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Psykoasn
09-13-2012, 1:12 PM
I'm looking into getting a bolt gun, I put a deposit on the Savage Trophy Hunter XP in 308 at Turners, and i just saw on there weekly flyer that they have a Howa M-1500 in 308 on sale, which one is more reliable and more bang for the buck?

i might use it for hunting in the future, but for now it will used at the range, and i want to stick with 308

thanks

Divernhunter
09-13-2012, 1:15 PM
Both are good. No troubles with either. Buy the one that fits you best or for some reason you like most. Neither has any real advantage over the other.

bloodhawke83
09-13-2012, 1:18 PM
Savage was a nice threaded nut system on their barrels where you can do it yourself. Not sure on the Howa.

Psykoasn
09-13-2012, 1:23 PM
Both are good. No troubles with either. Buy the one that fits you best or for some reason you like most. Neither has any real advantage over the other.

Cool, I'll head to turners and see if i can check one out today, i may just stick with the Savage

ExtremeX
09-13-2012, 1:25 PM
I would stick with the Savage, I think they make a solid rifle. Plus I like the AccuTrigger...

NOTABIKER
09-13-2012, 2:10 PM
love my savage bolt XP in 223. love my savage also FV heavy barrel in 22lr. both good performers. i am sure the howa is also great.

Jyruiz
09-13-2012, 2:10 PM
I would stick with the Savage, I think they make a solid rifle. Plus I like the AccuTrigger...


I love the AccuTrigger.

NytWolf
09-13-2012, 2:24 PM
I personally rate Savage and Howa about the same, and that's near the bottom of the heap. That's not to say their quality isn't good. They are quality rifles. My rating is more about the quality of the materials they use and features.

TRY
09-13-2012, 4:12 PM
I have a howa 1500 and love it! Amazing gun for the price.

jaymz
09-13-2012, 4:19 PM
They're both good rifles. Advantge goes to Savage for their triggers.

rusty815
09-13-2012, 4:53 PM
Savage gets my vote, very accurate and a great trigger, plus it has a better aftermarket than Howa.

Psykoasn
09-13-2012, 6:21 PM
I'm not really worried about any aftermarket parts, the only thing I really want to get is a 10 rd mag, I can't seem to find a low priced one for the savage

socal44
09-13-2012, 7:16 PM
I have a Savage 17 hmr and a Howa 1500. In my opinion, the Howa is superior. The Savage action is very gritty and seems cheaply made. The Howa action is smooth as glass and fit and finish is far superior.

rusty815
09-13-2012, 8:04 PM
I have a Savage 17 hmr and a Howa 1500. In my opinion, the Howa is superior. The Savage action is very gritty and seems cheaply made. The Howa action is smooth as glass and fit and finish is far superior.

I'm going to guess that your Savage 17HMR is a Savage 93, which is a rimfire rifle and isn't really a fair comparison, since their centerfire rifles are much better. If I compared my Weatherby Vanguard (Same action as a Howa) to my Savage 93, the Weatherby is loads better, but I take my Savage 16 (Centerfire action) over the Weatherby.

FUBAR
09-13-2012, 8:25 PM
I personally rate Savage and Howa about the same, and that's near the bottom of the heap. That's not to say their quality isn't good. They are quality rifles. My rating is more about the quality of the materials they use and features.

Bottom of the heap? Really? Besides the cheap plastic stocks, what's wrong with the quality of materials or features? Weatherby uses Howa actions and barrels. I wouldn't consider them the bottom of the barrel. Mel at snipercentral.com uses the Howa as a base for some of his sniper builds. The barrels on a Savage can easily be changed out. Accutrigger is nice and user friendly. Both are quality rifles that can shoot just as well as higher priced ones. Only thing I would change out would be the stocks. Bell & Carlson makes some nice stocks for both. I have a Savage 10FP 308 heavy barrel for some long range stuff that shoots 5 shot groups sub MOA all day at 100 yards and thats with cheap factory ammo. Shoots just as well as the Remington 700P my friend has plus it has a 3 position safety compared to the 2 position on the Remmy.

