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ROCKETW19
09-12-2012, 4:29 PM
I know newbi question but what is the difference between the USG and IOM versions? my search had alot of talk about the two but no one actually explained the difference.
I am really liking that 5.7 round I know newbi again but I never heard of it untill the other day.

Just got my wife a wilson combat and now i want a new one also,lol I am not really a handgun guy but the FN is so intresting to me. I was gonna get a full sized Wilson but 1 is enough I want either this 5.7 or a glock 45 all decked out by glock worx. of coares either gun will be far more than I need but I dont mind.

Arson
09-12-2012, 7:59 PM
The Five-seven IOM (Individual Officer Model) was the first model of the Five-seven pistol to be offered to civilian shooters, debuting in 2004. It is now discontinued in favor of the USG model. The IOM was similar in its basic design to the Tactical version, but differed in that it had a MIL-STD-1913 (Picatinny) accessory rail, a serrated slide and trigger guard, and fully adjustable sights. It also had a magazine safety mechanism incorporated into the design, to prevent the pistol from being fired without a magazine inserted

The Five-seven USG (United States Government) is currently the standard version of the Five-seven pistol offered by FN Herstal. This model was approved by the ATF as a sporting firearm in 2004, replacing the IOM model. The USG retains the changes that were incorporated in the IOM, but it has further modifications, including a conventionally-shaped square trigger guard, a tightly checkered grip pattern, and a larger, reversible magazine release. It was originally offered with adjustable sights, but since 2009 it has also been offered with low profile fixed sights. The USG model has a black frame finish with grey controls as standard, but it has also been offered in limited quantities with black controls.

ROCKETW19
09-12-2012, 10:51 PM
The Five-seven IOM (Individual Officer Model) was the first model of the Five-seven pistol to be offered to civilian shooters, debuting in 2004. It is now discontinued in favor of the USG model. The IOM was similar in its basic design to the Tactical version, but differed in that it had a MIL-STD-1913 (Picatinny) accessory rail, a serrated slide and trigger guard, and fully adjustable sights. It also had a magazine safety mechanism incorporated into the design, to prevent the pistol from being fired without a magazine inserted

The Five-seven USG (United States Government) is currently the standard version of the Five-seven pistol offered by FN Herstal. This model was approved by the ATF as a sporting firearm in 2004, replacing the IOM model. The USG retains the changes that were incorporated in the IOM, but it has further modifications, including a conventionally-shaped square trigger guard, a tightly checkered grip pattern, and a larger, reversible magazine release. It was originally offered with adjustable sights, but since 2009 it has also been offered with low profile fixed sights. The USG model has a black frame finish with grey controls as standard, but it has also been offered in limited quantities with black controls.

I guess that is why I could not find any IOM version on their website,lol
thank you so much for the very detailed description.
So when I goto shop to buy I will only see the USG version anyways. but still good to know.

phrogg111
09-12-2012, 11:33 PM
You just heard of the Five Seven? Here's the real low down on the 5.7x28 round:

-Same muzzle energy as +P 9mm, but only if you get the most expensive 5.7x28 rounds that are loaded at 395 ft-lbs of energy

-Standard 5.7x28 FN civilian loads - those blue tip rounds - have within 5% of the muzzle energy of a .22 magnum out of a rifle length barrel. .22 magnum out of a pistol has considerably less muzzle energy, though.

-Not armor piercing, unless you're an LEO and can get around the federal AP handgun ammo ban

-Good round, nice low recoil, nice low weight in the gun, high capacity (not in this state)... I bought a Glock 17c because it's basically going to do the same thing (capacity and stopping power wise), but not be accurate out to 150 yards. Oh, it's also less than half the price.

Whatever you decide on, have fun! If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. If it's fun, forget everyone else's opinion. Only your opinion and the facts matter!

nightwolf0215
09-13-2012, 6:08 AM
If the gun fascinate you, you should get it. :) Don't go and buy a new one though. Stick with something resalable. But then you dont seem to worry much about that, then i'd say go crazy!!

phrogg111 pretty much mention the low down of the rounds. I'll stick to my positive about it. The ammo is very interesting and neat. It is like having rifle rounds in mini size. Very low recoil. Probably even less or same with the 9mm.

