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Lead Waster
09-07-2012, 4:56 PM
Assume you want to take a class to improve your shooting. What actually qualifies someone else to teach you to shoot?

Some credentials are "Oh, I've been on the SWAT team for 30 years" or "I was in the Army for 20 years and served in Afghanistan" etc. That's very nice, but it doesn't mean that 1) they can shoot straight 2) they can actually teach people to shoot straight.

I had brilliant professors in University, but they could TEACH for jack.

Is student referrals the only real good indicator? If someone shows before class, then after class targets and it's good. Is that the mark of a good teacher?

I'm thinking about taking a class at some point int he SF Bay Area, but I'm seeing $300+ for one day!

What say ye, Collective?

Tripper
09-07-2012, 5:06 PM
Referrals is a good thing
even then, the instructor might not be 'your' style

Mute
09-07-2012, 5:39 PM
Ask students what they've learned and what tangible improvements they made after attending a class. Also ask about what they learned that they didn't know before taking the class.

MrEd
09-07-2012, 5:51 PM
If a student is not ready to sell a gen4 glock 19 for 1 k AFTER the class to get a spot in the class then that instructor is useless :D

The Virus
09-07-2012, 6:03 PM
Student referrals are somewhat overrated. You get alot of first timers who don't know anything so they think there getting the best thing since JMB built the 1911.

NRA Certs are good only if you plan on learning the NRA curriculum.
If youre looking for competion training then look for an accomplished shooter in the disciplin you are shooting in.

If you are looking for Tactical type training, I believe the instructor should have real world experience in that area and be able to teach what he has employed in the field.

There are FAR to many outfits that have zero real world experience or have ever fired a shot I self defense of in combat yet are "experts" in theoretical instruction techniques.

There are many legit trainers out there to waste money on the phonies.

random name
09-07-2012, 6:09 PM
Stay away from any place that says we train navy seals and sec ops.

Striker
09-07-2012, 6:24 PM
Assume you want to take a class to improve your shooting. What actually qualifies someone else to teach you to shoot?

Some credentials are "Oh, I've been on the SWAT team for 30 years" or "I was in the Army for 20 years and served in Afghanistan" etc. That's very nice, but it doesn't mean that 1) they can shoot straight 2) they can actually teach people to shoot straight.

I had brilliant professors in University, but they could TEACH for jack.

Is student referrals the only real good indicator? If someone shows before class, then after class targets and it's good. Is that the mark of a good teacher?

I'm thinking about taking a class at some point int he SF Bay Area, but I'm seeing $300+ for one day!

What say ye, Collective?

Referrals and reading AARs will give some information. Other than that I would ask you what type of shooting? If you're thinking competition shooting, I would look into to people that have done at a high level and give classes, so someone like Rob Leatham. Read AARs on previous classes and you should get an idea of what type of instructors they are. If you're talking defensive shooting; today, I would look at guys with Tier 1 Spec Ops experience and the people they recommend; so to say Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, Kyle Lamb, Mike Pannone, Super Dave Harrington, Pat McNamara etc etc. Again, read the AARs on previous classes and go from there.

First, you need someone that has had experience because how can someone teach something they haven't done. If you're just looking for a basic class, there are plenty of good instructors around to help you with your fundamentals, but if you're looking for shooting and tactics, you have to learn from someone who has done what you're looking for. I could go even further than that and say something like if you want to learn how to run DA/SA correctly train with X. Different people do different things. Some can do a lot and some are specialized. Todd Green is a great pistol guy, especially if you want to learn how to run DA/SA correctly, but carbine for instance isn't really in his realm. The important thing is you know what you want, you do your research and you go to learn. It seems obvious, but some, okay a few, go because they think they're going to impress the instructor with their knowledge. That's not what you're there for. You're there to learn what they have to teach. If after the class, you incorporate it and it works for you; great. If not, discard it, but you are there to learn their way of doing things.

