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pumpkinshooter
09-05-2012, 3:28 PM
What are the legalities of shipping a handgun to an ffl for a private party sale? Both parties are within CA but too far to make the drive. It is an older pistol, long before the roster.

pumpkinshooter
09-05-2012, 4:01 PM
Can the owner ship it or must it be shipped as well as received by a ffl?

Shapes And Colors
09-05-2012, 4:03 PM
Off roster pistols can't be shipped. They must be FTF at the same FFL. Unless I'm totally off base, of course.

morrcarr67
09-05-2012, 4:15 PM
Off roster pistols can't be shipped. They must be FTF at the same FFL. Unless I'm totally off base, of course.

Not completely true.

If the handgun is 50 years old or older it is a C&R which is Exempt from the roster.

If said gun is less then 50 years old you are correct.

CK_32
09-05-2012, 5:32 PM
Must be sure the buyer is 21+.

Pack it nice and tight and put a copy of your DL in the package. Then ship it off to the FFL..

For an added step of CYA. I always call the FFL to tell them a fire arm is coming and who its for on top of confirm the address via google and over the phone (so you know its not shipping to the kids front porch).. Call the buyer when its shipped out and when to expect it and that the FFL has verified.

Then just ship it off with insurance and confirm delivery/tracking.

Also you do not need to tell them what you are shipping. For all they know its machine parts.. Being no ammo solvents or the gun isn't loaded there is no harm to the carrier or workers. I know this for a fact with USPS but not 100% sure for UPS/FedEx. But im pretty sure the same rules apply they don't need to know contents as long as its not hazardous to their health or needing hazmat or special treatment.

fiddletown
09-05-2012, 6:42 PM
...Also you do not need to tell them what you are shipping. For all they know its machine parts.. ... I know this for a fact with USPS but not 100% sure for UPS/FedEx. But im pretty sure the same rules apply they don't need to know contents ....Nope, sorry, but that is incorrect.

[1] It is illegal to ship a handgun by USPS unless you are an FFL.

[2] Shipping a handgun by UPS or FedEx, if one fails to (1) disclose that the package contains a handgun (or a gun, if shipping FedEx); and/or (2) ships ground instead of overnight, he has violated the UPS or FedEx tariff. That is part of the contract of shipment. By violating the contract, the shipper lets the carrier off the hook on any insurance claim; the carrier will have solid grounds upon which to deny any claim. So don't expect any coverage if your shipment is lost or damaged.

littlejake
09-05-2012, 8:14 PM
Pretty good info from fiddletown. There is a way to validate the receiving FFLs license.

Get the first 3 and last five characters in their FFL and input it into this site:
https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

It will verify the license and premise address to be sure you are sending to an FFL.

I'd prefer a copy of their license; but ATF advises them not to hand out copies to the average Joe.

It's nice to have a copy to show at the Fedex or UPS hub because that's another part of their tariffs.

Some dealers will not accept a shipment from a non-FFL; you'll have to find one in the buyer's area who does. (I'd ask the buyer to do that.)

Shapes And Colors
09-05-2012, 8:59 PM
Not completely true.

If the handgun is 50 years old or older it is a C&R which is Exempt from the roster.

If said gun is less then 50 years old you are correct.

True, forgot about C&R. Thanks for the correction. :D

pumpkinshooter
09-05-2012, 9:51 PM
The pistol is not c&r, it is from the early seventies. I would be the buyer, not the seller. Not on the roster , as the gun was last made in the early seventies.

CK_32
09-05-2012, 10:12 PM
It is illegal to ship a handgun by USPS unless you are an FFL.

That is true forgot hand guns have different rules when shipping. Must be through FFL.

Shapes And Colors
09-05-2012, 10:25 PM
The pistol is not c&r, it is from the early seventies. I would be the buyer, not the seller. Not on the roster , as the gun was last made in the early seventies.

Unfortunately that means it can't be shipped.

ROCKETW19
09-06-2012, 12:49 AM
I am not one to complain but this topic was something I just went threw. I wanted to see if you guys came up with the same thing I did. Instead there is a post, then a guy saying no, then oh I am sorry I messed up ect ect
IMO go back edit your FUD so this can be a lil more clear for us trying to know. I am more confused now then 3 mins ago.
Again not trying to ***** just trying to learn correctly

Shapes And Colors
09-06-2012, 2:26 AM
I am not one to complain but this topic was something I just went threw. I wanted to see if you guys came up with the same thing I did. Instead there is a post, then a guy saying no, then oh I am sorry I messed up ect ect
IMO go back edit your FUD so this can be a lil more clear for us trying to know. I am more confused now then 3 mins ago.
Again not trying to ***** just trying to learn correctly

