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View Full Version : Really disappointed with my Sig 516 and the service so far (also, help!)


CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:13 PM
Update: I called Sig again this morning and was firm with the CS rep. They sent me a pre-paid shipping label. I think I'll let the pros look at it.

So my Sig 516 misfires a lot. I haven't been keeping count, but it is at least 1/10 times, and maybe more.

It either 1) misfeeds and doesn't fire at all, or 2) doesn't lock open on empty.

I was told by my instructor that it was probably a mag issue, so now I have tried multiple different mags. Pmags, GI mags, other GI mags. They all have the issues to an unacceptable extent.

I called Sig Sauer, and they were rather dismissive, and told me it was a mag issue but otherwise said nothing.

I read online that it is probably an issue with the buffer/buffer spring. Someone at the range today looked at my buffer and said it looks like it sticks out too far. Not knowing much about the internals, I am posting pictures in the hopes that someone can help diagnosis this issue.

I have tried PMC .223 ball, PMC .223 green tip, Federal XM855, Federal XM193, and Hornady TAP 62 gr.

A full album of this sad gun is available here: https://plus.google.com/photos/109357190304557557947/albums/5791528984260248417

Help appreciated, and let me know if a specific picture would help -- take it and post it.

AleksandreCz
09-23-2012, 5:22 PM
What kind of ammo are you running ?

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:27 PM
I have tried PMC .223 ball, PMC .223 green tip, Federal XM855, Federal XM193, and Hornady TAP 62 gr.

None of them have worked properly. The Hornady TAP was slightly better than the others.

Vepr 54R
09-23-2012, 5:29 PM
what is the story with the dinged cartridge?

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:30 PM
what is the story with the dinged cartridge?

That was one of the misfeeds. It was sorta stuck under the bolt and I had to yank really hard to get it clear. :(

That one was PMC green tip.

sweetpit
09-23-2012, 5:31 PM
You should post a YouTube video of your 516 using different mags and ammo and also send a copy to Sig and tell the customer rep that its.not the magazine but rather the rifle. Hopefully Sig will be more receptive to helping you.

Also try to get the info of the person helping you so you have somebody you can hold accountable for lack of help.

ChaneRZ
09-23-2012, 5:35 PM
I had a Phase 5 bolt release and didn't lock open. Took it out and it is now working fine. How's the firing pin? Where are you located?

Arteel
09-23-2012, 5:35 PM
Was the gun properly lubed?

AleksandreCz
09-23-2012, 5:36 PM
Have you taken apart the bcg and checked to make sure everything is in proper order?
pass that if you tried several mags that you know have worked perfectly in other guns I would send it back to sig. your buffer looks ok to me but I could be missing something that is only visible in real life. I should not that I am by no means a professional I can only relate to you what I have leared from using and caring for my guns

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:37 PM
I had a Phase 5 bolt release and didn't lock open. Took it out and it is now working fine. How's the firing pin? Where are you located?

I disassembled the entire BCG group after the second time to the range with failures. It looked fine. Can you explain what a Phase 5 bolt release is? This gun is stock from Sig.

Located in beach area of Los Angeles. Pls PM.

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:38 PM
Was the gun properly lubed?

I lubed it with some LimbSaver oil the first time I shot it.

After the failures, I wiped it dry and relubed it with Frog Lube.

Vepr 54R
09-23-2012, 5:39 PM
take the bcg out and take a pic. Then take the bcg apart and take a pic. Then take a pic down the upper.

AleksandreCz
09-23-2012, 5:39 PM
Its an ambidextrious bolt release

ir0nclash86
09-23-2012, 5:40 PM
Do you have it on the proper gas setting?

Vepr 54R
09-23-2012, 5:41 PM
Do you have it on the proper gas setting?

Or is the gas line fouled?

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:46 PM
take the bcg out and take a pic. Then take the bcg apart and take a pic. Then take a pic down the upper.

Done.

AleksandreCz
09-23-2012, 5:49 PM
Do you have it on the proper gas setting?

Everything looks fine to me So would also lean towards this

ChaneRZ
09-23-2012, 5:51 PM
Phase 5 is like the Magpul BAD lever. Don't worry about it. Gas setting should be on 12 o clock position. Don't grease or lube the firing pin and the channel.

Did you try cycling the rifle with snap caps? Does it feed and eject well? No dents on the snap caps?

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 5:59 PM
Updated with pics of the piston system. It was at 12 o clock.