9mmepiphany
09-07-2012, 8:03 PM
I'm still trying to figure it out too...and I've been teaching for years. BTW: $300 for one day is pretty pricey for a group class and a bit underpriced for a 1:1 class...if it is a whole day.

When I traveled to teach, the draw was the lead instructor who was a USPSA GM and had been ranked #6 in the world...plus he was a great teacher. He'd also worked as an overseas contractor in Africa and with some very high end domestic spec op folks.

Most of what he taught was basic shooting...accuracy at speed...from which you could go any direction you wanted. I just got lucky, because he was local and that is what I teach today.

Other than the Big Schools, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and Rogers, everything else in fighting schools is rather directive . For competition, most of the big names hold classes, but how well they teach is highly dependent on your learning style.

I have 28 years in LE and that didn't add to my ability to teach shooting...other than to be able to filter out a bunch of stuff than doesn't work. NRA certs don't mean much about ability to teach either...but it makes folks feel good.

My clients all come via word of mouth and are mostly on a 1:1 basis. The only thing I offer, besides my ability to make you a better shooter, is the guarantee that if you don't improve, you don't pay.

jessegpresley
09-07-2012, 8:21 PM
Louis Awerbuck gives classes a couple times a year at Reeds in Santa Clara. He was rangemaster at Gunsite when Col. Jeff Cooper was running the place. He has some classes next month.

ZombieTactics
09-07-2012, 8:33 PM
Assume you want to take a class to improve your shooting. What actually qualifies someone else to teach you to shoot? ...

"Shooting" comprises a wide swath of related skills.

There are different kinds of instructors who teach different kinds of skills or techniques. Military and LE organizations often contract for training with someone like Rob Leatham for one kind of thing, Rob Pincus for some other thing, and perhaps someone like Larry Vickers for something altogether.

Identifying your goals is the first step.

Gun_Owner_901
09-07-2012, 8:41 PM
I am looking for a good shooting teacher in the Yuba Sutter area with a good price or willing to teach a eager student for free I am currently short on funds but can afford ammo thats about it, I can shoot I just need some tips on stance and things like that, PM me if anyone has someone in mind. thanks

whipkiller
09-07-2012, 9:14 PM
If a student is not ready to sell a gen4 glock 19 for 1 k AFTER the class to get a spot in the class then that instructor is useless :D

I don't know what that means:confused:

The Virus
09-07-2012, 10:25 PM
If you want to learn things like hanging upside down and doing situps with a gun or doing kettle bells with a gun, then Rob Pincus is the way to go.

ZombieTactics
09-07-2012, 10:36 PM
If you want to learn things like hanging upside down and doing situps with a gun or doing kettle bells with a gun, then Rob Pincus is the way to go.

Uh-huh ... 'cuz that's what he does in every class. :rolleyes: I swear man sometimes it's like you don't even care about the truth at all, but simply want to cause crap at every turn. Why must you act this way, Are you 12 or something?

Name an instructor or school ... anyone can find something to make fun of, if that's their goal. Would not a better goal be to contribute something useful to the discussion?

AAShooter
09-07-2012, 10:36 PM
I few thoughts to offer.

First, too many shooter get stuck in endless analysis to pick the perfect class. Find one of many classes and go to it.

Second, training is very individual. It is like asking someone to pick your spouse. Be clear on our training objectives before you start evaluating instructors. Further, your needs will change over time.

Third, view training as an ongoing journey and variety is your friend. Don't get stuck in the single point of view of one instructor or school.

Finally, like many sports, much of firearms training is intellectually simple but the ability to execute the skills consistently is difficult. Don't be in a hurry to move ahead until you have mastered fundamentals skills required. Many shooter want to take the low-drag high-end classes without solid fundamentals mastered.

jessegpresley
09-08-2012, 1:08 AM
Pincus is buddies with James Yeager. Guilt by association.

