.ocregister.com/news/knife-legal-cases-1781732-ramos-illegal

Carrying a knife might bring criminal record
People can end up charged with crimes for possessing legal knives, defense attorneys and experts say.
By RACHANEE SRISAVASDI
The Orange County Register

Miguel Angel Ramos bought a silver folding knife at a kiosk at The Block at Orange in November, thinking it was legal. It wasn't – at least to police.

The teen, pulled over for speeding in the parking lot 20 minutes later, was arrested. He was later found guilty for carrying a switchblade.

Ramos has no criminal record in Orange County other than two driving violations. The conviction cost the mechanic his job. His boss fired him after finding out about the case.

"I felt cheated. I thought it was legit to buy the knife," said Ramos, 19, who lives in Corona. "Now I have a misdemeanor on my record."

Defense attorneys and experts say Ramos' case is among those that show local law enforcement is confused over which knives are legal and illegal in California – sometimes resulting in questionable convictions and dismissals.

"The message is don't buy a knife, because even if it's legal or not, you'll be arrested and can wind up with a criminal conviction," Deputy Public Defender Denise Crawford said.

Prosecutors have charged more than 145 adults this year for possessing a switchblade. Of 145 cases filed until approximately June 11, 76 defendants pleaded guilty while 14 cases were dismissed, according to an analysis by The Orange County Register. Six of the 14 dismissals happened when the defendant pleaded guilty to more serious charges. Other cases are pending.

State law is confusing regarding which knives are legal. The statute that defines legal and illegal switchblade knives – 653k of the Penal Code – has been amended at least three times in recent years.

Legal and illegal knives appear very similar, but the statute spells out what is a legal blade by specific characteristics. Legal blades include ones that tend to snap closed or have a "thumb stud" – a piece of metal on a knife that helps open a blade.

One problem is that police and prosecutors aren't very familiar with the statute, experts say.

"You can't fault law enforcement for not reading the entire law code, but they have the same responsibility that citizens do, and it's to know the law," said Bernard Levine, an Oregon-based knife expert who specializes in criminal cases.

David Kowalski, communication coordinator for the nonprofit American Knife and Tool Institute, said Orange County's problems happen nationally because states differ regarding what kind of knives are legal and illegal.

For example, Kowalski said, about 25 states have statutes regarding allowable lengths of blades – legal blades range from 2 to 5 inches, depending on the state.

He said he recently got a call from a man who was arrested in New York for carrying a knife that was legal in California.

"Be very careful about what kind of knife you carry … because the knife – legal or not – can be used to charge you with a crime," Kowalski said. "As we know, all too often, it's very difficult to prove your innocence and it can be very costly."



Orange County prosecutors say they only pursue criminal charges if a knife is an illegal weapon. But they do admit instances in which they dismissed cases – such as the case against Steven Patrick Johnson.

Three months after Ramos' arrest, Johnson was stopped at The Block and asked if he had any weapons. Johnson replied yes, and showed them his metal folding knife that has a thumb tab.

Though Johnson insisted the knife was legal, like Ramos, he was arrested. Lacking money for bail, Johnson sat in jail for 24 days. Just before his June 18 trial, a prosecutor learned the defense attorney was investigating whether the knife was illegal and dropped the case. Johnson, 24, was let out of Orange County Jail.

"We couldn't prove it was an illegal knife, so we dropped the case," said district attorney spokeswoman Farrah Emami, adding that the knife had characteristics, such as a thumb stud, that made it hard to determine if the knife was illegal.

Johnson, who lives in Anaheim, said he was unhappy with going to jail "for nothing."

"They assumed a perfectly legal pocket knife was a switchblade," he added.

Ronald Clark, a knife maker based in Corona who has given expert testimony in local criminal knife cases, said approximately 45 other cases besides Johnson's have been dismissed in Orange County in the past few years. The District Attorney's Office could not confirm the dismissals.

"Prosecutors look at the police report, and go for the throat on this by filing these cases, regardless of the fact if the knife is legal or not," Clark said.

Emami said prosecutors don't just file the cases based on a police report, but look at weapons and other evidence when considering charges.

