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TwinStick
09-21-2012, 11:18 PM
I understand the pre-'64 model is far more desired, but why and how can I tell which one I inherited?

Is the SN the only way to tell if it's pre or post '64?

It is a 300 Win Mag which if what I read is true, that cartridge was invented in '63, so chances are my rifle is post '64, yes?

This was my grandfather's Alaskan moose hunting rifle. He moved to AK in about '45 and his eldest child was born in 1951. I was told he hunted moose for the family meat source. Later he became quite wealthy by building his own business so I don't think he hunted after about 1970. So I'm going to guess the rifle was made in the mid sixtees.

Is there anything that should be updated for safety or reliability reasons?

Is there anything that famously makes the rifle far better?

Thank you all knowing Calguns!

30Cal
09-22-2012, 4:06 AM
The pre-64 has a Mauser type extractor; "controlled round feed." That means you can stop halfway into the chamber, yank the bolt back and the round that was feeding will get jerked out and tossed. This is viewed as more desireable on a big-game rifle.

After that, they went to a push feed system (which works just fine).

It's got the name "Winchester" on the side. That should be enough.


Here's the pre-64 bolt and extractor:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm160/30CalTy/IMG_0875.jpg

joemoia
09-22-2012, 4:34 AM
Winchester has an online data base listing mfg year/serial numbers of it various models. You can find out what year your model 70 was manufactured.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/library/articles/detail.asp?id=401

Fjold
09-22-2012, 7:13 AM
Pull the boly out and look at it. If the bolt is smooth and round with no external pieces on it it's a post 64. The pre-64's and the "Classic" action bolts have big (4" long) extractors mounted on the side of the bolt that bends over the bolt face and holds the round in place against the front of the bolt.

TwinStick
09-24-2012, 9:10 AM
According to the serial number the rifle was manufactured in 1949, but I read that the 300 Win Mag cartridge wasn't developed until 1963. I guess I'll have to wait until I get the rifle home to do some more research.

toby
09-24-2012, 3:21 PM
You only need to know it's the best damn rifle ever conceived!....:thumbsup:

30Cal
09-24-2012, 3:43 PM
Maybe it was rebarrelled.

wjc
09-24-2012, 3:48 PM
Maybe it was rebarrelled.

This is what I was thinking.

BTW, the new 70's have a 3 stage safety...safe, intermediate, and fire.

Still, the best gun on the market....

:43:

Fjold
09-24-2012, 4:28 PM
The new model 70s have the "Classic" action which includes the controlled round feed bolt, one piece bottom metal, three position safety, etc. of the pre-64 action.

smog7
09-24-2012, 4:28 PM
Interesting thread, I thought "post 64s" had the same actions, but were just considered to be ugly.

30Cal
09-24-2012, 4:50 PM
This is what I was thinking.

BTW, the new 70's have a 3 stage safety...safe, intermediate, and fire.

Still, the best gun on the market....

:43:

I think the 3 position safety's been around forever.

ucsdryder
09-24-2012, 4:51 PM
I have a pre and my buddy has a post. The post seems cheaper. Everything seems looser and not as solid.

Fjold
09-24-2012, 4:56 PM
Model 70 Classic
Actually there were about 4 action variants starting in 1964:

From Wiki:

Post '64 Model 70 Action (Push Feed)

In order to reduce manufacturing costs in the face of higher labour rates, rifles manufactured from 1964 to 1992 differed from early Model 70s in the following ways:
The bolt was changed significantly. The bolt face was enclosed so that it fully surrounded the cartridge rim, in a similar way to the Remington 700 bolt. While cheaper to manufacture than the undercut bolt face needed for controlled feed actions, it is also stronger, providing more support to the cartridge case head, and better contains escaping gases in the event of a case rupture. The new bolt also differed from the old in that it was manufactured in 2 pieces (bolt-handle/collar and the bolt body[7]) and then brazed together.
The Mauser-inspired, non-rotating claw extractor (incompatible with a fully enclosed bolt head) was eliminated, and replaced with a small wedge-shaped extractor located within a lug of the bolt head. This type of extractor does not engage the cartridge rim as it rises from the magazine into the action, but rather clips over the cartridge rim after the cartridge has been pushed into the chamber and the bolt handle is turned down. This system is more vulnerable than the old system to jamming or being inadvertently closed on an empty breech (i.e. failing to load a new round) if operated under duress, especially if the rifle is held upside down or on its side. In addition, the old extractor design served to stabilize the bolt while the action was open; without it, the new bolt did not have any such stabilization, and wobbled while fully open. This has since been fixed in later rifles, but it was nevertheless an obvious departure and certainly less elegant in function than the earlier models, which allowed the rifle to chamber cartidges smoothly from any position.
Barrels were now rifled by hammer forging, rather than the more costly process of being cut by hand.
The machined steel trigger guard and floor plate were replaced with parts stamped from an aluminium alloy to reduce weight using the assembly from the pre-1964 Featherweight version.
Some earlier models featured walnut stocks with checkering that was impressed onto the wood rather than cut into it as on the early Model 70s, further reducing manufacturing costs at the expense of a less positive grip on the rifle, particularly if the shooter is wearing gloves.

