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aileron
07-19-2007, 12:19 PM
I keep thinking this cant be true, considering they have better access to weapons throughout south America. Its just too easy to get good weapons.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0719/p01s01-woam.htm


US guns arm Mexico's drug wars
The Calderón government is asking for – and getting – more US support in cracking down on gun smuggling.
By Sara Miller Llana | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

Mexico City

Marcelo Garza y Garza, the top state police investigator in Nuevo Leon, walked out of a church in an upscale neighborhood in Monterrey to take a cellphone call last September, when two bullets struck the back of his head.

The shots came from a semiautomatic pistol that did precisely what its colloquial name – matapolicia, or "police killer" – suggests. Mr. Garza y Garza died immediately.

"Police killers," so named because they were created to penetrate bulletproof vests, are among the newest weapons streaming into Mexico from the United States. Some 200 seized in Mexico last year – including the one used in the Garza murder – had been purchased in the US, and many more are in circulation, say authorities.

These guns, though, are a fraction of the high-powered weaponry purchased legally or illegally in stores and at gun shows in Texas, Arizona, and California and smuggled by the thousands into Mexico. Moreover, the demand for combat-style guns is on the rise, as drug traffickers arm themselves to the teeth to compete for control of trade routes into the US and, more recently, to resist a massive military crackdown that began when President Felipe Calderón took office in December.

In some ways this is an old border story.

Drugs have always gone north. Guns go south. But as Mexico's drug wars spiral so violently out of control that beheadings are tallied in local papers, the Calderón administration is demanding that the US do more to stanch the gun smuggling and to amend gun laws that, it says, are interfering with Mexico's fight to disarm organized crime.

"There is a contradiction," says a Mexican senior official speaking on condition of anonymity. "The US says they are so worried about drug trafficking, but the US is the one arming the drug traffickers."

Amid violence that has even spilled onto American soil, the US government is answering the call. US-Mexico cooperation on the matter, say many involved in the effort, has reached an unprecedented level, including gun tracing, personnel training, information-sharing, extraditions, and the establishment of joint task forces.

Still, US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales acknowledged in June, at a meeting of his counterparts in Mexico and Central America, that the US could do more to stem the deadly flow of illegal guns across the border.

"That is something being discussed at the highest levels, particularly given that the Calderón administration has demonstrated to be very bold" against drug traffickers, says Armand Peschard-Sverdrup, director of the Mexico Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), a Washington research organization.

A death toll of 1,400 this year

The stakes for Mexico are high – and getting higher. At least 1,400 people here have been killed in drug-related violence since January, and the tally has been rising for three years running. The arrests of high-level leaders of the Tijuana, Gulf, and Juarez cartels, during former President Vicente Fox's term, have led to a power struggle as organizations splintered and are now jostling for control of lucrative trade routes into the US.

Government officials can get a reading on the street situation from the kinds of guns being used and confiscated. In the 1980s, they saw mostly handguns, drug traffickers' weapon of choice. Now narcotraffickers are arming themselves, literally, for war.

Grenades have been hurled into newspaper offices and local police stations. Guns like the one that killed Garza y Garza in Monterrey are increasingly being turned on police, judges, and journalists. The notorious May shootout that killed nearly two dozen in the town of Cananea, 35 miles south of the border with Arizona, had a clear-cut connection with cross-border weapons smuggling: Of the 23 guns that were recovered, about three-quarters were found to have been purchased in Texas and the rest in Arizona and California, say US authorities.

That comes as no surprise to Mexican officials: Of all the confiscated firearms that are run through traces in Mexico – some 5,000 to 10,000 annually – more than 90 percent are first purchased in the US, they say.

Guns are not easy to obtain in Mexico, at least legally. Citizens who want arms for self-protection or to hunt must present petitions to the Defense Department, undergo extensive background checks, and buy their weapons – all of them relatively low-caliber – from the institution itself, says Raul Benitez, a security expert at the Center for North American Studies at the National Autonomous University of Mexico. There are no gun stores. After a gun is legally purchased, it cannot be moved. Owners must keep them at home.

Some weapons seized from drug traffickers, such as grenades, are stolen from the Mexican military. But drug traffickers have little interest in weapons carried by the military, because they are of lower caliber than the semiautomatic weapons from the US, says Martin Gabriel Barron, a researcher at the National Criminal Sciences Institute in Mexico City. The semiautomatics are then often modified to fire like machine guns.

Most guns cross into Mexico via "ant traffic," three to five weapons at a time, stashed under car seats. Once over the border, weapons fetch double or triple the price paid in the US, says Mr. Benitez. There are plenty of buyers – kidnappers, thieves, people who simply want a gun without enduring the red tape to do it legally – but many contraband guns end up in the hands of drug traffickers. The only people who can afford matapolicias, at about $1,200 a pop, are the narcotraffickers, says a US official who asked to remain anonymous because he works in counterarms investigations.

