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hossb7
07-15-2007, 4:37 PM
so, i've been sitting on my stag15 stripped lower for about 18 months (i was anticipating a new list being released, and i never got around to building it), and now im thinking of completing it. im going to get a standard LPK and generic 6-position stock.

upper:
CMMG 14.5 M4 A1 SOCOM Upper w/Permanent Hider
extra options: polished ramps, and a phantom 5C1 flash hider (or Vortex hider) and a double heat shield handgaurd.

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/images/738.JPG

optics:
Aimpoint COMP ML3 with LaRue cantilever mount

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/canteleverbig.jpg

B.U.I.S. this still might be optional for me, but im thinking of a Troy Industries one (if not Troy Ind, then an ARMS #40L-SP):

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/troyani.gif

:shrug:

hossb7
07-15-2007, 4:39 PM
p.s. i will be doing a bullet button configuration, if it makes a difference

Giovani X
07-15-2007, 4:50 PM
Do it , do it, do it !!!!! I have the same CMMG SOCOM upper w/polished ramps, and the permanent phantom flash hider. This baby is flawless with no FTF/FTE ever. If you want a flash hider get the phantom. From what I can see it produces no flash what so ever at the indoor range, but it is very loud. You give a little to gain a little I guess. I love her, and can't say enough good things about CMMG. Stand up company and great products. If you build her she will shoot...and well. Good luck and keep us posted.

hossb7
07-15-2007, 4:54 PM
Do it , do it, do it !!!!! I have the same CMMG SOCOM upper w/polished ramps, and the permanent phantom flash hider. This baby is flawless with no FTF/FTE ever. If you want a flash hider get the phantom. From what I can see it produces no flash what so ever at the indoor range, but it is very loud. You give a little to gain a little I guess. I love her, and can't say enough good things about CMMG. Stand up company and great products. If you build her she will shoot...and well. Good luck and keep us posted.
awesome :cool: does the phantom help with recoil at all?

Mute
07-15-2007, 5:21 PM
No criticism here. Good setup. I personally prefer folding front and back irons, but that's purely subjective.

PLINK
07-15-2007, 6:32 PM
The only suggestion I can make is if you ever want to go featureless you might want to get the 16in barrel to be able to install a muzzle brake or thread protector.

Or you can get another upper or barrel assembly if that time comes.

I like to leave my options open.

tiger222
07-15-2007, 6:32 PM
i think the 14.7" with pinned A2 is a better looking and more "correct looking" option, they also have the 14.7" lightweights too.... not to mention the 16" light weight midlength (probably the most ideal setup and you can keep an non-pinned muzzle and change out to whatever device you need.)

and also a 20" light weight
M703 clone here I come!!!::gunsmilie:

aplinker
07-15-2007, 6:35 PM
awesome :cool: does the phantom help with recoil at all?

I would disagree, the Vortex is the better choice.

Also, if you want a more flexible build (you probably do if this is your 1st), go with the 16". You can always cut it down later!

Only change I'd make... I'd probably get a free float rail and put the front BUIS on the rail.

proraptor
07-15-2007, 6:43 PM
Good choice with the CMMG upper....Id ditch the troy and get a midwest industries rear folding sight...

Jicko
07-15-2007, 7:30 PM
p.s. i will be doing a bullet button configuration, if it makes a difference

Personally, I think you are MUCH better off with a muzzle brake rather than a flash hider.

For one, flash hider really isn't that useful....

Then, if you did put a perm flash hider on, you are limiting your CA-legal-AR build approach... you CANNOT go "detachable mag w/ no evil features".... even if you are thinking about doing pistol and bullet button now, you should still allow yourself some flexibility.

Troy BUIS is a GREAT choice.

For real M4gery, you may want to consider a FF railed handguard. A daniel defence 7.0 onto the CMMG looks great... and better yet, you may want to consider a DD 9.0, with a lo-pro gas block, and then a Troy flip down front sight on the rail... that is such a cool cool look....

last but no least.... i highly recommend 1x7 twist rate...

donger
07-15-2007, 7:44 PM
Good choice with the CMMG upper....Id ditch the troy and get a midwest industries rear folding sight...