Any Model 70 rifle made since that is not designated as a "Classic" model is likely to have this post-'64 action. In design terms (enclosed bolt face, plunger ejector, brazed bolt construction) the new action itself was comparable in design to the competing Remington Model 700, which has a worldwide following and is considered to be very reliable. When coupled with the other cost-cutting changes and compared with the previously produced and very familiar Model 70, however, it was immediately declared to be lacking. The new design of the rifle was swiftly and severely criticized by both gun writers and riflemen alike for its perceived lesser amount of control and feed issues, making the original action much more prized.

That said, it should be noted that the post-'64 action has been further improved over the years. Thanks to a refined bolt head design, the bolt is now less wobbly when open, and the action is now generally considered on par with the CRF action. Under normal conditions, the action's new design is no less reliable, and although the simplified construction is certainly less elegant, some of the changes could be considered improvements, having made the action stronger [8]. Also, the pressed checkering, one of the most reviled changes, was likewise done away with as soon as machine-cut checkering became available. All things considered, in normal situations there is now not much to choose between the two versions at present, apart from personal preference.

[edit] 1968 Model 70

In 1968 further revisions were made to the Model 70 in part to address consumer concerns.[9] An "anti-bind" feature was introduced to make operation of the action smoother, which comprised a groove in an extended right locking lug operating on a rib on the right side of the receiver. This made the action noticeably smoother to operate and has been retained to the present day. A steel floorplate and stainless magazine follower were introduced, partially revoking changes introduced in the 1964 model. The alloy trigger guard was retained.

[edit] 1992 to 2006 Model 70

Starting in 1992, Winchester re-introduced many features of the pre-'64 rifles, while also continuing to manufacture less expensive variants. The Post-'92 Model 70 is an extensive rifle line that boasts nearly all of the features of the original line, but with some updated equipment, such as the Controlled Round Push Feed action and synthetic stocks. The popular Shadow variants feature black resin stocks, which reduce the price of the firearm significantly, and hold up better than wood stocks over time. Some of the modern rifles also use high performance McMillan or Bell and Carlson fiberglass stocks, though these rifles tend to be expensive. Particular models feature a one-piece aluminum pillar block bedding for greater accuracy, and some models have fluting of the barrel to reduce weight and vent the barrel for additional cooling. Carbon fiber barrels are also found on select models to reduce weight and dissipate heat faster. Walnut stocks are still found across the line in satin finishes, and laminated walnut stocks are added to the mix for structural stability in extreme dry or wet conditions. The Model 70 is offered in all of the previous chamberings as the original, and is now supplemented with newer rounds, including the Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) and Winchester Super Short Magnum (WSSM) cartridges, which are magnum loaded rounds, but are shorter in length and wider in diameter, so spent cartridges take less time to eject and use less powder. However, these short magnum cartridges reduce magazine capacity and feeding reliability, due to their extra width and rebated rim.

[edit] Model 70 Classic

In 1992, Winchester began producing a controlled round feed Model 70 that was marketed as the "Classic" model. This version reintroduced the CRF feature, while retaining the "anti-bind" locking lug groove bolt guide of the 1968 push feed model. The use of modern CNC manufacturing techniques allowed Winchester to re-introduce the CRF feature at a competitive price.

Renaissance Redneck
09-25-2012, 7:01 AM
This is viewed as more desireable on a big-game rifle.


I think this is only partially true. Controlled feed rifles ARE considered desirable when hunting DANGEROUS game; some African PH's don't trust push feed rifles for this purpose. I won't get into the reasons for this in this thread.