US responds to Mexican pressure

Mexican presidents have long complained of US policies that they say make it difficult to cut off the weapons trade, but the Calderón government has been the most vocal critic, many say. In June, Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora called US policies on guns "absurd."

"The Mexican government has been applying a lot of pressure on the US government," says Mr. Peschard-Sverdrup of CSIS.

As a result, cooperation is reaching new levels. The US Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) is training Mexican federal and state police and customs officials to properly trace weapons to the US via a technology called E-trace, and is developing a version in Spanish that will leave less room for error. The US has donated dogs that can detect 19,000 types of explosive power. The ATF intends to provide X-ray scanning equipment for beefed-up inspection of vehicles entering Mexico from the US. Both countries are working toward sharing information in real time about organized-crime investigations.

Some worry, though, that Mexico is becoming too dependent on the US to correct the gunrunning problem and its related ills, instead of focusing on its own weaknesses. Mexico's decision in January to extradite 15 suspected drug-cartel leaders to the US is a case in point, says Erubiel Tirado, a security expert at the Iberoamerican University in Mexico City. "It is an implicit recognition of the big failure of the whole prosecuting system to control the phenomenon," he says. "We decided to give up the effort and send the main cartels to the US."

In some matters, US can't help

Not all blame can be laid at the US doorstep, say many experts in Mexico. "There is less control [along Mexico's southern border] and more routes," says Eduardo Valle, a former assistant to the attorney general in the early 1990s. "This is the part that no one talks about." Even if 90 percent of the guns that end up in Mexico originate from the US, a share of those weapons arrive via Central and South America – some of them brought in by big-time arms dealers, he says.

Corruption by Mexican officials, too, remains a problem. A recent report by the legislature's National Defense Commission blamed customs for the illegal flow of arms into Mexico. The chief of Mexico's Customs Department, Juan Jose Bravo, declined repeated interview requests through a spokesman. But in a press conference in early July he said the department would be unveiling new plans to modernize customs and help prevent gun smuggling.

"The basic issue is that guns are sold legally on the US side," says Cuauhtémoc Sandoval, a congressman who sits on the commission. "The corruption in customs, and the incapacity of the Mexican state to control it, allows them right through."

aileron
07-19-2007, 12:19 PM
cont....



Taming the violence, the guns, and the cartels requires reforming Mexico's institutions, analysts say. "There is no organized crime without the complicity of state structures, at any level, at any position," says Mr. Tirado, the security expert. "Because of corruption [and] weakened institutions, because of lack of professionalization in police structures … now we have the Mexican Army on the streets."

In the short term, cooperation with the US is the most promising strategy, many say. Still, there's much room for progress. Only a small portion of firearms recovered in Mexico is traced, though that number is increasing each year, says William Hoover, ATF assistant director for field operations, who headed an ATF delegation to Mexico recently. Even when Mexico runs a trace on a gun, says another ATF official, the process is only successful about 40 percent of the time.

The ATF has just two agents stationed permanently in Mexico, even as the presence of other organizations such as the US Drug Enforcement Agency has grown.

For all the kinks yet to be worked out, the symbiosis between the two nations is heartening to those working in the field.

"The bilateral cooperation between the US and Mexico has never been better," says J.J. Ballesteros, the ATF Southwest Border Program manager in Texas for gun trafficking into Mexico. "They came and opened up their investigative files, which prompted us to do the same. We saw positive results … and with each positive result this inspires more and more cooperation."

•Friday: View from the US.

CalNRA
07-19-2007, 12:22 PM
yep, Mexican gun laws sure are followed. I must have been hallucinating when I saw a couple of drivers start waving their pistols around after a minor collision. The cops who took the report didn't seem to mind and sent them their respective ways. (we were in Porta Vallarta)

next thing you know they will be blaming America for American-born Mexicans returning to MExico to engage in unlawful activities.

ElCUBANO
07-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Just another good reason to build the wall.

Socal858
07-19-2007, 12:41 PM
$1,200 for a CZ52, cmon now!:cool2:

pnkssbtz
07-19-2007, 12:47 PM
But drug traffickers have little interest in weapons carried by the military, because they are of lower caliber than the semiautomatic weapons from the US, says Martin Gabriel Barron, a researcher at the National Criminal Sciences Institute in Mexico City. The semiautomatics are then often modified to fire like machine guns.
What does Mexico's military use, .380 acp or something?

1064chubbs
07-19-2007, 01:32 PM
yep, Mexican gun laws sure are followed. I must have been hallucinating when I saw a couple of drivers start waving their pistols around after a minor collision. The cops who took the report didn't seem to mind and sent them their respective ways. (we were in Porta Vallarta)

next thing you know they will be blaming America for American-born Mexicans returning to MExico to engage in unlawful activities.