Vepr 54R
09-23-2012, 6:37 PM
You should post a YouTube video of your 516 using different mags and ammo and also send a copy to Sig and tell the customer rep that its.not the magazine but rather the rifle. Hopefully Sig will be more receptive to helping you.

Also try to get the info of the person helping you so you have somebody you can hold accountable for lack of help.

This is what I'd do

AleksandreCz
09-23-2012, 6:41 PM
Is sig realy that awful wit Customer service that you have to make a youtube video before they fix your gun ?

digdug74
09-23-2012, 8:19 PM
That dented round would seem to suggest to me at least that the rifle is short stroking. The BCG isn't coming back far enough and / or long enough to consistently allow the next round in the magazine to pop up and be stripped cleanly into the chamber. When you get that dent in the round it indicates the lug on the bolt isn't solidly connecting with the back rim of the cartrige on it's forward stroke and is essentially riding over the top of the round, rather than "pushing" it into the chamber the way it's supposed to. As such, there either isn't enough force (i.e, gas pressue) pushing the BCG all the way to the rear, or there's too much resistance (i.e., recoil spring) preventing the BCG from coming fully back.

I was looking at the Sig516 owner's manual on line. You indicated you had the gas system set at the 12 o'clock position (i.e., position 1, or "normal"). I'd open it up to position 2, which is essentially an "overgas" postion and see what happens. I bet that solves your problems. If it doesn't, send it back to Sig.

CALawyer
09-23-2012, 11:21 PM
That dented round would seem to suggest to me at least that the rifle is short stroking. The BCG isn't coming back far enough and / or long enough to consistently allow the next round in the magazine to pop up and be stripped cleanly into the chamber. When you get that dent in the round it indicates the lug on the bolt isn't solidly connecting with the back rim of the cartrige on it's forward stroke and is essentially riding over the top of the round, rather than "pushing" it into the chamber the way it's supposed to. As such, there either isn't enough force (i.e, gas pressue) pushing the BCG all the way to the rear, or there's too much resistance (i.e., recoil spring) preventing the BCG from coming fully back.

I was looking at the Sig516 owner's manual on line. You indicated you had the gas system set at the 12 o'clock position (i.e., position 1, or "normal"). I'd open it up to position 2, which is essentially an "overgas" postion and see what happens. I bet that solves your problems. If it doesn't, send it back to Sig.

To be frank, I have no intention of running my rifle "out of spec"....

I guess I will have to send it back to Sig Sauer. I am going to call them tomorrow and see what they say.

myk
09-24-2012, 12:28 AM
It isn't out of 'spec if it's a built-in setting on the gun. My Ruger 556e has the same system, I think. You're supposed to be able to tinker with the gas system...

jcwatchdog
09-24-2012, 12:35 AM
Is that gun brand new? I don't have a 516 but I do have a 716, which is basically the same just in 7.62.

Is the frog lube you're using the liquid or the paste? Don't use the paste :P

Buy a can of break free clp, don't use the frog lube. Spray it down well with the break free and just let it set for 10 minutes. Wipe it all off and then apply another light coat to everything mentioned in the manual (lube points). Make sure all that thick packing grease is cleaned from in and around the gas rings, and make sure they are spaced apart properly when you reassemble it.

This rifle is packed with so much oil/grease out of the box that it takes more than one cleaning if you don't do it well the first time.

AleksandreCz
09-24-2012, 12:36 AM
To the best of my Understanding The large whole was made for clearing out the fouling and fix short stroking Sig doesnt recomend that you opperate the rifle continuosly in that position But It might solve your problem

ChaneRZ
09-24-2012, 12:38 AM
Or experiment... I have another upper but it is a DI one. I use that too on my Sig 516 lower. No problems at all also. You could try that. There is something wrong with your upper probably.

Don't use grease on the BCG and the bolt. The rifle can run dry compare to a DI system.

MrPlink
09-24-2012, 2:39 AM
Or experiment... I have another upper but it is a DI one. I use that too on my Sig 516 lower. No problems at all also. You could try that. There is something wrong with your upper probably.

Don't use grease on the BCG and the bolt. The rifle can run dry compare to a DI system.

Unless you have a failzero bcg or similar why the hell would you not lube up your rifle?
Just because you have a piston does not mean that you no longer have metal moving on metal.

