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View Full Version : Ohio Ord. B.A.R. vs Tannerite


30Cal
06-27-2007, 2:48 PM
I went down to Coalinga for Camp Perry practice this past weekend. One of the guys brought a semi-auto B.A.R. 20rds of 30-06 = Big Fun.

Anyways, someone produced a bottle of tannerite. Hadn't seen that stuff before. Tannerite + B.A.R. = even more fun!


http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1058/624011512_dd554bc16c_b.jpg


More photos
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9371821@N08/

Ty

PanzerAce
06-27-2007, 3:08 PM
I wish I could afford a BAR :(

30Cal
06-27-2007, 3:22 PM
I wish I could afford to feed one much less own one!

Ty

bwiese
06-27-2007, 3:51 PM
I question the legality in CA of Tannerite. Don't have book/chapter/verse, but why would Tannerite be remotely legal when Penal Code even bans explosives made from dry ice and water??

I think it's pretty stupid to possess it, combined or separated into its binary fractions, in CA - or be hanging around those that do.

Do not rely on an Oregon dude to assert CA legality. Do not rely on ATF saying it's OK - Fed can be different than state.

We're probably gonna have some more BlackwaterOps situations w/Tannerite.

'Nuff said.

[I would love to be proved wrong by someone sharp.]

justinLB
06-28-2007, 2:07 PM
WHY IS TANNERITE LEGAL? Answer: Manufacturing is a commerce issue governed by the feds. Page 58 CFR 5400.7 General Q&A Section, new edition: #36. When is a Federal manufacturing license required? "A manufacturer's license is needed ONLY by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosives materials for SALE, DISTRIBUTION, or for BUSINESS use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their personal, NON-commercial use would not need a license."

justinLB
06-28-2007, 2:08 PM
The above is the law of the land on the use of Tannerite. We feel that it is important to note that in some situations, a person may be in violation and not know it. Such a situation is when a range mixes Tannerite and then charges a fee to shoot it. In this situation, IF the shooter is paying the range owner any kind of reimbursement, renumeration, etc, it is "possible" that the range would be required to be licensed. Thus far, we aren't aware of this being enforced (Using Knob Creek Range as an example, they have been told that they do not need a license to mix Tannerite for the line shooters). All things are subject to change, and we will keep the public informed of any new changes in law. Some states claim that the L&I (labor and Industry dept) or other agencies have authority to regulate Tannerite. This is simply not the case if the shooter is using the targets for personal use.

oaklander
06-28-2007, 2:44 PM
I suspect that California fireworks laws may come in to effect:

http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/pdf%5Cfireengineering%5Cfw%5CFireworksHandbook2002 .pdf

EDIT: Bill nailed it. Tannerite is not a "safe-n-sane" firework.

bwiese
06-28-2007, 3:00 PM
JustinLB,

Get a clue, dude: I specifically said there could be *California* issues, so why did you quote all that useless Fed crap above?

I'm so sick of hearing about noob idiots in CA w/Tannerite.

I note nothing quoted above dealt with California legal issues. And Tannerite is from an Oregon dude who probably has no idea of our laws & restrictions.

I'm pretty confident that anything that goes boom, with some notable exceptions for 'safe & sane' fireworks and gunpowder for reloading, is most likely a no-no.

Look at underlined/bolded area:


12301PC (a) The term "destructive device," as used in this chapter, shall include any of the following weapons: (1) Any projectile containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, including, but not limited to, that which is commonly known as tracer or incendiary ammunition, except tracer ammunition manufactured for use in shotguns.

(2) Any bomb, grenade, explosive missile, or similar device or any launching device therefor.

(3) Any weapon of a caliber greater than 0.60 caliber which fires fixed ammunition, or any ammunition therefor, other than a shotgun (smooth or rifled bore) conforming to the definition of a "destructive device" found in subsection ..... {snipped as not relevant to Tannerite issue}

(4) Any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device of a diameter greater than 0.60 inch, or any launching device therefor, and any rocket, rocket-propelled projectile, or similar device containing any explosive or incendiary material or any other chemical substance, other than the propellant for that device, except those devices as are designed primarily for emergency or distress signaling purposes.

(5) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of 150 degrees Fahrenheit or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for the purpose of illumination.

(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.

(b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.


So CA Penal code sec. 12301(a)(6) would readily describe any combinations of chemicals in a container, producing a large amount of gas/heat in a very short time span, as a 'destructive device'. Perhaps if it were an open container that might help - but if you were popped after the explosion, it gets hairy.

CA 12303PC sets up general prohibitions for possession of destructive devices:

12303PC Any person, firm, or corporation who, within this state, possesses any destructive device, other than fixed ammunition of a caliber greater than .60 caliber, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a public offense and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by imprisonment in the county jail for a term not to exceed one year, or in state prison, or by a fine not to exceed ten thousand dollars ($10,000) or by both such fine and imprisonment.