I never own a 5.7 handgun, but they look interesting. Just felt a bit cheaply built for me. Mechanism wise, it is something different compared with others. If you like the 5.7 round, try the PS90. My favorite rifle so far. :)

SCZ
09-13-2012, 8:09 AM
I've rented the 5.7 at a couple of the local rental ranges.

It's a LOT of fun to shoot.

Ergo for that pistol is perfect for my hands, it just feels soooo damn good. Most assuredly next pistol on my list to buy.

ROCKETW19
09-13-2012, 2:32 PM
You just heard of the Five Seven? Here's the real low down on the 5.7x28 round:

-Same muzzle energy as +P 9mm, but only if you get the most expensive 5.7x28 rounds that are loaded at 395 ft-lbs of energy

-Standard 5.7x28 FN civilian loads - those blue tip rounds - have within 5% of the muzzle energy of a .22 magnum out of a rifle length barrel. .22 magnum out of a pistol has considerably less muzzle energy, though.

-Not armor piercing, unless you're an LEO and can get around the federal AP handgun ammo ban

-Good round, nice low recoil, nice low weight in the gun, high capacity (not in this state)... I bought a Glock 17c because it's basically going to do the same thing (capacity and stopping power wise), but not be accurate out to 150 yards. Oh, it's also less than half the price.

Whatever you decide on, have fun! If it's not fun, it's not worth doing. If it's fun, forget everyone else's opinion. Only your opinion and the facts matter!

ya just heard about the 5.7 ( been into guns for 20+yrs)I have seen it mentioned in post but never payed attention to it. It will be a range toy like 99% of my guns. I have two to save my life (HK usp 9mm and Benelli M4)and the rest are just cool or intresting to me guns for fun. I try not to get into the serious side of it. I am no navy seal just a guy who likes cool stuff and loves guns. But your guys info is very important to me cuz most here are very smart on this stuff (unlike me)
thanks for your help

ROCKETW19
09-13-2012, 2:38 PM
If the gun fascinate you, you should get it. :) Don't go and buy a new one though. Stick with something resalable. But then you dont seem to worry much about that, then i'd say go crazy!!

phrogg111 pretty much mention the low down of the rounds. I'll stick to my positive about it. The ammo is very interesting and neat. It is like having rifle rounds in mini size. Very low recoil. Probably even less or same with the 9mm.

I never own a 5.7 handgun, but they look interesting. Just felt a bit cheaply built for me. Mechanism wise, it is something different compared with others. If you like the 5.7 round, try the PS90. My favorite rifle so far. :)

yes exactly it is intresting to me. I or I should say my family has many full auto but i like the M11A1 full auto it has slow fire upper and a really bad gun now. there is a new company that everyone wants 5.7 I think they are gonna do it so I read about it and then ran across the hand gun here so that really got me going. A M11A1 full auto 100 rounds with a hand gun to match,lol perfect

side note they are making upper for the lil mini shotgun shells,lol imagine that in full auto 60 -70 rounds of buck shot lol to fun

ROCKETW19
09-13-2012, 2:39 PM
I've rented the 5.7 at a couple of the local rental ranges.

It's a LOT of fun to shoot.

Ergo for that pistol is perfect for my hands, it just feels soooo damn good. Most assuredly next pistol on my list to buy.

good idea I will see if I can rent somewhere first. prob just get it anyways though,lol

thank you eveyone for your advise and help

Moonshine
09-13-2012, 3:13 PM
Problem is the cost of ammo... Which is really too bad because I can only imagine how completely awesome it would be to run a pistol course with the Five Seven

ExtremeX
09-13-2012, 3:28 PM
I’d love myself a five seven... but there are a lot of drawbacks... biggest one for me is magazine capacity limitations in CA.

Ammo restrictions don’t help either.

I still want one tho.

ROCKETW19
09-13-2012, 6:24 PM
Iíd love myself a five seven... but there are a lot of drawbacks... biggest one for me is magazine capacity limitations in CA.

Ammo restrictions donít help either.

