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View Full Version : Is my HD (Home Defense) shotgun setup acceptable?


bob7122
09-15-2012, 4:36 PM
I have a 1897 winchester riot shotgun (clone)
with slugs-
(Heavy Field short Magnum,
1 1/4oz,
emerald slug with B.E.T. wad,
1,310 fps at 25 yards,
2,000 energy ft/lbs,
made by Brenneke. )

What do you guys think?
Is it overkill?
Would the slug go through a perp and into a neighbors house?

Meety Peety
09-15-2012, 4:44 PM
Far from my first choice, but it will get the job done. Will it over penetrate? Yes. Will it over penetrate enough to kill a family member who's bedroom happens to be behind the BG? Probably. Since every situation is different, there's no way to measure it. You'll just have to decide whether or not the risk is worth taking.

ucsdryder
09-15-2012, 4:52 PM
Why would you want slugs? I would take 00 or even some lead 4's. A lot more room for error.

ASTMedic
09-15-2012, 5:00 PM
Saw a over penetration demo once. They found the best home defense load is heavy bird shot. Say turkey loads at most. No over penetration on your target and if you miss it will slow significantly after the first layer of wall board.

I have 00 buck but mine is set up for use out side my house since I'm on 10 acres.

coy80176
09-15-2012, 7:24 PM
...OP, to answer your second to last question, "yup"

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

RonnieP
09-15-2012, 7:44 PM
I'm throwing my hat in for #4 buckshot. That stuff is deceptively evil.

BigDogatPlay
09-15-2012, 10:19 PM
Slugs would not be my first choice for personal defense inside a home and not just for the rounds getting outside the walls issue. There is also the thought to be considered that with a slug you need to precisely aim your shots as you're firing a single projectile. If you miss completely, then the slug is going to get outside with that much more energy.

Now before others flame me, I'm not saying that you can just point down the hall with a shot load and expect it to sweep the area clean, that is not the case at all at home defense distances. But with a load of shot (preferably #4 buck or larger) you do have a bit more margin for error, and without as much potential for downrange uncertainty as you would have with a 1300+ fps slug round.

1000stars
09-15-2012, 10:38 PM
Slug defeats the advantage of a shotgun (point and shoot).

negolien
09-15-2012, 11:51 PM
over kill and yes a plan is helpful need info like how many in house nad is it a house? Floor plan stuff like that...

bob7122
09-15-2012, 11:51 PM
okay thanks guys. i will have to do some shopping around for some buck shot.

bob7122
09-15-2012, 11:55 PM
over kill and yes a plan is helpful need info like how many in house nad is it a house? Floor plan stuff like that...

got a plan worked out. my family is gtg on what to do. just need the right tools for the job.

bob7122
09-15-2012, 11:59 PM
Why would you want slugs? I would take 00 or even some lead 4's. A lot more room for error.

because shooting twice is silly :p

Lugiahua
09-16-2012, 12:03 AM
either 00 or 4 is more than enough to bring down any unarmored hostile.

I have two low recoil slugs on the saddle as alternative option, but everything inside the tube is low recoil buck.

Legasat
09-16-2012, 3:34 PM
00 for me, not slugs. Over penetration would be worry for me.

xpbprox
09-16-2012, 3:49 PM
Pics?

ExtremeX
09-16-2012, 3:51 PM
00 buck or #4 buck for me

bill_k_lopez
09-16-2012, 3:59 PM
Guy was shooting an 1170 at Angeles last week. Slugs at 100 yards were rocking that steel with a huge "gong" sound.

Slugs for home defense is not a good choice.

Here's slugs on a steel target @ 200 yards.

ksDWEB3MaYs

ElDub1950
09-16-2012, 4:05 PM
I'm throwing my hat in for #4 buckshot. That stuff is deceptively evil.

^^ +1 - that's the right combo for me too. Note there is a big difference between #4 buckshot and #4 bird shot.

rzstance
09-16-2012, 5:12 PM
Load #4buck for hd just the tube so you have to chamber the round(pretty much for safety but i don't care what people say that crap would scare the crap outta whoever)....keep 5 slugs in a sleeve on the stock in case SHTF...thats my personal choice.

reptilla
09-16-2012, 5:26 PM
I use 7 1/2 bird shot for the first round and 00 buck after ,if the bg is still hostile after the firt shot then hes a dead bg.I would prefer to not have to put a person down ever but the choice is his!

mikajo39
09-16-2012, 6:44 PM
Depends on the slug actually. Now I wouldn't load slugs for home defense in general, too much recoil which slows down your follow up shot. Plus you risk over penetration.