We have some 'escalator' penalties for transportation - could include driving your Tannerite around in certain situations:

12303PC. Every person who willfully does any of the following is guilty of a felony and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, four, or six years:
(a) Carries any explosive or destructive device on any vessel, aircraft, car, or other vehicle that transports passengers for hire.
(b) Places or carries any explosive or destructive device, while on board any such vessel, aircraft, car or other vehicle, in any hand baggage, roll, or other container.
(c) Places any explosive or destructive device in any baggage which is later checked with any common carrier.

Plus, there's reduced wiggle room in court:

12311PC. No person convicted of a violation of this chapter shall be granted probation, and the execution of the sentence imposed upon such person shall not be suspended by the court.

Finally, we have treatment of "constructive possession" of the precursor compounds:

12312PC. Every person who possesses any substance, material, or any combination of substances or materials, with the intent to make any destructive device or any explosive without first obtaining a valid permit to make such destructive device or explosive, is guilty of a felony, and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years.

We thus end up with the odd situation that having unmixed Tannerite components may be a worse offense than actually having mixed Tannerite!

You've been warned.

thefurball
06-28-2007, 6:43 PM
Sooooo, hows bout you draft a letter to the nice folks at Ca DOJ to the effect of: "Dear nice folks at Ca DOJ, Is Tannerinte legal to posess in California (mixed or unmixed), or is Tannerite not legal to posess in California (mixed or unmixed)?"

I could never get a straight answer from on-line know it all types as to the Federal regs regarding the build of an 80% receiver (lots of bluster, no straight answers), so I wrote the nice folks at BATF. I got a very nice letter in responce answering my question in detail sighting chapter and verse of the regs and signed in ink by hand.

Never hurts to ask them to put it in writing.

taloft
06-28-2007, 8:17 PM
Ask the nice folks at the DOJ for a legal opinion? Man, that is the funniest thing I've heard all week.:smilielol5:

Sorry to say, they are notorious for not giving a straight answer. You should see some of the OLL opinion letters posted here.

E Pluribus Unum
06-28-2007, 8:37 PM
In Los Angeles County.... probably illegal....

In Coalinga, Ca.... legal unless someone gets killed.

I lived in Coalinga... its like a big version of Taft. The biggest celebrity is Nora Hunt... a female rodeo queen..... small town livin... no one really cares.

Beatone
06-28-2007, 9:10 PM
I called OOW today about buying another BAR and they said they will get back to me in a week or two. They may have some in the current run that may be available. If you can get one get it while you can. They made millions of Grands but I believe only 200,000 BAR's. The price on these babies will only continue to go up. Yes they are a blast to shoot and how many people do you see at the range shooting one. A real piece of history. :cool: :cool:

Builder
06-29-2007, 1:47 PM
I appreciate Bill's concern for the use of Tannerite. Here's just a little more discussion.
Look at underlined/bolded area:12301PC
(6) Any sealed device containing dry ice (CO2) or other chemically reactive substances assembled for the purpose of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction.
While the Tannerite is a chemically reactive substance if certain conditions are met, all by itself, when mixed, it will not explode like a CO2 device. Neither flame nor fuse will make it explode. It requires a high amount of kinetic energy to set off the chemical reaction.
Thus, it would not be like a CO2 device.
(b) The term "explosive," as used in this chapter, shall mean any explosive defined in Section 12000 of the Health and Safety Code.
Which says:
12000. For the purposes of this part, "explosives" means any substance, or combination of substances, the primary or common purpose of which is detonation or rapid combustion, and which is capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat, or any substance, the primary purpose of which, when combined with others, is to form a substance capable of a relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat. "Explosives" includes, but is not limited to, any explosives as defined in Section 841 of Title 18 of the United States Code and published pursuant to Section 555.23 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, and any of the following:
(a) Dynamite, nitroglycerine, picric acid, lead azide, fulminate of mercury, black powder, smokeless powder, propellant explosives, detonating primers, blasting caps, or commercial boosters.

So from this, we see that it could be an unlisted explosive but it is not a destructive device. But Tannerite is not like dynamite, black powder or smokeless powder. I imagine that gasoline could be considered an explosive - "relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat".? Gasoline is more like black powder than Tannerite (flame or heat will initiate the chemical reation). Tannerite requires kinetic energy to initiate the chemical reaction.

So CA Penal code sec. 12301(a)(6) would readily describe any combinations of chemicals in a container, producing a large amount of gas/heat in a very short time span, as a 'destructive device'. Perhaps if it were an open container that might help - but if you were popped after the explosion, it gets hairy.Mixing does nothing, it will not explode. It will only explode if hit have a high velocity centerfire round. Thus it shouldn't be a destructive device. Gasoline can produce a "relatively instantaneous or rapid release of gas and heat."
Finally, we have treatment of "constructive possession" of the precursor compounds:
12312PC. Every person who possesses any substance, material, or any combination of substances or materials, with the intent to make any destructive device or any explosive without first obtaining a valid permit to make such destructive device or explosive, is guilty of a felony, and is punishable by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or four years.We thus end up with the odd situation that having unmixed Tannerite components may be a worse offense than actually having mixed Tannerite!
You've been warned.Tannerite will not explode when mixed like a CO2 device. Tannerite can not be set off in the same manner as dynamite, black powder, smokeless powder, or gasoline. Does anyone set off nitro with kinetic energy?
A little more food for thought.
Thanks,
Builder

Hunter4life1990
06-03-2010, 2:48 PM
yes im bringing this one back so dont shoot my a** for wanting a more clear cut yes or no answer. has it been decided as to the legalities o ftannerite or is there still no definitive legal ,not legal answer?

killshot44
06-03-2010, 5:43 PM
Buy it, shoot it, have legal representation in case step two leads to problems....