I still want one tho.

its 10 rounds no matter what gun you have. so why would the limit matter?
is gun comps are you still restricted to 10 round and bullet buttons ect or is there something different for comps?
ammo restrictions, like what armor piercing or something different?

when was the FN made I could of swore I bought at least 5 full cvap mags before the ban I would just have to go check my garage full of every mag every made know to man kind

Shapes And Colors
09-13-2012, 7:32 PM
its 10 rounds no matter what gun you have. so why would the limit matter?
is gun comps are you still restricted to 10 round and bullet buttons ect or is there something different for comps?
ammo restrictions, like what armor piercing or something different?

when was the FN made I could of swore I bought at least 5 full cvap mags before the ban I would just have to go check my garage full of every mag every made know to man kind

Yes, yes, and 2004 to civilians.

ROCKETW19
09-13-2012, 9:54 PM
Yes, yes, and 2004 to civilians.

oh wow that has got to suck for guys that compete. They should have a special law/rule for comps.

thanks for anwsers

ExtremeX
09-13-2012, 11:53 PM
its 10 rounds no matter what gun you have. so why would the limit matter?
is gun comps are you still restricted to 10 round and bullet buttons ect or is there something different for comps?
ammo restrictions, like what armor piercing or something different?

when was the FN made I could of swore I bought at least 5 full cvap mags before the ban I would just have to go check my garage full of every mag every made know to man kind

Because one of the biggest perk of that gun is ammo capacity... Factory 20 and 30rd mags.

Spending 1k+ for that pistol and not being able to take advantage of some of its trademark features is just a little pointless for me.

Donít get me wrong, I like the five seven, but itís just uber nerfed in CA. The ammo restrictions are an even bigger bummer. The two selling points of the pistols are the two I canít take advantage of.

phrogg111
09-14-2012, 1:26 AM
Armor piercing handgun ammunition isn't banned in California, it's banned by federal law.

Without AP rounds (which are hot loaded), you need to get really hot loaded, REALLY expensive defense rounds. The company I always looked at to compare my statistics to apparently got shut down by the ATF, which raided them/arrested them/stole their stuff for doing something that they themselves deemed was not illegal. So, I dunno where to get good ammo.

FN's blue tip 5.7x28 is pretty lame - .22 magnum rifle energy out of a handgun. That's not a selling point for an $1100 gun.

Capacity is the biggest issue, but like I said before, Glock 17C will have the same capacity (just about) - 19+1 and 33+1 instead of 20+1 and 30+1.

jessegpresley
09-14-2012, 2:01 PM
It's a fun gun to shoot, virtually no recoil. Ammo is a little pricey, buy it by the 500 at least. Magazine capacity restriction sucks, but that doesn't stop many from buying a G17, either. I rarely shoot it just because I'd rather shoot my 1911s and revolvers.

Wouldn't be the first gun I'd grab out of the safe, but if you love guns it's a nice one to have due to it's uniqueness.

ROCKETW19
09-14-2012, 2:01 PM
man you guys are swaying me to a glock 45 and pimping it out at glockworx.
I just want a cool fun gun why are laws have to take fun outta everything. you and i both know we could get a 30 round mag for that gun if we wanted and I am sure if a bank robber wanted one he could to so why the stupid laws? they help ZERO.

saki302
09-14-2012, 11:59 PM
GIven a choice, get the IOM, it's more collectible. The USG (square trigger guard) does have a better grip though- the checkering grabs the hand better than the IOM 'pimples'.

SS195 or SS198 makes much better defensive rounds than the blue tip 197- it's hotter and higher velocity. But blue tip is great for practice.

I still don't get where people say it costs so much to shoot. The price is about the same as .40 (on a good day- seen it as low as $19/50) to .45 ACP (on a bad day- $24/50).

-Dave

keenkeen
09-16-2012, 11:07 AM
Armor piercing handgun ammunition isn't banned in California, it's banned by federal law.


Are you sure?

Can you provide some backup/info on this?

Oceanbob
09-16-2012, 11:25 AM
its 10 rounds no matter what gun you have. so why would the limit matter?
is gun comps are you still restricted to 10 round and bullet buttons ect or is there something different for comps?
ammo restrictions, like what armor piercing or something different?

when was the FN made I could of swore I bought at least 5 full cvap mags before the ban I would just have to go check my garage full of every mag every made know to man kind

Not true for everyone. Plenty of people own preban Glock, HK and other magazines these days.