Well if you're going to ditch the Troy BUIS you might as well ditch the CMMG upper and go with an Oly or M1S.:rolleyes:

Jicko
07-15-2007, 7:57 PM
Well if you're going to ditch the Troy BUIS you might as well ditch the CMMG upper and go with an Oly or M1S.:rolleyes:

Agree!!

Mute
07-15-2007, 10:03 PM
Best folding sights on the market are the Troys.

hossb7
07-16-2007, 8:32 PM
Best folding sights on the market are the Troys.

this is what i've heard also, second would be the ARMS #40

and it seems like everyone is suggesting i go with a 16" bbl just so i can have that extra option, and i think i will take that into consideration :D thanks for the suggestion guys!

adamsreeftank
07-16-2007, 8:42 PM
I second the suggestion to either go 16 inch (with a mid-length gas) or use a perm attached muzzle brake in case you ever want to go MMgrip. Either way, you may want to consider a folding front sight. Some people like to co-witness their irons and optics, but I prefer to fold them out of the way when not in use.

hossb7
07-16-2007, 9:15 PM
i dont mind the co-witness, but as for wanting a break over a hider in case i want to go MMgrip, WOULD i ever want to go MMgrip if i have a bullet button?

i guess a better question would be, why would i want to?

Jicko
07-16-2007, 10:27 PM
Situations or matches that requires you to do "magazine change"...

For example.... 3-guns or tactical rifle match

http://images22.fotki.com/v754/photos/2/26966/4756782/processedIMG_9684-vi.jpg


Also, WHY would you want a "flash hider"!?!?

adamsreeftank
07-16-2007, 10:31 PM
i dont mind the co-witness, but as for wanting a break over a hider in case i want to go MMgrip, WOULD i ever want to go MMgrip if i have a bullet button?

i guess a better question would be, why would i want to?

I like the bullet button for A1, A2 and M4 look-alike builds, but my get-up-and-go gun has a MM grip.

hossb7
07-16-2007, 10:58 PM
Also, WHY would you want a "flash hider"!?!?

i dont know :confused: like i said, this is my first AR build, so im really looking for suggestions more than anything.

what are pros and cons to muzzle breaks vs. those of flash hiders?

hossb7
07-16-2007, 11:30 PM
i dont even know yet what i want to do. i think for now, im going to build it as i originally planned, i just need to work out if i want a 14.5 with perm attached hider or break, or a 16" with my choice.

the way im leaning is features over drop mag, simply because im not ready yet to get into three gun comps.

blackrifle
07-17-2007, 1:01 AM
What is the "purpose" of your build? Are you looking to plink less than 100 rounds per month on a bench at the range or are you planning on doing some real defensive/combat type training or competitive shooting? You do realize that one AR is not enough, right? :43: BRD is your friend...really...it is...:chris:

Either way, from my own experience with various brands I would go with Colt, Noveske, LMT, BCM, Troy, GG&G, Vltor, Tango Down, Daniel Defense, LaRue, KAC, Magpul, etc. type products.

I would AVOID DPMS, CMMG, STAG/CMT, (Special)Olympic Arms, Blackthorne/Hesse/Vulcan, Armalite, American Spirit, Sabre Defence and the myriad of 3rd tier vendors (except for lowers and some parts which can be ok). Again, this is from my own experience...

Jicko
07-17-2007, 7:09 AM
i dont know :confused: like i said, this is my first AR build, so im really looking for suggestions more than anything.

what are pros and cons to muzzle breaks vs. those of flash hiders?

You want a muzzle brake.

You are not likely to need to conceal your firing position from your enemy and you are not likely to fire in pitch black darkness. So you don't need a flash hider.

With a perm flash hider, you can NEVER go evil-feature-less, since you would have a perm "evil feature".... why limit yourself?

PanzerAce
07-17-2007, 8:16 AM
I would AVOID DPMS, CMMG, STAG/CMT, (Special)Olympic Arms, Blackthorne/Hesse/Vulcan, Armalite, American Spirit, Sabre Defence and the myriad of 3rd tier vendors (except for lowers and some parts which can be ok). Again, this is from my own experience...