"Prosecutors and officers have nothing to gain from convicting innocent people," Emami said.

Sometimes, though, you can be convicted if you carry a legal knife that is broken – as happened to Christopher John Ricci.

The 19-year-old was arrested in April – again by Orange police at The Block -- for possessing a switchblade knife. Ricci carried a Schrade Badger pocket knife – which is legal in California. But, prosecutors say, they charged Ricci because they thought his knife was illegal since it was broken and was missing a thumb stud. Ricci's defense attorney, Crawford, maintains the knife is legal.

Even if the knife is legitimate, Ricci decided against fighting the case. He ended up spending 60 days in jail waiting for trial – and decided to plead guilty in June to get a 30-day sentence. He was set free from jail immediately given the time he already spent in custody.

The Orange Police Department handled the arrests of Ramos, Johnson and Ricci. Sgt. Dan Adams said officers are trained at academy and again by field training officers to recognize legal vs. illegal knives.

"(The law) can be confusing," Adams said. "There may be cases here and there in which the knife was really legal, but all in all, we act on good faith when we arrest people for the crime."

In Ramos' case, the knife was presented at trial, with the prosecutor and defense attorney disagreeing if the blade was legal or not. They left the question up to a jury, which handed down a conviction in May.

The business where Ramos bought the knife, OC Engravers, no longer sells knives. Manager Sam Arbani said the business stopped selling knives a few months ago after the owner of the entertainment center was asked to stop selling weapons – legal or not.

Ramos was sentenced to 30 days in jail. Instead of doing time, he was allowed to perform community service. He also got three years of probation.

Crawford, his defense attorney, has appealed the conviction. She's convinced the knife is legal.



Contact the writer: 714-834-3773 or rsrisavasdi@ocregister.com

[.22guy]

They'll be banning knives next. I can see things moving slowly in that direction. It will be something like, "You can own them, but if you take it out of your house you'll be arrested and charged."

And of course, all criminals will be abide by the new anti-knife legislation. (sarcasm)

[M. Sage]

I've been told that a certail LEO in this area likes to brag about how he'll bust anyone he finds with an assisted-open knife with possession of a switchblade, despite the fact that he knows better.

Screw 'em. I carry assisted-open. I'm not going to stop.

I want to know, when his knife was legal, how did he wind up convicted!? Was his lawyer that bad!? I think I could successfully defend myself from charges that my Kershaw is a switchblade.

[Pulsar]

It bugs me that they call a knife a weapon. I don't know about you guys, but I use my knife every day as a tool, cutting open packages, digging dirt from under my nails, a simple prying tool, letter opener, and in desperate situations, a shaver (I keep it that sharp at all times). I can honestly say, I would probably never use my pocket knife as a weapon, it just doesn't have a handle good for fighting, if I were to try and stab someone or do a slicing attack I would probably cut my hand up, very badly considering how sharp I keep it. I'd rather use my bare hands to defend my self than my knife.

[MrTuffPaws]

Sounds like the guy's lawyer sucked balls.

In the meantime, I will continue to carry my thumb stud enabled buck.

[M. Sage]

I'd use mine as a weapon in a desperate situation, but for the most part it sees use as a tool.

That's why I've got the semi-serrated blade, and why I've had it replaced five times under Kershaw's lifetime warranty. :D

I'm pretty sure that a black knife appearing in my hand would make a decent deterrent if someone was going to attack me.

[Pappy91W]

Like there is no crime in the fine county of Orange where cops have nothing better to do than arrest law abiding citizens for having legal pocket knives pursuant to a traffic stop.

COP: Sir, do you kno whow fast you were driving?
YOU: How fast do you think I was going?
COP: Do you have any weapons on you?
YOU: No, just a legal folding pocketknife.
COP: Ok, you're under arrest. Get out of the car, turn around and put your hands behind your back.
YOU: What did I do?
COP: Shut up scumbag, only bad guys carry pocket knives.

Nice...

The correct answer to: "Do you have any weapons"?
YOU: "NO".

A pocket knife is a TOOL, not a weapon when you are asked THAT question.