SoCal Gunner
09-16-2012, 6:03 PM
man you guys are swaying me to a glock 45 and pimping it out at glockworx.
I just want a cool fun gun why are laws have to take fun outta everything. you and i both know we could get a 30 round mag for that gun if we wanted and I am sure if a bank robber wanted one he could to so why the stupid laws? they help ZERO.

Rocket,

Come on over to the fivesevenforum.com and learn so much more about this platform. There is so much misinformation out there, including this thread, about this round that I'm not even going to get into it here.

I'm over there with the same Screen Name.
SoCal Gunner

d4v0s
09-16-2012, 10:02 PM
Are you sure?

Can you provide some backup/info on this?


Repost from thehighroad.org
__________________________________________________ _____________
From the ATF website:


Under Title 18, UNITED STATES CODE, CHAPTER 44 as amended by Public Law 103-322
The Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 (enacted September 13, 1994) 18 U.S.C. CHAPTER 44 § 921(a)(17)(B) the term 'armor piercing ammunition' means --

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

(C) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Secretary finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Secretary finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device.


§ 922(a) It shall be unlawful --


(7) for any person to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --


(A) the manufacture or importation of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the manufacture of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation; and
(C) any manufacture or importation for the purpose of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary; and


(8) for any manufacturer or importer to sell or deliver armor piercing ammunition, except that this paragraph shall not apply to --

(A) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department agency, or political subdivision thereof;
(B) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purpose of exportation;
(C) the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of such ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimenting authorized by the Secretary.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--


(5) any firearm or armor-piercing ammunition to any person unless the licensee notes in his records, required to be kept pursuant to section 923 of this chapter, the name, age, and place of residence of such person if the person is an individual, or the identity and principal and local places of business of such person if the person is a corporation or other business entity.
§ 923

(a) No person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or importing or manufacturing ammunition until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license to do so from the Secretary... Each applicant shall pay a fee for obtaining such a license, a separate fee being required for each place in which the applicant is to do business, as follows:


(1) If the applicant is a manufacturer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year;

(2) If the applicant is an importer-

(A) of destructive devices, ammunition for destructive devices or armor piercing ammunition, a fee of $1,000 per year.

(e) ...The Secretary may, after notice and opportunity for hearing, revoke the license of a dealer who willfully transfers armor piercing ammunition...

(k) Licensed importers and licensed manufactures shall mark all armor piecing projectiles and packages containing such projectiles for distribution in the manner prescribed by the Secretary by regulation. The Secretary shall furnish information to each dealer licensed under this chapter defining which projectiles are considered armor piercing ammunition as defined by section 921(a)(17)(B).

§ 929(a)

(1) Whoever, during and in relation to the commission of a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime (including a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime which provides for an enhanced punishment if committed by the use of a deadly or dangerous weapon or device) for which he may be prosecuted in a court of the United States, uses or carries a firearm and is in possession of armor piercing ammunition capable of being fired in that firearm, shall in addition to the punishment provided for the commission of such crime of violence or drug trafficking crime, be sentenced to a term of imprisonment for not less than five years.

(b) Not withstanding any other provision of law, the court shall not suspend the sentence of any person convicted of a violation of this section, nor place the person on probation, nor shall the terms of imprisonment run concurrently with any other terms of imprisonment, including that imposed for the crime in which the armor piercing ammunition was used or possessed. No person sentenced under this section shall be eligible for parole during the term of impressment imposed herein.

List of Armor Piercing Ammunition
KTW AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a green coating on the projectile)

ARCANE AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a pointed bronze or brass projectile)

THV AMMUNITION, all calibers. (Identified by a brass or bronze projectile and having a headstamp containing the letters SFM and THV)

CZECHOSLOVAKIAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) ammunition having an iron or steel core. (Identified by a cupronickel jacket and headstamp containing a triangle, star and dates 49, 50, 51, or 52. The bullet is attracted to a magnet)

GERMAN manufactured 9mm Parabellum (Luger) having an iron or steel bullet core. (Original packaging is marked Pisolenpatronen 08 m.E. May have black colored bullet. This bullet is attracted to a magnet)

MSC AMMUNITION, Caliber .25. (Identified by a hollow point brass bullet. NOTE: MSC ammunition Caliber .25 identified by a hollow point copper bullet is not armor piercing)

BLACK STEEL ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

BLACK STEEL METAL PIERCING AMMUNITION, All Calibers, as produced by National Cartridge, Atlanta, Georgia.