Why avoid CMMG? I love mine and you really are the first person I have heard that doesn't like them.

You are not likely to need to conceal your firing position from your enemy and you are not likely to fire in pitch black darkness. So you don't need a flash hider.

With a perm flash hider, you can NEVER go evil-feature-less, since you would have a perm "evil feature".... why limit yourself?

It is possible to get a "permanent" hider changed for something else. Also, IIRC, the phantom that he is looking to get is designed to reduce muzzle climb as well.

Also, he has another rifle that he can use for 3 gun...and its one that you wouldn't expect to see ;)

Also, Jicko, I find it interesting that you are asking why he wants a flash hider, when on the picture that you linked on the last page, I see at least 3 things that you don't need on that kind of build (the stock could be an A2, you don't need the rails, and you don't need a fake can)

rksimple
07-17-2007, 8:21 AM
I would AVOID DPMS, CMMG, STAG/CMT, (Special)Olympic Arms, Blackthorne/Hesse/Vulcan, Armalite, American Spirit, Sabre Defence and the myriad of 3rd tier vendors (except for lowers and some parts which can be ok). Again, this is from my own experience...

You're the first I've seen to put CMMG and Sabre Defense as 3rd tier vendors...

hossb7
07-17-2007, 8:49 AM
Why avoid CMMG? I love mine and you really are the first person I have heard that doesn't like them.



It is possible to get a "permanent" hider changed for something else. Also, IIRC, the phantom that he is looking to get is designed to reduce muzzle climb as well.

Also, he has another rifle that he can use for 3 gun...and its one that you wouldn't expect to see ;)

Also, Jicko, I find it interesting that you are asking why he wants a flash hider, when on the picture that you linked on the last page, I see at least 3 things that you don't need on that kind of build (the stock could be an A2, you don't need the rails, and you don't need a fake can)

oh ****, i forgot about the M1 Carbine; that would be awesome to use for 3 gun :gunsmilie:

Jicko
07-17-2007, 9:02 AM
Also, Jicko, I find it interesting that you are asking why he wants a flash hider, when on the picture that you linked on the last page, I see at least 3 things that you don't need on that kind of build (the stock could be an A2, you don't need the rails, and you don't need a fake can)

That's why I ask him "WHY" he wants one... if he wants one cuz he wants one... for the look or for authenticity(military clone)... then, by all means... have a 14.5" barrel and a perm flash-hider and live with it....

I am in for the "looks".... especially the "fake can"....

hossb7
07-17-2007, 9:56 AM
i dont think i'll be doing 3 gun with this AR, so thats one reason to go with a 14.5 and perm attached hider or break (havent decided that yet). also, it won't be my primary defensive firearm, so i dont need to worry about changing mags quickly (so i can go with an attached mag and features).

i guess the only thing i need to figure out now is hider or break :confused:

Jicko
07-17-2007, 10:19 AM
i dont think i'll be doing 3 gun with this AR, so thats one reason to go with a 14.5 and perm attached hider or break (havent decided that yet). also, it won't be my primary defensive firearm, so i dont need to worry about changing mags quickly (so i can go with an attached mag and features).

i guess the only thing i need to figure out now is hider or break :confused:

Since I guess from what I read from your post, you really don't mind a "fixed magazine" (BB is probably your best choice).... so basically, if you don't need the "flexibility" then you can go with "flash hider".... on a 14.5 barrel, you will have quite a bit of unburnt powder, therefore, muzzle flash would be high, so a "flash hider" does have its benefit.

Regarding muzzle flip that potentially a brake will help, yet 223 really isn't harsh on the shooter, so flip is generally quite minimal, if any.... you can do a search on the forum to see the different reviews/opinions on the various muzzle device... the benefit of 16" barrel is that you can try out different muzzle devices and it would be "as perm" as a "perm muzzle device".... :D

I think what you should do is browse thru the 1000+ postings in the pic-thread and pick the look of a rifle that you dig.... then we can help you put together a part list... :)

ar15barrels
07-17-2007, 10:53 AM
Either way, from my own experience with various brands I would go with Colt, Noveske, LMT, BCM, Troy, GG&G, Vltor, Tango Down, Daniel Defense, LaRue, KAC, Magpul, etc. type products.