Paper Boy
09-13-2012, 9:44 PM
Howa! I have one in 223 that blows my rem 700 in 223 out of the water. The howa action is smooth as silk....

jaymz
09-14-2012, 1:18 PM
Bottom of the heap? Really? Besides the cheap plastic stocks, what's wrong with the quality of materials or features? Weatherby uses Howa actions and barrels. I wouldn't consider them the bottom of the barrel. Mel at snipercentral.com uses the Howa as a base for some of his sniper builds. The barrels on a Savage can easily be changed out. Accutrigger is nice and user friendly. Both are quality rifles that can shoot just as well as higher priced ones. Only thing I would change out would be the stocks. Bell & Carlson makes some nice stocks for both. I have a Savage 10FP 308 heavy barrel for some long range stuff that shoots 5 shot groups sub MOA all day at 100 yards and thats with cheap factory ammo. Shoots just as well as the Remington 700P my friend has plus it has a 3 position safety compared to the 2 position on the Remmy.

The new Accu-stocks are a huge improvement over the earlier Savage stocks. I'd go so far as to say that they are the best factory synthetic stocks out there.

Angry dad
09-14-2012, 1:24 PM
Buy the American rifle.. we NEED the jobs.

NytWolf
09-14-2012, 2:10 PM
Bottom of the heap? Really? Besides the cheap plastic stocks, what's wrong with the quality of materials or features? Weatherby uses Howa actions and barrels. I wouldn't consider them the bottom of the barrel. Mel at snipercentral.com uses the Howa as a base for some of his sniper builds. The barrels on a Savage can easily be changed out. Accutrigger is nice and user friendly. Both are quality rifles that can shoot just as well as higher priced ones. Only thing I would change out would be the stocks. Bell & Carlson makes some nice stocks for both. I have a Savage 10FP 308 heavy barrel for some long range stuff that shoots 5 shot groups sub MOA all day at 100 yards and thats with cheap factory ammo. Shoots just as well as the Remington 700P my friend has plus it has a 3 position safety compared to the 2 position on the Remmy.
Fortified Peasant basically said it ... "ya get what ya pay for." But let me rephrase ... when I say "bottom of the heap", I mean it is towards the low end, as there are lower quality rifles.

Ya get what ya pay for, and these are both bargin rifles, that being said my vote goes to the savage just because I have two and love them both.

The reason why I say that is, if you compare those rifles to more expensive rifles, you're looking at better materials and manufacturing processes. Take any comparable rifle (synthetic to synthetic, wood to wood, blue to blue, stainless to stainless) in a given caliber -- the Savage and Howa is going to weigh more than, let's say a Kimber or even a Browning. That's mostly attributed to the type of material (metal and plastic or wood) and the manufacturing process. The difference is more noticeable in the magnum calibers.

FWIW, the Weatherby Vanguards uses Howa actions (actually, it's built by Howa), but the Vanguard is Weatherby's affordable line.

ar15barrels
09-14-2012, 2:24 PM
Both Savage and Howa make serviceable rifles IF you don't plan to upgrade or want to swap out parts.
Between those two, the Howa are better made.
If you can get either for a similar price, I would go with the Howa because they have a better designed action and are machined nicer.

Psykoasn
09-14-2012, 3:44 PM
Awesome, thanks for the reply's everyone

yeah i'm going to keep the rifle mostly stock, so i will go with the Howa, the only thing i'm going to do is get the 10 round conversion kit

DavidR310
09-14-2012, 3:53 PM
AR15 Barrels?

When did you come back?

ar15barrels
09-14-2012, 3:54 PM
Awesome, thanks for the reply's everyone

yeah i'm going to keep the rifle mostly stock, so i will go with the Howa, the only thing i'm going to do is get the 10 round conversion kit

Are you talking about a detatchable magazine setup?

Research that well as there are not many options for savage or howa rifles compared to perhaps remington 700's.

I can do the inletting and machining when you are ready.

ar15barrels
09-14-2012, 3:55 PM
AR15 Barrels?

When did you come back?