[Dump1567]

What bothers me is that people are sitting in jail over a knife that may be legal. What's the bail scheme on something this silly? Shouldn't this be an OR release and a report sent to the DA?

And you wonder why there's overcrowding.:rolleyes:

If my lock breaks on my folder it's suddenly a switch blade?:eek:

[M. Sage]

No, the lock only locks it open, not closed.

[jarios]

"(The law) can be confusing," Adams said. "There may be cases here and there in which the knife was really legal, but all in all, we act on good faith when we arrest people for the crime."

This is nonsense, maybe this sargeant and the prosecutor involved in these cases should be arrested or placed on unpaid leave in "good faith" for a few months pending an investigation as to whether they violated anybody's rights with this absurd interpretation of the law.

As always, don't these governmental cretins have anything better to do with their time?? I will keep carrying my legal tool. After all, if I'm not hurting anybody with it, what is it their business? I'd hate to see the day when we are not liable for our own safety and have to rely on the state. Oh wait....

[Richie Rich]

Sheesh.

I carry a knife every day. Either a simple utility folder razor knife or a Kershaw Ken Onion. I NEED to carry a knife as part of my job, it is an often used tool in my trade.

Given the change in the way the laws are being perceived and the complete BS that is "we don't care if it is legal, you will still be arrested and charged" attitude that the LEOs and the DAs office put forth I will no longer carry a knife when I am not on a jobsite.

Nice to know you can be arrested, jailed, charged and convicted of a non crime. Or forced to spend thousands defending yourself against the charges of a non crime.. I dunno about you guys, I cannot afford to be arrested, have my truck impounded, spend time in jail (missing work) post bail and spend a ton of money in legal bills.

End of my day at work my knives will come out of my pocket and into my toolbag that I will make sure is locked in the back of my truck.

If carrying a knife is considered posessing a deadly weapon, I could imagine that the DAs office would think my sawzall with a 12in long demo blade on it is a friggin WMD.

[Dump1567]

No, the lock only locks it open, not closed.

But if the lock breaks and you can flick it open? (I'm referring to the standard lock backs.)

[Spiggy]

and that's why I dont go to The Block in Orange

:/ I have to carry two, one has the screwdriver

[Rob P.]

Did anyone notice that most (if not all) of these arrests were made at The Block?

What's up wit dat?

[kilword]

gotta love the arrest them all and let the "law" sort them out mentality.

[pnkssbtz]

I live 3 blocks from this police station. I think I should WRITE up a letter and send it over to them informing them of what is legal and what is not...

[JALLEN]

gotta love the arrest them all and let the "law" sort them out mentality.

Less than a generation ago, the prevailing mentality was "The King can do no wrong." Now we seem to be ever closer to the reality that "The King will do no right!"

[ke6guj]

Wow, I wonder what they would do when they see my real and legal 1.9 inch switchblade knife? Only switchblades 2 inches or more are regulated by 653k.

653k: Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.

[Charliegone]

Can't people just seek civil action against these rather, aggressive actions by the DA? Making a big deal out of a pocket knife...now I've seen it all...well maybe not.:(

[USMC_2651_E5]

From the article:
Legal and illegal knives appear very similar, but the statute spells out what is a legal blade by specific characteristics. Legal blades include ones that tend to snap closed or have a "thumb stud" – a piece of metal on a knife that helps open a blade.

From the Penal Code:
"Switchblade knife" does not
include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure
applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to
the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism
that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade,
or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.


Don't put all your faith in this author, he cant even get the facts right. A thumb stud is only legal if there is a mechanism that provides resistance against the blade to keep it closed.

[GunOwner]

further, beware that over time your knife may become loose from use and while you couldn't flick it open with one hand when new - it may be easily done now - that seems to be the focus of 653(k) if you can flick it open with one hand they may ruin your day over it. I'll carry my short sigarms multipurpose knife from now on - I may not successfully defend myself with it but I bet I'll leave some DNA to use to apprehend the assailant. I for one think the law suck but I'm not a LEO or prosecutor - FWIW YMMV.

p.s. Thanks for this post I had know idea such a law existed and had a Big 5 thumb flick open folding knife (probably legal) in my glove compartment for emergencies that I have now removed to avoid a ridiculous arrest.