When your game is not trying to eat you, then the practical differences between controlled feed and push feed disappear; for hunting purposes anyway.

There are other advantages and disadvantages to either feed system, but I'll leave that for another thread!

kendog4570
09-25-2012, 8:04 AM
I have a 1972 pattern push feed M70 Target that is slicker and smoother than any pre-64 I have ever tried. And I have tried a few. The ones made between 64 and 72 can be a little on the rough and cheesy side, but the later guns, both push and controlled feed, are every bit as good as the pre-64 guns.

TwinStick
09-25-2012, 8:13 AM
This is what I was thinking.

BTW, the new 70's have a 3 stage safety...safe, intermediate, and fire.

Still, the best gun on the market....

:43:

I was also thinking that it might have had the barrel swapped, but that doesn't sound like something my Opa would have done. Perhaps my Dad read the serial number incorrectly when he gave it to me. Regardless, I'll find out soon.

I think the pre-64's have a different 2-stage safety that blocks the sight picture when the safety is on. Post-64's have the 3-stage safety.

Do they both have the adjustable trigger?

kendog4570
09-25-2012, 9:03 AM
I think the pre-64's have a different 2-stage safety that blocks the sight picture when the safety is on. Post-64's have the 3-stage safety.

Negative. They all have the typical 3 pos safety. The safety lever and bolt shroud was a little different on the first year(s) of Mfg.

Do they both have the adjustable trigger?
The trigger is typical throughout all production, with the exception of the newest "MOA" trigger.

TwinStick
09-25-2012, 10:36 AM
Cool. Can't wait to shoot it and reload that 300 Win Mag!

wjc
09-25-2012, 12:37 PM
Negative. They all have the typical 3 pos safety. The safety lever and bolt shroud was a little different on the first year(s) of Mfg.


The trigger is typical throughout all production, with the exception of the newest "MOA" trigger.

Interesting. I was under the impression the 3 position safety was a new feature
for the post-64's. I guess it just proves the evils of marketing!

TwinStick
09-25-2012, 12:40 PM
Interesting. I was under the impression the 3 position safety was a new feature
for the post-64's. I guess it just proves the evils of marketing!

Wikipedia agrees with Kendog regarding the safety:

"Pre '64 Model 70 Action (Controlled Round Feed, CRF)

The original Model 70 quickly established an excellent reputation with American sportsmen. It was a high-quality action of considerable strength, with 2 forward locking lugs and a Mauser-type non-rotating claw extractor. The key benefit of the Mauser-type extractor compared to later versions is that it captures the rim of a cartridge as it is fed upwards from the magazine and controls its journey forward into the rifle's chamber. This feed is called "controlled round feeding" and is favored by a number of shooters who prefer rifles to feed reliably, especially those who pursue dangerous game. The ejector was of the blade type similar to that of the Mauser 98, but considered superior as it did not require a Mauser-type slot through the left locking lug; instead there was a slot in the bolt face below the locking lug, leaving both forward lugs solid and hence stronger. The main benefit of the blade type ejector is it is simpler and perhaps more reliable (being considered less susceptible to ingress of foreign matter) when compared to the later post-'64 plunger ejector in the bolt face controlled by a coil spring.

Other significant features of this action include a three position wing type safety (retained throughout Model 70 production), a cone breeching system that helps prevent bullet nose damage while loading a cartridge from the magazine, machined steel trigger guard and floor plate, one piece bolt construction, and a trigger adjustable for pull weight and over-travel. This model has been proposed by the Alaskan senate as the official state firearm for its widespread usage during the taming of the great land."

Sweet! Now I'll have the "official state firearm" from my home state!!

kendog4570
09-25-2012, 1:03 PM
Wikipedia agrees with Kendog regarding the safety:


I get one right every once in a while. :cool:

30Cal
09-25-2012, 1:35 PM
I think this is only partially true. Controlled feed rifles ARE considered desirable when hunting DANGEROUS game; some African PH's don't trust push feed rifles for this purpose. I won't get into the reasons for this in this thread.

When your game is not trying to eat you, then the practical differences between controlled feed and push feed disappear; for hunting purposes anyway.

There are other advantages and disadvantages to either feed system, but I'll leave that for another thread!

I've got both and love them equally.