The answer you seek is here:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=620369

bloodhawke83
09-14-2012, 5:59 PM
for savage 10 round mags, someone is making them but there is a long wait.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2931588

ar15barrels
09-14-2012, 6:44 PM
for savage 10 round mags, someone is making them but there is a long wait.

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2931588

Trust me, you want to stay with a bottom metal that takes AICS mags.
They are the de-facto standard in bolt gun mags.
Avoid anything else.
If there's no AICS compatible bottom metal and a person wants detachable mags, they are better to look for a different type of rifle.
There is AICS compatible bottom metal for howa.

bloodhawke83
09-14-2012, 6:52 PM
Trust me, you want to stay with a bottom metal that takes AICS mags.
They are the de-facto standard in bolt gun mags.
Avoid anything else.
If there's no AICS compatible bottom metal and a person wants detachable mags, they are better to look for a different type of rifle.
There is AICS compatible bottom metal for howa.

Dunno what you said, alien to me. :D like below?? :confused:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/349154/cdi-precision-trigger-guard-for-aics-detachable-box-magazine-savage-10-short-action-with-4275-screw-spacing

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/162445/accuracy-international-magazine-accuracy-international-chassis-system-aics-short-action-223-remington-10-round-polymer-black?cm_vc=sugv1349154

Psykoasn
09-14-2012, 7:00 PM
Are you talking about a detatchable magazine setup?

Research that well as there are not many options for savage or howa rifles compared to perhaps remington 700's.

I can do the inletting and machining when you are ready.

i was researching the detachable 10 round mag for the Howa and looks like Legacy has a kit for it, although i will be interested into getting the barrel threaded to add a muzzle break/compensator, sometime in the future

rusty815
09-14-2012, 8:49 PM
there are AICS comparable bottom metals for savage, the ones I remember are CDI, V-bull, Stockade stocks bm, and accurate mag, which I believe is the cheapest. Savage has much better aftermarket support and imo has better features, but a howa is a nice rifle, I love my vanguard*

Psykoasn
09-14-2012, 9:09 PM
well i dropped the hammer and put the Howa in Jail, thanks for everyone's input

Pete1979
09-14-2012, 10:21 PM
Is it a 1-12 twist or a 1-10?
The only drawback to my Howa 223 is the twist rate. It was an inexpensive heavy barreled rifle with hogue stock, scope, rings and 1 piece base for $499 but it is a 1-12 twist which is made for Varmint bullets. I get bug holes in spite of the rubber stock with 52gr matchkings but if I want to shoot anything heavier, I need to find someone willing cut metric threads and rebarrel to 1-7. Other that that, it is a very nice rifle, fit and finish are nicer than the Savage.

kendog4570
09-14-2012, 10:40 PM
.... I need to find someone willing cut metric threads and rebarrel to 1-7. Other that that, it is a very nice rifle, fit and finish are nicer than the Savage.

I have re-cut Howas to take 1-1/16-16 (Remington) threaded barrel tennons. Worked good. Also modded receiver to accept M14 mags. These mags are not the best setup for a manual bolt action rifle. Way too much spring tension. AICS single stack is better.
The workmanship on the Howa is much better than the Savage.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww211/kendog4570/100_1305_zps73d00377.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww211/kendog4570/100_1304_zps0efd4267.jpg

DannyInSoCal
10-19-2012, 7:43 AM
Great info here - Tagged....

BomarFab
10-19-2012, 9:54 AM
Nice work KenDog.

I picked Savage because of the standard threads, and I can cut my own barrel from a blank and thread it myself. That is appealing to me. If I do this, I may delete the barrel nut, but I have not decided.

I can cut metric threads too, but that means changing out the gears on my lathe, and there are about a dozen to change. I cut standard threads too often to afford that down time at work.

kendog4570
10-19-2012, 12:27 PM
Nice work KenDog.

I picked Savage because of the standard threads, and I can cut my own barrel from a blank and thread it myself. That is appealing to me. If I do this, I may delete the barrel nut, but I have not decided.

I can cut metric threads too, but that means changing out the gears on my lathe, and there are about a dozen to change. I cut standard threads too often to afford that down time at work.