ChaneRZ
09-24-2012, 2:46 AM
Just saying. Maybe his grease gunks up the bcg and experience FT feed/fire. I use froglube btw.

sweetpit
09-24-2012, 3:17 AM
Is sig realy that awful wit Customer service that you have to make a youtube video before they fix your gun ?

Ive been hearing a few complaints about Sig's CS lately. Seems like posting your complaints publicly esp on YouTube gets the ball rolling.

geeknow
09-24-2012, 5:22 AM
Take it back to wherever you bought it, and enlist their help. The LGS may have some pull, either with Sig direct, or their distributor, that you just dont have.

I understand that part of your frustration is with a lack of response from Sig.

Enlisting your LGS's help will ultimately get you back on the range quicker.

Good luck.

JDW67
09-24-2012, 9:56 AM
Wait, a Sig that is a POS??? After the 556 fiasco, I will never buy another Sig. I've heard from quite a few people on how far Sig has fallen...

bighead
09-24-2012, 10:02 AM
Took mine out yesterday, 200 rds of ragged holes and zero problems.If there is something wrong with your rifle send it back to Sig.My Sig 522 had issues last year I called them and they gladly shipped out the parts I needed free of charge.

BMWguy206
09-24-2012, 10:19 AM
Try a regular carbine buffer with the X193 ammo. I had something similar happening to my gun and going with a lighter buffer fixed it.

CALawyer
09-24-2012, 10:21 AM
I called Sig again this morning and was firm with the CS rep. They sent me a pre-paid shipping label. I think I'll let the pros look at it.

FeuerFrei
09-24-2012, 10:23 AM
OP,
Try this upper on another "known good" AR receiver and test again.
* BTW you troubleshoot this like any other AR. DI or GP.
This rifle comes with H buffer. Try carbine buffer and test again.
Gas valve screwed in all the way."flush" and backed off to desired setting? Not flush may be causing gas pressure drop.
If it still gags and won't run. Send it back for warranty work.
Local dealer that sold it to you should send it back for you. Or you pay them to do it.

Cadre
09-24-2012, 10:24 AM
BBB will get the ball rolling faster.

CALawyer
09-24-2012, 10:38 AM
BBB will get the ball rolling faster.

That was going to be the next step.

Also, you have a really big rifle... lol

Cadre
09-24-2012, 10:48 AM
you have a really big rifle... lol

Thats what she said lol.

gat
09-24-2012, 10:50 AM
I don't know how lightly loaded PMC is compared to something like M855, but trying M855 and trying the PMC on the higher gas setting is what I'd do next.

CALawyer
09-24-2012, 11:21 AM
Thats what she said lol.

lol

glock7
09-25-2012, 6:43 AM
keep us posted, i'm curious as to what sig will say the problem is/was after they look at it. i'm on the fence about getting one.

Manaan
10-25-2012, 9:14 PM
Man I'm having the same ****ing problem with my SIG 516. I can't shoot TulAmmo or Wolf. Can't shoot Winchester 5.56 50g frangibles. Can't shoot any ammo labeled .223. Only thing my SIG likes is Fed XM855 62g stuff (the ones that come in 420 round cans). You think if I can tighten up the buffer tube (it seems to be a few turns too far back, shouldn't the buffer retainer pin be flush with the end of the buffer tube?) it'll fix the problem?

Mine seems to stick out like yours, but not as far.

BMWguy206
10-25-2012, 9:24 PM
Man I'm having the same ****ing problem with my SIG 516. I can't shoot TulAmmo or Wolf. Can't shoot Winchester 5.56 50g frangibles. Can't shoot any ammo labeled .223. Only thing my SIG likes is Fed XM855 62g stuff (the ones that come in 420 round cans). You think if I can tighten up the buffer tube (it seems to be a few turns too far back, shouldn't the buffer retainer pin be flush with the end of the buffer tube?) it'll fix the problem?

Mine seems to stick out like yours, but not as far.

How many total rounds have you shot so far?

Manaan
10-26-2012, 1:01 AM
How many total rounds have you shot so far?

200 random .223 rounds + 3 cans of 420 Federal XM855... so about 1,500 so far. I should be past the break in period by now.

Really starting to get jealous of my buddies Saiga that he converted over to AK assault rifle style. I've also read other people posts (other forums) that their SIG 516's will eat any ammo they throw at it. I've also read some people have had to "break in" their rifles.

I'm also thinking about going through the SIG CS gauntlet at this point, or selling it and getting a Saiga if worse comes to worse.