I would AVOID DPMS, CMMG, STAG/CMT

You do realize that Colt and Noveske and BCM use CMT receivers right?

ar15barrels
07-17-2007, 10:55 AM
You're the first I've seen to put CMMG and Sabre Defense as 3rd tier vendors...

Not to mention Armalite... :eek:

MrLogan
07-17-2007, 11:10 AM
Sabre makes M2 barrels for the .gov, and they're third tier? :confused:

I've got a Sabre 20" gov't profile upper, no problems here. It's a tack driver. I wish I could have used it for my M16 qualification. :D

Jicko
07-17-2007, 11:34 AM
Either way, from my own experience with various brands I would go with Colt, Noveske, LMT, BCM, Troy, GG&G, Vltor, Tango Down, Daniel Defense, LaRue, KAC, Magpul, etc. type products.

I would AVOID DPMS, CMMG, STAG/CMT, (Special)Olympic Arms, Blackthorne/Hesse/Vulcan, Armalite, American Spirit, Sabre Defence and the myriad of 3rd tier vendors (except for lowers and some parts which can be ok). Again, this is from my own experience...

Wow, very insightful.... CMMG-Vulcan-CMT-Sabre... all in the same group...

And .... Fab10 & CaliforniaBUSHMASTER are the ONLY quality(and legal) California ARs, right? :D

BTW, I find this pic VERY amusing (from CB's site), a "sealed" mag-well with "LEO and Military ONLY".... I would let them sit on my head if there is any LE or Mil organization using 1 of these rifle.....
http://californiabushmaster.com/images/colt_leo_112105_006_tio5_n7je.jpg

blackrifle
07-17-2007, 2:13 PM
You do realize that Colt and Noveske and BCM use CMT receivers right?

Listen, I know my opinion isn't generally popular but it is from personal experience with these products. I'm not talking about have ONE bad item from these companies, I'm talking about seeing several bad ones spread across short and long time spans. Unlucky? Maybe, but I'm not the only that had problems so I know it's not isolated.

Yes, I do know the relationship between Colt, Noveske, BCM and CMT when it comes to lowers. What a lot of people don't understand is that Colt and BCM they have more stringent standards. When CMT makes their own items, they don't build it to what Colt and BCM spec nor do they do the extensive QCing that Colt and BCM demand. They cut corners where commercial consumers won't notice (in their eye) because it saves them money and increases their margin.

As for Noveske, you remember that lot of "bad" lower with the incorrectly drilled pistol grip screw holes? There's a reason why John now gets LAR receivers. When I talk about Noveske, I'm talking about his barrels because everything else he buys just like you or me.

Also, remember Wes's 50%+ return rate on CMT/Stag's upper receivers? No thanks. I'm not willing to roll the dice because I don't care what anyone says, it's a PITA to have to return products and wait to get replacements...and don't get me started about companies that send you BAD REPLACEMENTS to top it off.

Stag/CMT, at one time, had a good reputation but once demand went up, their quality went down. How do you guys not remember their bad lowers? If a company increases supply without keeping their QC in check, they're not 1st tier. Colt products are generally hard to get because Colt doesn't build past their QC dept.'s capacity. There's a reason why Colt BCG's (or Bolts) sell for more and sell quickly.

Armalite is third tier IMO. If they didn't have such a high failure rate with their AR-10s, maybe they'd rate higher. They also don't have nearly as many QC checkpoints as Colt, LMT, etc. As for CMMG, these guys are third tier because I've personally experienced the following problems with them: .223 chambers marked as 5.56, incorrectly profiled barrels sold as correctly profiled barrels, no triple-check during their barrel manufacturing (giffman), etc.

With Sabre, yeah, so they have the M2 contract, not the M4 contract. Just because they make one item for the government doesn't mean that their commercial offering are as good. Anyone remember the recall on their barrels? The one with the complete screwed up rifling that somehow got pass their "extensive QC checkpoints". We're not talking about one or two barrels, we're talking about a batch of them. How do you not catch bad rifling? You would think that such a thing, for a barrel manufacturer would be "somewhat" important to QC.