7.62mm NATO AP (Identified by black coloring in the bullet tip. This ammunition is used by various NATO countries. The U.S. military designation is M61 AP)

7.62mm NATO SLAP (identified by projectile having a plastic sabot around a hard penetrator. The penetrator protrudes above the sabot and is similar in appearance to a Remington accelerator cartridge)

PMC ULTRAMAG .38 Special caliber, constructed entirely of a brass type material, and plastic pusher disc located at the base of the projectile. NOTE: PMC ULTRAMAG 38J late production made of copper with lead alloy projectile is not armor piercing.

OMNISHOCK, a .38 Special cartridge with a lead bullet containing a mild steel core with a flattened head resembling a wad cutter. (NOTE: OMNISHOCK cartridges having a bullet with an aluminum core are not armor piercing.)

7.62x39mm with steel core. (NOTE: these projectiles have a steel core. Projectiles having a lead core with steel jacket or steel case are not armor piercing)

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING CARTRIDGES HAVE BEEN REMOVED FROM THE DEFINITION OF ARMOR PIERCING AMMUNITION:

5.56MM (.223) SS109 and M855 Ammunition, Identified by a green coating on the projectile tip.

U.S. .30-06 M2 AP, Identified by a black coating on the projectile tip.


SHORT VERSION
__________________________________________________ _______________
Legal to possess, not to make or import.

A round is only considered "armor piercing" if all of the following are true:
-it can be fired from a handgun
-the bullet has a metal core
-the ATF declares such to be true regarding that specific round
-it also isnt 5.56x45mm or 30-06 AP ball

ROCKETW19
09-16-2012, 11:44 PM
Rocket,

Come on over to the fivesevenforum.com and learn so much more about this platform. There is so much misinformation out there, including this thread, about this round that I'm not even going to get into it here.

I'm over there with the same Screen Name.
SoCal Gunner

damn it I jumped the GUN and bought a Glock 21 saturday! I still could go grab a FN but i have lots to spend at glockworx first.
there was a picture of a glockworx G21 in the new Recoil mag and it sold me right there,lol I am a sucker for cool looking things.
kinda what got me into the 5.7 cool round.

keenkeen
09-17-2012, 1:34 PM
SHORT VERSION
__________________________________________________ _______________
Legal to possess, not to make or import.

A round is only considered "armor piercing" if all of the following are true:
-it can be fired from a handgun
-the bullet has a metal core
-the ATF declares such to be true regarding that specific round
-it also isnt 5.56x45mm or 30-06 AP ball

Yeah, that is what I always figured ON A FEDERAL LEVEL...I generally go by:

As a non-FFL, Ammo MFG, or Ammo importer- Itís perfectly legal to possess, purchase, sell or shoot armor piercing ammunition.

Itís not legal to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition.

Not really the same thing as "banned by federal law".

Now, as for the CA part of the statement from phrogg111 I asked about:

Armor piercing handgun ammunition isn't banned in California, it's banned by federal law.

I assumed, The relevant penal code sections are 12320 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12320.html) and 12321 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12321.html):

Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state
knowingly possesses any handgun ammunition designed primarily to
penetrate metal or armor is guilty of a public offense and upon
conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison, or in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or
by a fine not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both
such fine and imprisonment.

Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state,
manufactures, imports, sells, offers to sell, or knowingly transports
any handgun ammunition designed primarily to penetrate metal or
armor is guilty of a felony and upon conviction thereof shall be
punished by imprisonment in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed
five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by both such fine and
imprisonment.

If someone headed out to the range with such ammo they could apparently get charged with two different crimes: transporting it (12321) and possessing it (12320).

I thought maybe this had changed or phrogg111 had some additional info.