The information is there and is pretty clearly explained through the thread. The only two "oh I am sorry" posts (one of which was mine) was for C&R exceptions, and shipping methods. If you want a pamphlet of pre-digested info, read the wiki.

wamphyri13
09-06-2012, 11:45 AM
I'll add, summarize, and confirm, having shipped many handguns.
1)Unless it's C&R, Olympic Pistol Exempted, or single action or SINGLE SHOT EXEMPTED, if it's not listed on the roster, it's not shipping, regardless of when it was made or as you described, 70's pre-roster.
2)Only FFL can ship handguns via USPS. Long guns may go USPS.
3)Handguns MUST be shipped PRIORITY OVERNIGHT via UPS or FedEx only.(3rd party carrier) You must inform them that it is a firearm for the reasons already mentioned, and you need to show them a copy of the FFL to verify the address. This must also be done at a main hub/distribution center and not a, "store."
Not required but a good suggestion from a FedEx manager, do not put the word firearms on the package if you don't have to. Even if it's in the name. I sent a pistol to Fusion Firearms and she redacted the "Firearms" from the name. This is so it doesn't alert their, "trustworthy" employees what's in the box.
Hope that helps confirm things.
Ryan

Librarian
09-06-2012, 2:21 PM
See also http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Shipping_Firearms_Within_California

pumpkinshooter
09-06-2012, 3:10 PM
See also http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Shipping_Firearms_Within_California

Thanks for the link. I have been looking through there and cant find anything that says a pistol has to be on the roster to be shipped.

ROCKETW19
09-06-2012, 3:54 PM
I'll add, summarize, and confirm, having shipped many handguns.
1)Unless it's C&R, Olympic Pistol Exempted, or single action or SINGLE SHOT EXEMPTED, if it's not listed on the roster, it's not shipping, regardless of when it was made or as you described, 70's pre-roster.
2)Only FFL can ship handguns via USPS. Long guns may go USPS.
3)Handguns MUST be shipped PRIORITY OVERNIGHT via UPS or FedEx only.(3rd party carrier) You must inform them that it is a firearm for the reasons already mentioned, and you need to show them a copy of the FFL to verify the address. This must also be done at a main hub/distribution center and not a, "store."
Not required but a good suggestion from a FedEx manager, do not put the word firearms on the package if you don't have to. Even if it's in the name. I sent a pistol to Fusion Firearms and she redacted the "Firearms" from the name. This is so it doesn't alert their, "trustworthy" employees what's in the box.
Hope that helps confirm things.
Ryan

:D thanks.

one question why is it that some FFL say a person can not ship them a hand gun it has to come from another FFL and then some say it is fine.

ROCKETW19
09-06-2012, 3:57 PM
The information is there and is pretty clearly explained through the thread. The only two "oh I am sorry" posts (one of which was mine) was for C&R exceptions, and shipping methods. If you want a pamphlet of pre-digested info, read the wiki.

yes you are right and i am not trying to be a ---- but why even leave it ther just erase it. for not so smart people like me,lol

actually I am sorry none of my buisness not sure why I care,lol sorry

fiddletown
09-06-2012, 4:11 PM
...one question why is it that some FFL say a person can not ship them a hand gun it has to come from another FFL and then some say it is fine.It's legal for a private party to ship a handgun directly to an FFL for transfer. However, some FFLs as a matter of business policy will not accept a handgun, or long gun, for transfer from a private party. It's really up to the FFL, and I'm sure those that won't accept a gun for transfer from a private party have reason that are good enough for them.

dmmikhail
09-06-2012, 4:18 PM
What are the legalities of shipping a handgun to an ffl for a private party sale? Both parties are within CA but too far to make the drive. It is an older pistol, long before the roster.

if you ship the firearm, even if both parties are in Ca, it ceases to be a private party sale. the pistol must be on the roster and the transfer process is no different than purchasing a pistol outside of california.

Librarian
09-06-2012, 6:06 PM
Thanks for the link. I have been looking through there and cant find anything that says a pistol has to be on the roster to be shipped.

That's because on the Roster is not a requirement. Roster applies to selling, not shipping.

You want to read about the Roster, I think -- http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/The_Safe_Handgun_List and then http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Buying_and_selling_firearms_in_California

Shapes And Colors
09-06-2012, 6:30 PM
yes you are right and i am not trying to be a ---- but why even leave it ther just erase it. for not so smart people like me,lol

actually I am sorry none of my buisness not sure why I care,lol sorry

No worries, I just saw your post as an opportunity to post about the wiki just in case someone sees it down the road. :D

discoed
09-07-2012, 7:14 PM
Question since we are talking about shipping here. My father lives in another state and has a handgun that is registered under my name here in california. I left it with him when I visited him last time and he was going to give it back to me.