[ke6guj]

p.s. Thanks for this post I had know idea such a law existed and had a Big 5 thumb flick open folding knife (probably legal) in my glove compartment for emergencies that I have now removed to avoid a ridiculous arrest.

You should be able to put in the trunk and be OK. 653k says "Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
<snip>
For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein. "

[saki302]

I think as long as it has 'a propensity to remain closed' or somesuch legalese garbage, it's okay. Which means, the blade tends to spring shut, or will suck itself shut when moved towards the closed position.

Flicking a blade open being illegal is nonsense. I can flick open almost ANY knife (swiss army and some Buck models excepted), just takes the right technique and wrist snap. Even some spydercos a buddy or two thought couldn't be done :)

-Dave

[uclaplinker]

provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

This is key. It has to have a bias to close. If you touch the blade itself to open, regardless of whether it's assisted, and it has a way to bias toward being closed, you're just fine.

Bias toward closed means that when you get close to closing the knife is "snaps" closed by itself.

[Bishop]

The knife laws are (legally) retarded for a number of reasons I've gone into before. (aside from the fact that there are laws preventing a man from carrying the oldest tool in history)

It's been said before, but the important thing is that you don't regard your knife as a weapon, and NEVER refer to it as a weapon. I carry a knife everywhere (except courthouses, those guys have sticky fingers), and have only been asked about my knife by a cop once, he tried to get me to answer that under some circumstance I might use my knife as a weapon for self defense. I refused, and insisted that my knife was a tool and could never be used as a weapon.

[Top Cat]

The statute states that if a knife has a stud, or can be opened with thumb pressure, and also has either a detent or bias, or some "other mechanism", then it is not a switchblade, and is not illegal to carry openly.

I have some knives that have a ball detent in the side of the blade to resist opening. The Bias type knives tend to have a backbone type lock. Another brand has neither of these, but does have a very thin nylon washer between the handle and the blade, and most knives have a screw and nut through the blade and handle that will allow adjustment of the tension on the blade...sounds like "other mechanism" to me, but is not clearly obvious as the others. Be sure that a knife like this will not fail the "flip" test.

I am not sure what the legal definition of a "flip" is, but I am sure the word "flip" can mean different things to different people. The statute is very carefully worded, so if a knife appears to be questionable, I would suggest insisting that the strict statute definition of "a flip of the wrist" be properly applied during any adversarial field test or courtroom test of the knife, meaning that any such "flip" test should disallow any demonstration that would involve any simultaneous forearm or upper arm movement.

Try the flip test with your current folder with your forearm placed on a table with only your wrist free to "flip", and see if it can be flipped open. If it can be, and doesn't have a distinctively visible mechanical detent or bias, consider tightening the blade screw until it won't flip open, or buy a knife that does have a visible detent or bias, and carry that one.... it will be cheaper in the long run.

TC

[triggerhappy]

further, beware that over time your knife may become loose from use and while you couldn't flick it open with one hand when new - it may be easily done now - that seems to be the focus of 653(k) if you can flick it open with one hand they may ruin your day over it. I'll carry my short sigarms multipurpose knife from now on - I may not successfully defend myself with it but I bet I'll leave some DNA to use to apprehend the assailant. I for one think the law suck but I'm not a LEO or prosecutor - FWIW YMMV.

p.s. Thanks for this post I had know idea such a law existed and had a Big 5 thumb flick open folding knife (probably legal) in my glove compartment for emergencies that I have now removed to avoid a ridiculous arrest.

Man, I can do this with my wife's new S and W folder. Kinda hurts the wrist, but it works. For what it's worth, this is why a carry either a Camillus, or a Kabar. No folding, no prob...

I second that opinion that says knife laws are retarded-kind of like the other million-plus laws we are subjugated under :(

[PIRATE14]

Sounds like the guy's lawyer sucked balls.

In the meantime, I will continue to carry my thumb stud enabled buck.