However if you must decide to use slugs I recommend foster style slugs (Winchester super-x,and Remington sluggers are both foster style) due to the fact that they are hollow and don't actually penetrate as much as one might think. Foster Slugs were designed to give rapid and large expansion in game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HuVkXLreWE&feature=plcp
But don't get me wrong, a foster style slug will still readily punch through a 4x4, it'll be mighty deformed coming out the back but it'll still have quite a bit of energy.


Like others have said, number 4 buckshot is nasty stuff and reduced recoil 00bk will drop a BG no problem.

negolien
09-17-2012, 7:27 AM
I would also suggest a password for you and your old lady. That way if you goe to get a sandwich the old lady can call out for a pasword and you don't get shot because she thinks your a BG.

CasperSYTFU
09-17-2012, 8:48 AM
I would also suggest a password for you and your old lady. That way if you goe to get a sandwich the old lady can call out for a pasword and you don't get shot because she thinks your a BG.

Obviously if you were eating a sandwich she would be with you after making it :43:

Colt562
09-17-2012, 10:00 AM
You could even go with birdshot. I know some people that use that. Although I would use 00 buck.

Bert Gamble
09-17-2012, 10:38 AM
I used to think birdshot would be a good HD choice but then I saw that video of the kid who was shot multiple times with it at point blank range and lived to tell the tale.

When I was at a Gray Ops shotgun course a few weeks back, they pointed out that birdshot has difficulty making it through heavy clothing. It might only make a dedicated opponent angry. These guys seem to know what they are talking about.

Add the two together and my shotgun is full of 00 buck.

negolien
09-17-2012, 11:40 AM
Obviously if you were eating a sandwich she would be with you after making it :43:

The point was passwords are good in case one thinks the other is a BG..And let's not get into the ammunition thing so tired of that debate.

5539
09-17-2012, 6:51 PM
First figure out how much drywall you can afford to replace and throw in a few studs and a not so understanding Landlord, if you rent.

Get some training from a qualified instructor and plan from there.

There is a book covering the gun laws and use for California and the sections you don't understand, buy an hours time and talk with an Attorney.

ZigZags
09-17-2012, 8:54 PM
For a shotgun in Home defence you want to use bird shot. Reason being it wont over penetrate but it will have the effect of larger pellets because chances are the range you will be hitting your target will be close enough that the pellets wont expand that much.

Slugs are probably the worst choice in your home. Birdshot sounds silly but trust me, its the way to go.

ZigZags
09-17-2012, 8:55 PM
00 buck is also a good choice.

mandor
09-18-2012, 3:10 PM
slugs are overkill. birdshot is great if you live in an apartment building or don't wanna blast anyone on the other side of the wall. don't get it twisted. a shell or two of #7.5 will definitely stop a guy.

4 buck is also an excellent shell to use. patterns great, and has just enough ooomph to really kiss 'em good.


Shot number diameter (inches) diameter (mm) approx no. of
pellets in 1 oz.
_______________|_____________________|____________ ____|_________________
| | |
000 BUCK | .36 | 9.14 | 6.2
| | |
00 BUCK | .33 | 8.38 | 8
| | |
0 BUCK | .32 | 8.13 | 9
| | |
1 BUCK | .30 | 7.62 | 11
| | |
2 BUCK | .27 | 6.86 | 15
| | |
3 BUCK | .25 | 6.35 | 19
| | |
4 BUCK | .24 | 6.10 | 21
| | |
BB | .18 | 4.57 | 50
| | |
2 | .148 | 3.76 | 90
| | |
4 | .129 | 3.28 | 135
| | |
5 | .120 | 3.05 | 170
| | |
6 | .109 | 2.77 | 225
| | |
7.5 | .094 | 2.39 | 350
| | |
8 | .089 | 2.26 | 410
| | |
8.5 | .085 | 2.16 | 470
| | |
9 | .079 | 2.01 | 585
| | |
12 | .05 | 1.3 | 2300
_______________|_____________________|____________ ____|_________________

TwinStick
09-18-2012, 3:18 PM
I use #1 Buck...I mean, that's what loaded in the mag tube. I've never actually had to use it for HD **knock on wood**

CasperSYTFU
09-18-2012, 3:23 PM
The point was passwords are good in case one thinks the other is a BG..And let's not get into the ammunition thing so tired of that debate.

I was just cracking a "kitchen" joke ;)
Absolutely agree with a password.

Travis590A1
09-18-2012, 9:21 PM
I rock #4 buck for my apartment.