Hopalong
09-08-2012, 6:05 AM
I've seen more people hide behind credentials

No matter what the field or discipline

Word of mouth, for me, but also consider the source

daybreak
09-08-2012, 8:03 AM
If a student is not ready to sell a gen4 glock 19 for 1 k AFTER the class to get a spot in the class then that instructor is useless :D

I've read and reread this many times, and i have no idea what you're saying.

CK_32
09-08-2012, 8:11 AM
OP I couldnt agree more. Everyone who does these are SWAT snipers for 20 years and a NAVY SEAL for 30 and they are only 28 years old..

They can be all they want but I have to agree with their teaching and not see constant BS like their sh** dont stink. I dont care what you did just make me shoot better.

I think too many people get caught up in that oh I did this and did this and killed this many people when they were probably a range master at a local range for 3 months and watched a bunch of MagPul videos lol

Get info on the class see what they are about and pick on your beliefs. Because if they teach you and you think WTF how is this going to help.. Your not going to learn it.

AAShooter
09-08-2012, 8:15 AM
I've read and reread this many times, and i have no idea what you're saying.

^^^ This.

AAShooter
09-08-2012, 8:17 AM
Pincus is buddies with James Yeager. Guilt by association.

One has a much more solid reputation than the other. I believe most could learn from either.

ramzar
09-08-2012, 8:18 AM
Instructors with experience teaching a variety of students in the shooting discipline you desire is important. Must explain reasons for doing something, demo it and give you corrective feedback. AARs of experienced students with multiple instructors under their belt is helpful.

Check out the following:

"How to pick an instructor" by Kyle Defoor (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=334569)

AAShooter
09-08-2012, 8:25 AM
Instructors with experience teaching a variety of students in the shooting discipline you desire is important. Must explain reasons for doing something, demo it and give you corrective feedback. AARs of experienced students with multiple instructors under their belt is helpful.

Check out the following:

"How to pick an instructor" by Kyle Defoor (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=334569)

Although I think this article is pretty good advice, I am very reluctant to insist that the instructor be able to perform everything they are teaching and have real life experience on these skills. This is the equivalent that every Olympic coach has to have won a Gold Medal and be able demonstrate Gold Medal skills. Although this might be nice, many solid coaches/instructors can teach the needed skills without that background/ability.

I think one of the most ignored part of shooting is the mental aspects, especially for precision shooting. Lanny Bassham has several books/seminars that some top shooters have recommended to improve their shooting and their mental approach.

whatpain
09-08-2012, 8:28 AM
two words: chris costa

AAShooter
09-08-2012, 8:44 AM
I find it interesting that so many people are suggesting specific instructors without having any statement by the OP what he is trying to accomplish. Would you give the same recommendations if the poster's goal was to become the worlds best Bullseye Pistol shooter?

The Virus
09-08-2012, 8:53 AM
One has a much more solid reputation than the other. I believe most could learn from either.

I cant figure ou which guy you mean...

If some outfit have alot of controversie and naysayers then maybe there could be some truth behind it.

Or maybe it's just me

AAShooter
09-08-2012, 8:54 AM
I cant figure ou which guy you mean...

If some outfit have alot of controversie and naysayers then maybe there could be some truth behind it.

Or maybe it's just me

Maybe

kvdB9P_5Zp0

BigDogatPlay
09-08-2012, 8:57 AM
Student referrals are somewhat overrated. You get alot of first timers who don't know anything so they think there getting the best thing since JMB built the 1911.

I'd kind of agree here.

NRA Certs are good only if you plan on learning the NRA curriculum.

I'm bound by the NRA curriculum only if I am teaching an NRA sanctioned course. I have other experience to draw on to help people learn what will work best for them on the range and in the real world.

If youre looking for competion training then look for an accomplished shooter in the disciplin you are shooting in.

If they know how to teach and are willing to share. Being able to truly lead others in learning is something not everyone can do. I've known some great shooters over the years who would have made lousy instructors.... poor presentation skills, lack of patience, too rigid ('my way or the highway'), etc. etc.