Cadre
10-26-2012, 1:44 AM
200 random .223 rounds + 3 cans of 420 Federal XM855... so about 1,500 so far. I should be past the break in period by now.

Really starting to get jealous of my buddies Saiga that he converted over to AK assault rifle style. I've also read other people posts (other forums) that their SIG 516's will eat any ammo they throw at it. I've also read some people have had to "break in" their rifles.

I'm also thinking about going through the SIG CS gauntlet at this point, or selling it and getting a Saiga if worse comes to worse.

"Resistance is futile"

socal619
10-26-2012, 4:45 AM
I had a 556 that was jamming like a mofo sent it back to sig, they did something with the gas system and sent it back damaged. My gas adjustment knob was completely fused to the rod. I tried pliers and everything to break it free and was in a position that I couldn't assemble the rifle again...so another 45 min drive to the ups hub to send it out since ups stores won't take firearms I guess....they did send me 4 mags for my trouble tho! And after it worked flawlessly.

Manaan
10-26-2012, 1:14 PM
I had a 556 that was jamming like a mofo sent it back to sig, they did something with the gas system and sent it back damaged. My gas adjustment knob was completely fused to the rod. I tried pliers and everything to break it free and was in a position that I couldn't assemble the rifle again...so another 45 min drive to the ups hub to send it out since ups stores won't take firearms I guess....they did send me 4 mags for my trouble tho! And after it worked flawlessly.

Man that does not reassure me at all lol. But at least you got 4 free mags out of it!

HK35
10-26-2012, 2:16 PM
Try a regular carbine buffer with the X193 ammo.

+1 to what he said! Sound slike the OPs gun is short stroking.

socal619
10-26-2012, 2:39 PM
Man that does not reassure me at all lol. But at least you got 4 free mags out of it!

Moral of the story is they fixed it in the end and it shot everything brass steel and everything. It didn't give a damn lol. It just sucked that they only use ups and they don't take guns at their stores. Magnum research uses fed ex and their stores will take em but no free stuff for my trouble lol.

boonyah
10-26-2012, 2:41 PM
I experienced these same issue with my adams arms piston upper. When it came down to what the problem was it was the BAD lever i had attatched to the gun. The second i took it off the weapon ran perfectly fine.

Manaan
10-26-2012, 3:59 PM
I ordered a standard weight BCM Carbine buffer. I read on another forum that sometimes ARs have issues with underpowered ammo and an H buffer (like the stock H buffer that SIG 516 has.)

I'll keep you guys updated when I get it in.

walmart_ar15
10-26-2012, 6:52 PM
Not familiar with the Sig 516. Does it all come with the BCG that has lighten cuts in it? Why use a H-buffer then lighten the BCG?

The ring dent on the H-buffer's surface is not a good sign. It would suggest the BCG is not in 100% contact with the buffer when in battery or BCG is bouncing. It shouldn't affect functioning, but may loose slight reliability, and it may eventually trash your buffer.

Your buffer tube looks fine. As long as it holds down the buffur detent it will be fine. Another turn may not align the buffer tube in the right position. Buffer is supposed to come out the tube a little. It is to ensure 100% contact with the BCG when the action is closed. (BCG will compress the buffer into the tube. Assuming the BCG is flush with the upper reciever)

Other things to check would be your op rod (the rod connected to the gas piston that pushes on the BCG). If it is slightly bend, then it can bind and cause insufficient push, ie shortstroke. There is also the gas port itself. If not the proper sized, there will be insufficient gas pressure. The gas regulating knob can also be out of spec, or the entire gas system maybe out of alignment with the gas port. etc... These are the reasons why I stay with DI systems, a lot less parts that can go wrong IMHO.

Hopefully Sig makes it right for you. My experience with their repair on 556 was less than stellar, took two trips to make it just acceptable to shoot, but still less accurate then my frankenAR with cheap internet parts.

L84CABO
10-27-2012, 4:57 PM
Also, you have a really big rifle... lol

Oh it's not that big. It actually looks a little small...to me. :43:

Ak707
10-28-2012, 12:17 AM
My 516 had a few ftf in the first 50 rounds thru it. I cleaned all the packing grease out if it, lubed it back up and has been flawless since with about 6-7k rounds thru it. It eats anything. No problems at all. Awesome gun!!

bighead
10-28-2012, 12:34 AM
I am heading out tomorrow to run a few hundred rounds through mine.I've yet to experience a failure, it sucks to hear others aren't having the same experience.I've used wolf .223 exclusively because its cheap.