Well it sounds like they went w/ a Jury trial............okay if the DA and the police can't get it straight....do you think a bunch of soccer moms will:confused:

Prob should go w/ a judge in these type of cases.......?????

[Buddydog]

Okay, I've bought gas and food down in Orange County which means I have helped pay for prosecutors to try these cases. Never again will I stop down there for anything! I'll bring a gas can and a can of Veinna Sausages on my way through that hole.

F-Tards are set on making it illegal for one to protect themselves. I am ready to move the hell out of this state simply over crap like this. It is clear to me that even when we vote our reps don't really care what we say in most cases.

Rant closed.

Bud

[Scouter]

Okay, I've bought gas and food down in Orange County which means I have helped pay for prosecutors to try these cases. Never again will I stop down there for anything! I'll bring a gas can and a can of Veinna Sausages on my way through that hole.

F-Tards are set on making it illegal for one to protect themselves. I am ready to move the hell out of this state simply over crap like this. It is clear to me that even when we vote our reps don't really care what we say in most cases.

Rant closed.

Bud

I'm with you on that, there isn't one day that goes by I don't think about moving somewhere else, not one day.

Hell I'm sure I could just have my office fax me all my paperwork and do everything from the other state, damn near everything is handled by email phone and fax now anyways, then I wouldn't have to deal with the idiocy of this state.

[MaceWindu]

You can't fault law enforcement for not reading the entire law code, but they have the same responsibility that citizens do, and it's to know the law," said Bernard Levine, an Oregon-based knife expert who specializes in criminal cases.

So law enforcement should not know the law? :confused:

Mace

[lazuris]

A few things about the article.

1. The block is a dump and its full of wanna be gang bangers, highschool kids, and general trash. Its not a "family" place from my experence but a place for a bunch of kids to hang out.
2. I never thought a knife was a weapon. Its a tool and used by me every day to do my job.

[Dump1567]

A few things about the article.

1. The block is a dump and its full of wanna be gang bangers, highschool kids, and general trash. Its not a "family" place from my experence but a place for a bunch of kids to hang out.


Not to mention it's accross the street from a maximum security jail (Theo Lacy).

[tiki]

"As we know, all too often, it's very difficult to prove your innocence and it can be very costly."

It's supposed to be innocent until proven guilty.

[.50DE]

A few things about the article.

1. The block is a dump and its full of wanna be gang bangers, highschool kids, and general trash. Its not a "family" place from my experence but a place for a bunch of kids to hang out.
2. I never thought a knife was a weapon. Its a tool and used by me every day to do my job.

wow, thanks man, I go shopping there with my wife during her lunch break.

I agree that LEO's get confused when it comes to knives. Since 96 I have always carried a spider Co police model. I have lost track of how many times I have been given crap over it * the blade cant be wider than your hand* That never holds water when I explain that no two ppl have the same size hand, and often mine dwarfs theres.

Agreed also about stating no to the weapon question. Once you say yes to any weapon question, the chance of having a rational conversation with a leo stops, as the go into a completely diffrent mindset, what I like to call *attack dog mode*

The *no officer i dont have a weapon*

However, I do carry a tool. works alot better.

basically its total BS. we are required to know all the law, they are only required to have a basic understanding. Well that often flawed, or uninformed information lands alot of people in jail that dont belong.

[kap]

I think the main problem with this knife issue and all the firearm issues we talk about on the forum is that mere possession of a weapon should not be considered illegal. That is the point at which law-abiding citizens get turned into criminals.

Regardless, the article is a misleading scare tactic. Just read this instead ... Legislative intent was not to make all knives borderline or outright "switchblades'.

http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html#SECTION%20ONE

Until this year, Penal Code 653k was easier to understand. The requirement that the knife has a "detent or bias towards closure" is the trickiest bit, added effective 1/1/2002.

First, what are those?

A "bias towards closure" means that as you close the knife, very slowly and gently, the blade will be "sucked into the grip" during the last bit of travel.

A "detent" means that when closed, the knife wants to stay that way because there's a ball bearing dimple pressing into a matching tiny socket in the blade, or there's some other mechanism that makes travel "stiffer" for the first short period of blade travel from closed to open.