Instead of waiting for the next visit, can this handgun be shipped though UPS overnight straight to my house or does and FFL need to receive the shipment? Thanks for the help.

fiddletown
09-08-2012, 2:43 AM
...My father lives in another state and has a handgun that is registered under my name here in california. I left it with him when I visited him last time and he was going to give it back to me.

Instead of waiting for the next visit, can this handgun be shipped though UPS overnight straight to my house or does and FFL need to receive the shipment? ...Short answers:

That the pistol was registered to you is irrelevant.


It's in the possession of someone else now and so will be transferred to you. Since your father is a resident of one State, and you are a resident of another, federal law on interstate transfers will apply. There are no exceptions under federal for for transfers between relatives.


Under federal law, the handgun will need to be shipped by your father, or by an FFL on behalf of your father, to an FFL in California to handle the transfer to you. That transfer will be done with all the usual formalities (DROS, 4473, ten day wait, etc.).


If you just visited him and brought the pistol back you you, both of you would also be violating federal law.
See 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, ... to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ...any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State,...

And see 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(5) for any person ... to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person ...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides..;

Note that the transaction contemplated is a transfer of possession, i. e., one person currently in possession of the gun is transferring it to another person.

Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:...Transfer encompasses the sale and every other method, direct or indirect, of (1) disposing of property or an interest therein or possession thereof;...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:2. Law To make over the possession or legal title of; convey.

http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:Any and every method of removing something from one person or place to another; specifically, the handing over of possession or control of assets or title. ...

Ron-Solo
09-08-2012, 10:12 AM
Must be sure the buyer is 21+.

Pack it nice and tight and put a copy of your DL in the package. Then ship it off to the FFL..

For an added step of CYA. I always call the FFL to tell them a fire arm is coming and who its for on top of confirm the address via google and over the phone (so you know its not shipping to the kids front porch).. Call the buyer when its shipped out and when to expect it and that the FFL has verified.

Then just ship it off with insurance and confirm delivery/tracking.

Also you do not need to tell them what you are shipping. For all they know its machine parts.. Being no ammo solvents or the gun isn't loaded there is no harm to the carrier or workers. I know this for a fact with USPS but not 100% sure for UPS/FedEx. But im pretty sure the same rules apply they don't need to know contents as long as its not hazardous to their health or needing hazmat or special treatment.

WRONG! When shipping a firearm with a common carrier Federal law requires that you disclose it as a firearm. Handguns can only be shipped USPS by an FFL.
the carrier, such as FedEx or UPS can, by law, add additional requirements, such as next day shipping. Both UPS and FedEx require handguns to be shipped next day air.

If you claim they are machine parts and later have to make an insurance claim for a missing firearm, you are now committing insurance fraud, punishable as a felony.

The term "pretty sure" means that you don't really know.

Don't come in here and advocate the commission of a crime, especially a felony.

Librarian
09-08-2012, 10:41 AM
Short answers:

That the pistol was registered to you is irrelevant.


It's in the possession of someone else now and so will be transferred to you. Since your father is a resident of one State, and you are a resident of another, federal law on interstate transfers will apply. There are no exceptions under federal for for transfers between relatives.


Under federal law, the handgun will need to be shipped by your father, or by an FFL on behalf of your father, to an FFL in California to handle the transfer to you. That transfer will be done with all the usual formalities (DROS, 4473, ten day wait, etc.).


If you just visited him and brought the pistol back you you, both of you would also be violating federal law.
See 18 USC 922(a)(3), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

And see 18 USC 922(a)(5), which provides in pertinent part (emphasis added) as follows:

Note that the transaction contemplated is a transfer of possession, i. e., one person currently in possession of the gun is transferring it to another person.

Some definitions of "transfer" (emphasis added):

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/transfer:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/transferred:

http://law.yourdictionary.com/transfer:

To add just a bit:

What you seem to have said happened is You bought the gun

You took it out of state.

You let your father borrow it.

You went home, leaving the gun with your father.

That last part is the crux: there is no way to objectively distinguish that from an illegal interstate transfer. Up until you left the gun out of state with someone not the owner, all was fine.

discoed
09-08-2012, 6:40 PM
fiddletown and Librarian, thank you for your responses. This can be a can of worms. I'll have the gun sent to a local FFL and go from there. Thanks again for educating me. I learned a lot from your two post.

Safari829
09-09-2012, 4:02 PM
Recently shipped a pistol for some work. UPS employee required me to have the company I was sending the pistol to fax a copy of their FFL prior to accepting it for shipment. Same employee told me that UPS was probably going to cease accepting firearms for shipment. FWIW.