InkHammer
09-25-2012, 4:25 PM
I am actually looking at picking up a Ted Williams model 53 , which was a Sears branded model 70. The guy claims it is pre '64, and I am wondering if there are pre '64 Ted Williams 53's? It is a .30-06, and was his grandpas . I am checking it out this weekend and he is sending me detailed pics do hopefully I can check serial numbers.

GM4spd
09-25-2012, 4:56 PM
Pictured is a pre 64 Supergrade in 220SWIFT from about 1958---ever
have a gun you REGRETTED selling?? This was it!!!I shot 5 shots into an
1-1/4" @ 200 yds at ASR with my handloads, I sold it to a man in
Woodlands Hills in 1999 for $1500. Yes,I am stupid!:D Pete

http://fototime.com/460F897FC02CEEA/standard.jpg

toby
09-25-2012, 5:30 PM
I have a 1952 pre 64. Featherweight in 308, I retired it two years ago. I am the second owner so makes it kinda cool for me.

Winchester47
09-26-2012, 7:30 AM
TwinStick

“It is a 300 Win Mag which if what I read is true, that cartridge was invented in '63, so chances are my rifle is post '64, yes?”
“According to the serial number the rifle was manufactured in 1949, but I read that the 300 Win Mag cartridge wasn't developed until 1963. I guess I'll have to wait until I get the rifle home to do some more research.”

It is most likely a 300 H&H which was introduced in 1937. In some of the years prior to the introduction of the 300 Win Mag a Winchester model 70 with a barrel marked 300 magnum was a 300 H&H. Of course stuff happens and many of the old 300 H&H were rechambered to the 300 Weatherby, stocks cut for recoil pads, holes drilled for side mounts etc. Hopefully it is unmolested.
It sounds like a nice old gun with some family history and a keeper - you are a lucky man.

TwinStick
09-26-2012, 9:00 AM
Thanks Winchester47, I honestly don't think my Grandfather would have had a new barrel put on it. He would have bought the caliber he needed to hunt moose originally. If something had to be replaced because of damage or something though, he would have had it fixed rather than buying new. A depression era mindset. The only other thing I know about it is that there is a scope on it. I'm told it's clean and has been properly stored and cared for. Can't wait to get it.

30Cal
09-26-2012, 1:48 PM
I have a 1952 pre 64. Featherweight in 308, I retired it two years ago. I am the second owner so makes it kinda cool for me.

Retired a RIFLE??? whoever heard of such an absurd thing!? Send it here--I'll put it to work.

toby
09-26-2012, 3:01 PM
Retired a RIFLE??? whoever heard of such an absurd thing!? Send it here--I'll put it to work.

Well it's really ugly and abused.

Fjold
09-26-2012, 5:36 PM
Like Winchester47 said it is probably a 300 H&H, many guns were marked "300 Magnum" which screws people up now.

The 300 H&H case is longer but the 300 Win Mag is wider at the shoulder so you can't chamber the incorrect cartridge.

Winchester47
09-26-2012, 5:52 PM
Well it's really ugly and abused.

I agree it is really ugly and abused and old also :oji: -you wouldn't want that rubbing off on your other nice new firearms.

Just so you won't have to put up with it any longer I volunteer to take it off of your hands and provide it a safe, loving home :)

drdarrin@sbcglobal.net
09-26-2012, 6:17 PM
I have a 1952 pre 64. Featherweight in 308, I retired it two years ago. I am the second owner so makes it kinda cool for me.

I have it's big brother in 30-06, also made in 1952, sitting in my safe. It's a little lonely and could use a companion...
Senior citizens like these can always use a little company!

TwinStick
10-19-2012, 9:59 AM
Update** I finally got the old Model 70 yesterday. It is indeed a 300 H&H Magnum (it just says "300 Magnum"). It's in a bit of rough shape. Nothing I can't handle. Here are some pics (sorry for the crappy cell pics, I'll take better ones later):
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/6BEE7985-AC3B-410D-A54D-FD4E6668BD34-13025-00000D6010FAFC9C.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/9B944723-0BFE-4CCA-B8FC-2988C75AB454-13025-00000D601CA7C4B8.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/FF93FD32-DFC5-48FB-BF81-D7E118B45763-13025-00000D6028712FBF.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/7008A6FD-82B9-42C6-B5CE-6B64836B6481-13025-00000D603FDCDA54.jpg

As you can see there has been some neglect. I've starting stripping the stock for tung oil. I'll try electrolysis for the rust and then I'll clean and lube it all up and see how she comes out. The scope is old and rusty, but the model is an "Alaskan" so I have to keep it. :) I'm going to try and salvage it.

paul0660
10-19-2012, 10:42 AM
Threadjack..........I have a early 80's .30-06 that was my dad's, it has a perfect custom stock and I want to put a cheap synthetic on it most of the time. Any suggestions?