Presence of either one of these, to ANY degree, means it's not a switchblade even if it's possible to "snap the knife open".

How do I know that?

Last year, a bill known as SB274 passed, which added the "detent or bias towards closure" language. At the Assembly Safety Committee hearing, several pro-self defense folks (myself, Nadja Adolf, Jason Davidoff) were there to complain about the idea that any knife that could be "flicked open" would be banned - as was originally in the statement of legislative intent prepared by the state DA's association.

To demonstrate the "point", I displayed a selection of high quality knives, and explained that simply by nature of their quality, they can be snapped open. Asking permission of the kindly old lady sitting next to me first, I demonstrated by snapping open a Chris Reeves Sebenza worth about $250, and laid it on table as I spoke. I managed to avoid freaking anybody out, and explained that the bill ran the risk of declaring hundreds of thousands of state residents felons.

It's a good thing I was polite to the lady - she turned out to be State Senator Karnette, author of the bill <GRIN>.

After that meeting, the bill continued on track, but Senator Karnette listened, and wrote a new statement of legislative intent! Because it was crafted after the DA association letter, and because it was written by the bill's author, it overrides all other memos on the bill's intent.

Without further ado, here's the memo:

Published in the July 18, 2001 edition of the Senate Daily Journal on page 2070.

DRAFT - LETTER TO THE SENATE DAILY JOURNAL

July 5, 2001

Mr. Gregory Schmidt
Secretary of the Senate

Dear Greg:

The purpose of this letter is to express the Legislature’s intent in enacting my SB 274, which makes amendments to Penal Code Section 653k.

Section 653k makes it a misdemeanor to make, sell or possess upon one’s person a switchblade in California. The statute was enacted in 1957 and provides a length definition of a switchblade knife. In 1996, AB 3314 (Ch. 1054) an exemption was created for one-handed folding knives. Recently, there has been concern that the language of the exemption is broadly read to apply to knives that are essentially switchblades, but are designed to fall under the language of the exemption.

In order to ensure that only legitimate one-handed opening knives are covered, SB 274 narrows the language to only allow knives to fall under the exemption from the switchblade law if that one-handed opening knife contains a detent or similar mechanism. Such mechanisms ensure there is a measure of resistance (no matter how slight) that prevents the knife from being easily opened with a flick of the wrist. Moreover, a detent or other mechanism is prudent and a matter of public safety as it will ensure that a blade will not inadvertently come open.

Although some one-handed opening knives can be opened with a strong flick of the wrist, so long as they contact a detent or similar mechanism that provides some resistance to opening the knife, then the exemption is triggered. These knives serve an important utility to many knife users, as well as firefighters, EMT personnel, hunters, fishermen, and others utilize one-handed opening knives.

The exemption created in 1996 was designed to decriminalize the legitimate use of these extremely functional tools by law-abiding citizens. SB 274 is not intended to interfere with those knife owners and users. The amendments to Section 653k accomplish this important purpose by establishing more objective criteria for determining whether a knife meets the intended exemption to the switchblade law.

Sincerely,
BETTY KARNETTE
Senator, 27th District

Nowhere in PC653k is there a length limit. My daily-carry folder has a blade 5.45" long.

What if your knife has neither a detent or bias towards closure? If it has an adjustable pivot tension screw, tighten it until it cannot be "flicked" open, and seal it with Blue Locktite. Otherwise, it could unscrew in your pocket and turn itself into a felony possession bust. God, I wish I was kidding. If there's no variable tension screw, then it's a $5 to $10 piece of crap from Pakistan or Taiwan - junk it and get a real knife :).

[.50DE]

that might be worth printing and keeping in a wallet to help educate a poorly informed LEO.

[virulosity]

I'm glad fixed knives are legal. I always make sure I carry my USMC survival knife anytime I go shopping at the mall...
its a good carjacking deterent when you wear it from a shoulder holster.

[virulosity]

^ kidding

[saki302]

I love the width-of-the-hand rule. That allows me something like a 5" blade :D

I've heard that before too, but seen nothing about it anywhere in written law.