If you are looking for Tactical type training, I believe the instructor should have real world experience in that area and be able to teach what he has employed in the field.

Agreed.

The Virus
09-08-2012, 9:04 AM
Maybe

kvdB9P_5Zp0





Or maybe not

jOg25HlBNiU

ramzar
09-08-2012, 9:05 AM
I think one of the most ignored part of shooting is the mental aspects, especially for precision shooting. Lanny Bassham has several books/seminars that some top shooters have recommended to improve their shooting and their mental approach.



Mindset is just as important as marksmanship and weapon handling.

"With Winning in Mind (http://www.amazon.com/With-Winning-Mind-3rd-ebook/dp/B004XD1M20/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2)" 3rd. Edition by Lanny Bassham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanny_Bassham) is one of the best books out there. I got a copy after I finished reading "The Red Circle: My Life in the Navy SEAL Sniper Corps and How I Trained America's Deadliest Marksmen (http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Circle-Deadliest-ebook/dp/B0071NMCKA/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1334899674&sr=1-1)" by Brandon Webb. In the last chapter entitled "My Proudest Moment", Brandon talks about when in late 2002 he and his buddy Eric set up the new SEAL Sniper Course resulting in some of the most accomplished snipers including Chris Kyle (American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History (http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-ebook/dp/B005GFPZYK/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1334947925&sr=1-1)) with 150+ enemy kills. Anyway, one of the most interesting ingredients in their sniper training was Lanny Bassham's "With Winning in Mind" Mental Management Systems (http://mentalmanagement.ipower.com/) and book (the SEALs in the book mainly listened to the audio CD). As Lanny (world and Olympic champion shooter) looked for traits in champions he found two: complete & total confidence and mental rehearsal. As Lanny points out, your reality is defined by your mind, not your external environment. The application of Lanny's mental management techniques within the SEAL sniper course was a resounding success.

AAShooter
09-08-2012, 9:13 AM
Mindset is just as important as marksmanship and weapon handling.

"With Winning in Mind (http://www.amazon.com/With-Winning-Mind-3rd-ebook/dp/B004XD1M20/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2)" 3rd. Edition by Lanny Bassham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanny_Bassham) is one of the best books out there. I got a copy after I finished reading "The Red Circle: My Life in the Navy SEAL Sniper Corps and How I Trained America's Deadliest Marksmen (http://www.amazon.com/The-Red-Circle-Deadliest-ebook/dp/B0071NMCKA/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1334899674&sr=1-1)" by Brandon Webb. In the last chapter entitled "My Proudest Moment", Brandon talks about when in late 2002 he and his buddy Eric set up the new SEAL Sniper Course resulting in some of the most accomplished snipers including Chris Kyle (American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History (http://www.amazon.com/American-Sniper-Autobiography-Military-ebook/dp/B005GFPZYK/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1334947925&sr=1-1)) with 150+ enemy kills. Anyway, one of the most interesting ingredients in their sniper training was Lanny Bassham's "With Winning in Mind" Mental Management Systems (http://mentalmanagement.ipower.com/) and book (the SEALs in the book mainly listened to the audio CD). As Lanny (world and Olympic champion shooter) looked for traits in champions he found two: complete & total confidence and mental rehearsal. As Lanny points out, your reality is defined by your mind, not your external environment. The application of Lanny's mental management techniques within the SEAL sniper course was a resounding success.

Great follow-up . . . thanks for the suggestions. I became familiar with his work from an former-Marine (I know, there are no FORMER Marines) that decided to use his program to make the President's 100. He spoke at length about how he applied the principles.