Thebeeguy
09-19-2012, 12:03 AM
Obviously if you were eating a sandwich she would be with you after making it :43:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Iseewhatyoudidthere ;)

The password should be Pineapples... How often would you say Pineapples in your daily vocabulary? Then again, Kevin Hart uses it as a safety word...

negolien
09-19-2012, 4:10 AM
I was just cracking a "kitchen" joke ;)
Absolutely agree with a password.

Doh I totally missed that until Just now. Iseewhatyadidtheretoo now LOL :p

BigDogatPlay
09-19-2012, 7:38 PM
When I was at a Gray Ops shotgun course a few weeks back, they pointed out that birdshot has difficulty making it through heavy clothing. It might only make a dedicated opponent angry. These guys seem to know what they are talking about.

They absolutely do know what they are talking about. Just my opinion, of course, but there it is.

Chaozu
09-19-2012, 8:41 PM
Here's slugs on a steel target @ 200 yards.

ksDWEB3MaYs

"might be fun to try these on squirrels" Hahaha... now THAT'S overkill!

Travis590A1
09-19-2012, 8:44 PM
#4 buckshot, 32 b.b.'s roughly .25 in size coming at you at 1300 fps....need I say more?

bsg
09-20-2012, 9:15 PM
When I was at a Gray Ops shotgun course a few weeks back, they pointed out that birdshot has difficulty making it through heavy clothing. It might only make a dedicated opponent angry. These guys seem to know what they are talking about.




thanks for the heads-up for all. imho, birdshot is a very poor choice for HD.

rabagley
09-21-2012, 7:53 PM
Actually, birdshot can make for a rather impressive wound channel if its still all together. Google "cut shell" to see what this is about. You can put three cuts at the wad that result in the shot being held as a single mass until it contacts something, like a bad guy or a wall. Then, it disintegrates, theoretically before penetrating too much more.

Unfortunately, I have never seen a test of how much velocity the shot actually has after penetrating the second sheet of drywall.

Scuba Steve33
09-21-2012, 8:03 PM
I'm not a fan of guys discrediting certain rounds for over penetration. Of course it's something to consider given the possibility of hitting family members or neighbors but if you use an under-powered round that doesn't drop him and he kills you your family has no protection. Practice to reduce the chance of missing.

Also to the guys suggesting bird shot, I'll just leave this here.

BACnPBdsH20

Wolfie_AR
09-21-2012, 8:29 PM
Slug defeats the advantage of a shotgun (point and shoot).

point and shoot? In a HD situation you are normally at a range of about 7 - 10 feet. With your adrenaline up and you under stress you will have to aim to achieve center mass shots. You would be surprised at how many people miss while under high stress, or only wound the attacker. A shotgun gives you a better chance but a shotgun is not a point and shoot weapon, it is a point and aim weapon just like the rest of them.

For the Op, go with #4 buck not birdshot. This is a proven threat stopper in military applications and doesn't over penetrate like 00 Buck or larger.

Wolfie_AR
09-21-2012, 8:32 PM
For those not concerned with over penetration 00 buck will serve you well. If you want something a little more tactical. Several companies make shells with a half slug and three double 00 buckshot. Best of both worlds perhaps.

scglock
09-21-2012, 9:22 PM
my vote is for 00 buck.

Scuba Steve33
09-22-2012, 9:37 AM
Several companies make shells with a half slug and three double 00 buckshot. Best of both worlds perhaps.

I have six of those loaded in my 500 with six 00 buck in the saddle. Although these have six 00 buck per shell, I prefer that over three.

http://www.firequest.com/G12-025.html

-hanko
09-22-2012, 9:59 AM
For a shotgun in Home defence you want to use bird shot. Reason being it wont over penetrate but it will have the effect of larger pellets because chances are the range you will be hitting your target will be close enough that the pellets wont expand that much.

Slugs are probably the worst choice in your home. Birdshot sounds silly but trust me, its the way to go.
:confused:

Spread will be the same at a given range.

As far as trusting you...ever used a shotgun in self defense?

-hanko

ElDub1950
09-22-2012, 10:37 AM
:confused:

Spread will be the same at a given range.

As far as trusting you...ever used a shotgun in self defense?

-hanko

The title of your comment "Name a pro shotgun instructor who recommends bird loads..." is the key point.

Going a step further, I don't think there are any who don't recommend 'against' bird loads for HD.

I never take experts' opinions at face value, but when basically all pros have the same opinion I put a lot of value on that.

