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View Full Version : HK 93 questions, feasible to build, etc?


OrenG
09-14-2012, 12:35 AM
I've been searching around for an alternative to an AR15, and I came across the HK 93, is there anything earth shatteringly bad about it that I should know?

How difficult would it be to build one from a flat and parts kit, and would doing so be legal? In what configuration? What parts are considered the receiver and not?

Socalmp5
09-14-2012, 1:22 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=274354&highlight=cetme+build


It's not the easiest to build.


Look into a century c93 (may need a little finessing ). Or a ptr91 ,an 91 clone in .308

OrenG
09-14-2012, 2:25 AM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=274354&highlight=cetme+build


It's not the easiest to build.


Look into a century c93 (may need a little finessing ). Or a ptr91 ,an 91 clone in .308

Looks like a c93 is my only option then, I'm completely turned off in regards to anything in 30 cal.

m03
09-14-2012, 2:35 AM
Even better, look into the Vector V53 or V93.

ptoguy2002
09-14-2012, 12:03 PM
You can build a 93 with a flat and a parts kit, but it is not as straight forward as an AK, next level up. Best off the shelf bet is a Vector Arms V93.
Actually they are on sale right now: http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=961&virtuemart_category_id=23&Itemid=758

Atlantic is CA friendly. For the current price at Atlantic, I would take the risk of buying a C93. But I wouldn't take the risk anyway, so...

There is also Kelly Ent: www.kellyenterprises.net, who has their VKE-93 and 53's.

gunsmithcats
09-14-2012, 2:21 PM
Or if you want an actual HK rifle chambered in .223, looking for an HK-43. Think there's only 380 or so in the U.S., and theyre ******* expensive. lol

OrenG
09-14-2012, 2:58 PM
You can build a 93 with a flat and a parts kit, but it is not as straight forward as an AK, next level up. Best off the shelf bet is a Vector Arms V93.
Actually they are on sale right now: http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&view=productdetails&virtuemart_product_id=961&virtuemart_category_id=23&Itemid=758

Atlantic is CA friendly. For the current price at Atlantic, I would take the risk of buying a C93. But I wouldn't take the risk anyway, so...

There is also Kelly Ent: www.kellyenterprises.net, who has their VKE-93 and 53's.

Hmm, the Vector would definitely work but at that price, I might as well get a decent AR and bite the bullet with piston kits and what not.

However the Century is about half the cost...

Has Century gotten better recently? I heard something about their build quality having improved but I wonder if this is only on certain firearms they make.

I don't know if ghillebear down at HKpro still does the AR15 mag conversions but if he does and can smooth out any problems with a Century made rifle, I might consider doing that.

Ziggy91
09-14-2012, 3:09 PM
+1 for the Vector 93. I've handled one and they are awesome shooters. Atlantic Firearms sells them for decent prices, but I'm still waiting for a deal to pop up in the marketplace. Really don't feel like dealing with tax, out-of-state dros fees, and shipping.

I still don't trust century because the horror stories seem to outnumber the good ones for their "HK" models. Plus, if something does go wrong it won't be easy to sell with that reputation. I heard enough to steer clear of their G3 clones, and bit the bullet on my PTR only because they recently started a lifetime warranty on ALL of their firearms, even if you're not the original owner. If they made HK 53/93 clones, I'd buy them in a second.

Get the built Vector 93 and call it a day.

ott1
09-14-2012, 6:48 PM
At the next HK build party, I'll be starting on my 93 or 94 build. Finished with the 91 and on to newer things.

OrenG
09-16-2012, 2:35 AM
Does anyone know where I can find info on some of the HK93 magazine acceptance modifications? I seem to recall finding a few pictures of 93's that took AR15 mags and can't seem to find anything on them now.

sigstroker
09-16-2012, 5:28 PM
I've been searching around for an alternative to an AR15, and I came across the HK 93, is there anything earth shatteringly bad about it that I should know?