I always like this story by Lanny discussing his Olympic performance. It puts it into perspective quickly:

I was once asked, "Mr. Bassham, in the 1978 World Championships, you shot a 598/600 to
win a medal. What happened on those two nines?" I answered, "Do you really want to
know? Do you want to know how I got those nines? That will not help you. You don't want
to know how I got two nines. What you should be asking is how I got 58 tens.

ramzar
09-08-2012, 9:19 AM
Maybe

kvdB9P_5Zp0




Or maybe not

jOg25HlBNiU



Let's not forget the Professionals:

xGjBPBJ8CVs

ZombieTactics
09-08-2012, 9:51 AM
Gotta love the "greatest hits" of "argument by outrage", lol

We agree on the last, not the first two, although the second is a bit over-the-top, lol.

... If some outfit have alot of controversie and naysayers then maybe there could be some truth behind it.

Or maybe it's just me No, it's probably not just you. I imagine quite a few people don't really think things through and just go on the basis of "I heard that ...". or "oooh ... controversial", "oooh scary". To some people guns are just plain scary and controversial, why give weight to that kind of flawed rhetoric?

Name the well-known trainer or company and I'll bet I can find some kind of "Did you know that he/they did X?" nonsense that someone out there is rambling on about. Vickers is fat, Suarez is a criminal, Costa is only a Coast Guard wannabe, Haley is a prima donna who wears makeup in his videos, Piazza is a Scientologist, Puzikas is a war criminal, etc. ... that's kind of intellectual company you keep? Try making a reasoned case sometime instead of adolescent-level wise cracks.

Argument by outrage is a time-honored tactic among those who have no real case to make otherwise. Rather than have this degrade further into yet another thread hijacked by those with a bone to pick over their pet issues, why not let's just stick to the the OP's topic.

Lead Waster
09-08-2012, 9:57 AM
I've read and reread this many times, and i have no idea what you're saying.

There was a guy on the Marketplace that had a FDE Glock 19. His posting was ridiculous. He wanted $1k for it (I assume because it's FDE colored) BUT he was only going to sell it AFTER he took a class with it. Also, he was begging for people on his Youtube channel to pay for his class. His Mom was flying him to the mainland from Hawaii and the class was here, but he had no money to go to the class...and what a waste to not be able to go to the class since he had free airfare here.

So in a nutshell, he was selling a G19 for $1k, but you can only buy it AFTER he used it to take a class.

Lead Waster
09-08-2012, 10:00 AM
The training I was looking for was more for improving USPSA performance (quick sight acquisition, quick follow up shots, etc). And of course, helping with just static line shooting is good too, though it's nothing similar to USPSA skills.

Defensive classes would be fun, but not a priority as my line of work mostly involves typing at a computer and avoiding spilling coffee on my keyboard ... and that doesn't take me into any situations where I would need or even have a pistol nearby!

ramzar
09-08-2012, 10:10 AM
The training I was looking for was more for improving USPSA performance (quick sight acquisition, quick follow up shots, etc). And of course, helping with just static line shooting is good too, though it's nothing similar to USPSA skills.



Go to some USPSA matches in your area and participate in the match as a shooter. Talk to fellow shooters and watch the good ones for tips. Ask the organizers and fellow shooters for coaching instructors in your area.

ZombieTactics
09-08-2012, 10:29 AM
Of possible interest:
z37UWQ0DyWU

Bob's videos are pretty good too, it's one of the things I am studying in prep for beginning competition in 2013. Not the same as personal training of course, but useful.

ramzar
09-08-2012, 10:35 AM
Bob Vogel (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/) is on my list of instructors to take a class with. He can shoot and teach as relayed to me and I have his Panteao Productions DVDs (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/instructors/bob-vogel).

He'll be down in SoCal in 2013. For NorCal folks he'll have a class in October:

BOB VOGEL 2 DAY PRACTICAL PISTOL APPLICATIONS - Oct 30-31, 2012 - Castro Valley, CA (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=563618)

ZombieTactics
09-08-2012, 10:37 AM
Bob Vogel (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/) is on my list of instructors to take a class with. He can shoot and teach as relayed to me and I have his Panteao Productions DVDs (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/instructors/bob-vogel).