I have to give credit where it's due. 6mmintl here cooked up the box magazine conversion. I reworked the action for the Rem barrel, fit it, and parkerized the whole mess.
In the last century :D some NRA highpower folks had a bolt gun modded for M14 or M16 magazines. The point was to get around stripper clips, and the double row mags never worked well until they were modified to hold only 5 rounds. The springs in them are meant for semi/full auto guns and are way to stuff for manual operation.

DannyInSoCal
10-19-2012, 12:35 PM
Inspired by this thread - I searched mag conversions for Howa 338 win Mag -

No joy.

Any advice...?

kendog4570
10-19-2012, 12:38 PM
Inspired by this thread - I searched mag conversions for Howa 338 win Mag -

No joy.

Any advice...?

CDI makes bottom metal for Howa Long Actions.
http://cdiprecisiongunworks.com/howa-1500--long-action.html

CK_32
10-19-2012, 12:55 PM
Remington ;)

Wrangler John
10-19-2012, 1:22 PM
Oh dear, what to choose?

The Savage rifle can be completely disassembled into a pile of parts with a folding allen wench set, which doubles for an emergency pin punch set, and a screw driver with assorted bits. It can be rebarreled with a barrel vice, or two blocks of wood with V notches and a bench vice or C-clamps, a Savage barrel nut wrench and a headspace gauge. You don't need bolt disassembly tools to remove the mainspring, because when the rear bolt nut is removed with an allen wrench the spring is unloaded allowing disassembly of the entire bolt with your bare fingers. Everything inside the bolt is retained by the firing pin, including the bolt head retaining pin. The bolt handle is attached by a spline, it won't break off, and can be swapped for various styles and knobs in about five minutes. The most difficult procedure is setting the firing pin protrusion and stop depth, but these come factory set, otherwise a simple spring depressor and two fingers can set these dimensions. A protrusion gauge or dial caliper is required.

A broken extractor is replaceable in a pinch with a thumb, or an entire spare bolt head swapped in with new extractor and ejector pin already installed, in about ten minutes. $60-$70 worth of parts will suffice for decades of repairs. A little bag of 100 1/8" ball bearings will replace every extractor detent ball you could ever loose, http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/BearingBalls/Kit8589 for $3.33 and they sent me a free digital caliper with my order. Savage parts are ubiquitous, directly from Savage, Brownell's, Midway USA and many more suppliers. You will never be out of imported parts.

High capacity 9 round magazines are available for Savage Center Feed models and more (lots more stuff) from: http://www.sharpshootersupply.com

Prefit barrels are available from Bergara, Pac-Nor, Shilen, McGowan and Sharp Shooter Supply. You can swap to any custom contour, length, caliber, cartridge, or twist rate by yourself in minutes. Swap in a new bolt head, screw the barrel down until it headspaces on a GO Gauge, swap the magazine out (not necessary on the Single Shot Target actions) and you can go from the .223 Remington to the .308 Winchester to the Magnum case head size (within the limit of your action length, magnum conversion also requires swapping out the firing pin assembly-$25.00, and the front baffle - $3.75) (even the PPC head size is available) in about an hour the first time.

There are aftermarket stocks available, from pillar bedded laminated wood to synthetics.

My home assembled Savage varmint style rifles all shoot under .5" MOA, some down to the .2's.

Now which would you choose, a Howa or Savage?

ar15barrels
10-19-2012, 4:39 PM
<sales pitch snipped>

Now which would you choose, a Howa or Savage?

Even with all that, the Howa is still better made.
Some people just want to shoot their rifle, not rebuild it.

sholling
10-19-2012, 6:14 PM
Howa are good solid reliable if a tad heavy rifles. I personally prefer Savage and would love to own a Lightweight Hunter in 308.

rusty815
10-19-2012, 6:20 PM
Even with all that, the Howa is still better made.
Some people just want to shoot their rifle, not rebuild it.