I could go on but there is a reason why I only buy particular brands and in some cases, only particular items from particular brands. For example, I'm not 100% in love with RRA but they do put out good lower parts kits (better then Stag/CMT and DEFINITELY better than DPMS)

Also, mil-contracts aren't necessarily a free-pass in my book. ARMS is a mil contractor and I think their products are junk. They break, they looses up, etc., etc...

PanzerAce
07-17-2007, 2:42 PM
black rifle, I don't suppose you have any links to data about what you are saying?

MrLogan
07-17-2007, 3:03 PM
The whole CMMG/Giffman debacle was at least 50/50 blame. CMMG was provided with improper dimensions. Yes, CMMG should have checked before they made a whole lot of barrels; but still, they just manufactured to the dimensions given to them.

blackrifle
07-17-2007, 3:18 PM
black rifle, I don't suppose you have any links to data about what you are saying?
There were some links on AR15.com but I don't have the direct links and the ones I did have are archived. If you're a member, you could probably search the archives. My opinion of these brands is mostly from personal experience though. For example, I have two CMT made Noveske lowers that have crooked screw holes (pistol grip). I have a friend who has three with the same problem. John, at one point, had custom drilled Tango Down grips for these lower. John now uses LAR (who makes great lowers IMO).

The whole CMMG/Giffman debacle was at least 50/50 blame. CMMG was provided with improper dimensions. Yes, CMMG should have checked before they made a whole lot of barrels; but still, they just manufactured to the dimensions given to them.
The problem that I have is that no one at CMMG raised a flag. What kind of "engineers" do they have working at CMMG then? CMMG also refused to make good on it and Giffman ended up eating it. This isn't even the reason why I'm not a CMMG fan. I'd have CMMG products that weren't up to snuff. Bad chambers for one...didn't like milspec ammo. :rolleyes:

hossb7
07-17-2007, 4:33 PM
Since I guess from what I read from your post, you really don't mind a "fixed magazine" (BB is probably your best choice).... so basically, if you don't need the "flexibility" then you can go with "flash hider".... on a 14.5 barrel, you will have quite a bit of unburnt powder, therefore, muzzle flash would be high, so a "flash hider" does have its benefit.

Regarding muzzle flip that potentially a brake will help, yet 223 really isn't harsh on the shooter, so flip is generally quite minimal, if any.... you can do a search on the forum to see the different reviews/opinions on the various muzzle device... the benefit of 16" barrel is that you can try out different muzzle devices and it would be "as perm" as a "perm muzzle device".... :D

I think what you should do is browse thru the 1000+ postings in the pic-thread and pick the look of a rifle that you dig.... then we can help you put together a part list... :)
im like 90% sure what i want to get. i've heard from a few people that Vortex flash hiders are good.

you're saying that a flash hider would be good on a 14.5" barrel due to unburned powder, and the muzzle flip on .223 isnt that bad, then why would i want a break? i can just leave the BB configuration, and later down the line if i want a different style upper i can get one (or a whole new gun! :D)

stator
07-17-2007, 5:44 PM
Armalite is third tier IMO. If they didn't have such a high failure rate with their AR-10s, maybe they'd rate higher. They also don't have nearly as many QC checkpoints as Colt, LMT, etc. As for CMMG, these guys are third tier because I've personally experienced the following problems with them: .223 chambers marked as 5.56, incorrectly profiled barrels sold as correctly profiled barrels, no triple-check during their barrel manufacturing (giffman), etc.




Armalite lowers and uppers are from Lewis Machine Shop. They have a rich history of working together. I believe the Eagle Arms founder came from LMT. Oly makes a terrific target barrel called the SUM. I could go on but you would be better searching the internet for yourself.

Jicko
07-17-2007, 5:55 PM
im like 90% sure what i want to get. i've heard from a few people that Vortex flash hiders are good.

you're saying that a flash hider would be good on a 14.5" barrel due to unburned powder, and the muzzle flip on .223 isnt that bad, then why would i want a break? i can just leave the BB configuration, and later down the line if i want a different style upper i can get one (or a whole new gun! :D)

This is the muzzle blast from a 16" without a muzzle device.
http://images21.fotki.com/v847/photos/2/26966/3135678/MuzzleBlast_NoMuzzleDevice-vi.jpg

"a flash hider would be good(useful) on a 14.5" barrel due to unburned powder" <- yes, that statement is true... a flash hider will reduce the muzzle flash.... the muzzle flash on a longer barrel is much less than a shorter barrel. (ie. for 2 rifles, both do not have a flash hider, the muzzle flash on a 24" barrel is much less than the flash on a 14.5") And, I believed, Vortex is the BEST flash hider out there.

