comment on the RKBA elements of the irony-of-fixed-mags thread

[trashman]

I would offer the following observation on last night's train wr...thread. I actually found it completely satisfying, and here's why.

Gun rights, especially in California, is a zero-sum, no holds-barred, below-the-belt, dirty POLITICAL game. And I don't mean political as in "the democratic process".

What was demonstrated in that thread last night, again, is that progunners (and Calgunners!), whether libertarian/liberal/conservative, are passionate and activist. We will *always* outwork the opposition. Period. We have something very tangible to lose -- whereas when you break down the statistics, the deaths, whatever math you want to throw at the RKBA issue -- the anti-gunners have something much less tangible -- and much more abstract -- to "lose". That is to say, they don't stand to lose much (an argument, maybe).

Sure, the name-calling and whatnot kinda singes the eyebrows when you read it. And, I think Bill Wiese was a little hard on Kingsnake. But you know what - BILL'S EARNED THE RIGHT TO BE HARD ON HIM. A lot of Johnny-come-lately's (such as Kingsnake, or even myself) are the proud owners of Black Rifles thanks to Bill's (and others') work on this issue. They put in the WORK to make it possible. All I did was plunk down the money after the battle was won (to be fair, I had only just moved to California).

The hard truth is - gun rights *is* a zero-sum game. It's not an abstract issue -- it's a tangible one with serious metaphysical implications. Everything we trade away gets used against us; every "reasonable concession", even in a friendly debate, gets misused or misconstrued by people who *just don't like guns*. Playing fair isn't an option -- trying to appear "reasonable" isn't a strategy to win hearts and minds. Trying to explain the difference between semi-auto and full-auto to people who just don't like guns is like trying to teach a cat to fold laundry. It makes about as much sense, too. And (to stretch the metaphor), just as we prefer that cats crap in their litterbox, be glad that folks who are anti-gun have a whole host of other, *winnable*, issues that they will choose to spend their time/effort/money on -- RATHER than the gun-control issue. As long as we make it so.

We just have to continue to WORK and make it not worth their while to pursue the revocation of our gun rights.

So, press on. Speaking for myself, I would have been concerned about last night's thread only if it died a quiet death.

--Neill

[M. Sage]

Wow. I really agree with you, even though I still feel that jumping all over Kingsnake might not have been the best way to handle it.

At the end of the day, though, I agree 100% that our side of the fight can be nothing but no-hold-barred. Raise the red flag, as far as I'm concerned.

It is known that from about 1300, Norman ships would fly red streamers to indicate that they would "give no quarter" (take no prisoners) in battle. This usage persisted into the 17th century, when the flag was adopted by Buccaneers, who were pirates of French origin operating in the West Indies. Buccaneers would initially hoist the Jolly Roger to intimidate their foes. If the victims chose to fight rather than submit to being boarded, the pirates would then raise the red flag to indicate that once the ship had been captured, no man would be spared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag

None given, none asked.

[tiki]

Did something get deleted? I went to meet some friends and was gone Friday night and Saturday morning.

[TheMan]

It wasn't deleted, just locked. It was in the riflemans forum:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=63846

[aileron]

Okay, so I read KingSnakes second post and said, "okay I'm not going to read on, he is going to have his head handed to him."

I hope KingSnake doesn't run off though and takes away the knowledge of how devoted we are to full functioning firearms as our founders intended. For our protection and our freedoms as Americans.


Besides its a pain to have a neutered rifle.

[LAK Supply]

I only read the first few pages.... that thread portrayed a sorry snapshot of CalGuns.

I don't think anybody here started out as an all-knowing gun-rights guru- there is a learning curve to everything, and nobody can form their true opinions overnight. I've formed my opinions over the years as a result of people taking the time to present their arguments.... many times facts and issues were raised that I didn't even know existed. This lead to curiosity; I took an interest in history, gun-control, etc. and began to research things that I wouldn't have otherwise. Ten years ago I didn't know anything about the ATF, the true meanin of the 2A, the events at Ruby Ridge, FOPA, the NFA, etc.... that has changed because people who knew more than I did took the time to present their views in a logical, rational manner. This is exactly what didn't happen in the aforementioned thread.

I personally don't care how much anybody has done for any movement; contributions don't give anybody the right to make enemies out of potential allies, especially in the manner I noticed in the thread. I enjoy my EBR too, but the folks that were an integral part of the should still be civil to newcomers; in fact I would expect them to be more so since they are the ones the newcomers are supposed to be looking up to.

KS had every right to get angry, and although I do not agree with some of his comments either, I'm not surprised at them when the personal attack is considered. The guy simply expressed his views (some of which I don't agree with BTW); he didn't attack anybody until he was attacked. Threads like that are the reason I stay away from some of the other forums out there...... The whole point of this place is to get people together for fun, education, and action.

Just my $.02.......

[WokMaster1]

My mentor once told me that you are not going to learn anything if you don't shut up & listen.














That's why I fired up 3 buckets of popcorn......:D
Sorry, I couldn't help it.

[Quiet]

My $0.02.

Only people who follow gun laws are law abiding citizens.

Case in point.
All the federal and CA state gun laws didn't stop Larry Phillips Jr. & Emil Matasareanu from using full-auto firearms & hi-capacity magazines, when they robbed the North Hollywood Bank of America in 1997.

So, some one who suggests that certain gun laws prohibiting certain items are good for crime control, doesn't really comprehend that those who commit crimes won't be effected by the prohibition laid out by gun control laws.


Fighting for pro-gun rights in CA is an uphill battle.
It's also often done by a small percentage of the gun owners in CA.
Those who have been fighting for many, many years are often not appreciated enough for all the hard work they've done to make possible with what we currently have.

Some pro-gunners tend to be hard on people who believe they are pro-gun but they advocate compromises to the pro-gun cause. Because any compromise and/or acceptance of gun control laws, makes the pro-gun fight an even harder struggle than before.


Once people start making personal attacks, it stops being a discussion and becomes something in which people stop listening and thinking rationally.