Well to tell you the truth, most if not all the Cops (Policia) are just people that have limited education and were probably dirt poor before being a cop and not much richer after becoming one. I have seen this first hand. And the funny thing to me is that when a cop confiscates a gun its because they really want it as their duty weapon. Also have seen this first hand. but like I said since they are poor they can always be paid off to let you keep your gun.

AJAX22
07-19-2007, 02:17 PM
What we need to do is send down a few shipments of 'custom' handloads for them to confiscate. Just send them down in an obvious way for the police to sieze.

I wouldn't be surprised if you started reading about a lot of one handed drug dealers named 'lefty'

xrMike
07-19-2007, 02:19 PM
What does Mexico's military use, .380 acp or something?A couple years ago we ran into a group of uniformed mesican soldiers in a very remote part of Baja, during a dirt-biking trip, and they were all carrying FALs. Seeing what looks like a 16 year old kid carrying an FAL is pretty weird, but what was even stranger, is that those guys were waaaaaaay out in the middle of absolute nowhere, I mean smack dab in the middle of bumphuk nowhere with desert all around for many miles. We finally got 1 of them to talk to us and he told us in broken english they were looking for "drogas" (or more accurately, people smuggling drogas).

Socal858
07-19-2007, 02:41 PM
A couple years ago we ran into a group of uniformed mesican soldiers in a very remote part of Baja, during a dirt-biking trip, and they were all carrying FALs. Seeing what looks like a 16 year old kid carrying an FAL is pretty weird, but what was even stranger, is that those guys were waaaaaaay out in the middle of absolute nowhere, I mean smack dab in the middle of bumphuk nowhere with desert all around for many miles. We finally got 1 of them to talk to us and he told us in broken english they were looking for "drogas" (or more accurately, people smuggling drogas).

well at least im glad SOME of the mexican military is out doing something useful. from what you said it sounds liek they were walking around on foot:confused: . did they at least have a vehicle or osmething


oh yeah and tell their leader if they stop sending mexicans we'll stop sending guns :43:

ghettoshecky
07-19-2007, 02:46 PM
A couple years ago we ran into a group of uniformed mesican soldiers in a very remote part of Baja, during a dirt-biking trip, and they were all carrying FALs. Seeing what looks like a 16 year old kid carrying an FAL is pretty weird, but what was even stranger, is that those guys were waaaaaaay out in the middle of absolute nowhere, I mean smack dab in the middle of bumphuk nowhere with desert all around for many miles. We finally got 1 of them to talk to us and he told us in broken english they were looking for "drogas" (or more accurately, people smuggling drogas).

yeah I've seen them with G3s and FALs when they were harassing and oppressing Mexicans of Indian decent. They use NATO rounds, wth are these "high caliber" semi-autos?

lazuris
07-19-2007, 02:47 PM
Dear Mexico,

Stop sending us your mexicans and we'll stop sending you our guns.

ghettoshecky
07-19-2007, 02:51 PM
hehe how about we build a nice big impenetrable wall with "war-hardened" US soldiers patrolling the border. They'll make damn sure nothing goes either way.

xrMike
07-19-2007, 03:50 PM
well at least im glad SOME of the mexican military is out doing something useful. from what you said it sounds liek they were walking around on foot:confused: . did they at least have a vehicle or osmethingYes, they had a military style transport truck with a cab and a bed on the back with a couple of rows of benches for sitting. They were taking a break when we rolled up. I guess their job was to patrol a certain area, which they did by truck. I was suprised by their professionalism and military bearing. Most of them looked real young, like 18 -25 years old. Definitely Federales or some kind of anti-narco unit.

1064chubbs
07-19-2007, 04:15 PM
Yes, they had a military style transport truck with a cab and a bed on the back with a couple of rows of benches for sitting. They were taking a break when we rolled up. I guess their job was to patrol a certain area, which they did by truck. I was suprised by their professionalism and military bearing. Most of them looked real young, like 18 -25 years old. Definitely Federales or some kind of anti-narco unit.

If they were wearing all green uniforms they are the Mexican military and those guys seem mild manner but sometimes when I would travel to Mexico in car they had checkpoints and the guys I would talk to were higher than sh**t and the smell of Mary J was very strong.

Yankee Clipper
07-19-2007, 05:31 PM
Interesting read aileron, even though the writer didn't seem to know anything about firearms - apparently repeating what she heard or thought she heard. What, for instance is a cop killing semi-automatic pistol? Up close, outside a church, and distracted by a cell phone, it could be anything from 22 caliber on up. Towards the end, though, it seemed like she was trying to tell the other side of the story. Her paper, the Christian Science Monitor, at one time was the number one domestic paper for truthful, un-politicized reporting. I don't know if they are still held in such high esteem.
The alleged source of cartels firearms is what catches the readers interest but the reason for all murders have more to do with a culture that, probably correctly, doesn’t have any respect for the authority of the police. Until that changes illegal firearms, drug dealing, and high murder rate will continue to plague their society. That’s just my opinion and I’d sure like to see that attitude change. I doubt, though, we’ll see it in our collective life times.