Yes, their ergonomics are terrible and it has a 10 pound trigger pull. The reason they are so hard to find is because nobody wanted one pre-ban.

tuna quesadilla
09-16-2012, 5:33 PM
As noted in this thread: they're neat rifles, but they've been surpassed.

anothergunnut
09-16-2012, 5:55 PM
Here's a place that offers the AR-15 magazine modification http://www.hkportbuffer.com/product/ar15-magazine-converter.html
I have never used one so I don't know if they are any good.

m03
09-16-2012, 6:31 PM
Yes, their ergonomics are terrible and it has a 10 pound trigger pull. The reason they are so hard to find is because nobody wanted one pre-ban.

Bill Springfield can turn that into a 4.5 lbs. trigger pull for around $60, from what I understand. Can't argue the point on ergos as I haven't owned one yet.

ptoguy2002
09-17-2012, 3:05 PM
Yes, their ergonomics are terrible and it has a 10 pound trigger pull. The reason they are so hard to find is because nobody wanted one pre-ban.

The trigger pull is par for the course for any military-grade rifle trigger, and like any other rifle, can be made better with very simple tuning, or a lot better with a match or aftermarket trigger setup. The ergonomics are not AR type, but nothing else in the world is. They are better than AK ergonomics.

As noted in this thread: they're neat rifles, but they've been surpassed.
Yes, and no. From an ergonomic and modularity stand point, yes, it has been surpassed. From a reliability one, no, not really. The original HK93, or a proper built clone, will probably be more reliable than your AR, especially in adverse conditions. If somebody told me I could only have one gun for the rest of my life, personally, I would ditch the DI AR and get a -93 with steel mags.

someR1
09-17-2012, 3:16 PM
century c93 could be a project, vector will be good to go ...

CAL.BAR
09-17-2012, 3:26 PM
Or if you want an actual HK rifle chambered in .223, looking for an HK-43. Think there's only 380 or so in the U.S., and theyre ******* expensive. lol

There was a guy trying to sell his HK "911" (apparently mislabled by HK) here in CA. He wanted some ridiculous number like 4K or whatever. Sat onhere for MONTHS and MONTHS. Hundreds of looks - 0 Bids.

There are other variants of the HK93 in .223, but 93 is the most common. While I live mine (RAW) frankly, its very heavy. I much prefer my G36 clone. (hi caps and no BB notwithstanding)

seainc
09-17-2012, 3:46 PM
Try MKE43, If you don't care for a "highly-neutered" version just for plinking.
http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=29&Page_Number=1&Index_Seq=1150&Home_Page=

ptoguy2002
09-17-2012, 4:55 PM
Try MKE43, If you don't care for a "highly-neutered" version just for plinking.
http://www.hkspecialiststore.com/product_detail.php?Category=29&Page_Number=1&Index_Seq=1150&Home_Page=

I bought two of these...both needed work out of the box, and the MKE design will destroy the receiver over time if you don't. At Gordon's price though, it might be worth it cost wise to buy it and fix it though.

Socalmp5
09-17-2012, 6:03 PM
Bottom line almost any mass produced hk clone will need work. They are all almost built on demilled hk parts with some USA stuff thrown in. I will take a century any day over a vector, u can almost get 2 for that price.

five.five-six
09-17-2012, 6:10 PM
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=274354&highlight=cetme+build


It's not the easiest to build.


Look into a century c93 (may need a little finessing ). Or a ptr91 ,an 91 clone in .308


I have not looked into building one, but that flat, well lets say I could not imagine how to bend one.

Is the centurion the cast aluminum receiver? What do those go for?

Holescreek
09-17-2012, 8:03 PM
I've been searching around for an alternative to an AR15, and I came across the HK 93, is there anything earth shatteringly bad about it that I should know?

How difficult would it be to build one from a flat and parts kit, and would doing so be legal? In what configuration? What parts are considered the receiver and not?

I've built two so far this year, if you have build experience and the right tools it is an easy build. However, it costs more to build an HK33 than it does to purchase a complete CAI rifle. By the time you purchase the flat, the kit, US parts and a barrel you are looking at $600 before you start. If you have to buy tools you can easily rack up another $500. When you look at it that way, the $499 CAI starts looking pretty good.