I would like to know why you think Howa's are better made, because from what I've seen (I own both a Weatherby Vanguard and some Savages) the quality is about the same, but to me the ease of replacing and upgrading parts gives Savage an edge.

kendog4570
10-19-2012, 8:37 PM
I would like to know why you think Howa's are better made, because from what I've seen (I own both a Weatherby Vanguard and some Savages) the quality is about the same, but to me the ease of replacing and upgrading parts gives Savage an edge.

Field strip both and see whats in front of you. Count up the parts. Look at the machining. As a general rule, the less "hardware store" tools required to take one apart, the better the design and engineering.
I have two Savages, and one Howa (and many other brands as well). I would put effort into getting another Howa.

Angio Fred
10-20-2012, 12:20 AM
I have a Howa 1500 in 30-06 that I bought in 2004. Its a great gun and I got it for a GREAT price brand new.

I use it for deer and elk hunting and occasional target shooting. I plan on keeping it and using it for many many years.

BradleyAbrams
10-20-2012, 5:58 AM
Savage.

I got the 10PC (.308)

The AccuTrigger is arguably The Best factory Trigger offered at this time..


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/blndyhb/IMG_1578-1.jpg?t=1337750005



Fitted a HAWKE Sidewinder-30 scope ( 4-16 X 50mm ). Red/ Green Illuminated MilDot reticle, adjst. Parallax


http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e383/blndyhb/IMG_1580.jpg


-

jcjt
10-20-2012, 6:25 AM
The reason why I say that is, if you compare those rifles to more expensive rifles, you're looking at better materials and manufacturing processes. Take any comparable rifle (synthetic to synthetic, wood to wood, blue to blue, stainless to stainless) in a given caliber -- the Savage and Howa is going to weigh more than, let's say a Kimber or even a Browning.

so what you're saying is weight is an indication of build quality? that doesn't make sense.

do you have data from howa or savage of inspection (actual positional tolerances vs design pos tol, method of inspection, use of functional gages or cmm, etc)? do you know how to assess a manufacturing process?

unless you do, i don't think you can personally claim that howa or savage have inferior manufacturing processes or materials.

toby
10-20-2012, 6:28 AM
Vanguard should be considerd here as well it's pretty much a Howa but made to Weatherby specs, for me it has a nicer bolt shroud, better trigger overall, a couple better stock choices and it's MOA .99 or less Guaranteed

DavidR310
10-20-2012, 7:08 AM
Finally a good discussion other then Remington vs.... oh wait there is nothing other then Remington.






Lol
J/k, some really good stuff in this thread.

Wrangler John
10-20-2012, 9:54 AM
Even with all that, the Howa is still better made.
Some people just want to shoot their rifle, not rebuild it.

Aside from your "sales pitch snipped" comment, which connotes a bias rather than a objective argument, my opinion is that the Savage design is superior to the entire gamut of factory rifles available today.

This opinion is based on several criteria.

1. Ability to be manufactured inexpensively by use of investment cast, MIM, and stamped parts well suited to CNC machining centers.

2. Designed for interlocking parts where each part serves several functions.

3. Assembly requires semi-skilled labor and no hand fitting of individual parts or sub assemblies or specialized tooling. The Savage provides built-in adjustment of critical dimensions via threaded components, from firing pin protrusion and stop length to barrel headspace.

4. Repair or modification, including rebarreling, can be accomplished by the purchaser without the services of a gunsmith.

5. Robust design that is dependable while providing accuracy.

6. Intuitive controls and a trigger that allows user adjustment while remaining safe when adjusted to the lightest weight of pull. This last criteria is fulfilled by the AccuTrigger and Target AccuTrigger, especially with the Target AccuTrigger, as when adjusted too light the sear won't release.

7. Available and inexpensive spare parts supply, and wide range of drop-in or pre-fit aftermarket accessories and performance enhancements.

The only other rifle that approaches Savage’s flexibility and ease of assembly and modification that I am aware of is the AR-15. Although the Savage is superior to the AR-15 in that a pre-fit barrel does not need a headspaced barrel extension and bolt (a similar design adopted for use in the new TC Dimension Rifle), but can be exchanged between any receiver at will, and is easily headspaced to any bolt head of the correct cartridge family. Of course the Savage trigger is superior to that of the AR-15.