He'll be down in SoCal in 2013. For NorCal folks he'll have a class in October:

BOB VOGEL 2 DAY PRACTICAL PISTOL APPLICATIONS - Oct 30-31, 2012 - Castro Valley, CA (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=563618)

For the OP, I think we have a winner!

JTROKS
09-08-2012, 12:28 PM
What exactly do you want out of the class? That's what I ask myself when considering taking a class. Tacticool stuff is entertaining, but in reality it's not needed. I'd like my instructor to have a background in LE in the state I live in. I'd like more information on what legal matters I'll be facing i.e., after doing a Mozambique on a crazed intruder. On the other hand I would like to have an instructor with vast knowledge in shooting techniques and also compete(s/d) in the national level.

Atekhed
09-08-2012, 5:13 PM
Bob Vogel (http://www.vogeldynamics.com/) is on my list of instructors to take a class with. He can shoot and teach as relayed to me and I have his Panteao Productions DVDs (http://www.panteaoproductions.com/instructors/bob-vogel).

He'll be down in SoCal in 2013. For NorCal folks he'll have a class in October:

BOB VOGEL 2 DAY PRACTICAL PISTOL APPLICATIONS - Oct 30-31, 2012 - Castro Valley, CA (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=563618)

I believe he will also be back at Richmond Rod & Gun in Spring 2013 as well from checking their online calendar.

jessegpresley
09-08-2012, 6:50 PM
Bob Vogel and Louis Awerbuck are both in that Panteo Productions group. Everyone in there seems to be top tier folk. To take classes by both of them in October would be great.

johnny_boy02
09-08-2012, 9:17 PM
I don't know what that means:confused:

I've read and reread this many times, and i have no idea what you're saying.

^^^ This.



"only slightly hammered"

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=607559&highlight=Class

Lead Waster
09-08-2012, 11:58 PM
That Bob Vogel Class looks pretty good. $450 for 2 days is a bit steep for my pocket (I can go to 18 USPSA matches for that price! But I might be able to scrape that together. He seems to have a good reputation, and is the type of shooting/training I'm looking for. It might be an opportunity I can't pass up!

Ramzar, I've been to 8 or 9 USPSA matches. It's taken me this long to just master the safety aspects (trigger discipline, 180 rule, listening to RO commands, etc). I now am comfortable enough where I can focus on the actual shooting rather than just trying not to DQ, though of course I still focus on that A LOT!

Each match, I learn something new from other shooters. Some skill just require practice and teaching though. At a match, you wait your turn on each stage and then do your best... so as actual practice, it's not enough really.

Last match my buddy urged me to shoot an array of targets off to the left while walking. I could barely do it! I kept having to pause to take the shot! He did it easy and as he walked, he put one foot directly in front of the other and shoots with both eyes open. The foot-in-front-of-foot was to reduce swaying while walking. This is stuff you can only learn by doing it and practicing.

I'm checking my resources for that Bob Vogel class, I should have gone when he was at Richmond. 2 days, 1000 rounds ... sounds like a heck of a lot of fun!

guns4life
09-09-2012, 12:14 AM
It's easy...look at their gear, if it's not 100% Magpul they're posers.

mbt
09-09-2012, 9:16 PM
The top competition shooters teach themselves. There are no short cuts in mastering skills. And no one should know you better than yourself. I mean do u know any wild west gun slinger legends that took a class? Do snipers take a class? Classes are for people who want to make themselves feel good. True mastery and improvement comes from brutal self dedication.

locosway
09-10-2012, 2:17 AM
Student referrals are somewhat overrated. You get alot of first timers who don't know anything so they think there getting the best thing since JMB built the 1911.

NRA Certs are good only if you plan on learning the NRA curriculum.
If youre looking for competion training then look for an accomplished shooter in the disciplin you are shooting in.

If you are looking for Tactical type training, I believe the instructor should have real world experience in that area and be able to teach what he has employed in the field.