The flat is a piece of sheet metal until you bend it. Once bent it is the receiver, even if you never weld it.

Century gets a bad rap, especially from the elitists. Not that they don't deserve it, but you hardly ever read about the 1000 good rifles but you always hear about the 1 bad one. Even the "bad" ones are pretty simple to fix but that's when the "I bought a new gun and it should be right from the factory" attitude kicks in and people forgot they bought a cheap parts kit from CAI. The number one issue with the CAI roller locking weapons is low bolt gap. The spec for the gap is .004"~.020" and when someone gets a new gun with a .008" they immediately go online and someone tells them it should be .016" and it's their own fault for not buying XYZ. Those same people usually can't tell you what the gap affects and why a .02" is better than a .004".

I wish you luck in finding the right weapon for you. I've found shooting my 33's to be most enjoyable, far better than any of my AR's from a comfort /ergonomic perspective.

Gryff
09-17-2012, 9:57 PM
I really like my HK93. I like my AR better because of the greater flexibility, but the 93 is rugged and very accurate.

m03
09-17-2012, 10:16 PM
There was a guy trying to sell his HK "911" (apparently mislabled by HK) here in CA. He wanted some ridiculous number like 4K or whatever. Sat onhere for MONTHS and MONTHS. Hundreds of looks - 0 Bids.

The HK911 is a remarked import-ban-compliant HK91 (.308/7.62). And yes, $4k is way over what it's worth AFAIK.

OrenG
09-19-2012, 3:23 AM
To those of you who've said the 93 is unergonomic, you've all inadvertently called Ted Nugent a liar, and you should be ashamed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6q12sZ4RgM

But seriously, it can't be as bad as people make it out to be if Uncle Ted says it's ergonomic.

As for that mag modification someone posted, that would be interesting but I'm speaking about the adapters that modify/change the magwell on the firearm, not the magazine itself. There's a thread on arfcom about them that says someone named Ghilliebear on HKpro installs them, but has to weld them in, and at 30 dollars a mag, I don't think I'd miss being able to use HK mags one bit.

Trouble is I can't find anywhere on HKpro or Google that says Ghilliebear still does this modification.

OrenG
09-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Just a noob question here, but what counts as the receiver aka the firearm on the HK93/Clones? Is it the trigger housing "lower" or is it the bent sheet metal receiver?

CAL.BAR
09-19-2012, 11:34 AM
Just a noob question here, but what counts as the receiver aka the firearm on the HK93/Clones? Is it the trigger housing "lower" or is it the bent sheet metal receiver?

On HK's the receiver is the registered part. Lower or trigger assembly is fungible.

CAL.BAR
09-19-2012, 11:36 AM
I really like my HK93. I like my AR better because of the greater flexibility, but the 93 is rugged and very accurate.

Yep - loved mine to. Until I built the G36 clone. The 93 weighs A TON. Still the only .223 rifle I have that will eat steel case like an AK, at it's registered so I can use my hi caps etc., but I still like the G36 much better.

starsnuffer
09-19-2012, 12:00 PM
The MR556 eats steel case just fine ;)

-W

OrenG
09-19-2012, 3:14 PM
Can anyone explain the whole clipped and pinned, push pin, standard trigger housing deal?

Is there a difference between what will fit and what won't? Or is it a legal thing?

seainc
09-19-2012, 3:40 PM
Here http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-rookie-corner/74651-clipped-pinned.html

http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=6&f=9&t=197791

Can anyone explain the whole clipped and pinned, push pin, standard trigger housing deal?

Is there a difference between what will fit and what won't? Or is it a legal thing?

Holescreek
09-19-2012, 5:17 PM
Can anyone explain the whole clipped and pinned, push pin, standard trigger housing deal?

Is there a difference between what will fit and what won't? Or is it a legal thing?

All demilled kits are sold with the original FA trigger pack which uses a pin to hold the front of the pack on. The builder must remove the FA components and make permanent changes to the trigger box and hammer if the original is used. The original lower must be modified as described below.