BonnieB
09-22-2012, 10:58 AM
Obviously if you were eating a sandwich she would be with you after making it :43:


<<< Big fat wet Bronx raspberry here !! :tt2: >>>

JTecalo
09-22-2012, 1:15 PM
For a shotgun in Home defence you want to use bird shot. Reason being it wont over penetrate but it will have the effect of larger pellets because chances are the range you will be hitting your target will be close enough that the pellets wont expand that much.

Slugs are probably the worst choice in your home. Birdshot sounds silly but trust me, its the way to go.

I have an old 1897 winchester and this is what I was told also. I measured my hallway and marked off the distance when I went shooting and he was right, the pellets were not spread very much.

upside the birdshot is easier on my shoulder than the slugs or buck.

Scuba Steve33
09-22-2012, 1:36 PM
upside the birdshot is easier on my shoulder than the slugs or buck.

Downside it won't kill anyone. No big deal though, at least your shoulder won't be bruised.

JTecalo
09-22-2012, 1:54 PM
Downside it won't kill anyone. No big deal though, at least your shoulder won't be bruised.

maybe not, but a face full of # 6 is not going to "make their day".
plus the 97 can slam fire 5 rounds pretty fast.

If that doesn't do it I guess my son will have to open up with his mossberg 500 while I reload. :D

I do know what you're saying though

Scuba Steve33
09-22-2012, 2:31 PM
maybe not, but a face full of # 6 is not going to "make their day".

No matter what you are using shot placement is key (obviously) and anything is better than nothing but I don't want to leave that chance of bird shot not doing the job versus something that hits much harder (just my opinion). Unlike the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 debate there are significant differences in say bird shot and 00 buck. By the way I know you're well aware of the facts, I'm just speaking out loud.

JTecalo
09-22-2012, 3:10 PM
No matter what you are using shot placement is key (obviously) and anything is better than nothing but I don't want to leave that chance of bird shot not doing the job versus something that hits much harder (just my opinion). Unlike the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 debate there are significant differences in say bird shot and 00 buck. By the way I know you're well aware of the facts, I'm just speaking out loud.

Yeah you're right on that. I saw a youtube video of some guy testing various shotgun shots on wood targets and it didn't take much imagination to see buck would be pretty devastating to anything uninvited in my hallway.

I just hope I never have to find out, I'm not too good with a mop and sponge.

Scuba Steve33
09-22-2012, 9:10 PM
Yeah you're right on that. I saw a youtube video of some guy testing various shotgun shots on wood targets and it didn't take much imagination to see buck would be pretty devastating to anything uninvited in my hallway.

I just hope I never have to find out, I'm not too good with a mop and sponge.

Yeah, it's a big difference. There's several stories like the shotgun survival one I posted above of victims surviving bird shot but I've never seen one of buck. Obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't happened but seeing what buck does to various targets compared to bird it's clear.

I agree that I hope I never have to find out if buck will hold up though.

ASTMedic
09-22-2012, 9:42 PM
Yeah, it's a big difference. There's several stories like the shotgun survival one I posted above of victims surviving bird shot but I've never seen one of buck. Obviously that doesn't mean it hasn't happened but seeing what buck does to various targets compared to bird it's clear.

I agree that I hope I never have to find out if buck will hold up though.

I think a mistake is being made as to the needs of a defensive load. Killing is not the expected end result in shooting someone other than in war, and even then wounding is a far better result to cause chaos. Living or dying is of no concern to me. Stopping the threat is what I want while not over penetrating to prevent collateral damage. In my home or on the street I will never state I want/wanted someone to die. You do that and you will open the door to all kinds of potential problems.

I want a load that will cause the most system wide damage and stop in the target. To me a heavy bird shot fills that bill. We're not talking fine dove loads, more like goose or turkey.

Scuba Steve33
09-22-2012, 10:17 PM
I think a mistake is being made as to the needs of a defensive load. Killing is not the expected end result in shooting someone other than in war, and even then wounding is a far better result to cause chaos. Living or dying is of no concern to me. Stopping the threat is what I want while not over penetrating to prevent collateral damage. In my home or on the street I will never state I want/wanted someone to die. You do that and you will open the door to all kinds of potential problems.

I want a load that will cause the most system wide damage and stop in the target. To me a heavy bird shot fills that bill. We're not talking fine dove loads, more like goose or turkey.

Good points. In a situation where your life is in danger I don't believe in letting up simply because they are wounded. Just my personal opinion and how I was trained. Note, I'm not saying murder the dude in cold blood if he's obviously not a threat but to not underestimate his wounds that he is incapacitated.