"muzzle flip on .223 isnt that bad, then why would i want a break" <- you actually don't. My 3-gun setup doesn't have ANY muzzle device.

"i want a different style upper i can get one" <- sure....

hossb7
07-17-2007, 7:43 PM
This is the muzzle blast from a 16" without a muzzle device.
[img]http://images21.fotki.com/v847/photos/2/26966/3135678/MuzzleBlast_NoMuzzleDevice-vi.jpg[img]

"a flash hider would be good(useful) on a 14.5" barrel due to unburned powder" <- yes, that statement is true... a flash hider will reduce the muzzle flash.... the muzzle flash on a longer barrel is much less than a shorter barrel. (ie. for 2 rifles, both do not have a flash hider, the muzzle flash on a 24" barrel is much less than the flash on a 14.5") And, I believed, Vortex is the BEST flash hider out there.

"muzzle flip on .223 isnt that bad, then why would i want a break" <- you actually don't. My 3-gun setup doesn't have ANY muzzle device.

"i want a different style upper i can get one" <- sure....

i was agreeing with what you were saying, except for wanting a muzzle break (i thought you were saying i would want one) :cool:

Jicko
07-17-2007, 8:28 PM
i was agreeing with what you were saying, except for wanting a muzzle break (i thought you were saying i would want one) :cool:

To me, if you ask for my *opinion*, I'd go for flexibility.... I generally don't like to do things that LIMIT my options...

With that said, since you want a 14.5" barrel(which you would NEED a muzzle device...), then I would vote for a muzzle brake rather than a flash hider.... since the muzzle brake will give you "more option"...

Now, seems like, $$ is not a big issue for you... and you seems to be able to just build a gun, and if you want "options", you will just go build another.... then... just build what you like.... and a flash-hider, DO have its benefit on a 14.5" barrel....

aplinker
07-17-2007, 9:43 PM
To me, if you ask for my *opinion*, I'd go for flexibility.... I generally don't like to do things that LIMIT my options...


You married, Jicko? :p

blackrifle
07-17-2007, 10:32 PM
Flash SUPPRESSORS - If you're going to install a flash suppressor, I wouldn't recommend a open bottom one like the Vortex. If you've ever shot prone on dirt or sand, you'll understand why. Go with a CLOSED bottom flash suppressor.

I'm not a fan of brakes because they are just noise makers. There is not enough recoil on a 5.56 AR to need a brake. I would go either bare or with a flash suppressor.


Stator - LMT may make their lowers and uppers but that doesn't mean that Armalite makes guns that shoot. I had so many problems with my AR-10 (and these were not unique to my gun) that I ended up getting rid of it for a huge loss.

ar15barrels
07-17-2007, 11:04 PM
Flash SUPPRESSORS - If you're going to install a flash suppressor, I wouldn't recommend a open bottom one like the Vortex. If you've ever shot prone on dirt or sand, you'll understand why. Go with a CLOSED bottom flash suppressor.

Next time you are testing flash suppressor designs, run a side-by-side comparison of closed bottom and open bottom designs close to the ground.
The difference between the two is so small it can be ignored.
The fact is simple, shoot close to the ground and you are going to kick up dirt.
I recommend a big tarp.

hossb7
07-18-2007, 12:41 AM
Next time you are testing flash suppressor designs, run a side-by-side comparison of closed bottom and open bottom designs close to the ground.
The difference between the two is so small it can be ignored.
The fact is simple, shoot close to the ground and you are going to kick up dirt.
I recommend a big tarp.

or man up because its just dirt.

blackrifle
07-18-2007, 5:01 AM
or man up because its just dirt.

man up...hahah...jesus...only someone who doesn't know sh*t about it would think that getting dirt on their person or weapon is the reason why you don't want to kick up dirt. :rolleyes:

Please explain how you "man up" when you can't see your target because of the dust cloud you've created in front of you.

blackrifle
07-18-2007, 5:04 AM
Next time you are testing flash suppressor designs, run a side-by-side comparison of closed bottom and open bottom designs close to the ground.
The difference between the two is so small it can be ignored.
The fact is simple, shoot close to the ground and you are going to kick up dirt.
I recommend a big tarp.