You are not allowed to build the weapon with a pin, you have to weld a block on the rear of the mag well so the weapon can't accept a FA lower. The block must also extend into the front of the lower and fill the void where you took out the FA sear pin in the trigger pack. The block must also be .9" wide to keep an un-modified pinned lower from being installed.

A "Clipped and pinned" lower is one that has the inside dimensions of the "ears" where the pin passes through widened from the original .75(ish) width to the .9" width, then has just the ends of the pin attached on each side to give the appearance of a pinned lower. It is not necessary to "pin" the lower, nor is it required to leave the ears on the front of the lower. Lots of builders just cut them off flush with the front of the pack.

OrenG
09-20-2012, 1:31 AM
All demilled kits are sold with the original FA trigger pack which uses a pin to hold the front of the pack on. The builder must remove the FA components and make permanent changes to the trigger box and hammer if the original is used. The original lower must be modified as described below.

You are not allowed to build the weapon with a pin, you have to weld a block on the rear of the mag well so the weapon can't accept a FA lower. The block must also extend into the front of the lower and fill the void where you took out the FA sear pin in the trigger pack. The block must also be .9" wide to keep an un-modified pinned lower from being installed.

A "Clipped and pinned" lower is one that has the inside dimensions of the "ears" where the pin passes through widened from the original .75(ish) width to the .9" width, then has just the ends of the pin attached on each side to give the appearance of a pinned lower. It is not necessary to "pin" the lower, nor is it required to leave the ears on the front of the lower. Lots of builders just cut them off flush with the front of the pack.

Thanks so much for the explanation, the guides I had read previously only made my confusion worse.

On a similar note, is there a guide or any sort of documentation on which parts from the G3/similarly patterned Hk rifles that can be used with or without modification on the 93?

Socalmp5
09-20-2012, 1:57 AM
Thanks so much for the explanation, the guides I had read previously only made my confusion worse.

On a similar note, is there a guide or any sort of documentation on which parts from the G3/similarly patterned Hk rifles that can be used with or without modification on the 93?

About the only thing is the trigger pack/grip frame but the ejector lever needs to be changed from .308 to .223. And the stock are about it...

Most guys in free states who have a registered sear.. Keep it in one housing... And just change out the ejector for each caliber.... So that one sear u could have any of the hk 3x's, 5x's,9x's and the rare belt feds all off that trigger group. Must be nice...

Socalmp5
09-20-2012, 1:59 AM
All demilled kits are sold with the original FA trigger pack which uses a pin to hold the front of the pack on. The builder must remove the FA components and make permanent changes to the trigger box and hammer if the original is used. The original lower must be modified as described below.

You are not allowed to build the weapon with a pin, you have to weld a block on the rear of the mag well so the weapon can't accept a FA lower. The block must also extend into the front of the lower and fill the void where you took out the FA sear pin in the trigger pack. The block must also be .9" wide to keep an un-modified pinned lower from being installed.

A "Clipped and pinned" lower is one that has the inside dimensions of the "ears" where the pin passes through widened from the original .75(ish) width to the .9" width, then has just the ends of the pin attached on each side to give the appearance of a pinned lower. It is not necessary to "pin" the lower, nor is it required to leave the ears on the front of the lower. Lots of builders just cut them off flush with the front of the pack.

Yup... That front pin isa big no no. By having that pin, in the eyes of the law u went from semi auto to manufacturing a machine gun.

OrenG
09-20-2012, 11:34 AM
About the only thing is the trigger pack/grip frame but the ejector lever needs to be changed from .308 to .223. And the stock are about it...

Most guys in free states who have a registered sear.. Keep it in one housing... And just change out the ejector for each caliber.... So that one sear u could have any of the hk 3x's, 5x's,9x's and the rare belt feds all off that trigger group. Must be nice...

It can't just be the trigger pack though considering this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA54mSlpFkY&noredirect=1

OrenG
09-20-2012, 6:03 PM
It can't just be the trigger pack though considering this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FA54mSlpFkY&noredirect=1

EDIT: Whoops I missed the part where you said the stock, my bad.