Also to be fair, I live alone in a house (no threat to neighbors) so my decisions for what I load with are obviously heavily factored by that. If I had a wife and kids in nearby rooms I'm sure I'd reevaluate and possibly change what I use.

Lugiahua
09-22-2012, 10:22 PM
I want a load that will cause the most system wide damage and stop in the target. To me a heavy bird shot fills that bill. We're not talking fine dove loads, more like goose or turkey.

But when one says "birdshot", most people think about 7.5 or smaller dove shots, not BBB heavy shots.

Stormtrooper
09-22-2012, 10:34 PM
Me: Is the SOCOM good for home defense?
Gun store clerk: No. The 7.62 will over penetrate, maybe go through walls and cause
GBI.
Me: Good.Wrap it up, I'll take it.

frankm
09-22-2012, 11:21 PM
So much fail in this thread. #4 buck will not reliably penetrate a leather jacket. Use 00 buck or slugs. Yes, I said slugs. You want a manstopper, he's in your house, intent on harming you, you don't want to "wound" him, or make him say uncle, or something else stupid. You want to end the threat. There's one surefire way to do that, 00 or slugs.

ElDub1950
09-22-2012, 11:41 PM
Perfect!

This thread has become as equally valid as all of the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 threads. These discussions only confirm why there are so many different products on the market. That is that every has different opinions.

bob7122
09-22-2012, 11:58 PM
Perfect!

This thread has become as equally valid as all of the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 threads. These discussions only confirm why there are so many different products on the market. That is that every has different opinions.

yep. so i will just use .22lr casings in my shells...

Scuba Steve33
09-23-2012, 7:23 AM
So much fail in this thread. #4 buck will not reliably penetrate a leather jacket. Use 00 buck or slugs. Yes, I said slugs. You want a manstopper, he's in your house, intent on harming you, you don't want to "wound" him, or make him say uncle, or something else stupid. You want to end the threat. There's one surefire way to do that, 00 or slugs.

+1

I wasn't sure if that was me who posted that or you. Good stuff.

Perfect!

This thread has become as equally valid as all of the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 threads. These discussions only confirm why there are so many different products on the market. That is that every has different opinions.

Except the difference between pistol rounds is minimal at best. The difference in shells is vast.

airbaker
09-23-2012, 9:56 AM
I use 7 1/2 bird shot for the first round and 00 buck after ,if the bg is still hostile after the firt shot then hes a dead bg.I would prefer to not have to put a person down ever but the choice is his!

I've got a similar setup. ;) I know there is that whole "stopping power" argument. Now if I could just find some of those rock-salt rounds. :D

ASTMedic
09-23-2012, 10:34 AM
Good points. In a situation where your life is in danger I don't believe in letting up simply because they are wounded. Just my personal opinion and how I was trained. Note, I'm not saying murder the dude in cold blood if he's obviously not a threat but to not underestimate his wounds that he is incapacitated.

Also to be fair, I live alone in a house (no threat to neighbors) so my decisions for what I load with are obviously heavily factored by that. If I had a wife and kids in nearby rooms I'm sure I'd reevaluate and possibly change what I use.

I'm not saying let up. I'm saying shoot till the threat is stopped. If they happen to die in the process that is just an undesired side effect. Shooting someone in locations that will stop them usually does damage to the body that will kill.

In 13yrs of EMS most people who were shot center mass with ANY caliber gun have bad results. It's more shot placement than round size. Unless you're shooting from an ineffective range for that caliber but then we're most likely no longer in a self defense situation.

My shotgun is loaded with 00 buck due to the fact that I live on 10 acres with livestock. I carry my .45 24-7 so that is my first line of defense then my Mini-14 if range is needed for some crazy zombie type situation. The shotgun is for protecting livestock from predators. Sidesaddle has LTL to hand load as needed for stray dogs if no threat to livestock.

Socalman
09-23-2012, 7:40 PM
When I got my Mossberg for HD here is what I did:

1. Measured the greatest distance in my home that I might use the firearm.

2. Got 1 box each of a) OO buck b) #1 buck c) #4 buck

3. Went to the range at set up targets at the same distance as in #1 and shot 1 round of each at them, then checked the dispersal pattern of the shot.

I decided to use #4 buck as my primary HD load in the Mosberg. Having said that, I have a decent supply of 00 buck, #1 buck and slugs.

dc2integra
09-24-2012, 10:33 AM
00 buck enough said.

frankm
09-24-2012, 1:28 PM
To be clear, I don't mind #4 buck, but consider 00 superior.