-Dave

[Piper]

Geez, I can't believe how anal LEO's have gotten since I've been out. And I couldn't begin to tell you how many good law abiding people I knew who carried switch blades as a convenient tool. I'm talking about the spring loaded, button activated type. 653k is another one of POS feel good laws that politicians passed in the 50's because they didn't like the type who carried them. How hard is it to understand that you arrest the person for their illegal actions, not because they have an inanimate object. I'd like to see them arrest me for my 72" walking stick.

[Sniper3142]

I carry a knife (multi-tool actually) every day.

AND I WILL CONTINUE TO!!!!

I'm going to the Block @ Orange tomorrow (or maybe tonight) and if ANY LE officer is stupid enough to try and arrest me for a LEGAL knife...

:(

I have a lawyer on speed dial.

:)

I spend over a decade serving in the USMC and crap like this really pisses me off. It's a clear abuse of power.

I'm going to try and verify if this is actually what is happening by talking to some cops @ the Block. If they answer that knifes of any type are frowned upon and that they've been given instructions to... strongly suggest that no one carries a bladed device, then TOO DAMN BAD FOR THEM.

[thomasanelson]

And to think: I used to carry a Syderco Delica on commercial flights both domestic and international prior to 911. The screeners would see it, open it and just say, "OK".

[M. Sage]

I think the main problem with this knife issue and all the firearm issues we talk about on the forum is that mere possession of a weapon should not be considered illegal.

That kind of law is called "malum prohibitum. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum)" It literally translates as "wrong because prohibited." Or "it's wrong because we say it is!" It's the name for any crime that has no injured party.

IMO, these kinds of law are never good.

[pnkssbtz]

I just called Orange County PD, which I believe is the PD that services the Block (I could be wrong):

Orange Police Department (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1107+N.+Batavia,Orange,+CA+92867&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=42.360237,65.214844&ie=UTF8&ll=33.791132,-117.873602&spn=0.043583,0.063686&z=14&om=1)

1107 N. Batavia
Orange, CA 92867


At first, the person at the desk when I explained my question was apprehensive, and said he better forward me to someone who knows the laws more clearly so that I can get an accurate explanation. To which I was transfered to a Lieutenant (couldn't remember is name someone came up to my desk and started bugging me while I was on the phone) and he was very polite and cordial and answered my questions.

I asked him what the current legalities of carrying knives were in Orange County.

The officer articulated very clearly what the department policy defined as legal and what is not.



I was told any knife that could be open simply by flicking the wrist, or opened fully by the release of a mechanical device was illegal.

I then asked him if those were classified as a gravity knife and switch blade, respectively and he said yes.

I then asked him about assisted opening knives, such as a knife with a mechanical resistance that must be overcome, but once overcame would extend the blade to a full open position, and he repeated the definition of a switch blade to me.

"Any knife that opens by the means of a mechanical device was illegal."

I then asked him about knives with studs that assisted one from opening the blade, and he stated that so long as I manually open the blade, it was not a switchblade or a gravity knife.


So there you have it. Orange County PD's understanding of assisted opening knives is incorrect.


PC 653

Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.

For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.

So it looks like Orange PD read the first part of the sentence, but didn't finish to the end.


However upon further review, I do not believe the following Kershaw knife is legal because in the assisted opening of the blade does not require one to touch the blade in any way, and doesn't consistently bias towards the closed position. (If its level and you press the handle to activate the cam it opens but depending which way you tilt changes whether it opens or not.)

http://www.kershawknives.com/productdetails.php?id=14

http://www.toyokuni.net/aa_images/facuto/kershaw/s-320ET1900UCBLK.jpg

[stealthmode]

what about wave knives like the emerson wave or the spyderco knives with the emerson wave feature?

what is a mechanism defined as under the law?

does anybody know about that?

I dont think keeping a copy of the law on your person is a bad idea but a cop wont take your word for anything they will probably just arrest you anyway and then let the courts sort out the issue.

[Dont Tread on Me]

http://www.equalccw.com/knifelaw.html

[Dump1567]

Of relevance.