BroncoBob
06-03-2010, 6:00 PM
Holly crap let's dig up a 3 year thread.....................

77bawls
06-03-2010, 6:01 PM
Everything I read says thermite is perfectly legal. :D

Josh3239
06-03-2010, 6:09 PM
Tannerite website:

Tannerite™ is STILL 100% legal in all states, provided you do not exceed your state's black powder storage amount. Do not mix more than you intend to use at one time to ensure compliance. We are not responsible for "Acts of stupidity", so please use common sense.

Gio
06-03-2010, 6:11 PM
I love shooting Tannerite :D

Beatone
06-03-2010, 10:01 PM
I love shooting Tannerite :D

Me to. :43: With a BAR.

guimus
06-03-2010, 10:45 PM
Tannerite website:

Sweet, so if that happens to be incorrect, the Tannerite website has to pay tens of thousands in legal fees and then possibly go to prison? Awesome.

Oh, wait. That's not how it works at all. That's taking legal advice from somebody with a financial interest in having you think that there's no legal issue with this.

I mean, I'm not your lawyer and this certainly isn't legal advice, but the issue is still sketchy enough that yours truly, who loves to see things go boom, still isn't going near that stuff in CA.

xxINKxx
06-04-2010, 7:09 AM
Sweet, so if that happens to be incorrect, the Tannerite website has to pay tens of thousands in legal fees and then possibly go to prison? Awesome.

Oh, wait. That's not how it works at all. That's taking legal advice from somebody with a financial interest in having you think that there's no legal issue with this.

I mean, I'm not your lawyer and this certainly isn't legal advice, but the issue is still sketchy enough that yours truly, who loves to see things go boom, still isn't going near that stuff in CA.

Sweet, more tannerite for us then :)

xibunkrlilkidsx
06-04-2010, 7:39 AM
^ but i agree. more tannerite for me.

JustinLB,

Get a clue, dude: I specifically said there could be *California* issues, so why did you quote all that useless Fed crap above?

.......

We thus end up with the odd situation that having unmixed Tannerite components may be a worse offense than actually having mixed Tannerite!

You've been warned.


no we haven't. the 2 componets you need to make tannerite are attainable by legal measures. as long as you dont have above certain amounts of the product there is not much they can do. And tannerite is not like a CO2 device. it does not mix and immedietly start a chemical reaction. it is inert until mixed and even when mixed it still takes a lot of kinetic energy to cause any reaction.

Do you know what tannerite is made of? its Aluminum nitrate and Aluminum Powder. mixed 95%-5% by weight. when you transport both of them separate it is not an explosive. and only become explosive when yo u mix them.

If it wasnt legal than the black hawk heli copter with Apache gunships would of pulled me over after i bought some at a gunshow.

smokeless powder is listed as listed as a explosive but we are still able to get it mail order.

Josh3239
06-04-2010, 11:36 AM
No they take no liability criminally, but they do take liability in a civil case. If it was such a risk to use it here, they wouldn't sell it here. The fact that it is a binary explosive that they sell to people without looking into someone's background IMO makes them extremely vulnerable. All it would take is for one idiot to blow his hand off or one arrested and Tannerite will be up in front of a judge trying to explain that they aren't responsible and shouldn't have to pay for the damages.

Using your logic, I shouldn't own an AR because I risk going to jail. Join us please in 2010. Btw, how many people who possess/use the stuff in CA have been arrested again? It isn't like it is a secret, we had "Drunkskunk" selling the stuff to Californians for several months.

Sweet, so if that happens to be incorrect, the Tannerite website has to pay tens of thousands in legal fees and then possibly go to prison? Awesome.

Oh, wait. That's not how it works at all. That's taking legal advice from somebody with a financial interest in having you think that there's no legal issue with this.

I mean, I'm not your lawyer and this certainly isn't legal advice, but the issue is still sketchy enough that yours truly, who loves to see things go boom, still isn't going near that stuff in CA.

Marlin Hunter
06-04-2010, 6:28 PM
I question the legality in CA of Tannerite. Don't have book/chapter/verse, but why would Tannerite be remotely legal when Penal Code even bans explosives made from dry ice and water??




I think that is worded wrong. You can't make explosives out of dry ice and water. You can make a very weak BOMB by combining the 2 components in a semi rigid container (plastic bottle), but not an explosive. I wonder if mixing baking soda and vinegar is illegal. I had an Orange Juice bomb explode in my refrigerator and cause quite a bit of damage.

Tannerite is basically a black powder substitute. (I think) You are allowed to make Black Powder here.