ViPER395
07-19-2007, 06:04 PM
Maybe Mexico should enforce its border.

How 'bout we do a guns for illegals trade... We get one US-bought gun back and Mexico takes back one of its worthless criminal escapees.

pnkssbtz
07-19-2007, 06:11 PM
A couple years ago we ran into a group of uniformed mesican soldiers in a very remote part of Baja, during a dirt-biking trip, and they were all carrying FALs. Seeing what looks like a 16 year old kid carrying an FAL is pretty weird, but what was even stranger, is that those guys were waaaaaaay out in the middle of absolute nowhere, I mean smack dab in the middle of bumphuk nowhere with desert all around for many miles. We finally got 1 of them to talk to us and he told us in broken english they were looking for "drogas" (or more accurately, people smuggling drogas).

So what "semi-auto" military style rifle is available on the market in the US that is chambered for a round larger than 7.62 x 51?

I doubt drug runners are going around with Garands. I can't think of any semi-auto rifle that fires a larger round.

The original article is F.U.D.

Bad Voodoo
07-19-2007, 06:16 PM
Guns?!? Shoot, you can walk into dimestores in certain parts of Mexico and walk out with real full-sticks of dynamite. Now, who's whining about guns?

-voodoo

Glasshat
07-19-2007, 06:38 PM
Drug gangs and communist gangs won't have to get guns in the USA (gun show loophole? straw purchase?) once Venezuela has their AK-47 factory on-line next year in Maracay.

M. Sage
07-19-2007, 06:46 PM
So what "semi-auto" military style rifle is available on the market in the US that is chambered for a round larger than 7.62 x 51?

I doubt drug runners are going around with Garands. I can't think of any semi-auto rifle that fires a larger round.

The original article is F.U.D.

SVD? :confused:

:p

The article is FUD, but it at least sounds like it was FUD that was fed to the author instead of FUD that they came up with on their own.

ZapThyCat
07-20-2007, 11:55 PM
The headline SHOULD read: "MEXICO'S guns arm America's Drug Wars". That's more accurate....

jdberger
07-21-2007, 12:39 AM
This is a wire story. The same one was in the SF Chronicle on Sunday.

A long time ago, when I worked in a gun shop, we used to sell TONS of guns to green-carded Mexicans. Mostly in .38 Super - the reasoning being that military calibers were verboten in mexico.

Lew Horton even did a special run of Colt 1911s in .38 Super. (http://www.m1911.org/mod_hort.htm) Polished them up to look like a New Orleans pimp and called them "El Capitan" "El General" El Jefe" etc. Only 200 of each one, special serial numbers and everything. We couldn't keep them in stock at $2-3K. We'd have guys come in and buy 3 different ones, same serial numbers. One for Pop and 2 for the sons.

Then they'd come back a week later for more ammo - they'd shot the snot out of them.

We figured that most ended up back in Mexico.

carsonwales
07-21-2007, 01:44 PM
the Calderón administration is demanding that the US do more to stanch the gun smuggling....Well lets oblige Mr Calderon...

How about a 100 yard wide California to Texas minefield, squad operated machine guns at key choke points, and a 20' tall electrical fence...coast to coast...and of course prohibition of Mexican trucks to cross the border.

That ought to do the trick....

What a tool Calderon is...

xenophobe
07-21-2007, 02:53 PM
Lew Horton even did a special run of Colt 1911s in .38 Super. (http://www.m1911.org/mod_hort.htm) Polished them up to look like a New Orleans pimp and called them "El Capitan" "El General" El Jefe" etc. Only 200 of each one, special serial numbers and everything. We couldn't keep them in stock at $2-3K. We'd have guys come in and buy 3 different ones, same serial numbers. One for Pop and 2 for the sons.

Yeah, but the older guys wouldn't care about those and would come in and count the checkered parts on the early ones! ;)


We figured that most ended up back in Mexico.

Yup.

AJAX22
07-21-2007, 06:23 PM
alot of mexico's wealthy citizens actually do get their guns from the U.S.

I've heard that they pay outrageous prices for handguns from several sources.

one buddys dad (since deceased) would make a few K a trip just bringing a nice ruger revolver or something down in his saddle bags.

other guys who take special orders and drive motorhomes down to baja loaded with ordinance make upwards of 120 K per trip.

If you make anything illigal someone will be willing to capitalize on it.

I personally don't feel that its worth the risk, or that arming that particular element of society is a worthwhile endevor.

olegk
07-21-2007, 07:52 PM
We enforce anti-drug law, they enforce ant-gun law. What is the problem here?