I've run a line of people with closed bottom and open bottom (Vortex, Phantom 28A, etc...) and the difference was significant when you ran them in dusty environments. After a few rounds, you couldn't see through the dust cloud. I don't pick my items because they're cool or "theoretically" functional. I test it and if it makes a difference, I run it.

hossb7
07-18-2007, 10:03 AM
man up...hahah...jesus...only someone who doesn't know sh*t about it would think that getting dirt on their person or weapon is the reason why you don't want to kick up dirt. :rolleyes:

Please explain how you "man up" when you can't see your target because of the dust cloud you've created in front of you.

i was joking... :chillpill:

Jicko
07-18-2007, 10:21 AM
I've run a line of people with closed bottom and open bottom (Vortex, Phantom 28A, etc...) and the difference was significant when you ran them in dusty environments. After a few rounds, you couldn't see through the dust cloud. I don't pick my items because they're cool or "theoretically" functional. I test it and if it makes a difference, I run it.

When did calguns become like barfcom?

Prc329
07-18-2007, 10:31 AM
I've run a line of people with closed bottom and open bottom (Vortex, Phantom 28A, etc...) and the difference was significant when you ran them in dusty environments. After a few rounds, you couldn't see through the dust cloud. I don't pick my items because they're cool or "theoretically" functional. I test it and if it makes a difference, I run it.

I do not mean any disrespect but ar15barrels is one of the most knowledgeable guys when it comes to AR15s there is. Hell me makes barrels for them. Some of the best in the biz. I am sure he knows what he is talking about.

blackrifle
07-18-2007, 12:18 PM
I do not mean any disrespect but ar15barrels is one of the most knowledgeable guys when it comes to AR15s there is. Hell me makes barrels for them. Some of the best in the biz. I am sure he knows what he is talking about.
I have a great respect for Randall and I know he knows a lot about AR's an other things but I have personally done testing with open and closed bottom flash suppressors and I know for a fact what happens in my experience. Of course there are variables such as how low you shoot to the ground, the angle of your gun, exactly how dusty/dry/loose/fine the ground is, etc., etc. However, I see no reason why you would want to go with an open bottom one. Even if it is a "minuscule" advantage, why not run a closed bottom flash suppressor?:confused:


When did calguns become like barfcom?
What's that supposed to mean? Empirical data isn't good enough on CalGuns? :rolleyes:

hossb7
07-18-2007, 7:34 PM
so, after long and careful deliberation i think that im going to be going with my original plan of a 14.5" upper with a perminantly attached Phantom 5C1 hider. The reasoning behind this is simple: I'd like to have a tactical rifle. I think that the shorter barrel profile i have, the better; in a SHTF scenario, or just general travel/carry and overall weight the 14.5" beats the 16". also, its more maneuverable and easier to store. i decided on the phantom 5C1 because it doesn't have anything "sticking out" so i wont snag the barrel if I'm moving around in brush or an unfriendly environment (it also doesnt have a downward facing port so it won't kick up dust).

hossb7
07-18-2007, 7:35 PM
now, all i need to figure out is what stock to get. i've narrowed it down to a 6-position, or a CTR.

6-positions run anywhere from $70 (for a Stag Arms) to $117 (for an LMT).

CTRs are about $90-$95 bucks (from a few different online retailers).


does anyone have experience with both, or one of them and care to share their story? keep in mind that im a first time AR15 builder, if that matters.

ar15barrels
07-18-2007, 10:47 PM
I've run a line of people with closed bottom and open bottom (Vortex, Phantom 28A, etc...) and the difference was significant when you ran them in dusty environments. After a few rounds, you couldn't see through the dust cloud. I don't pick my items because they're cool or "theoretically" functional. I test it and if it makes a difference, I run it.