HKDoc
10-28-2012, 11:44 AM
Sig will make it right. That's why the have the lifetime warranty.

Good luck.

bighead
10-28-2012, 9:07 PM
I put another 200 ish downrage today without issue, I even ran several mags back to back and got the rifle hot to see if I could get a fte, needless to say it ran like a sewing machine.

Manaan
10-31-2012, 8:11 PM
Keeping you guys updated on my situation.

Just got a BCM standard wieght buffer and a BCM standard carbine spring. I'll try to head out to the range or river bar this weekend with some wolf or tulammo .223, maybe some remi .223 as well.

to backtrack a bit--
I also forgot to mention that I also occasionally have issues even with 5.56 federal XM rounds as well. sometimes it just wont feed, and when i tap-rack-bang it still wont feed. sometimes the FTFeed is so bad that the bolt will dent the top round. don't have any pics of those casings as i tend to just leave them.

Inquirer
10-31-2012, 8:21 PM
You should post a YouTube video of your 516 using different mags and ammo and also send a copy to Sig and tell the customer rep that its.not the magazine but rather the rifle. Hopefully Sig will be more receptive to helping you.

Also try to get the info of the person helping you so you have somebody you can hold accountable for lack of help.

Lol, if it comes to that in order to get his obviously malfunctioning rifle serviced by the company that made it, consider me never buying a Sig ever.

kcjr1125
11-01-2012, 7:36 AM
my sig 556 patrol runs with no problems at all. will eat anything i give it. just send it back for them to fix and ask for freebies for your troubles.

Renaissance Redneck
11-01-2012, 7:51 AM
I have a relatively short relationship with Sig; and I have been on a Sig owner's forum for a bit too. It seems to be that an informal consensus is that Sig customer service is damn good. And, they will continue to tweak a malfunctioning firearm until it works, or they will send you a new one. I'm wondering if you caught a CS rep on a bad day?

I just bought a new Sig handgun and had some FTF problems right off the bat; a 5 minute call to Sig, very few questions asked, and 2 minutes later I had Federal Express shipping label for return of my gun to the factory. Easy as that.

CrippledPidgeon
11-06-2012, 6:50 PM
I'm going to ask a question that should have been asked much much earlier:

If you insert an empty mag, will it lock back when you pull the charging handle? If no, then it's a mag problem, or an obstruction in the buffer tube. If yes, it's not.

Without seeing the pictures, the next two problems that it could be are: short-stroking (the bolt isn't moving far enough back for it to catch), or the bcg has too much gas and it's outrunning the magazine spring. Either one of these problems will cause the bolt overrun problem (failure to feed, and denting the round).

Knowing that you have (had) an H buffer in the gun, I'd say that it's not likely that the bcg is moving too quickly (if you had a BAD lever, or something, that could also cause the bolt to outrun the catch). So that means you're probably short stroking.

This could be a bunch of things - undergassing, friction of the bcg on the inside of the receiver,friction of the bcg on the magazine, friction inside the buffer tube, friction in the piston... it'd be worth it to meticulously clean everything, and eliminate a bunch of these things. Look for odd or uneven wear, that would indicate the bolt tilting, or something something out of spec.

At this point, it's all academic because I don't have your gun in front of me. Just be systematic in trying to fix your problem. Do everything one at a time so you can eliminate everything that's not causing it to not run properly.

Aceman58
11-06-2012, 9:53 PM
I replied on the other POST, but here it is again...

Check your piston block to barrel gas port hole alignment. If this is off center, you will get a smaller hole thus weak gas bleed off to the piston. This can cause short stroking and not allow the bolt carrier from it's full movement back to strip and grab another round out of the mag.. this appears to me to be your issue, well best I can do withoug seeing or operating your weapon... Good luck.
Aceman58

Aceman58
11-13-2012, 9:16 PM
Any update on your situation??? Interested in the solution on your situation.. Been thinking about it and saw no updates... Good luck.

ljgrasso
11-13-2012, 11:15 PM
My 516 had a few ftf in the first 50 rounds thru it. I cleaned all the packing grease out if it, lubed it back up and has been flawless since with about 6-7k rounds thru it. It eats anything. No problems at all. Awesome gun!!

Similar issue with me, after a good cleaning it is flawless.

DvlFig
11-19-2012, 10:14 AM
OP, any updates? I'm thinking about getting this rifle :)