There are FAR to many outfits that have zero real world experience or have ever fired a shot I self defense of in combat yet are "experts" in theoretical instruction techniques.

There are many legit trainers out there to waste money on the phonies.

Much like martial arts instructors who have never been in a fight?

I've seen this topic discussed to death over and over. The bottom line is picking an instructor that teaches the area you're wanting to learn and having that instructor able to communicate his knowledge. Just because someone has been shot at several times, has been shot several times, or did 10 tours, doesn't make them any better than the guy who shoots recreational on the weekends.

A lot of high speed low drag units seek out competition shooters to find out how they win. Why? Because tactics are almost always the same, which is far different from actually shooting a gun.

As a life long student of all martial arts, including firearms, I look for an instructor who is humble, since they should be a life long student themselves, and who can convey their knowledge in an effective manner. World championship titles mean nothing to me if I'm not learning the material, and just because some people learn well from one instructor, it doesn't mean you will. This is why many schools, even mine, uses multiple instructors who have different styles.

Bottom line is you shouldn't just take one class. $100 here, $300 there, and yes it does get expensive. Do you *NEED* all of this training? Depends on what your goals are. Some of us use shooting as a hobby while others depend on it for their jobs. Even a class which isn't the best will at least give you more trigger time and you'll likely pick up something useful from the instructor, even if it's what not to do or what doesn't work for you.

The Virus, this wasn't all directed at you, I just used your post to start my post. :)

scootle
09-10-2012, 2:55 AM
i think the best advice i received, and likely the mark of any "good" instructor, is to train often and, most importantly, with a *variety* of different instructors and schools. every instructor will have a style and opinions about the various other techniques taught by the myriad of different training organizations out there. the good ones will figure out what you already know and learned in your past experiences, and work from there to push and improve upon that basis.

i think for practical and very basic structured instruction, the NRA curriculum is fine. for more specialized topics, you will want to decide if you are more interested in competition-based methods or more defensive or "tactical" based methods, imho.

if you are local to the SFBA, check out the offerings by Louis Awerbuck at the very least (teaches at Reed's) since he is one of few instructors that visits the bay area with credentials linked directly to Col. Cooper (and most know who he is :)). Bill Tidwell offers pretty much all of the NRA-based curriculum in his catalog. i've also taken classes with LMS Defense at Metcalf and Spartan Concepts (Ken Hardesty) in the SJ area.

this is a good summary of currently available resources in the area from another calgunner: http://jumpthestack.blogspot.com/p/san-francisco-bay-area-firearms.html

short story: instructor/student chemistry is a very personal thing, so you will have to shop around a bit to really decide what works for you and what doesn't, imho. "credentials" only get you so far.

PS i should add... training should be *fun*... especially since you are doing it voluntarily.

The Virus
09-10-2012, 8:04 AM
Using Marial Arts as an example, I would never be taught by someone with no competition experience.
Martial Arts is not fight training, hence the word art. It can of course help in a fight. Fight training for MMA is still not training for a "street fight" or self defense situation.

Things like Krav Maga for instance, which is the latest craze basically trains people to gouge, bite, rip, smash with any item handy. I honestly don't consider KM a martial art.

Back to guns, Some goof ball with no operational experience could be the greatest theoretical combat instructor alive but I wouldn't pay him to teach me the theory of something he has never put to use.

Competition shooting, I did a private 3gun coaching session yesterday with a former national champion, the amount I learn from this guy everything I go out with him is in direct relation to his amount of experience and high level success.

Bottom line is if you are gonna pay $400 for a two day class, I would find the BEST most EXPERIENCED person in the particular area you want to learn.

There are far too many instructors with extensive competion and operational and instructional resumes combined to pay for instruction from some paper tiger outfit

InGrAM
09-10-2012, 11:47 AM
"only slightly hammered"

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=607559&highlight=Class

Wow...... That is seriously sad....