Slungshots, sword canes and Shobi-zues

http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/columnist/gordon_dillow.jpg GORDON DILLOW
Register columnist
GLDillow@aol.com (GLDillow@aol.com)


My Register colleague Rachanee Srisavasdi had an interesting article about pocket knives in last Sunday's paper. The gist of it was that there's a lot of confusion among the general public and even among law enforcement agencies as to what kinds of pocket knives are legal to carry and what kinds are illegal switchblades.
But while it was beyond the scope of Rachanee's story, the fact is that there is a whole host of other potential weapons that are illegal to possess in California – some of which you've probably never even heard of.
Consider, for example, a slungshot.
No, I don't mean a "slingshot," which is a completely different thing. A "slungshot" is an improvised weapon featuring a weight or "shot" attached to the end of a short cord tied around the user's wrist, the weight being hurled at a victim's face or head in a yo-yo fashion. Slungshots were popular among urban street thugs in the 19th century, but they fell out of fashion about a hundred years ago.
Nevertheless, California Penal Code Section 12020 still specifically states that you aren't allowed to have a slungshot – and if you do, even in the sanctity of your own home, you're committing a misdemeanor or even a potential felony.
And that's not all. Section 12020 also prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale or possession of "any cane gun or wallet gun … any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken" – also known as "throwing stars" – "any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice hand grenade or metal replica grenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap or sandbag."
Wow! That's a lot of stuff we aren't allowed to have.
Sure, some of it makes sense. Zip guns or cane guns or wallet guns (which the section defines as "any firearm mounted or enclosed in a case, resembling a wallet") may not be advisable for people to own – although when it comes to cane guns I'd make an exception for senior citizens who live in bad neighborhoods and might occasionally need to shoot some purse-snatching hoodlum. Same thing goes for sword canes and leaded canes, which are defined as "a staff, crutch, stick, rod, pole, or similar device, unnaturally weighted with lead."
And yes, there are some exceptions to the law. For example, licensed martial arts schools can possess nunchakus -- an Asian fighting instrument also known as "nunchuks" -- and security guards are allowed to have billy clubs if they have been trained and licensed. The rest of us, however, cannot, as rapper Snoop Dogg found out last year when he was arrested for allegedly carrying a telescoping police baton at John Wayne Airport. (His trial on weapons charges is pending.)
But a lot of the prohibitions seem archaic, or just plain silly. An air gauge knife? A lipstick case knife? A writing pen knife? How much more inherently dangerous can they be than, say, a perfectly legal hammer or baseball bat? And how many people even know what a "shobi-zue" is?
Actually, the Penal Code defines a shobi-zue as a stick, rod, pole, etc. with a concealed knife or blade attached. Two years ago an Orange County sheriff's deputy arrested an ex-con for carrying a concealed knife and a stick-mounted blade that prosecutors called a "shobi-zue spear," but which the ex-con insisted was a "gardening tool." The knife charge stuck, but the shobi-zue charge was dropped.
True, as that case indicates, having such a wide array of illegal weapons can be useful – if not always successful -- in charging chronic criminals who are up to no good. But why should a law-abiding woman – or a man, if he's so inclined – not be allowed to carry for her own protection a tiny knife that can fit into a lipstick case?
Of course, I don't expect the state legislature to make the weapons laws more sensible. The boys in Sacramento are much too busy with legislation regulating trans fats in our food and making the Claim Jumper tell us exactly how many calories are in the meat loaf special to spend any time fixing a real problem.
So be careful. Study up on the weapons laws. Don't assume that that broken mop handle in your car trunk couldn't be mistaken for an illegal billy club.
And if you feel that you absolutely, positively have to have a slungshot, please keep it safely hidden.
Right next to your shobi-zue.


Contact the writer: CONTACT THE WRITER 714-796-7953 or GLDillow@aol.com (GLDillow@aol.com)

[saki302]

Was the OC cop carrying a knife? Most officers would have a spyderco of one type or another. If he did, I would have been happy to show him how to flip it open, and hand him back his illegal 'gravity knife' :D

-Dave