On the other hand, the Howa (I am speaking here to the M-1500) is a traditional Mauser design that is deficient in several of the above criteria, most notably in making field repairs, and that rebarreling and cartridge exchanges require the services of a gunsmith. This is not a condemnation of the Howa design, rather a objective observation. In fact, Howa barreled actions are available at a very reasonable cost, less than the cost of a bare Savage Precision Target Action, and would serve as a basis for building a fine rifle. The overall cost of a complete Howa rifle is also favorable, and for the average shooter or hunter, would serve as well as any other brand. The Savage design merely provides more flexibility for a shooter who foresees a future need to either change a single rifle into another configuration, learn practical basic gunsmithing skills or experiment with various cartridges on a single platform.

What the issue boils down to is one of esthetics. The Savage appears to have been the result of an explosion in a hardware store. It appears rough and cobbled together, blocky and clunky, lacking in fine craftsmanship. The Howa appears to be what it is, a Mauser clone with a polished persona and smoothness. This, I suspect, is why Savage developed a new smooth barrel nut rather than keep using one that looked like it belonged screwed to a fireplug, as critics always mention that “ugly” nut. Bottom line is that both serve their intended purpose, but the Savage offers a wider range of experiences for those inclined to take advantage of them.

I won’t mention how to adapt the Remington 700 to the Savage system, as I can only defend one heresy at a time.

Wrangler John
10-20-2012, 10:16 AM
Vanguard should be considerd here as well it's pretty much a Howa but made to Weatherby specs, for me it has a nicer bolt shroud, better trigger overall, a couple better stock choices and it's MOA .99 or less Guaranteed

Again, this is a subjective analysis based on personal esthetic appeal and not functional performance up to the .99 MOA performance statement. However, our esthetic sense is a powerful inducement to purchase that which pleases us, and is a completely valid justification. As an example, I have always been fascinated by steam locomotives, the bigger the better. These are the only large machines with all of their working parts exposed externally, displaying a rhythmic motion of valve gear, levers and connecting rods that appeals to the mechanically inclined. When viewing a diesel electric locomotive I suffer from boredom, even though the latter is far superior to the former.

Some folks hated the Camero but loved the Mustang. Marketing is as much a psychological appeal to the emotions as a list of practical features. That's why designers identify their target market segment and select shapes, colors, textures and architectures that will appeal to that segment, often using focus groups to identify which features resonate with that group. Often these esthetic values translate into brand loyalty, leading to repeat sales and a dedicated market share. Trying to remain objective in these decisions requires either great wisdom and age, or a partial lobotomy.

Eargasm
10-20-2012, 10:20 AM
I'm not really worried about any aftermarket parts, the only thing I really want to get is a 10 rd mag, I can't seem to find a low priced one for the savage

Have you found a low priced magazine for the Howa? I've only ever seen them going for $50 and up.

toby
10-20-2012, 10:49 AM
Again, this is a subjective analysis based on personal esthetic appeal and not functional performance up to the .99 MOA performance statement. However, our esthetic sense is a powerful inducement to purchase that which pleases us, and is a completely valid justification. As an example, I have always been fascinated by steam locomotives, the bigger the better. These are the only large machines with all of their working parts exposed externally, displaying a rhythmic motion of valve gear, levers and connecting rods that appeals to the mechanically inclined. When viewing a diesel electric locomotive I suffer from boredom, even though the latter is far superior to the former.

Some folks hated the Camero but loved the Mustang. Marketing is as much a psychological appeal to the emotions as a list of practical features. That's why designers identify their target market segment and select shapes, colors, textures and architectures that will appeal to that segment, often using focus groups to identify which features resonate with that group. Often these esthetic values translate into brand loyalty, leading to repeat sales and a dedicated market share. Trying to remain objective in these decisions requires either great wisdom and age, or a partial lobotomy.

OK whatficken ever! again all this is your opinion as well it's a two way street, live with it. ps, we are talking firearms not Locomotives or cars.