SVT-40
10-19-2012, 2:05 PM
As you can see there has been some neglect. I've starting stripping the stock for tung oil. I'll try electrolysis for the rust and then I'll clean and lube it all up and see how she comes out. The scope is old and rusty, but the model is an "Alaskan" so I have to keep it. :) I'm going to try and salvage it.

The Lyman "Alaskan" scopes are very common, so if the scope cannot be repaired it would be pretty easy to replace. Did you determine if it's a pre 64? It looks like the bolt is a "push feed" but it's hard to tell. The scope mount and base which are on your rifle and scope are "ECHO" brand. They were a pretty common base and mount maker in the 50's they also made bases and mounts for the FN-49 sniper rifles. Your mount is a "commercial" model as it has small knobs. A good rugged system for mounting a scope.

Paradiddle
10-19-2012, 2:57 PM
This is what I was thinking.

BTW, the new 70's have a 3 stage safety...safe, intermediate, and fire.

Still, the best gun on the market....

:43:

That is the same action that is on my 51 M70.

Agreed they are fantastic rifles.

TwinStick
10-22-2012, 2:19 PM
The Lyman "Alaskan" scopes are very common, so if the scope cannot be repaired it would be pretty easy to replace. Did you determine if it's a pre 64? It looks like the bolt is a "push feed" but it's hard to tell. The scope mount and base which are on your rifle and scope are "ECHO" brand. They were a pretty common base and mount maker in the 50's they also made bases and mounts for the FN-49 sniper rifles. Your mount is a "commercial" model as it has small knobs. A good rugged system for mounting a scope.

It is pre '64. Manufacture date is in 1949. The scope will be fine. The glass is good and all the adjustments are free and smooth. It just has some surface rust on the tube...muzzle end.

Thanks for all the info. Much appreciated!

BTW, all the rust has been removed and all the metal has been cleaned, oiled and reassembled. The bore is nice and shiny now, and the action is smooth. The stock is almost done. I'll be adding a 4th coat of tung oil finish tonight. Now I just need to save up for some ammo. 300 H&H is not cheap!

morfeeis
10-22-2012, 3:52 PM
I've kept my model 70 at my dads house for years, it was my grandfathers. i always thought it was the classic model due to the sight mounting options. it has two mounting hole drilled on the side for the front sight base and two holes for the rear on the top. I dont have it here to read the serial number, but would that connote anything as far as it's age?

A photo i had saved on my harddrivehttp://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm160/morfeeis/75a12837.jpg

morfeeis
10-22-2012, 4:03 PM
Never mind, found the info i have for it, it was made in the 1940's

TwinStick
10-22-2012, 7:43 PM
That's a nice color on that stock, Morfeeis. Looks like it could be in great shape from that photo.

morfeeis
10-22-2012, 8:11 PM
That's a nice color on that stock, Morfeeis. Looks like it could be in great shape from that photo.
You know how they say tv adds ten pounds, well the camera must take away 30 years. You can't see it in the photo but the barrel has lost almost all it's blueing, it has a few pitt marks, but the stock is kind of ok shape for an almost 70 year old rifle.

Wait sorry, thanks, almost forgot that part

A few more pics here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=455960)

mariley85
10-23-2012, 12:08 AM
All I really know about Model 70s is that I love my .30-06 Supergrade and it's packing for college in New Braunfels, TX.

He should be back soon with a degree in sub-moa studies.

TwinStick
10-24-2012, 7:58 PM
Well, here's what it looks like now:
Before:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/6BEE7985-AC3B-410D-A54D-FD4E6668BD34-13025-00000D6010FAFC9C.jpg
After:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/Model70003.jpg
Before:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/6CF1EC1A-1DCB-4AE5-8052-D95E40FEE8C1-13025-00000D6018C5D5F4.jpg
After:
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/Model70011.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/Model70012.jpg
http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p179/psheikes/Model70010.jpg