I have run many 3 gun stages where they make it easy for you to prone out with a bunch of soft silty dust right in front of the firing position.
I have learned to scout for these things and adjust my firing position accordingly.
5-6 rounds when you are 8" off the ground makes the visibility a serious issue right away.
Therefore I will try to be at least a foot off the ground and if I can go kneeling or sitting instead and make my hits, I do.

ar15barrels
07-18-2007, 10:57 PM
I see no reason why you would want to go with an open bottom one. Even if it is a "minuscule" advantage, why not run a closed bottom flash suppressor?:confused:

If the ultimate in flash suppression is a requirement, then a non-proportionally balanced design with closed ports on the bottom is not as effective at flash suppression.
I assume you have seen rsilvers test results photos of Vortexes and the various phantoms right?
The "5C" series phantoms throw more sparks than the regular 4 port equal distribution phantom and the Vortex beats them all.

If flash suppression is not a mission requirement, then of course a closed bottom flash suppressor is fine.
At this point, why have a flash suppressor at all?
Why not just run a closed-bottom comp?

ar15barrels
07-18-2007, 11:01 PM
does anyone have experience with both

Go for the CTR with the rubber buttpad option.
For a typical carbine setup without a SOPMOD stock, that's the next best thing going.
The lock feature makes SO MUCH difference.
It's worth the extra money.

blackrifle
07-18-2007, 11:49 PM
If the ultimate in flash suppression is a requirement, then a non-proportionally balanced design with closed ports on the bottom is not as effective at flash suppression.
I assume you have seen rsilvers test results photos of Vortexes and the various phantoms right?
The "5C" series phantoms throw more sparks than the regular 4 port equal distribution phantom and the Vortex beats them all.

If flash suppression is not a mission requirement, then of course a closed bottom flash suppressor is fine.
At this point, why have a flash suppressor at all?
Why not just run a closed-bottom comp?

Yes, I have seen rsilver's test. As a matter of fact, here's a photo of the Vortex vs. Open Bottom Phantom vs. Closed Bottom Phantom vs. USGI A2. You guys can be the judge...

http://i9.tinypic.com/6gsoapx.jpg

While you are correct in that the Vortex does suppress the most, you can see by these photos that it's marginal especially when you compare it to a standard A2. The difference between the 5C's and the standard open bottom Phantoms is even less.

Brakes on the other hand, offer ABSOLUTELY no flash suppression while increasing (or more correctly, redirecting) noise for the shooter and any poor soul sitting next to them.

I have learned to scout for these things and adjust my firing position accordingly.
This isn't always a luxury you can afford. Sometimes, you might just need to drop where you are and start shootin'. I'd love to always be shooting from behind a nice piece of MIL A 12560 standard armor plate but that doesn't always happen either...:D

5-6 rounds when you are 8" off the ground makes the visibility a serious issue right away.
So again, it goes back to less dust kick up and great flash suppression. What's not to like?:)

Go for the CTR with the rubber buttpad option.
For a typical carbine setup without a SOPMOD stock, that's the next best thing going.
The lock feature makes SO MUCH difference.
It's worth the extra money.

+1 on that...I run SOPMODs and CTR's exclusively on my AR's. I'm also waiting for the Magpul UBR for my more accurate AR rigs.

Jicko
07-19-2007, 12:09 AM
now, all i need to figure out is what stock to get. i've narrowed it down to a 6-position, or a CTR.

6-positions run anywhere from $70 (for a Stag Arms) to $117 (for an LMT).

CTRs are about $90-$95 bucks (from a few different online retailers).


CTR @ $90-$95 does NOT come with the buffer tube, buffer spring and buffer. You would need to get that separately.

The prices on the 6pos tact stock you quoted above, is probably including those.

hossb7
07-19-2007, 5:43 PM
CTR @ $90-$95 does NOT come with the buffer tube, buffer spring and buffer. You would need to get that separately.

The prices on the 6pos tact stock you quoted above, is probably including those.
interesting. how much would a CTR be with everything included?

edit: i think i saw packs of the other stuff for like $50, is that about right?